Mini 413 - Famous CATS - Over! Quit pussyfooting around!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Glork, are you thinking what I'm thinking?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I was actually pondering down another line of thought from your previous post.

I doubt the conjecture you've put forth in your most recent one is true.

Though I think it's probably safer to ask the mod.

Mod, do the bad guys win if they control the majority of the town as stated in the flavour
(In the town of Minto, everyone loves cats. Real, furry, breathing cats.
But a group of two-dimentional felines are trying to

get all of the real
cats out of the town in order to make animated/cartoon cats Minto's
favorite pet.

)

or if they kill a certain number of people as stated in the,

The "scum" win condition is to eliminate all the actual famous cats.

Or are the two conditions equivalent? (the first mentions real cats, the 2nd mentions famous cats.)

I'm not sure I understand the question, but it seems a bit specific.
~Bert

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

What things do you give? can I have it? whatever it is?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I received no "invention"

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I'm thinking we might as well massclaim and try to break the game/outguess the mod from this point.

we've got so many roles in the open that I have to believe the scum have enough of an idea of the game setup for the MC not to give them that much more.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

this inactivity is treason

Everyone who does not post in the next 24 hours and hasn't since the return will be prodded and replaced shortly afterwards.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

this inactivity is still treason against the state!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

your speculation about scum having provable abilities triggers a nine on my scumdar.


"

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

and my scumdar only goes up to 4 btw.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

because if the mafia don't, that's exactly what a mafioso would be saying.

duh.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

and also, we've already pretty much established where the mafia will hit, partial information reveal and total information reveal are not very different in that if the mafia know who's what, they also know who's NOT what.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Interesting Miztef, why would you say Glork is "pretty pro-town"?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

you sound frightfully like I do when i'm scum and leading town on wild goose chase.

<3

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Glork, why do you think Miztef is innocent?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Nice Gambit

Glork!

and we are at LyLo fyi.

I'm sure Glork realized it by now or he wouldn't have pulled this move on me.

Anyone feel like figuring out why we are actually at LyLo?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Mod

would you be so kind as to tell us how much money was found with the dead cat?

All that was found was a will indicating that he had inherited $450,000. No one has access to his bank account.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I knew it

Miztef=Glork's buddy

Nai is innocent.

I'll spell their plan right out for you guys.

I have several things that I am using to figure out the true intent behind their villainous plan.

1)The town is completely filled with power roles and I mean absolutely stuffed, I believe the scum have similar power roles to fight back against the town. I believe 1 of these abilities involves the message sending that Glork has been setting up from day 1. The 2nd involves some kind of kill prevention such as either a roleblock or a nightkill immunity that prevents TheoVig from making a kill on Glork.(This makes LOTS of sense because that's the only reason the scum would go after some random rich cat instead of an actual power role liike Theo, since it's much more likely that the cat who already is rich has any additional power behind it, how does it make sense to shoot that rather than the town vig? I posit that Glork convinced his scum group to leave theo alive SPECIFICALLY in order to have that argument of not possibly gambitting to get me killed with his fake cop investigation which he's been setting up since day 1)

2) Here's the sequence of events that Glorkscum and Co. hoped to unleash on us.

Lynch Pooky-> 8 alive, kill and block Theo=> 7 alive, quicklynch RIGHT away on Nai(who takes half the votes to lynch)=>6 alive=>kill at night=>5 alive 3 scum= Scum WIN.

Oh and also don't forget to throw in the fakeclaim from the buddy who says Glork=Undercover Kitty who can't possibly be scum to reinforce it.

THEY ARE GOING ALL OUT AFTER ME.

He's trying to package it as an obvious not gambit by trying to say that this is NOT endgame.

Here's the catch... it IS endgame and if we let him fool us here we lose.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

And yes Glork I am saying you acted like that day one ON PURPOSE.

IF YOU OPEN UP VIEW POSTS BY AND CHOOSE GLORK AND READ HIS DAY ONE MESSAGES.

I believe they are DESIGNED to create MAXIMUM confusion among the town and to provoke reactions. I highly highly believe that this is a setup con job,

Glork saying that he has a terrible history of fakeclaiming and showing us those games is a HORRIBLE excuse. He did not HAVE a message sneding role as scum to fakeclaim WITH in those games. Fakeclaiming is a LOT easier when the mod ships you a provable power role ALONG with your scum role, those examples are NOT valid because similar circumstances simply DONT apply.

It's like saying that because Lance Armstrong won the Tour De France that he could duplicate the feat in the Amazon River Basin with rowboat, the ROLES ARE FAR TOO DIFFERENT TO BE COMPARABLE. Glork's excuses are PURE crap.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

and just LOOK at the timing of Miztef's comment.

it absolutely REEKS of "holy shit, my scumpartner is under attack and our plan to fool the town and waltz away with a win have been completely broken in half by the fact that this town happens to be full of VERY smart people. time to throw in the "i have role information that says glork is innocent" card"

This is how you know scum are desperate and trying to push that last yard to victory

when they start making crap up off the top of their head.

Town Miztef would NEVER have picked that timing to make his claim.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Look guys

you have to realize

that the mafia

ACTIVELY CHOSE

to not kill carbon or primate

when they are pretty much asconfirmed as they can get

and choose to blow massive's brains out instead.

IF THIS IS NOT THE PICTURE OF A MAFIA ON THE BRINK OF VICTORY I HONESTLY DONT KNOW WHAT IT WOULD BE THEN.

THEY CHOSE TO

NOT

KILL CONFIRMED INNOCENTS OR GO AFTER THE DOC IN ORDER TO GET A GURANTEED NIGHTKILL ON SOMEONE WHO NOBODY WOULD THINK WOULD GET KILLED!!!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

God and look at the timing of Glork's guilty

he just HAPPENS to get 2 innocents and on the crucial day when the scum can sneak a win out with a mislynch he GETS THE GUILTY.

AS SUSPECTED


WHAT CRAP HE IS SO BLOWING SMOKE

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Just look for a second what type of power the town has.

and then think for a second that Glork is saying that IF THE SCUM HAPPEN TO BE COMPLETELY POWERLESS AND A STANDARD THREE PERSON GROUP THEN THIS IS NOT LYNCH OR LOSE AND IT IS SAFE TO LYNCH POOKY.

Just think for a second how likely it is that Bertrand armed the town to the bloody teeth with power and decided to make scum standard.

and then think, WHY WOULD GLORK USE SUCH AN OBVIOUSLY FLAWED ARGUMENT?

Answer is simple, he is trying to get away with one last mislynch.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

and seriously think

if a person is terrible at one thing(which glork claims is fakeclaiming as scum)

would that person decide to continue being horrible at it or WORK REALLY REALLY HARD ON DOING IT BLOODY SPECTACULARLY WELL THE NEXT TIME?

Now we all know what type of EFFORT glork puts into a mafia game and how bloody serious this game is to him(he won !@#$ing paragon of mafia hunters for chrissake)

Does it REALLY make any sense that Glork would choose to continue being absolutely horrid at fakeclaiming as scum OR would it make A LOT MORE SENSE THAT HE IS TRYING TO DO MUCH MUCH BETTER?!

I think the later applies here, THIS IS GLORK'S ATTEMPT TO GET MUCH MUCH BETTER AT FAKECLAIMING. it is an ABSOLUTE MASTERPIECE in the sense that he was able to get away with pushing for wrong lynches on the first 2 days and STILL come out firing on day 3 with a fake investigation and tons of crap from day 1 that he claims somehow proves his innocence.(honestly how does pretending to be confused prove your innocence? I can understand it from a green newb but from the Paragon of Mafia Hunters?)

Think for a second what Glork would be more likely to do, continue sucking at fakeclaiming or begin actually working on pulling off a REALLY good one.

You'll come to the same conclusion as me.

THIS

IS

HIS REALLY GOOD ONE.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

God DGB I would kiss you right now if it wasn't for the fact that we're on opposite sides of the world.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

and the sidekick spews out a ton of even more random stuff right on cue...

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I meant completely unbelievable stuff.

I know the "make up lots of junk so that they will believe you because noone makes up that much random junk" technique when I see it.

another mason pair? pssh! do you really expect us to believe this?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

you realize that if your role is valid then we know that there are FIVE masons:

1)Slippers
2)Socks
3)Buddy(Since you KNOW he's in the game, he's as good as a confirmed innocent since a bloody DOG cant possibly actually be an ANIMATED CAT)
4)Carbon Copy
5)Zindaras.

Add to the fact that there's Massive/Primate since Primate can confirm massive since massive is the one with huge amounts of money and primate can beconfirmed by being lynched.

do you realize just how horribly stacked the game would have to be for this claim to be true?

We could've just mass claimed and won on turn 1?

Do you honestly expect a setup that's been through thorough REVIEW to be gameable in this manner?

I certainly don't!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

there is absolutely no way I could possibly be guilty on any investigation in any manner shape or form.

Glork is scum.

Die Glork Die.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Dalton the Wonder Cat.

I can do ANYTHING.

universal replacement.

didn't replace anyone yet because there's nothing really juicy out there that I think would be useful.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

IF HALF OF THE BLOODY TOWN IS MASONED UP ACCORDING TO YOUR VISION OF HOW THINGS ARE THEN THE TOWN DOESNT NEED ANY BLOODY INVESTIGATIONS!!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Primate:
I investigated Thesp N1 (he confirmed that the answers in the dayscene were his). Thesp was not evil.
I investigated DP/Skruffs N2 (Skruffs has confirmed that he recieved a message from him, and that DP's response was in the dayscene). DP/Skruffs was not evil.
I investigated Pooky last night; the reply in the dayscene is his. I don't know if Pooky will confirm this or not, but that's what I did. Pooky is evil.

Pooky -- Did you recieve the message which I sent you last night? Are those *YOUR* responses in the dayscene?

Of course they are

I have no direct effect on the dayscene. The letters found are my targets' own responses to the questions which I sent them.



Pooky's assumption that this alleged gambit involves roleblocking or unnightkillability holds no water. However, it cannot be disproven... it's an incredibly convenient "explanation" as to "Glorkscum's plan," and it's really the only thing that Pooky (whether scum or town) can possibly give.

And you want us to believe scum have no such abilities against an absolutely loaded town, which is more believable Glork? honestly?

If there are any other regular cops out there,

NOW

is the time to be coming out and counterclaiming me. Go ahead. I dare you. Pooky? Are you going to try to counterclaim me at this point?

I already claimed wiseguy...

Pooky, explain

how

and

why

you feel that my messages from D1 were designed to "create maximum confusion." Just yelling it in all-caps is not going to convince anybody of anything.

Right because questioning the difference between famous versus non famous real cats isn't confusing at all

You claim that "town Miztef" would never reveal his investigation at this time. When would you suggest that "town Miztef" reveal his investigation result?

Beginning of Day, basically ASAP, it's a one shot ability, why wouldn't you reveal right away?

Pooky's claim that "killing massive instead of Primate or Carbon Copy" makes no sense... is horribly flawed. As Primate said, Massive was practically confirmed as an unlynchable innocent, and he could have kept on feeding Primate new lives. I think that made the

most

sense as a kill choice, since it minimized the ability of prove pro-town players to continue to live.

how does Primate living matter in endgame? he's less confirmed because he could still be scum giving cash to look innocent

And all the while, Pooky is spewing shit like "if this isn't the image of scum on the brink of victory, I don't know what is.

Pooky, cut the rhetoric. You're not going to savvy-talk your way out of anything. Provide hard evidence to support your wild theories, or it will come down to one player's word against another. And, given that I have a proven message-sending ability and no apparent counterclaim to my Cop role, along with a wiki'd

actual Famous Cat

as my rolename, I think that evidence is on my side right now.

Cuz your theories aren't wild at all? look at the three reasons you've given for the hyposituation. complete crap. You won't fakeclaim well because you haven't fakeclaimed well as scum in the past? how the hell does that even make sense? Proven message sending ability means NOTHING in a game like this

DGB's theory about Glork/Nai/Miztef being the scumgroup holds

ZERO

ground, because

if Nai were scum, then quicklynching him tomorrow would just be lynching a scumbag -- which would not win us the game.

I'm obviously not agreeing with the DGB theory

Pooky, please claim your rolename, any/all abilities you have had during the game, when you have had them and used them, which players you have used them on, and what results (if applicable) came from your use-of-abilities. Do so immediately, as your very next post, before you say anything else. I find it very surprising that, for somebody who has a guilty result claimed against you, you're just yelling about how I must be scum and not even trying to actually defend yourself, your role, or your behavior. Do you really expect all of this "GLORK IS GAMBITING SCUM" shouting to actually convince anybody (other than possibly DGB) that you're right and I'm wrong?

Again I already did

EDIT: Okay, so Pooky has claimed since I began my response. In spite of the fact that NaiTown implies we are at potential LyLo, you have chosen not to replace anybody so far. Why not? You say you're waiting for a "juicy" ability, but what would it matter if you were KILLED or ENDGAMED

before you ever got to take a player's ability

?
Can you give us any more flavor than "doing ANYTHING"? According to Wikipedia, Dalton was the author of "My Litter Box is Dirty," and a television host. How does this translate into the ability to do ANYTHING?

ok wiseguy, which player would you have replaced? what looks useful in that graveyard? I'm the wondercat, that means I can do anything that needs to be done

Also, I believe that this means everyone has claimed. Pooky, are you insinuating that in a game where (according to you) scum have provable powers, the town has ZERO method-of-investigation to discern these powers other than a blind investigation and an Inventor's investigation (courtesy of DGB) which may not even fall into the town's hands? How do you feel this would affect the balance of the game?

Again if we're speculating on setup balance, I don't think a setup where according to you had MASONED townies in everything but name taking up 7 out of 13 slots is in any way balanced, heck WHY WOULD THE TOWN NEED INVESTIGATIVE POWERS WHEN THEY CAN CONFIRM THE INNOCENCE OF MORE THAN HALF OF THEIR PLAYERS ON DAY ONE? WHAT THE HECK IS THE POINT OF HAVING A COP?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

no when half the masons are MASONED WITH THEMSELVES.

If you're saying there are bastard masons, then it would have to be Miztef/Thesp since the other masons are clearly iinapplicable.

If its miztef/thesp then Thesp can't be it since he's dead

which leaves Miztef

the guy who claimed an innocent investigation on you.

congrats you fingered you scumpartner.

Otherwise the setup is rigged against the scum and would never have passed any type of review.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

yes i have the option of replacing the dead.

and Glork. THAT IS MY BLOODY POINT THAT IS WHY A COP MAKES NO SENSE IN THIS SETUP. IF THERE IS A COP THEN THE MASONPAIR STRATEGY PRETTY MUCH FORCES A TOWN WIN.

IF THE TOWN HAS A COP THEN THEY DONT NEED TO PROVE MASONS BY LYNCHING.

THE ONLY WAY THIS SETUP MAKES ANY SENSE BALANCE WISE IS IF THERE IS NO COP TO PROVE MASONHOOD WITH IN A WAY THAT IS NOT LYNCH.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I'm the "Wonder Cat" this means I can do anything. Whatever the town needs I can do. Because of this I take over someone's job for them after they go down.(Honestly the idea of a cat that works for the police sending notes to people with questions on them is much much worse in terms of flavor than what I have)

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

In fact what I want to know is why you chose to push for CC's lynch when you could've TESTED HIS GUILT/INNOCENCE with a nightchoice that could've potentially saved the lives of TWO townies.

What makes NO SENSE to me is why a

COP

would push for a lynch of a Mason when the cop KNOWS he can investigate for guilt later.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

wait so if you're saying 2 masons act incredibly scummy, the protown play is to LYNCH one of them day one INSTEAD of investigate on night one?(This is incredibly shoddy logic, lynching a claimed mason is NEVER a slam dunk when an investigative option is available)

It is just incredilby stupid to lynch a claimed mason on day 1, if they are actually scum, the cop will find them and the game will be a slam dunk win for the town since 2 scum go down right away after cop reveals investigation. It DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THOSE TWO MASONS ARE DOING, AS SOON AS THEY CLAIM MASON THEY SHOULD BECOME COMPLETELY UNTOUCHABLE AT SUCH AN EARLY STAGE IN THE GAME.

What is thin about my theory Nai?

I didn't say that Glork was setting up this SPECIFIC thing since day 1, my point was that Glork had been setting up for a Lepton Gambit with his Messenger role since day 1, it just HAPPENS that LyLo is happening today, if your role hadn't existed, he'd be pulling the same stunt tommorrow.

Don't you think it's just a little bit of a coincidence that our "cop" happens to get innocents the previous days and just happens to hit his "guilty" exactly on LyLo?

Oh and on the nightkill thing, Massive IS less confirmed than Carbon Copy and Primate is an obvious nonfactor since his power is worthless in the endgame anyway.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Well, Skruffs... yes, I'm fishing.

I am confident that there is no Mafia Roleblocker or Mafia Redirector. I think that they would have just chosen to screw with my night action if there were one.

Look at this from our point of view, does this setup make any bloody sense if the mafia were completely toothless and had no way of screwing with us in the endgame?

If you or Carbon Copy can kill, then we have two possible courses of action:
1) Lynch Pooky. If he is town, Theo vigges Glork and Skruffs/CC vigges Miztef. We would both necessarily be scum, given that I would've lied about my investigation, and Miztef would have lied about me being Fred/Innocent.
2) Lynch

ME

today. Once I turn up as a Cop, then Pooky could be vigged by Theo, and DGB could be vigged by you/CC. We would avoid the insta-loss, unless DGB is not actually scum. And the way she's sided with Pooky, it's pretty obviously balls-to-the-wall that they're trying to push for a mislynch/victory against me. But if we can foil their plan by going two-for-one, I think we're in good shape, unless my math is horribly wrong or DGB is completely terrible at this game.

Ok then Glork, tell me WHY mizteftown would choose to withhold a ONE SHOT INVESTIGATION UNTIL AFTER YOU COME UNDER FIRE.

(Of course, now that I think about it, this also fails if Skruffs is the Godfather and simply lies to us, so I'm not even confident that I'd trust a response coming from him -- really, I want to hear from Carbon Copy.)



Anyway, the idea is that if,

even in the event of a mislynch

, we can set up for *AT LEAST* one scumbag to die via vigging, then we are *NOT* in LyLo, and we can TEST my claim (to an extent... I suppose it's possible that Pooky and I could both be gambiting scum) by simply lynching either one of us. Now obviously, I would suggest Pooky in this case (claimed Cop versus claimed Replacement, and one of us must be scum)... but that's really up to the rest of the town to decide.

Again, I can see the only reason for you to be gambitting like this is if you had some way around our vig or if our vig was actually a scumbuddy of yours and I honestly don't see how it is unlikely that a town this powerful is up against scum that are so completely powerless to stop them

It is just incredilby stupid to lynch a claimed mason on day 1, if they are actually scum, the cop will find them and the game will be a slam dunk win for the town since 2 scum go down right away after cop reveals investigation. It DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THOSE TWO MASONS ARE DOING, AS SOON AS THEY CLAIM MASON THEY SHOULD BECOME COMPLETELY UNTOUCHABLE AT SUCH AN EARLY STAGE IN THE GAME. [/qoute]

If you believe this to be true, why didn't you

SAY

anything on Day One?

I REPLACED into the game, by the time I had finished rereading everything you guys had already lynched Zindaras

Don't you think it's just a little bit of a coincidence that our "cop" happens to get innocents the previous days and just happens to hit his "guilty" exactly on LyLo?

This is a ridculous insinuation. The odds of me getting a guilty the first night were, assuming 3 scum, 3/12. The odds of me getting a guilty the second night were slightly better than 3/11 (for a non-random investigation). The odds of me getting a guilty last night would have been significantly better than 3/8.

3/4*7/11*3/8 is 63/352 which is almost as bad as 1 in 6. I'm just saying its suspicious that this just happens to be the string of events that gives you your "guilty" on the LyLo day. I'm not saying its HORRIBLY unlikely. I'm just saying it's a bit of a coincidence

Are you saying that statistically speaking, getting Innocent, Innocent, Guilty is an anomoly? A coincidence? Are you saying that after two day/night cycles of investigations, lynchings, and

observations of behavior

, it's mere chance that a Cop might hit a guilty on the third time around?

I never said anomaly, I said suspicious. I hold you to a better standard than 1 in 3 mr. paragon

Because if you are, you're either an idiot or you're being deliberately misleading. And I know, sir, that you are not an idiot.

Oh and on the nightkill thing, Massive IS less confirmed than Carbon Copy and Primate is an obvious nonfactor since his power is worthless in the endgame anyway.

Now Pooky's trying to have his cake *AND* eat it, too. Now he is trying to discredit the validity/innocence of an effective mason-pair, whereas earlier he was claiming that having several mason-pairs was broken in favor of the town (which would only be the case if they could be confirmed innocent).
Primate (town) vouched for certainty that Massive was town. This is known. Massive cannot get much more "confirmed" than that. I'll grant you that Massive may have been "less confirmed" than CC if you compare like 98% to 100%, but that's an insignificant difference. Again, you're trying to misrepresent the facts to suit your own purposes.

It's a technicality sure but it is still valid. More importantly DO YOU DENY THAT A COP WHO HAS MESSAGE SENDING ABILITY TO CONFIRM HIM IN A SETUP WITH seven Pseudomasons who can be cleared together is LUDICIROUSLY overpowered for the town? If you do deny that this is ludicriously overpowered for the town, then TELL ME HOW MAFIA WILL SURVIVE DAY ONE MASSCLAIM! Because there is NO WAY this setup could be so imbalanced and still pass review

Bolded in above quote is my response to Glork.

Here is my response to Nai.

Yes it may seem that some of the things I have said are random and must be true, but I know this must be so

Here are the possible mafia abilities that could turn what Glork is saying as a testable lynch into not an actually testable one:

1)Theo is lying scumbag and not vigilante
2)Scum have a roleblocker
3)Scum have a doctor
4)Glork is an unnightkillable scum
5)Scum have some kind of Day ending mechanism
6) Scum have a one shot daykill
7) Scum have some kind of redirector that can change the targetting of the vigilante
8) Scum have a bus driver that can swap Glork and another player so that the nightkill hits the other player
9) We are facing a 4 player scumgroup

Any of the above are perfectly valid reasons for why Glork is gambitting and why Theo wont be able to retal kill glork for the mislynch on me. It is simply inexplicable to me that the scumteam we are facing could be entirely powerless and be unable to prevent the kill because I KNOW I AM PROTOWN AND GLORKS MOVE DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME IF HE CANT PREVENT HIMSELF FROM BEING VIGGED THE NIGHT AFTER.

But you do NOT have the same information as I do that I am protown.

That is why I am asking you to CONSIDER for a second what type of power the town has.

SUPPOSEDLY THE TOWN HAS SEVEN PSEUDO MASONS WHO CAN BACK EACH OTHER UP.

IF YOU BELIEVE GLORK THEN THE TOWN ALSO HAS A COP WHO CAN CONFIRM HIS ROLE BY BASICALLY HAVING HIS RESULTS POSTED IN THE THREAD.

Does this not seem just a little bit too overpowered? How DO the scum survive the massclaim day 1 with every1 backing each other up and a confirmable cop who can CLAIM WITHOUT BEING PUBLIC ABOUT IT BY SIMPLY HAVING IT STATED IN THE NIGHTMESSAGE HE SENDS OUT NOT COMPELTELY WIPE THE SCUM OUT? It simply is incomprehensible to me that the town could possibly have a COP who can confirm himself with that many mason pairs/triplets!! The scum have ZERO chance of winning after the day 1 massclaim and that simply is NOT a game, the likelihood of such a setup passing review is absolutely NILL.


Heck take out the cop, let's say you don't know if Glork is the cop, then look at the 7 players in masonpairs/triplets. Do you honestly believe the scum have none of the nine possible abilities I've listed above that may let them pretty much smash the town completely? Do you think that a setup with such toothless scum against such a loaded town would pass setup review?

If you do I honestly have nothing more to say to you. I am NOT pulling random shit out of my ass in order to save myself. I am being VERY LOGICAL about this. IT SIMPLY DOES NOT MAKE SENSE AS A SETUP FOR THE SCUM TO HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE TO BEAT THE TOWN.

YOU CAN BURY YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND AND DECIDE TO BELIEVE THE SCUM HAVE NONE OF THE POSSIBLE ABILITIES THAT WOULD LET THEM GET AWAY WITH A LEPTON GAMBIT RIGHT NOW BUT THAT IS JUST WISHFUL THINKING AND YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED IN THE END!!!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Miztef

I know you're confused right now about supporting your scumbuddy.

But usually in a game of mafia

when the "cop" claims a "guilty" on a player

and you have an investigation that confirms that the cop is a cop

then you usually are voting with the cop on that player.

But you're clearly confused about how much you're supposed to support your scumpartner.

which is why you waited so long.

btw it's not very convincing at all...

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Nai
I believe you're town because you'd need ot be for the scum to be pulling this shit off.

So I'll try to be very very clear with you.

1) Are you honestly saying its more likely given the power level of the claimed town that the scum are completely toothless? Yes my theory relies on the scum having some kind of power, but you do realize that this setup would be HORRIBLY UNBALANCED AND NEVER WOULD HAVE PASSED ANY REVIEW IF THE SCUM DIDNT HAVE SUCH ANY POWER BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE COMPLETELY WIPED OUT BY THE TOWN?

Yes my theory relies on the scum having power, but given the power level of the town do you honestly expect scum to not have power?


2) I was NOT contesting Miztef's claim of innocent result on Glork but the TIMING of the claim. IF YOU ARE A ONE SHOT COP YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY ZERO FUCKING INCENTIVE TO WAIT TO GIVE OUT YOUR INFORMATION BECAUSE THERE IS NO POINT!! IT IS A ONE SHOT ABILITY ITS NOT LIKE YOU NEED OT HIDE FROM THE SCUM IN CASE THEY SHOOT YOU TO PREVENT A FURTHER INVESTIGATION!!! HE SHOULD HAVE CLAIMED FIRST THING IN THE MORNING RIGHT AWAY. INSTEAD HE CLAIMS THIS INVESTIGATION RIGHT AFTER ALL HELL BREAKS LOSE AND GLORK COMES UNDER MASSIVE ATTACK.

He's also saying that it was his first oppurtunity, I think it's crap, but if you want to believe him, it's your loss.

3)
I know this to be true BECAUSE MY ROLE PM SAYS I AM PROTOWN AND THE ONLY REASON GLORK WOULD GO AFTER ME LIKE THIS IS IF HE WAS SCUM AND HAD SOME WAY TO COVER HIS ASS AND FORCE A WIN AFTER THE MISLYNCH I ALREADY !@#$ING EXPLAINED IT READ MY !@#$ING POST.

4) OCCAMS RAZOR? HAVE YOU SEEN THE GAME SETUP THATS BEEN REVEALED SO FAR? DOES ANYTHIGN ABOUT THIS GAME SEEM SIMPLE TO YOU ? ARE YOU !@#$ING KIDDING ME!?!?

5) It isn't a misrepresentation, according to Miztef he was masons with Thesp who could confirm him and Miztef could confirm Buddy, that's 3 then Carbon is Masoned with Himself. And Primate knows he needs money and chances are whoever is giving him money aint scum cuz a acartoon having money makes no sense and a scum would not give money to a protown role in the first bloody place so that's 7.

6) How are they NOT that powerful? here's a hypothetical situation: they all claim day 1

HOW DO YOU BEAT THAT AS SCUM?

7) right because the scum would SO RATHER USE THEIR ABILITY RIGHT AWAY INSTEAD OF SAVING IT FOR THE ENDGAME WHERE IT WOULD HAVE MAXIMUM EFFECT YOU MAKE SO MUCH SENSE.

i want ot honestly kick you

did you even read my post?

DONT !@#$ING TELL ME THAT I NEED RANDOM THINGS TO HAPPEN

WHAT I ACTUALLY NEED IS ONE THING TO BE TRUE

THE SETUP IS BALANCED

THAT IS THE ONLY THING I NEED TO BE TRUE

GIVEN THAT THIS WAS MADE BY A HUMAN BEING AND ALSO REVIEWED AND PASSED BY ANOTHER HUMAN BEING I HONESTLY DONT !@#$ING KNOW HOW THE !@#$ YOU CAN DECIDE TO SAY THAT THE SETUP BEING BALANCED IS A "RANDOM THING"

IF YOU THINK I AM BLOWING SMOKE OUT OF MY ASS LIKE CRAZY THEN STOP

STOP
STOP
STOP

Just think right now what the setup would be if Miztef/Glork are telling the Truth and I am actually Scum.

3 Masons in Thesp/Miztef/Buddy
2 Masons in Carbon/Zind
2 Masons in Primate/Massive.
Message from Glork that gives 1 innocent.

Massclaim Day 1. Masons get paired

What do scum do?

GIVE ME ONE WAY THEY COULD POSSIBLY AVOID LOSING WITHOUT HAVING SOME TYPE OF INCREDIBLE POWER THAT YOU ARE DENYING THAT THEY WOULD HAVE.

If they can't win then it isn't a BALANCED SETUP.

If it isn't a BALANCED SETUP then it ISNT THE SETUP WE ARE PLAYING WITH BECAUSE IT WOULD NOT HAVE PASSED SETUP REVIEW

THIS LEADS TO A CONTRADICTION WHICH CAN ONLY MEAN THAT GLORK/MIZTEF ARE LYING THROUGH THEIR BLOODY TEETH.

I CANT FATHOM WHY ANY PROTOWN PLAYER WOULD BE THINKING OF LYNCHING ME

I AM ABSOLUTELY FURIOUS

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Wow

I don't think I've ever been more angry except for maybe MAD Mafia.

It's the exact same town goes crazy lynches pooky despite MASSIVE LOGICAL DEFICIENCIES IN THE LYNCH and then loses thing happening all over again.

Stop using the 'this couldn't pass review' excuse! It doesn't NEED to pass review, first of all. I've had games just done without review. Don't ask like a review is end-all be-all.

No, I already said, I don't think that they're toothless. But I don't think that they're as powerful as you claim.

Ok then point me to a SINGLE THEMED MINI GAME(on this site) WHERE TOWN CAN AUTOWIN AFTER A MASSCLAIM ON DAY ONE.

It's not RANDOM to assume that the setup IS BALANCED IN THE SENSE THAT THE SCUM AREN'T COMPLETELY WIPED OUT BY A MASSCLAIM.

It was his first post of the day. Are you saying he was lurking for no reason?

Yes, it absolutely reeks of scum waiting to see which way the wind would turn before making his move. If he actually did make such an investigation why didn't he vote me on his first post?

This whole section relies on me believing you are protown. If I don't believe you, there's no point in you continuing to say "My role PM says I'm protown." I have no way of checking to see what your PM says, so there's no point continuing to say it. It means nothing to me. Sto using it

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO ASKED ME HOW I KNEW. I !@@#$ING ANSWERED YOU QUESTION. DONT TELL ME TO STOP USING SOMETHING WHEN THE ONLY REASON I DID WAS BECAUSE YOU !@#$ING ASKED ME HOW I KNEW.

The game doesn't need to be simple for Occam's Razor to apply. The principle applies to the SOLUTION, not to the problem.

Except the Solution would also directly indicate that this game is something that is imbalanced against the scum completely and which never would've passed a review which then indicates that it couldn't possibly be the setup we are playing so that's a contradiction.

Unles I'm missing something, Miztef could NOT confirm Buddy. He wanted buddy to DIE. That's not the action of a mason group. Get your facts straight.

Wow, you honestly don't get basic strategy 101? MIZTEF KNEW "BUDDY" WAS IN THE GAME, MIZTEF KNEW BUDDY ISN"T A CARTOON CAT BUT A REAL DOG. THUS MIZTEF KNOWS BUDDY=/=SCUM AND ALL MIZTEF HAS TO DO TO "MASON" BUDDY IS TO SAY "HEY I KNOW BUDDY IS IN THE GAME AND PROTOWN CAN SOMEONE CLAIM HIM PLEASE, if scum claim buddy they get counterclaimed and lynched so they get buddy in the masonry"

OR EVEN MORE ADVANCED STRATEGY MIZTEF COULD SAY "I KNOW THERE IS A REAL DOG IN THE GAME AND THAT HE IS INNOCENT THAT DOG SHOULD CLAIM TO FORM AN OPEN MASONRY WITH ME THEN BUDDY CLAIMS AND CLAIMS HIS NAME SO MIZTEF CONFIRMS THE NAME AND THEN WHAMMO a 3 way masonry is formed.

I'm using Masonry very losely right now as a term that means "2 or more people who can confirm the innocence of each other"

when I said 7 players were masoned I mean these 7 "players" have the ability to confirm each others innocence which menas that the guilt of one would implicate hte other directly.

Scum can't afford to come out like this because to fake claim mason means that getting caught = 2 scum dead.

With 7 out of 13 "players" confirming each other. It would be absolutely clockwork to simply lynch everyone who isnt a mason while a cop scans everybody else.

There's no way for Primate to know that Massive is town. There's no way for Massive to know that Primate is town. Primate only knew that the person he was sending messages to (remember, he didn't even know it was massive, just an investor) had money, and Massive only knew he was answering someone. Read the day, get the facts, and stop making it up.

I have read the day. I have put a massive amount of thought into this game, probably more than anyone else, if you don't understand something I've said, trying thinking about it a little more. Yes Primate doesn't know if Massive is scum or not according to his role, but given that there are cats who have inherited large fortunes and a cartoon cat isn't "rich" because it isn''t "real" and thus can't have "real" money it isn't a stretch to say that he knows his investor is indeed rich up the ass and actually real. He can ID massive simply by openly claiming in the thread and confirm at night, scum can't fake it because they'd totally screw up in the night exchange.

As Glork said: Would you really believe all that claimed day 1? I think not.

No I wouldnt but I sure would get the cop to investigate them one by one while sweeping the rest of the town with lynches. and that sir is GG scum.

Tell me how you would defend against such a massclaim followed up by a lynching the minority along with a one by one investigation of the masons which will clear them in 3 days in worst case scenario and 2 days if the cop had investigated any one of the 7 in the first day 0

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Ok Nai

Since we're going to do strategy lets go

7 Masons 6 Non Masons

Town lynches non Mason Cop investigates 1 mason group scum kills a mason.

-> 6 Masons 5 Non Masons.

At this point if cop investigated diff group from scum kill then that's 2 mason groups cleared. And only one group left to clear. If they hit the same group(1/3 chance)

then we are at

1-2 confirmed Masons 4-5 nonconfirmed masons and 5 nonmasons.

Town lynches another nonmason

scum kills the other cleared mason and cop finds another mason group innocent.

we are now at 4 nonmasons and 3 confirmed masons and 2 nonconfirmed ones(the last group).(keep in mind im assuming all mislynches in the nonmason region)

lynch in the nonmason region followed by another mason biting the dust and the last group is confirmed.

-=>3 nonmasons and 4 confirmed masons.

Good game scum lose even if town mislynched all 3 times.

Confirming Masons by "lynching" them however is quite idiotic and kinda voids this slam dunk win for the town i'll agree with you. Note that I'm using the worst case scenario imaginable(that the cop who investigates on n0 not only misses one of the 7 masons but also happens to investigate the same group as the one the scum kill)

Oh yea and I'm also not counting the fact that the nonmason lynches will hit scum higher prob since they wouldnt hit the d0 investigative target or the cop who can confirm himself.

Oh yea and if the cop does somehow die after being outted that still leaves enough masons/investigated innocent to outweigh and smash the scum.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

addressing Glork now,

DGB isn't exactly the most careful of players. I can see her contradicting herself as town just as likely as if she was scum, I'm confident that she's town in this game because she's defending me after I'm coming under heavy attack from you and because I bloody know I am a protown role.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Primate backed Miztef where?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

and i didnt say both masons are scum...

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

ok nai

show me a single game other than this one where town lynched a claimed mason on day 1.

Hell show me a game other than this one where town has lynched a claimed mason who was ACTUALLY A MASON ON ANY DAY.

The reason towns dont lynch claimed masons is because IT CAN CONFIRM TWO PLAYERS OR THREE PLAYERS WITH ONE INVESTIGATION!(AND ALSO BECAUSE SCUM DONT FREAKING FAKECLAIM MASON ANYWAY, HECK SHOW ME ONE GAME WHERE SCUM FAKECLAIMED MASON ON THIS SITE AND GOT AWAY WITH IT) IF THE SCUM ARE SHOOTING INTO THE POWER ROLES LIKE THAT THEN THEY WILL GET VOTED OUT BY THE MASONS IN THE ENDGAME.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

sigh

omfg nai

you don't lynch claimed masons to learn the alignment of both BECAUSE SCUM DONT STICK THEIR HEADS OUT AND CLAIM TO BE MASONS.

To my knowledge there has not been a SINGLE successful mason claim by scum in the HISTORY of mafiascum, it SIMPLY CANT BE DONE BECAUSE PUTTING TWO SCUM LIVES ON THE LINE LIKE THAT WHEN THERE ARE POSSIBLE COPS POSSIBLE VIGS AND POSSIBLE SKS. IF ANY OF THEM HIT YOU THEN YOU HAVE JUST LOST 2/3 of your group. WIPING OUT 2/3 of a scum group when the town finds out which masonpair was completely full of crap would completely devastate the scum AND THATS WHY SCUM NEVER BLOODY GET AWAY WITH AN MASON CLAIM EARLY IN THE GAME.

I CHALLENGE ANYBODY HERE TO GIVE ME A SINGLE GAME WHERE SCUM HAS FAKECLAIMED MASON DAYONE AND GOTTEN AWAY WITH IT ON THIS SITE.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Oh and here's an example of what SHOULD happen if masons claim in day one.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

Lowell/Mikanoff acted scummy as hell day one, came under fire, claimed masons and pressure instantly vanished and niether of them were lynched.

glork also happens to be in that game.

note the huge difference between his behaviour there against day 1 mason claim and his behaviour here where pushes hard as hell for their lynch.

He was town in that game, guess what he is here!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

No I don't get you at all

What is the difference between CarbonCopy/Zindaras which is 1 player who is playing 2 characters and a mason group of 2 players?

I'd think there's an ADVANTAGE in that the CC/Zind thing can't have a scum mason because it makes no sense to give 1 player 2 alignments which makes it BETTER than the standard mason pair.

Could you tell me what the difference is? WHY does the role make more sense as a scum role?(note that if it does make more sense as a scum role its very existence would be void as lynching the alt who signed up specifically for this game would be an optimal play whenever such an alt is present which makes the creation of such a scum role entirely pointless since the bloody alt is going to be lynched on day one anyway)

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

No it is entirely different.

If Pooky says he's innocent and he is cleared by a cop investigation, the scum can wipe that out in 1 night by killing pooky

If You say Zindaras is innocent and you are cleared by a cop investigation it takes TWO nights for scum to wipe that out.

Also you are putting two LIVES on the line in terms of game lives.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

No it can't work, it has never worked and it never will work.

Consider what can happen when scum claim mason day 1:

One of them can get investigated
One of them can get nightkilled by an opposing group or SK

If either happens that's TWO scum down and the scumgroup is pretty much screwed from there on out.

and even IF they somehow luckily manage to avoid the 2 possibilities from SHEER LUCK then by the time the endgame rolls around people will begin asking why both of the masons are still alive.

It's a claim that has INCREDIBLE RISK with very little gain because NOBODY EXPECTS REAL MASONS TO LIVE TO ENDGAME ANYWAY AND YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHEN THE OCCASIONAL SK WILL TAKE A SHOT AT YOU.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

So do you have an example of where mafia fakeclaimed mason on day one and got away with it?

Heck do you even have an example of where mafia fakeclaimed mason on day one period?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Actually yes it does make me feel better to shout

this game makes me want to pull my hair out and bash my head into walls

typing in all caps relieves some of the tension I feel.

Have fun criticizing what form I type instead of actually rebuffing my logic with actual counterexamples. You can shout appeal to emotion all you want and avoid trying to counter my logic all day. You'll probably even get away with it because it's apparent that this town cares nothing for logic.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

What I find interesting about my detractors is that not one of them can produce a SINGLE GAME where mafia fakeclaimed masons on day one on this site.(let alone fakeclaimed masons and gotten away with it)

Have fun attacking my character and avoid addressing my logic.

This conversation has everything to do with the game, it deals with the strategical choices available to the town at the beginning of the game and it shows quite clearly that the town would have to have an absolutely ludicrious advantage for Glork's claimed investigation to be correct.

I find it absolutely hilarious that our claimed cop is now willing to lynch a person he doesn't have a "guilty" result on at LyLo.

Kinda makes you wonder if he has a guilty result enh?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Un1@#$ING believable, burden of proof on you?

How the hell am I supposed to back up the "Mafia never fakeclaim masons on day 1"?

Should I go through every game in the entire mafiascum library and wave the results in your face? even if I did would you take my word that they've never done such a move?

I can tell you that in my mafia playing history of three years, I have never once seen scum go for the fake mason claim on day one on this site and that includes games I haven't played in.

I even looked up a link of a different mini game where Glork decides NOT to lynch the day one mason claimers who looked scummy as hell.

Now you can go "I don't care if the mafia never bloody fakeclaim mason on day 1" even though there is EXTENSIVE history against it as well as the obvious logical reasons as to why they wouldn't do it. But if you're going to take that route, I demand you at least provide one sample of such behaviour. To choose to stick your head in the sand and attack me regardless of these facts would be nothing less than gross negiligence on your part.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

How does this not apply to this game?

When considering the possible setup of the game, if we could remove one setup from being likely to be in play, would we not be able to then see if some claims are necesarily true?

When considering whether Mafia ever fakeclaim masons on day one, if we could conclude definitively that they never do and never will would that not land Glork's play day 1 in the serious anti town category? How is that information not relevant to the game?

Ask yourself this, how is it that on this website there has not be a SINGLE fakeclaim of masons on day 1 yet Glork leapt to the conclusion that we were dealing with such a fakeclaim here?

You can yell to the bloody heavens that they are not "masonpairs" but two "lives"(and I term lives in the sense that it takes 2 nights for the mafia to kill them and also they control 2 votes which really is all that they need to really destroy the mafia in the endgame) who can confirm each other's innocence are in every way a masonpair.

Sure it doesn't fit exactly the definition laid out by the game rules but in terms of overall game strategy they function exactly the same way.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Yes DgB, dig your way to China and we can make sweet love under a starry night.

If I was scum, me and my scumgroup would quicklynch you, I would steal your role, we'd roleblock TheoVig shoot your cop and I'd use your vig ability on somebody and we'd win.(since that hasn't happened wouldn't it imply something about whether I'm in a scumgroup or not?)

But of course logic isn't important here. All that matters is that you have your mind set on me being scum and refuse to consider any other possibilities despite the massive amount of evidence against it.

guess i'm screwed along with the rest of this town.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

do you think i have a replacement ability?

do you think there is a scum roleblocker?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

My claim and his belief of it are 2 entirely separate things Nai, I'm trying to trap him in a contradiction now because either a) he believes i am a replacement scumbag in which case I can point out the fact that the scum haven't killed anything useful for me to replace or that we could quicklynch you FTW since I can replace you and then use your ability to win or b)he doesn't believe my replacement ability in which case I can bloody prove it by lynching you and using your investigation ability on someone who will confirm that they were approached in a dark alley tommorrow.

He dodged the question with a "possibly"

It's amazing how awesome you've beaten my "plan" consider this:

9 alive now, we lynch you -=> 8 alive I replace/vig scum NK/block vig -=> 6 alive, town lynches me =>5 alive scum NK=> 4 alive with 2 scum => scum win.

You really don't think about what you post before you post it do you?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

even though his role is a thread confirmed cop without restrictions and yours not only has incredible restrictions according to you but is all a liability in the endgame as scum can quicklynch you to win which effectively moves Lynch or Lose closer by a day.

That makes total sense...

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Then let's lynch Nai and let me prove myself. He's an endgame liability anyway and this way I'd have a chance to prove my role.

unvote

vote Nai

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I officially challenge Glork to put the lynching vote on Nai

No1 else do it! I want to see if this scumbag is willing to put his beliefs about this game on the line.

I'm sure you and I agree that one of us must be scum and we both agree that if the town lynches wrong here they lose since Nai is going to liability us in the next day, let's get rid of the liability and prove my ability.

Since you don't think I even have such an ability, what do you have to lose here?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

why would i inherit his restrictions? I can do what other cats can do, why the hell would that turn me into a criminal fugitive who's in trouble from the law?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

a false dichotomy? what the !@#$

i either HAVE A REPLACEMENT ABILITY OR I DONT HAVE A REPLACEMENT ABILITY THATS WHAT I SAID.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

My flavor is that because I can do anything, I can replace anyone and use the same abilities as they would be able to use.

There's a huge bloody difference between active night abilities and passive day liabilities and I honestly don't see why Dalton the bloody wonder cat would suddenly be in trouble with the law just because he started doing what you do.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

So tell me Nai, if you were actually protown and you actually thought I was scum.

WHY WOULD YOU TELL ME THAT?

specifically why would you tell me

Yes, you heard me right. If you replace me, if I die, you won't be able to use ANY of my abilities tonight.

Surely if you think I don't know this then you have no reason to tell me since such a surprise would absolutely ruin my supposed plans to defeat the town?

I'll reiterate this again, if protown Nai thought that I was anti town replacer moving to get him killed in order to jack his abilities and win the game he would NEVER TELL ME THAT I COULDNT USE HIS ABILITIES. Such a development would absolutely DEVASTATE the scum.

So tell me Nai, why DID you say something like this?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

No, probably not. However, you WOULD be in trouble with the other cats if you started throwing them against the wall to get information, or if you started running cats out of town. So, flavorfully, you WOULD get my restrictions.

But according to you I can't even do that....

Try being consistent please.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Not a single sentence in there really answers adequately why you'd decide to tell me that I wouldn't be able to use your role ability if I were to replace you tonight.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Oh yea, what haven't I answered?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

If i'm screwed it's because the town doesn't care for logic, only for big flashy claims like cop that sends messages.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Deep end? I've presented numerous logical reasons why you are very likely to be scum and have been summarily ignored by the rest of the town. You and your scumbuddies are probably laughing all the way to the bank on this win.

I think it's absolutely fabulous that you can ignore every point I raise against you because you know nobody is going to listen to logic anyway.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

mebbe she's deeply in love with me?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

im not sober right now

but if you guys lynch me

and then fail to kill glork in the next night

i expect every townie to be refreshing on this thread for the rest of the bloody night with

vote glork

on copy/paste ready to quicklynch him right away.

because making the mistake of lynching me today combined with letting the mafia run away with the win tommorrow

after I've made an incredibly good case against him based on solid logic that he hasn't even tried to rebuff

would be such horrible protown play

that I swear I will not play another game

with any of you who turn out to be town again

in my life.

God Nai

Mafia don't fakeclaim masons on day 1 is not a fucking theoretical discussion

it's a proven fact proven by years and years of gaming on this website.

and if you can't see it's relevance to this game

you are blind beyond belief

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Nai vig miztef and Theo vig glork

glork might be nightkill immune

you'll know my words are spoke with the best interest of the town in mind when i turn up town

if the vig kills fail you must be ready to quicklynch and vig again th enext night

quicklynch miztef after glork goes down so they dont ql nai

dont fuck this up more than you idjits already have

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

that's horrible reasoning

I'm almost recovered from being mad at this game and everyone in it.

I will put together a post that ties together all of my points as to why Glork is lying scumbag soon. I only ask that you give me the attention I deserve as this is basically LyLo and to do any less would be grossly negligent.

And Primate, this isn't about DGB versus Glork, this is about Glork versus me. It's my ass that's going to hang if Glork wins and it's the town's ass that's going to go straight down the tube with me.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Since you have the time to make meaningless throwaway posts Glork, can you answer this?

What is the difference between Zindaras/CarbonCopy and a standard mason group in terms of strategic value to the town?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I said in terms of strategic value to the town, not qualitative value to the town.

In terms of strategic value, the Zindaras/CC group is equivalent in every form except for the fact that they have mod confirmed innocence to each other since you can't tell him that one of his lives is a townie and the other is scum and have them coexist.

We can debate quality all day in terms of whether one player plays better than another.

I would however love to see you argue that Zindaras is worse than Mikanoff/Lowell in
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=, who claimed mason on day one as well and were summarily not lynched for it.

So tell me Glork, did you choose to not lynch Mika/Lowell in that game because you believed they provided better contribution to the thread than Zindaras would be able to?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

when it comes to common sense, how strong a role is shouldn't factor into your decision at lynch or lose because if you lynch wrong, it won't matter.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Look Skruffs, all I'm asking you is for you to give me a chance to state out my case and give Glork a chance to rebutt it. He's going to continue dodging if you let him know that all he has to do is shut up for me to get lynched.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

You realize Glork has decided he has no need to actually answer my questinoning of him because he knows he'll only look worse if we drag out actual logic and he is just sitting on me waiting for some townie to get bored and hammer me right now because his scumbag buddies are already on me and I'd get lynched by inertia alone.

Here's what the smart protown play would be skruffs, unvote me, tell him that if he continues to ignore me that he's going to get lynched, and actually follow through with the threat if he clams up as he's doing right now.

at least fucking put some pressure on him so that he HAS TO RESPOND TO MY ALLEGATIONS AGAINST HIM.

So far he's taken the case i've put against him and completely ignored it and that's TOTALLY FINE PLAY BECAUSE HE KNOWS IF HE IGNORES ME HE CAN GET ME LYNCHED ANYWAY.

Basically he doesn't need to defend himself because he knows he isn't going to get lynched.

Tell me Skruffs, how does it make sense that Fred the Undercover Kitty who's supposedly a cop would send a message that asks three questions to a player and those answers get published in the thread? How does that make sense at all?

And think for a second what if this were true, GO BACK AN READ THE FIRST 2 PAGES OF THE THREAD!! Glork HINTS at it blatantly that the message COULD BE INVESTIGATIVE. Cops do NOT drop hints like that because the odds of a doc reading into it that way and the chances of a mafia reading into it that way combined with the fact that he's fucking Glork means that he is literally putting a giant SHOOT ME SIGN ON TOP OF HIS HEAD.

Think for a second what you would do as a cop if you have details like that in the thread. Hinting at it that way is ASKING TO BE KILLED AT NIGHT.

That's why I'm saying he's blatantly been setting this crap up from day 1.

But of course he doesn't have to respond to me, he knows that as long as you guys keep your heads stuck firmly in the sand that he won't bloody need to actually rebuke my points against him, all he has to do is keep posting meaningless crap like

"lynch pooky please" that has no fucking logic and is a complete waste of fucking space.(why? because we fucking know he wants me lynched for obvious reasons and we've known for a long bloody time and it reveals no new information and contributes nothing to the thread other than pressuring and coercing others to bend to his whims)

CONSIDER FOR A SECOND WHEN YOU SAY SHIT LIKE "BUT GLORKS ROLE WOULD BE MORE USEFUL SO WE SHOULD LYNCH POOKY" and then stop and consider the fact that if Pooky is town and you lynch him today and he turns up innocent, that means Glork leptoned gambitted and the only reason he'd logically do such a bloody thing is IF HE COULD GET A WIN FROM THE FAKELYNCH, then it DOESNT MATTER HOW USEFUL POOKY'S ROLE WOULD'VE BEEN BECAUSE THE GAME IS FUCKING OVER.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

The letter in the street, any ideas?

Well, it seems evident that Thesp was responding to somebody's questions. Off-hand, I'd be very much inclined to guess that it's a pro-town ability. Could be investigative. Could be something else.

That's the breadcrumb i was referring to, pulled off page 2.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Oh and another thing, it's also somewhat stupid to suggest that a player has been investigated BECAUSE YOU DONT WANT MAFIA FUCKING KILLING THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN INVESTIGATED.

IMAGINE THAT YOU ARE A COP, AND THERE IS A PUBLIC REVEAL OF YOUR TARGET BUT PEOPLE ARENT REALLY SURE WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR TARGET ONLY THAT IT POSSIBLY COULD"VE ANSWERED SOME QUESTIONS.

WOULD YOU REALLY FUCKING SUGGEST THAT YOUR TARGET HAD POSSIBLY BEEN "INVESTIGATED"? WHY DONT YOU JUST PUT A GIANT KILL ME SIGN ON YOUR INVESTIGATED PERSON INSTEAD?!?! ITS THE SAME FUCKING THING./

HIS PLAY DOESNT FUCKING MAKE ANY SENSE

BUT YOU IDIOTS ARE GOING TO LYNCH ME INSTEAD

CONGRATS

THE TOWN PLAYERS ON MY LYNCH WIN DUMBEST UFCKING TOWN EVER

HAPPY NOW?!?!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Oh and just in case you haven't noticed

Glork is avoiding this game like it's the plague, while he's been posting in other games, he isn't posting to respond to me in this one.

Guess why?

He thinks that you will all just bury your heads in the sand and inertia lynch me and he doesn't have to do anything. He thinks that the less he says here, the better it'll be for him because he honestly has no answers to the logic that I'm laying out against him.

He's decided that actually debating the merits of the case against him would be unwise because people might actually pay attention to the case against him if he did. As long as he holds his nose in the air and says that my case is crap he hopes you will all just decide not to read what i've typed and not think for yourselves.

But think right now for a second what Glork has against me,

1 cop investigation

That is it

This cop investigation depends on his INNOCENCE

If you can't be sure of his innocence, then he has NOTHING AGAINST ME.

This is why cop investigations ARE ALMOST NEVER WORTH ANYTHING ON LYNCH OR LOSE DAY!

So basically what you have here in this situation is:
His cop investigation means:
If I'm innocent he's guilty
and if he's guilty I'm innocent.


That's ALL IT MEANS ON A LYNCH OR LOSE DAY, THERE IS NO FUTURE FOR YOU TO PUNISH HIM WITH THIS THING. IF HE GETS BY NOW THIS GAME IS OVER SO THE COP IS NO MORE LIKELY TO BE THE INNOCENT THAN THE CLAIMED GUILTY INVESTIGATION IS!! THIS IS BASIC MAFIA 101!!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

so nai

wanna tell me why a cop would hint towards his target so that his target gets pasted at night by the baddies?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

basically what i'm saying is this

I've pointed out many logical reasons why glork is not likely to be protown

I haven't seen you post a single one about why he is protown.

You can tell me what you think but WHY do you think it? Wanna give me a reason? Because I hate Pooky btw isn't a very good one.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Ok nai but what reason do you have to disbelieve me other than Glork's copclaim?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

and what the fuck do you mean the less and less you are convinced by me?!?!?!

YOU ARE FUCKING VOTING FOR MY LYNCH

THAT MEANS YOU DONT FUCKING BELIEVE ME AT ALL

HOW CAN I CONVINCE YOU LESS AND LESS WHEN YOUR LOT IS RIGHT NOW TO KILL ME?

MAKE SOME FUCKING SENSE PLEASE

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

AND ON TOP OF THAT

HOW ABOUT ACTUALLY REBUKING MY ARGUMENT FOR WHY GLORK IS SCUM SUCH AS

Hmm I see you've insulted me, but going down such a vein of thought would only result in insults back and forth and surely that wouldn't be productive, instead I'm going to respond to your logic that you've used in your post against Glork. You lay out that Glork is scum because of "A", however I can see another way that "A" could be interpreted such that Glork isn't scum, or I think your reasons are invalid because of "B"

IS IT REALLY SO MUCH TO ASK THAT ONE OF YOU PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPORTING GLORK AGAINST ME ACTUALLY TAKE THE TIME TO READ THE OBJECTIVE ARGUMENTS IVE LAID OUT AND ACTUALLY REBUKE THEM?

THATS HOW THE GAME OF MAFIA IS ACTUALLY SUPPOSED TO BE PLAYED BTW.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

The letter in the street, any ideas?

Well, it seems evident that Thesp was responding to somebody's questions. Off-hand, I'd be very much inclined to guess that it's a pro-town ability. Could be investigative. Could be something else.

That's the breadcrumb i was referring to, pulled off page 2.

Even though I quoted the breadcrumb for you in this post? Why bother remembering if it's been quoted for you on this page by me?

So let me get this straight, when I make posts that start with logic then descend into angry rants, you decided to skip the rational logic, read just the angry rant part and then rant back at me?

my how productive.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

counterclaimed cop? Miztef's claimed an investigative ability(one shot) you've had an investigative/vig like ability according to you, why would the town necesarily have a standard cop with message sending on top of that?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

You highly doubt the town would have no cop.

Yet Miztef's claimed a 1 shot investigation ability

and according to you, you also have an investigative ability.

Sorry you honestly make no sense sometimes.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Sorry but where is Glork's logical and consistent explanation for lynching Zindaras Day 1 when Zindaras claimed was is essentially a Mason role in terms of strategical use(by strategy I mean it takes 2 kills for the badguys to get rid of, they know each other to be protown and they have 1 vote each for a collective double vote) so basically a mason group except there's only 1 person playing both roles so in an endgame with 2 masons and 1 scum, the masons will have no trouble voting that scum out, which is the strategic advantage imparted by masons.

Also consider the fact that in the game that I did cite, Glork did not push for the lynch of the 2 masons who claimed day one after coming under suspicion, he was protown in that game. In this game, he does push for Zindaras's lynch. I raised this issue and he has never actually logically addressed the strategic difference in the two situations.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Nai, also I just want you to say this:

"I believe it is a viable scum strategy to fakeclaim Masons on Day 1 when they have no idea how many killing groups are in the game, how many investigative groups are in the game, and no real idea how they could survive to endgame in such a stance"

Or in short

"I believe it is a viable scum strategy to fakeclaim Masons on Day 1"

Or if you don't like how that sounds since you think Zind/CC aren't actually "masons":

"I believe it is a valid scum strategy for a scum with a doppelganger to claim and pretend they are innocent together on day 1 even though they have no idea if there are opposing scumgroups or any nightkills they have to worry about or how many cops would investigate them"

or how about

"I believe it is valid protown strategy to push for the lynch of 2 "lives" who have been tied together in a way such that the innocence of one implies with absolute certainty the innocence of the other and that such a strategy is far superior than simply investigating them at night"

Because that's what you would have to believe in order to believe right now that Glork is innocent.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Oh and on a completed unrelated note, I also want you to say something like this:

"I also think it is a completely valid strategy if you are a cop that sends messages with public reveal to hint at the investigative nature of your messages on day 1 in order to put at risk the life of yourself and your investigative target as such an action can help when you claim later even though it might jeopardize your immediate health and that of your investigated target"

Again, because you would have to believe something for you to believe that Glork is scum.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Even though I quoted the breadcrumb for you in this post? Why bother remembering if it's been quoted for you on this page by me?

So let me get this straight, when I make posts that start with logic then descend into angry rants, you decided to skip the rational logic, read just the angry rant part and then rant back at me?

my how productive.

Thank you for misrepresenting me. I read your actual posts. But when you start ranting angrily, I decide it's probably not worth my time to read through the insults and find your point. I'd rather wait until you rephrase, calmly.

Even though my logic has always been in the beginning and my insults are in the end? So how do you know my posts are full of insults if you don't actually read them? Do your eyes automatically wander to the bottom instead of the top?

And, again, that doesn't say his target. That just says it looks like an investigation, while breadcrumbing for a later role-claim. He had ALREADY targetted Thesp at that point. He wasn't talking about a future target.

Everyone knew Thesp had been targetted by some kind of message sender at that point, what they did not know is who targetted thesp or what implications the message could have, putting out as a suggestion that the message could be investigative in nature is a huge no-no because it puts a giant kill me sign on Thesp AND Glork because it suggests 1)Thesp has been investigated, Scum kinda like killing investigated innocents and 2)Glork knows more than he should about this message thing, he's even suggested investigative ability, maybe he's the cop? Scum might never have even thought of the idea that the first page answers might mean that the person has been investigated if you don't mention it. Pointing out an idea like that puts unnecesary risk on his shoulders and Thesp's shoulders and I don't think a rational thinking player would do something like that,

it shows that he's more concerned about getting his claim across and having it believed than the risk of having a scum catch on and kill him at night for it

That's exactly assbackwards in terms of what a cop's priorities ought to be but exactly correct for a scumbag who doesn't need to worry about other scum catching on and shooting him but does need to worry about having his fakeclaim believed by the town[/b]

counterclaimed cop? Miztef's claimed an investigative ability(one shot) you've had an investigative/vig like ability according to you, why would the town necesarily have a standard cop with message sending on top of that?

You must have this problem with reading, or perhaps I just missed something. Unless the latter is true, I was so sure Miztef's one-shot was a GIFT from someone else, while my own ability has a very tough drawback. Something I've said several times.

Miztef stated he received it as a result of the dead nemesis, even if it was a gift, having a gift giver who could give investigations is about as strong as an actual cop, if you look over previous minis, how many investigative roles do they usually contain? If you believe Glork's version of things, there'd be 3 investigative roles minimum as Miztef has a potential investigation, you have limited investigation abilities, and Glork would have unlimited investigative abilities that also happen to be thread confirmed, not to mention the fact that DGB could potentially give out investigative abilities, so tell me, how many minis have 3 or 4 investigative abilities as compared to minis that have 1 or even none?

Yet Miztef's claimed a 1 shot investigation ability

and according to you, you also have an investigative ability.

You like repeating yourself in consecutive posts, don't you? As I said: Miztef's was a gift he didn't start with (unless I missed something), and mine has a hefty drawback.

Actually I rephrased because I was concerned you'd blow off the first post

Also consider the fact that in the game that I did cite, Glork did not push for the lynch of the 2 masons who claimed day one after coming under suspicion, he was protown in that game. In this game, he does push for Zindaras's lynch. I raised this issue and he has never actually logically addressed the strategic difference in the two situations.

I would have pushed the Zindaras lynch as well, but that's just me.

Do you know how often masons have been lynched on day 1?

He actually HAS addressed the question, several times. You just keep on brushing off his answer.

Actually no, he hasn't actually come out and said something to the tune of that he believes the nighttime talk of Lowell/Mikanoff would be such a decisive advantage that makes it different from the path pursued vis-a-vis Zindaras

"I believe it is a viable scum strategy to fakeclaim Masons on Day 1"

I've said it already, in other words, so I'll say it again: I think it's a good strategy for scum to fakeclaim masons, since no one would ever believe scum would do it.

But on day one? When you have absolutely no idea if there is a serial killer out there who might not want you to live or if there are cops out there who will investigate you? Consider for a moment that in the endgame where there are 2 masons and a serial killer that the serial killer would always lose, or that in the endgame where there is 1 mason and 1 serial killer and 1 townie, the odds for the SK are much worse than 2 random townies and the SK since the mason is confirmed via his partner so he has one less lynch oppurtunity, if you look at the logic from the standpoint of the mafia, it is similar, why would Mafia or SKs let these 2 fake masons live to the endgame?(which is what they would have to do in order to make the gambit worth it since if one of them dies the other is revealed and good as dead) How can they possibly survive to endgame when they know that the town will begin asking questions if they don't drop dead b4 the game gets there AND they have no idea if there is an SK who will kill them at night and then reveal them for the liars they are to the town?

"I believe it is valid protown strategy to push for the lynch of 2 "lives" who have been tied together in a way such that the innocence of one implies with absolute certainty the innocence of the other and that such a strategy is far superior than simply investigating them at night"

I believe it's a valid protown strategy to lynch one half of a dual-lived role, which would reduce us to normal mafia numbers, and use the investigation on someone else.

Let's look at the difference then shall we? If the town makes the arrangement that the cop investigates one of the "masons" at random and reveals only if it is a guilty, then on the next day if the cop is not dead, the town will know for sure if the masons are legit or not since the cop either comes out or doesn't(a cop coming out to nail 2 scum is hardly a poor move), also the town lynches somebody else and finds out if they are guilty or innocent.

So at the end the town is at the point where they lynched 1 unknown and found guilt or innocent AND know the alignment of our "masons"

At the end of your strategy where the cop investigates elsewhere and the town lynches a mason, the town on day 2 does NOT know the alignment of an unknown(Only the cop does and he might die before he reveals his information) and the alignment of the remaining alive mason.

Would you really say that the situation for the town in the second example where they followed your strategy would be better than mine? I currently believe my strategy is superior because it gives the town more information to work with on the 2nd day. Not to mention any interactions gained when you look for that lynch on the first day.

"I also think it is a completely valid strategy if you are a cop that sends messages with public reveal to hint at the investigative nature of your messages on day 1 in order to put at risk the life of yourself and your investigative target as such an action can help when you claim later even though it might jeopardize your immediate health and that of your investigated target"

I think it's a completely valid strategy if you are a cop with a very odd restriction to breadcrumb your ability so that you can prove it exists later on in the game.

Especially when you NEVER told anyone who you were investigating, only revealed the results at a later point when it would help the game.

Yes, you never did tell explicitly, but the implications of your hint would be such that the mafia would be able to pick up on it and kill you for it. Why stick your neck out like that when it's clear that your loss would devastate the town? Should a cop be more concerned about his survival so that he does find more useful information or about whether the town believes him or not? How does 1 breadcrumb like that contribute in any meaningful way towards clearing such a cop? A scumbag who was planning to fakeclaim with his message sending role could just as easily have breadcrumbed the same clue! Heck if you are going to be breadcrumbing cop, why not encode it into a message that the scum couldn't break instead of putting it into the open like that and endangering your life and that of your target?

Italics are my responses to Nai's post.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

How does him breadcrumbing in any way "prove" his role? A mafia player with a message sending ability could just as easily breadcrumb with the intention of fakeclaiming cop later...

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Wait Nai, if scum can do the same thing, how does he doing it show he is town?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

1.) I don't think this town is overpowered, I think Glork/Miztef are lying through their teeth and the scum are about to waltz away with a win. I'm saying that if Glork was actually protown, then the town would indeed be horribly overpowered.

2.)Right, the word "fuck" is indeed a really powerful word, it shows just about the deepest level of anger a person could have at another person. I don't curse very often in my games. I used to sometimes when I got emotional about a game but I've gone a while from there. Usually it takes quite a bit to tick me off and even then I'm usually very civil and patient and willing to explain my logic and lay it out and defend it when necesary because the other person either doesn't understand or doesn't agree with it. That's how I believe the game of Mafia is meant to be played, I believe it's about the reasonable exchange of arguments followed up by reasonable debates on the arguments. I

love

this game, I will be brutally honest with you when I say I absolutely

love

this game to death. I absolutely enjoy debating the ins and outs of strategy and whether somebody is scum or not. I absolutely

love

this game and I am somewhat offended when a person does not care about this game. Sometimes I read games in these forums and I see games that are almost entirely randomly determined, people make mistakes, logic isn't used at all, lynches are either too fast or too slow based on the player pool and actual reasoning and debate don't happen and games get turned into a popularity contest of who is liked more or less. I feel geniune pain when I read games like that. That is how much I love this game. You can tell that I probably need to get out more or find a hobby that I don't need to be so emotionally invested in, I can tell you that you're probably right about that. Even as emotionally invested as I am in this game, I almost never use cursing, I've actually refrained from cursing several times this game. It's just very fustrating for me that I am pouring my guts out and pointing out obvious flaws with Glork's play so far and Nai shoots them down with comments like "not related to the actual game" or "It's a valid strategy for Mafia to fakeclaim masons Day 1". When I read CC/Zindara's posts on day one, I absolutely feel with every inch of my being that he is a protown player just by the way he has posted. Why would CC connect himself to Zindaras if he is actually a scum puppet and coming under fire? Even if he does avoid the day 1 lynch, he'd be a prime target for a possible SK and a definite target for the cop and the town will be suspicious as hell if he makes it anywhere near the endgame. That's why in my opinion I would bet 100 to 1 odds at that point in the game that Zindaras/CC is actually a protown role. I reasoned that because Glork knows better than to push for such a lynch when he is the COP and can figure out if they are scum or not in the night that he would keep them alive. I even cited a game where 2 players came under intense scrutiny day 1 and were absolutely absolved when they claimed masons. Glork was in that game, he did not push for their lynch after the mason claim, look at his behaviour in this game and compare the difference. When Nai says something like that this is absolutely not related to the game, I honestly weep in my soul for the future of this site if more players are like this. If you can figure out what the optimal town play is at a point in the past and see if a player who should know what the optimal play is at that point and then compare to see if he followed such a play, you can see if he is likely to be town or not. What the best play for the town is at such a point absolutely does have to do with the innocence or guilt of a player at that point. Why does Glork perform differently here than there? Zindaras/CC is in effect the same as a mason pair EXCEPT that he does not have two brains, that's the only difference, and the ability of a mason pair to discuss privately is not anywhere near the level of importance that is given to the fact that they will vote together and that they take 2 kills to take down. That's all Lowell/Mikanoff were good for in that game where they claimed mason and weren't lynched, they soaked up 2 nightkills so players like Glork could live to the endgame and catch scum because the scum knew they would not turn on each other in the endgame and would be confirmed innocents.

3. On my other point, think for a second what the point of breadcrumbing is, you want your breadcrumb to be unable to be seen by other players and for it to confirm yourself later. A breadcrumb such as,

Could be possible that such a message was sent by a scum role. On the other hand this role does have a history of being protown. Pretty sure our best option at this point is to keep our eyes open

innocous innnocent fluff post, doesn't really give anything away to the scum, however the first letter of each sentence spells out the word COP.

Not the best post I know but with some effort you could probably post something with those 3 letters starting the sentences such that the post would be less conspicious. The whole point of breadcrumbing is that scum can't read it and go "Hmm, he's got a point, maybe thesp did get investigated, let's kill him" or "Hmm Glork seems to know a bit too much about this role, maybe he's the cop, let's get him".

The last thing a cop should want to do is to draw attention to himself, especially since a scum could also have made the same breadcrumb in order to set up a later fakeclaim.

My point here is that not only is the breadcrumbing not that helpful since it doesn't definitively prove anything, it is also needlessly risky since it suggests to the scum not only that Thesp might have been investigated, but also that Glork might be the cop.

My point is that GlorkCop would not have breadcrumbed like that on day one because GlorkCop doesn't want to die on Night One. That post seems to be much more interested in setting up a breadcrumb to be used later as backing for a claim than it is for hiding the fact that the player is actually a cop. My point is that his priority list was not 1)Avoid nightkill 2) Breadcrumb Cop. That implies that he was not worried about a nightkill and such an action would make a lot more sense from a bulletproof scum than a cop.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

god i wasnt talking about you

i was talking about the lurkers

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Day 1 Fake Mason Claim is equivalent to the Day 1 Fakeclaim Zindaras pulled with CC because he TIED HIS LIFE TO THAT OF A PLAYER UNDER ATTACK ON DAY ONE. The reason I used the fact that people don't fakeclaim mason is because the 1 player 2 roles thing is a lot more rare and thus much less usable to a mafia group, they don't have the option to fakeclaim with an alt because most games don't have alts. However it is an equivalent action to fakeclaiming masons because you are putting another mafia "life" on the line to save one mafia "life" that doesn't happen because it will most definitely come back to bite you in the butt be it when the possible cop investigates or if the possible SK kills or if the town just wonders why you're alive at lynch or lose. The reason that

Fake claiming Masons on Day 1 is a valid strategy

is relevant to the game is because if it's not a good move to do that, then it's also not a good move to do what Zind/CC did if they were scum because the action is in effect the same thing. That is why I am saying that such an discussion is in every way relevant to this game.

No it is entirely not valid to assume anything on one setup based on some other setup, it's much more important to look at how the player has played. Can Zindaras expect CC and him to survive to the endgame without being investigated if he claimed on Day 1? If the answer is NO, then why would he decide to out himself and tie himself to CC? If you can show me a previous game with a "scum alt" where the scum puppeteer outted himself to claim that he was a mason with his alt on day one, then I will definitely withdraw my argument along these lines and concede that you are correct and that such a move is definitely a valid scum strategy. But until you can produce such a game or even tell me why such a move would make sense when it is entirely unreasonable to expect that CC/Zind would survive to endgame untouched by Cop or possible SK or the town I must humbly disagree with you on this point.

Why would town Glork have to breadcrumb? How does a breadcrumb make his role more or less likely if the scum message sender could have come up with the same idea and also breadcrumbed? You don't WANT people to pick up on something like that, that is the whole purpose of a breadcrumb, that people don't recognize its significance but you can go back later and point out that it actually meant something. I.E. that the first letters of each sentence spelled out "Cop". That is the whole point of breadcrumbing.

No it does mean it hurts us, just because a standard mini is 12 players and we have 13 that doesn't mean losing a protown role to go down to 12 does not hurt the town, if the 13 player game is balanced, there are powers added to scum to balance out the fact town is larger than usual. Losing a protown player absolutely does hurt the town no matter how much of an advantage the town has. It doesn't matter if the town starts with 19 players or even 30, lynching a protown player will absolutely hurt the town unless it gurantees beyond a shadow of a doubt that the scum will lose.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

It makes sense if he thinks it's possible you could be lying through your teeth about your role

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

He'd be questioning something that he doesn't think makes sense about your role because he might think in the back of his mind that you are lying through his teeth.

Why his vote is still on me I don't know

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I meant that if he still had doubts as to whether Glork is lying about his role, it wouldn't make sense for him to have his vote on me until such doubts are resolved. If he doesn't have doubts and questions for Glork, then his question makes no sense, if he does have doubts/questions, it makes no sense for him to put his vote on me until Glork resolves those questions/doubts as we are not in a deadline situation.

Did you honestly think I don't know what votes are for Nai?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

im so glad the scum get to sit with all their votes on me while the entire town sleeps through this and I get inertia lynched at some point in the game.

I'd be trying to save myself, but I've written so much and put so much effort into the game and the town won't even read what I've posted so honestly what point is there?

I highly suggest that if you are town and are going to end up lynching me without actually reading what I've written that you consider not playing mafia games anymore because it's just such a disservice to everyone on this site who actually tries for you to screw around and not actually even bother to read the posts they make. I don't know why you aren't putting in the necesary effort right now but please, do us all a favor and come back when you have the time and motivation to put in an effort that is deserving of your name.

And Nai, I really can't argue with you anymore because you just don't understand even the most basic elements of mafia strategy, the whole point of breadcrumbing is to minimize the chance of someone else picking up on it because odds are higher that scum will pick up on it since there are more scum than there are doctors who might pick up on it and protect you. The idea is to not let them find out while having something to point to later, and I throughly disagree with you that a cop NEEDS to breadcrumb his role like that in order to be believed.

A much BETTER way to breadcrumb would be to ask these 3 questions,

1)Are you scum?
2) Do you know I am an investigation role?
3) Do you know I am Glork?

Not only does this breadcrumb effectively put "Glork=Cop who is investigating you" directly into the head of the investigatee, you are almost absolutely certain that this information is NOT going to the scum because IF THE PERSON WHO IS RECEIVING THIS INFORMATION IS SCUM YOU CAN JUST CLAIM COP AND GET THEM LYNCHED RIGHT AWAY(And you will be believed because it doesn't make sense for scum to fakeclaim cop with a guilty on DAY ONE) if the target is innocent, then you have an innocent person who can BACK UP YOUR CLAIM AND KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING ON.

That's what protown Glork Cop/Messenger WOULD HAVE DONE.

What's instead happened is AntiGlork Messenger set up a bullshit roleclaim starting day one and openly hinted at the investigation in a sloppy move designed with confirming himself in mind rather than preserving his life and the life of his investigated innocent.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

ok Nai

1) I know they haven't read my arguments because they haven't actually rebuffed them or said they are bad and I am scum.

2) Your opinion on mafia strategy is absolutely awful, the whole point of breadcrumbing is to have something to point at later and NOT to be found out by the scum, I'm not going to argue this point anymore because it's really just us disagreeing and it really just angers me and I don't need to be angry about some game.

2a, tell me then why Glork's role HAS to breadcrumb while every other cop does NOT have to breadcrumb. Is his "forced" breadcrumb according to you an advantage or a disadvantage?

3. Nope it's not wifom at all BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH A SCUM MESSENGER CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING, A TOWN MESSENGER COP SHOULD STILL DO IT BECAUSE HE PUTS HIMSELF AT MUCH LOWER RISK OF BEING KILLED/GETTING HIS INVESTIGATIONS KILLED. It is completely advantageous to breadcrumb in that manner rather than publically because you put yourself at a much LOWER risk of being found out and killed by the mafia.

@Glork

That's only if you hit the Godfather, you really think the odds of hitting the Godfather with your ability is higher than scum reading your comment about breadcrumbing and thinking "hmm this guy sounds like he knows more than he should, he's probly the cop, let's whack him"

Also, if the SK does get investigated this way, there's no way he'd kill you at night because a COP THAT DOESNT DETECT SK IS NOT A THREAT TO THE SK, IN FACT YOU ARE AN ASSET TO HIM BECAUSE YOU WON'T LET HIM GET LYNCHED!!! THAT IS GOOD FOR THE SK AND HE WOULD KEEP YOU ALIVE!! IN FACT THAT'S ANOTHER REASON WHY YOU WOULD WANT TO BREADCRUMB MY WAY THAN YOUR WAY!!

Also if the Godfather does get hit by the investigation, he'd have to give up becoming a very likely innocent since he'd be killing you before you gave out the innocent result on him which is a trade-off for the mafia, not a slam dunk kill.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

not at the beginning of the game when he expects us to have a doctor, most minis have those.

Why does he need to do it to have a semblance of credibility? Are you saying all cops that don't breadcrumb have no credibility or specifically that all cops with messenger ability attached that don't breadcrumb have no credibility?

Lastly, why doesn't he just pretend to be a normal cop if it is such a disadvantage?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I have no idea what would happen if I tried to take over a Mason role, I think I can only take over in terms of being able to do role abilities, the whole turning into a clone thing I don't think is possible. I'll ask the mod.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I never said that.

Nai said that.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

because letting scum know I inherit your restrictions is such an amazingly good play.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I didn't say that.

I said it'd be really stupid to let the scum know the full details of my role

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

You've got to be kidding me. you already said you didn't believe me and you thought I was scum and this was before I even went over my role there so either

A) I get lynched in which case my role info doesnt bloody matter

or

B) I don't get lynched in which case it'd be a good freaking thing that the mafia don't know how my role works in regards to inheriting restrictions because then they wouldn't know if they could quicklynch me tommorrow or not.

Honestly Nai are you that dense? It makes no bloody sense for me to say that I do inherit your restrictions even if I DO INHERIT THEM BECAUSE THIS INFORMATION CAN ONLY BE USED TO HURT THE TOWN.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

or C) I'm a town who actually thinks about what I should or should not reveal instead of blindly revealing everything.

There are numerous examples of times when a protown player claiming a power role shouldn't share all information about that power role with the rest of the town because that information

can only hurt the town

because it makes the scum more aware of what their options are.

It makes absolutely no sense for me to reveal whether I inherit your restrictions or negative liabilities when I use my replacement ability because THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Contd, pressed submit by accident.

THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO CAN USE THAT INFORMATION IN ANY WAY IS THE SCUM.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Look Nai, think for a second,

Either 1 of 2 things is going to happen today.

1) I get lynched -=> It doesn't matter whether I tell the truth because I'm DEAD and my role is DEAD WITH ME.

2) You get lynched, I replace you, if you're town and are what you say you are, tommorrow the scum have a choice of either trying to quicklynch me or not trying to quicklynch me. They don't KNOW at that point whether I am quicklynchable, if they try to go for the quicklynch, they'd reveal themselves, this uncertainty is to our ADVANTAGE, it is GOOD FOR THE TOWN THAT THE SCUM DO NOT KNOW WHETHER I AM QUICKLYNCHABLE AT THAT POINT OR NOT!!

The town has nothing to gain from me coming clean and everything to lose.

Think about what you post before you post it next time.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

That would've sounded more impressive if you hadn't been hellbent on lynching me before I even clarified the point, you flat out wouldn't have believed me either way and you know it and that minor point isn't going to be the lynchpin that gets me lynched or not.

There are some things it just doesn't make sense to tell the scum.

This is one of them.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

doesn't matter because you would be voting me whether I had said it or not.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I could say the same about you...

almost only counts in hand grenades and horseshoes, lynching somebody is niether.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

And you still aren't reading my posts. It's already been said, several times, by your buddy DGB there, that his claim is like a flying pumpkin with lasers. It's not a very believable claim unless one of two things happens. He finds scum and reveals them, getting them lynched, thus getting the town to know he's town. Or he breadcrumbs so people know he's not just pulling it out of his ass so he can have time to find scum for the town.

So are you saying that if he had not breadcrumbed, you would not believe his roleclaim?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

thank god.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

your amazingly overpowered roles would've probly still kicked our asses,

we were pretty much completely powerless scum.

congrats on winning though.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

nope

cuz every1 knew who was scum

we were kinda shafted by those power roles