Open 19 - Nightless (Over?) before 430

[Skruffs]

I believe Guardian has just been

busted

.

Hardcore?
Yes, Skruffs.

Hardcore.

[Guardian]

Wtf Skruffs, that's not true at all.

I could ask equally convoluted questions to Thok that he couldn't answer, about the same freaking actions.

eg: Thok, why did Setael wait for you to vote, and only after seeing your vote, then vote?

Finger of Strong Disapproval: Skruffs

for saying I am "busted" for not being able to answer leading and inconclusive rhetorical questions.

[Simenon]

Vote Count

IH (2)- VitaminR, Guardian
VitaminR (1)- Skruffs

[Thok]

I could ask equally convoluted questions to Thok that he couldn't answer, about the same freaking actions.

eg: Thok, why did Setael wait for you to vote, and only after seeing your vote, then vote?

Actually I

can

answer that question. If you are scum, then Setael didn't want either of you to be the lynch yesterday. Her best hope was to get me to talk myself into starting a new bandwagon and getting people to jump on once I had done that. If she voted Guardian, she would have difficulty getting herself off that wagon, and there was the possibility I would hammer you before she could change her vote.

Alternatively, she wanted to force me into a false dilemna about which of you was most likely to be scum, an observation I made yesterday.

Alternatively, she wanted to gain the benefit of hammering you/voting for you in case one of you got lynched.

[Thok]

Oh I forgot one. If on the small chance that you are town, Setael wanted me to vote first so that people could blame me for your lynch if you came up town.

[Guardian]

If you want me to answer with a handful of possible different scenarios, I can probably go back and do that.

You seemed to want me to come up with definitive answers as to why such and such was true, which I obviously don't know. Any answer, as all three -- four -- of yours were, are complete speculation.

Is this what you want -- you want me to blindly speculate as to what possibly might have been Setael's motivations?

[Thok]

If you think you can come up with a reasonable scenario, go ahead. I don't really see a reasonable scenario.

You're also ignoring the voting record I mentioned, and the fact that you repeatedly dismissed the idea that Romanus/Oman was scummy after I brought it up.

[VitaminR]

VitR-I don't really see Guardian claiming an IH wagon would be better to be a protown tell. Given that he's been calling IH scum forever, I doubt that he'd change his mind about that.

Well, for me, his vehemence in going after IH is a major reason why I think he's town.

Reading through Theoville just confirms the impression. Guardian is much more likely to be this tunnel-visioned (and slightly aggravating ) when town.

[Thok]

VitR: what's your reason for going after IH?

[VitaminR]

My reasons for voting IH after re-reading:

1) He followed my John vote very easily in the beginning of Day 1, saying "good catch there, VitR." It felt like a scumbuddy bus to me at the time and it still does. Way too confident in the strength of the tell I found.

2) There was a resurgence of the John wagon towards the end of Day 1 (Skruffs voted John, I joined him, and then Romanus and Aimee). Following this, there were a couple of pages of discussion about whether or not Occult or John would make the better lynch. Crucially, IH's input was somewhat missing from this and he stayed on the Occult vote. He didn't really mention John and subsequently came out with a Tony vote Day 2.

These still stand, but I also don't agree with the people he's chosen to go after (Guardian and Tony, mainly). He's done nothing particularly pro-town.

I don't like where he ended up yesterday. There was also something concerning the Adel lynch, I think.

Found it:

I'm somewhat more suspicious of IH putting on the fourth vote after interrogating Elias about possibly doing so.

......would you like to read my posts towards Elias before stating as such? Particuarly the last two or three directed at him.

The bit where you say it is just "something of note?" That mostly struck me as strange.

I'd have expected you to a bit more understanding of Elias' actions, given your own regarding MoS and Adel.

It seemed to me to be a bit like you were trying to get Elias along while also setting up an argument against him later.

[Simenon]

Deadline possible.

[Thok]

Deadline possible.

Huh? This day hasn't even been a week long yet.

[Skruffs]

Pretty sure Oman and Setael both skipped over VitR when going after people. Prrreeeeeeeeetttttty sure that error of omission is a good one to go on. ^.^

[IH]

BTW I've started a day five review, and I would like to draw attention to two things very early about Guardian's play. How he was suspicious of Tony, and how he backtracked on his opinion about Tony and I, despite his vehemence about it the following days for my day 2 play.

[VitaminR]

Pretty sure Oman and Setael both skipped over VitR when going after people. Prrreeeeeeeeetttttty sure that error of omission is a good one to go on. ^.^

Firstly, that needn't be relevant at all. Second, Oman actually had me 2nd on his list initially, then changed his mind and decided I was pro-town. He only had 15 posts, though, and he only ever voted MoStafa. Setael voted everyone but me, but even she started to go after towards the end of the day. Also, I haven't been voted much the entire game. It's basically been Guardian and you, I think.

[Skruffs]

Right, and John, who voted occult, mufasa, and IH, only ever fossed you, almost seeming to agree that your reasoning for a wagon on him, while weak, had some merit.

romanus was very anti-bm, if I remember correctly, he didn't like BM's game summary post. Brownie points for Guardian.

[Guardian]

I need to re-read this game but I lack the time.

Unless somehow I magically am able to re-read, I am very content with my IH vote and Thok suspicion.


Romanus/Oman/Setael had a lot of interplay with everyone that merits reading, I just am too busy now to do it .

I'll try and respond to Thok in more depth when I get a moment, basically I really don't like his request as I've largely

already

done what he says he wants me to do -- I came up with several plausible things Setael could have been thinking, and he is trying to paint that I can't as a scum tell when I have already......

I feel great that 2 scum are among IH, Thok, Tony, Skruffs.

I highly doubt that Elias or VitaminR is scum. I don't see how we lose this.

[Skruffs]

Guardian, please, ewrite a note down "I do not think Skruffs is scum". Everytime I ask you why you think I'm scum, you forget the original reasoning, and balk, but you always say you think I'm scum with your next list, regardless.

[Thok]

I'll try and respond to Thok in more depth when I get a moment, basically I really don't like his request as I've largely

already

done what he says he wants me to do -- I came up with several plausible things Setael could have been thinking, and he is trying to paint that I can't as a scum tell when I have already......

First, you're focusing on what's arguably the weakest part of my case against you. I think my analysis of your voting record with respect to Setael/Romanus/Oman and your interaction with Romanus/Oman is a much stronger point against you than the whole end of yesterday interaction.

Secondly, my point is that Setael's end of the day behavior yesterday makes much more sense if I am town than if I am scum (she wouldn't need to convince me , and makes much more sense if you are scum then if you are town. Heck, I'd argue your IH vote doesn't make much sense now, as Setael delibarately put herself at risk to try to get an IH wagon going.

@VitR-feh, I'm not sure how much to read into Theo, since Guardian was basically forced into faking a cop claim early on in that game. I can sort of see where you are coming from.
-----------
Worth noting-when Setael came in, the vote count was
IH 1 (Guardian)
Guardian 1 (Elias)
Oman 1 (VitR)

At that point Guardian was a more likely wagon than IH (maybe not more likely than Oman/Setael), as that was the period of time when I was arguing with Guardian about Elias's modkill comment. Setael then proceeds to attack me ferociously out of nowhere. That suggests it was a distraction to deflect from the attacks on Guardian.

vote Guardian

[VitaminR]

I'm thinking IH and Elias, currently.

[Guardian]

Wtf Skruffs, that's not true at all.

I could ask equally convoluted questions to Thok that he couldn't answer, about the same freaking actions.

eg: Thok, why did Setael wait for you to vote, and only after seeing your vote, then vote?

Finger of Strong Disapproval: Skruffs

for saying I am "busted" for not being able to answer leading and inconclusive rhetorical questions.

Skruffs, I somehow convince myself that you are unlikely scum, and then you agree with bad cases like this one.

I wrote a note to myself, using notes -- it was something like "Skruffs wants me to think that he isn't scum -- BUT THEN WHY DOES HE KEEP ACTING SO SCUMMY and USING BAD LOGIC!?

...


@Thok. Look at my reasoning. None of my reasoning is bad. You can't just assume I'm scum because of a bad voting record; I may have been wrong on some people, but I was wrong for good reasons.

And seriously, my voting record

isn't that bad

.

I absolutely cannot

tolerate

how you and especially IH talk about my voting record and are like "man, and he didn't even support the John lynch".

Lies! He was almost as scummy as IH, and I obviously, obviously supported his lynch. And -- what do you know -- Setael was my second choice to IH -- and I

was

on her lynch wagon.

In effect, I've supported two scum lynches, and been on ONE townie mislynch, two counting BM's actions.


You're like "omg, bad voting record". That isn't even true.

dayvig: IH, Thok

. At

least

one scum dead. Seriously.





VitaminR -- how does Elias being scum jive with Romanusus's reaction to my lynch to 4 proposal?

[TonyMoonshine]

I'll post something tonight.

[IH]

I would say that VitR scum wouldn't be that surprising with Guardian. Elias either.

[Thok]

@Thok. Look at my reasoning. None of my reasoning is bad. You can't just assume I'm scum because of a bad voting record; I may have been wrong on some people, but I was wrong for good reasons.

You didn't have reasoning for not voting Romanus. You repeatedly said things like "I think he's a confused townie", or "I don't see Thok's argument". Your vote for Adel was simultaenous with you arguing that her bad logic wasn't a scum tell.

I've already criticized your arguments for going after IH.

And seriously, my voting record

isn't that bad

.

I absolutely cannot

tolerate

how you and especially IH talk about my voting record and are like "man, and he didn't even support the John lynch".

I've never brought up the John lynch. I have brought up the rest of your voting record, which arguably is bad.

Lies! He was almost as scummy as IH, and I obviously, obviously supported his lynch. And -- what do you know -- Setael was my second choice to IH -- and I

was

on her lynch wagon.

Huh? Setael only became your "second choice" at the end of the day; as late as post 1494, you mostly prefered a Tony lynch to Setael. As I've explained the late day vote on Setael is mostly worthless in assessing your alignment. (Your first vote on Setael was worth something, but you immediately unvoted her when she jumped off of Tony).

And if you voting Setael is protown credit for you, then why isn't it protown credit for me, especially since I actually had a choice of who I could vote at the deadline and I was the major pusher on Romanus/Oman before Setael arrived?

In effect, I've supported two scum lynches, and been on ONE townie mislynch, two counting BM's actions.

You're like "omg, bad voting record". That isn't even true.

You only supported a Setael/Oman/Romanus lynch on the third try. The first two times you didn't push that lynch, a townie died.

[Guardian]

@Thok. Look at my reasoning. None of my reasoning is bad. You can't just assume I'm scum because of a bad voting record; I may have been wrong on some people, but I was wrong for good reasons.

You didn't have reasoning for not voting Romanus. You repeatedly said things like "I think he's a confused townie", or "I don't see Thok's argument".

Exactly -- I didn't have reasoning FOR voting Romanus. I didn't see a good case -- voting him wouldn't have made sense. The most I've had this game until yesterday was scummy vibes that very well might have been tainted with OMGUS over his constant pursuit of me -- surely you aren't saying I

should

have voted him for those reasons?

I voted for Setael because her actions since replacing in seemed scum motivated, and because it looked very much like her or Tony, and I preferred her.

Your vote for Adel was simultaenous with you arguing that her bad logic wasn't a scum tell.

It was also simultaneous with me arguing that her complete lack of response AND her predecessors actions WERE full of scum tells.

Much of my suspicion of mustafa came from your (imo seemingly good) advice to look for who supported Occult over John. Mustafa was obviously one of those characters, and he also had a few other black marks on his record.

I've already criticized your arguments for going after IH.

I feel very strongly about these, you disagree; I'm OK with agreeing to disagree with you here, especially since there is a not insignificant chance that you two are scum together.

And seriously, my voting record

isn't that bad

.

I absolutely cannot

tolerate

how you and especially IH talk about my voting record and are like "man, and he didn't even support the John lynch".

I've never brought up the John lynch. I have brought up the rest of your voting record, which arguably is bad.

My bad about the John lynch -- IH *has* brought that up repeatedly -- I thought you agreed with it.

My voting record, I *guess* is arguably bad -- but not counting day one, I've lynched one townie and one scum. Certainly others have done equally bad or worse .

Lies! He was almost as scummy as IH, and I obviously, obviously supported his lynch. And -- what do you know -- Setael was my second choice to IH -- and I

was

on her lynch wagon.

Huh? Setael only became your "second choice" at the end of the day; as late as post 1494, you mostly prefered a Tony lynch to Setael. As I've explained the late day vote on Setael is mostly worthless in assessing your alignment. (Your first vote on Setael was worth something, but you immediately unvoted her when she jumped off of Tony).

This is a fair analysis -- all I will say is that I unvoted her because she voted IH -- IH is and was my first target, and with her and VitaminR seemingly available to support an IH lynch, I thought it could finally happen...

And if you voting Setael is protown credit for you, then why isn't it protown credit for me, especially since I actually had a choice of who I could vote at the deadline and I was the major pusher on Romanus/Oman before Setael arrived?

Reasons, and timing. Like you said, my late vote of her really doesn't mean much, she was the viable alternative to me at that point.

However, your late vote for her was your only vote for her, correct? And even then, when you had a chance to vote her or me and make a decision, you didn't, and instead gave her an opportunity to cast the deciding vote. As I expressed then, your hesitation to make a decision is something that I did not like at ALL. When you did vote her, you seemed almost apologetic about it, which makes me think you were busing.

In effect, I've supported two scum lynches, and been on ONE townie mislynch, two counting BM's actions.

You're like "omg, bad voting record". That isn't even true.

You only supported a Setael/Oman/Romanus lynch on the third try. The first two times you didn't push that lynch, a townie died.

Like I said -- the first two times I didn't push the lynch, I didn't have a good reason TO push the lynch, and I had good reasons to push IH and secondarily others.

I'll ask again, as I do want an explicit answer:

Do you think I should have voted Romanus earlier, when I didn't believe there was a legitimate case on him? If not, why should I be held accountable for not voting him?

If IH turns out to be scum (highly likely), should I be held accountable for voting IH instead of Romanus?