Open 32 - Pick Your Poison Mafia (Game Over!), before 470

[Guardian]

Hi all .

vote: mneme

.

Somewhat lurkish, and when he comes out from hiding his reasons sound fake.

FOS: xyzzy

He never removed his random vote, and then went with the easy case on dylan.

fos: Jdodge

Unacceptable.

[Guardian]

Only 2 players posting content in the 2 days since I've replaced saddens me. Are more prods needed, or is everyone lurking along with Jdodge?

I like the argument against Shanba, to an extent. Shanba, what do you think about mneme and xyzzy right now?

[Guardian]

mneme, what do you think of Patrick Shanba and xyzzy right now? Has anything changed from your Aug. 27 post?

[Guardian]

mneme, convince me to vote someone else.

xyzzy would be the easiest at this point, he is definitely my second choice to mneme. Is xyzzy around?

[Guardian]

mneme, you very well could be town, but you easily could be scum and you've done nothing to convince me otherwise -- and its not like I have extremely high standards.

DO something if you are town.

[Guardian]

Guardian: mneme, why should I think you are pro-town?
mneme: "you play your game, you take your chances."

???

I always get "oh shit" vibes when someone is near lynch... but the ones I'm getting from you are easily quelled with that response. .

Shanba is your #1 scum target, and is such because of his lie?

[Guardian]

well done doc/rb/other .

vote: xyzzy

Would have been a better day one lynch, still likely to be scum.

fos: Shanba

mneme seemed like he was busing, didn't like the end of day two play.

fos: Jdodge

nothing has changed here...

[Guardian]

A simple plurality will lynch at that point.

Jdodge hammering had little effect on the outcome if we were near deadline...


I'd be surprised if xyzzy got replaced, he is active on the site. His prerogative, though.

[Guardian]

I haven't had the chance to re-read Setael, which I intend to do, as many seem to think the case has merit.

However, I want to respond to two things Rishi brought up:

• My playstyle in this game is
  intentionally
  different from my typical style. This is to both avoid people being able to metagame me, and to see if this is more effective. Your read "Guardian town didn't play like this" is accurate -- but unless you can demonstrate that "Guardian scum
  does
  play like this" your argument is a null tell.
  
  
• I've read jeep's thing too... I congratulated whomever despite having read it; our doc/rber/whatever did a good job, and I thought it would be nice to congratulate them...

[Guardian]

Shanba has given a decent reason for his move and his admittance and explanation of his lie seemed Town to me

Why?

I was wondering if Guardian would ever address my case on schizmatized but he never did.

Why would you expect me to do this without asking me to do it?

I still have lingering schiz suspicions that have carried over to Guardian. He hasn't done much lately.

What do you mean by this? Why do you think this?

[Guardian]

Shanba has given a decent reason for his move and his admittance and explanation of his lie seemed Town to me

Why?

Why does his admittance seem Town?

I still have lingering schiz suspicions that have carried over to Guardian.

He hasn't done much lately

.

What do you mean by this? Why do you think this?

[Guardian]

OK Setael. Just one more question...

I still have lingering schiz suspicions that have carried over to Guardian.

He hasn't done much lately

.

What do you mean by this? Why do you think this?

[Guardian]

By "he hasn't done much lately" I mean that you haven't been posting much content since daybreak. I can look past your lack of solid content since your main suspect is not being particularly active, so I will admit that is not a very strong point against you.

IN-deed. Also, no one's asked me any questions, and my opinions haven't change, meaning I don't need to post. So, your initial reason for suspecting me, that I "hasn't done much lately" is almost without substance....

I actually think your xyzzy vote is a stronger point against you.

Because xyyzy is town and voting for my second choice suspect after my first choice is lynched and comes up scum is a scum tell?

My main reasoning for schizmatized being scummy was based on the move from the xyzzy wagon to the SSF wagon.

Wait, so now xyzzy is scum?

I thought both Shanba's and schizmatized moves looked really scummy and very possibly could've been distracting from the xyzzy wagon and onto SSF to protect a scum buddy. (especially where schismatized had said it was too early to lynch xyzzy and then mere posts later he's willing to let SSF hang).

So I am scummy to vote for xyzzy... because it is scummy to vote for scum?

If I was wrong about xyzzy's alignment, ScumGuardian would know it.

So now xyzzy is town again?

If that is the case, I could see Guardian being motivated to push a xyzzy lynch, so that when xyzzy comes up Town Guardian is cleared - at least of the reasons I had to suspect him.

Ah, I see now, I think. I am trying to lynch xyzzy-town because lynching townies is a town tell?

I could also see scum going for a xyzzy lynch because so many have been suspicious of him and he's now so lurky. If xyzzy is scum, I'm probably wrong since I doubt Guardian would bus both his partners one right after another. I don't think that's the case though... I think it's more likely that Guardian is scum.

Oh, but lynching townies is ALSO a scum tell?

This warrants a Guardian vote!

vote: Guardian

OMGUS,

HOS: Setael

. If the case on you has any merit, you're getting a vote. Your logic in the above vote is extremely convoluted, and as I suspected, you were not able to back up your comment that I "haven't been doing much lately" and that that's scummy.

[Guardian]

I'd like to get other people's reactions to Setael before I continue further.

I have a few things to bring up, but I'd like to see what a few specific others think, if that's OK.

[Guardian]

No -- I want to see how a few likely candidates to be scum with you respond to our interaction.

I can press on instead if that's desired .

[Guardian]

I just re-read Setael. She and Shanba are NOT scum together.

I think it is highly possible that the final two scum are xyzzy and Setael. Setael's play reminds me of a game she and I were in where she got lynched and was scum. Ongoing so I can't discuss, but... .

Also, in this game, she didn't mention mneme until she voted him. Also, her first reason for finding me suspicious -- "hasn't done much lately" -- she basically admitted was a bullshit reason for finding me suspicious.



The main things I was going to bring up to Setael are:

1) Do you

really

think I care

that

much about your individual reason for maybe finding Schis suspicious -- enough that it would motivate me to try and get xyzzy lynched?
2) Is my pursuing xyzzy not a logical following of my analysis of the game and my play yesterday?

3) Setael, your reasons for finding me suspicious don't make sense. If I were scum and xyzzy is town:
Me leading a mislynch wagon on him would make me look scummier than any potential gains I'd get from "easing your suspicion of Schis". Me leading a mislynch wagon on xyzzy couldn't be motivated by trying to look more townlike -- leading a mislynch wagon makes you look scummy! Your statements

don't make sense in context

, because your context doesn't make sense. I pulled them out of context to illustrate this.


I am very interested in xyzzy and Setael today. Jdodge and Shanba can wait.

I really want to hear from xyzzy, it definitely seems that he is intentionally lurking at this point.

[Guardian]

I'm still here... still want to hear from xyzzy... I prodded Thesp, in case this slipped of his radar...

Setael, let us know what you think after reread.

I'd like to hear what

everyone

thought of the me-Setael interaction. Even Jdodge .

[Guardian]

I agree with TM's 403 except for his assertion that Jdodge is the scummiest.

I re-read the game and I still want xyzzy (or a replacement) lynched, with Setael as my second choice. I have little preference between the two.

White is very likely to be town, Shanba is probably town too. Everyone else is in the gray area.

[Guardian]

Setael's recent posts are confusing me. She seems to be putting an honest effort into analyzing everyone.

But her metagaming of me doesn't make sense to me, afaik we've only been in one game together.

I honestly am conflicted on her right now. I am happy with my xyzzy vote.



Jdodge, I'm sure you've been right before. I'm also sure you've been scum before. Your not giving reasons for who you think is scum --> us not being able to get a read on you --> scummy.

[Guardian]

Jdodge, I'm sure you've been right before. I'm also sure you've been scum before. Your not giving reasons for who you think is scum --> us not being able to get a read on you --> scummy.

Do you remember the last time you thought my not giving reasons was an indicator of me being scum?

I think your behavior is a scummy meta decision.

Your refusal to explain your reasons has meta-only motives, and doesn't help the town out -- so just as you are unwilling to explain, I am unwilling to let you get by not explaining in any game.

If there is someone who is much more likely to be scum than average (Setael, xyzzy), I am happy lynching them instead of you, but your unwillingness to help us get inside your head is anti-town, and scummy.

[Guardian]

Guardian strikes me as townish in his latest few posts.

Why?

[Guardian]

I found xyzzy's posts scummy in and of themselves, and his intentional lurking only added to that.

Rishi, why say

Until we get a replacement for xyzzy or a post from him, the vote stands.

?

If you think his role is scum, wouldn't you keep voting him even if a replacement shows up?

[Guardian]

Welcome Bookitty !

After you read, I'd like to know what you think of Setael, Jdodge, and Patrick specifically, along with anything else you want to contribute.

Also, I find xyzzy's actions scummy; if you wish to try and explain how they aren't, feel free to. You don't have to, but if you don't my vote is likely to stay put.

For all interested: xyzzy here reminds me of xyzzy in Fire & Ice mafia, which I modded. He was scum, and was lynched day one -- as he should have been here...

[Guardian]

I would be -- if xyzzy is lynched and comes up scum.

It makes no sense to analyze the swing assuming he could be scum, if he is in fact not scum.

fos

for your question. You could be scum wanting me to shift away from looking at xyzzy, or trying to make me look suspicious for looking into him. Either way, I really don't like it Setael.

[Guardian]

For all interested: xyzzy here reminds me of xyzzy in Fire & Ice mafia, which I modded. He was scum, and was lynched day one -- as he

should have been here

...

When asked why he hadn't looked into the people involved in the vote swing away from xyzzy, in order to try to identify scumbuddies since he seemed so certain that xyzzy was scum...

I would be -- if xyzzy is lynched and comes up scum.

It makes no sense to analyze the swing

assuming he could be scum, if he is in fact not scum.

How do you reconcile these two rather conflicting statements? Your level of certainty seems to swing pretty widely in only a two-post interval.

We don't know xyzzy's allignment. It makes no sense to analyze the actions of those defending him

assuming

that he is scum. It does make sense to lynch him, and

then if and only if he is scum

, analyze the actions of those defending him. I think it is highly

likely

that xyzzy is scum, but until that is proven, we should not focus on those defending xyzzy.

That's why I didn't like Setael asking me to analyze his actions now -- that we don't know xyzzy's alignment. Perhaps Setael does, and thus thought it would make sense to analyze those defending xyzzy. Thus the FOS.

[Guardian]

I feel like I am being straw manned.

confirm vote: Bookitty

.

In

no case

does it make sense to analyze those defending xyzzy yet.

-If we think it highly likely that he is scum, it makes sense to vote xyzzy, regardless of those who have been defending him, and not get sidetracked ahead of ourselves. This is where I stand.

-If we do not think it highly likely that he is scum, it does not make sense to look at those who have been defending him.

[Guardian]

Wow, another Straw Man. Telling half truths that sound really bad and trying to make them sound like a rhetorical question do

not

a townie make.

confirm vote: Bookitty

again.

No. In no way am I tunneling in on one target. I am suspicious of Setael and Jdodge highly also, and have lingering suspicions of Patrick.

I do, however, think it is a waste of time to try and ascertain what a wagon shift means on someone whose alignment we are unsure of means, in terms of those who helped shift the wagon. If I had a day-vig, Bookitty, scum, would be dead right now. Her last 3 of 4 posts have done nothing but confirm my suspicions of xyzzy.

Die, scum; die.

[Guardian]

On a completely unrelated note -- many have provided no reaction to the me-Setael debate over the past few pages. Notably, White, Jdodge and Bookitty have yet to comment on it.

What are your thoughts?



And Bookitty, stop Straw-Manning and OMGUSing. It doesn't help your case at all. I'm not going to continue responding to your fallacious arguments.

[Guardian]

I

have

no contradicitons.

You are inventing them.

Careful

-- wait, no --

reasonable

examination shows that.


Straw man is where you say I am saying one thing, yet I am actually saying another. That is

exactly what you are doing

.

And all that crap about following the crowd is full of wifom; you are basically saying "if I were scum, I would act like scum".




Bookitty, your arguments are extremely annoying, you employing straw man, OMGUS, and WIFOM heavily, and moreover you are completely wrong.

Curious -- is there anything you find suspicious about me or schismatised

not

involving my suspicion of you and my desire not to get distracted chasing those who might have been defending you?

[Guardian]

Gah... 20 posts or so overnight. Information overload.

Patrick, I am leaning Rishi town, but I'm not sure. I've played with Rishi town 3/4 times, and never with Rishi scum. His play does not seem significantly different, and I haven't noticed any contradictions in this game.

I think I want to re-read Setael again and read Rishi, to see if either is a good alternative to Bookitty. Right now, I am really not feeling BK-town, and definitely am saddened by Rishi's unvote .

[Guardian]

I re-skimed Setael // Rishi.

I am not interested in a Rishi lynch today.

Setael, maybe, but definitely I prefer Bookitty more.

Bookitty right now is playing exactly how I used to try and play as scum. Really long ass "effort" posts that make people think you really care AND obfuscate the connection between you and your scum partners. I still think her reason for voting me is absolutely contrived garbage, and that added to xyzzy's play makes me very happy with a Bookitty lynch.



I'm not interested in going back and forth with her; I'm sure she could talk (well, post) me to death. I am interested in her being lynched today, very much so.

If anyone has specific questions about this, feel free to address them to me.

Also, I noted that some people had some suspicions of me about a few things. If any of these are particularly important that I address, let me know.

[Guardian]

all games: possible v/la or only posting during the day due to computer issues.

[Guardian]

I'm not sure what to do with JDodge right now.

I could conceivably see Setael and Bookitty as scum together.

qft

Setael, I like Rishi in the you-he debate and dislike you. I am near the point of asking for a claim.

[Guardian]

unvote vote: Setael

I have 0 tolerance for people saying I am scummy

for not voting them

, ever. This is the closest to a "policy" vote you'll ever see from me.

Also, your "uncharacteristic of you" metagaming is completely inaccurate.

Go ahead and claim.

[Guardian]

If I'm lynched, at least it'll serve to cast a little light on Guardian and Rishi.

GAH. Does anyone else completely NOT see Setael-scum saying this about Guardian-town and Rishi-town? I could see her saying it about Guardian-town and Rishi-scum, but from my POV, if Rishi is not her buddy, then she is a good bit more likely town from that phrase.

That is just something very odd for scum to say .

I would not have believed Cop or Doc from Setael, too, by the way, so the townie claim is most plausible...

unvote

*Thinking cap*

I am still suspicious of her -- and Bookitty -- but that one phrase unnerves me.

[Guardian]

Setael's statement threw me because if she is lynched and is scum, it would point to both Rishi-town and me-town. It seems that it would be silly for a scum at lynch -1 to point to two townies (if Rishi is indeed town). Her dying suspicion of us, if Rishi is also town, would not be distancing -- it would just be making it obvious to the town that Rishi and I are town, which like I said seems dumb for a dying scum to do.

So, I read her statement as much more likely from a town perspective -- she genuinely wants the town to consider me and Rishi carefully if she is dead.



You guys don't interpret that this way?

Bookitty, you're wrong, and I don't care to respond. But keep rambling, I'm sure it makes you feel good.

[Guardian]

Hmm. Yeah, That makes sense, actually.

I am still not comfortable with her lynch for some reason now. Maybe the quickness of her wagon -- it always feels harder to lynch scum than this.

I am probably just WIFOMing myself.

Setael, if you have anything really important to say go ahead, I am highly considering hammering you.

[Guardian]

Wow, that really isn't what I was looking for.

Attacking person NOT voting you = bad strategy, town or scum.

vote: Setael

.

"almost had me convinced"... bull.

[Guardian]

Bye Thin Man. You played well.

Vote: Bookitty

Reasons previously stated, wrongness, annoyingness, scumness.

FOS: Jdodge

I still have no read on him and he refuses to help us get one by posting anything substantial.

fos: Rishi

I didn't like the Setael Rishi interaction near the end of the day, and Setael naming me and Rishi in that thing I quoted still makes me a bit suspicious.



I'd like to hear White's take on the game, we haven't heard from him in a while. I think he might have some sort of limited access, but I'll PM Thesp asking for a prod.

We're in a good spot here, hopefully we can get a win...

[Guardian]

Rishi, I'm going to try and interpret Setael's actions.

As Shanba pointed out, though, maybe she was just trying to WIFOM us about that. I'm not really interested in lynching you today, but that comment by her nags me.

Jdodge, as frustrating as he is, I have no idea of his alignment. Just his unwillingness to help out is suspicious to me.

Patrick is probably fourth for me, just by process of elimination. I think there is a good chance it is Bookitty though.

[Guardian]

Still here, my opinion hasn't substantially changed, still want to hear from White/replacement.

[Guardian]

His interactions with Mneme were inconclusive (as is most everything about Mneme, I think)

You don't think there is anything we can conclusively draw from mneme - others interactions?

I am not a big fan of this Rishi wagon right now. We need White's replacement, and Jdodge, before we should be lynching Rishi, imo. I am unsure of Rishi now, if we were going to lynch someone other than Bookitty and Jdodge, I'd rather it were Patrick atm, I think. Rishi has made a lot of sense this game, and looking back, it is not obvious that he was busing Setael.

[Guardian]

Can you explain more clearly? I don't really have a good idea what you mean by the above.

I definitely wouldn't hammer Rishi without explaining why you think that's a good decision, and then only if you are quite convinced he is scum.

[Guardian]

Bookitty -- you've purported to do a whole lot of reading; you've said you've read and re-read much more than I have actually read.

In your reading, what did you think of how others treated/reacted to mneme? Mneme himself left little trails, but others' treatments of him might reveal more -- you didn't notice anything?

[Guardian]

Bookitty is trying really really hard. I tend to think she wouldn't leave so much analysis for us to scrutinize if she is scum. Eh, she is def still in my top three though.

However,

unvote vote: Jdodge

.



One thing really bugged me -- when I metagamed him, and said his not posting was scummy, he asked "remember the last time you tried to do this?" He was right to do so -- he was town in that game.

However, he FAILED to point out that

I

was scum in that game. There were two scum factions, but I was scum and the last time I made that argument it could have been just BS scum tactics -- and I would expect him to bring that up here.

His failure to do so makes me think he was possibly buddying --

he wasn't interested in figuring out if I was scum, he was only interested in making me think that he wasn't scum

.

Also, his behavior re: both scum wagons has been suspicious.

More Jdodge wagon please. Bookitty and Patrick can wait.

[Guardian]

I actually agree that

some of Guardian's logic is a little weak

, but the problem with JDodge is that he is almost unreadable. If JDodge is the last scum, he's fairly dangerous.

But

I'm still not interested in lynching {Jdodge} today

. I'm more inclined to go for Bookitty or Sikario8.

Agreed with Rishi here. Actually, Unvote Vote: Jdodge

. I don't think Bookitty is the play and I have a strong town read on Jack and I'm getting a town read on Rishi now too.

How are you agreeing with Rishi?

[Guardian]

Mod:

Sikario8 replaced White.

Speaking of which, could you prod him? We need to hear from him.

[Guardian]

Jdodge, claim, please. At the very least --

no one hammer without letting him claim

.

[Guardian]

I think Sikario8's vote was iffy, but Jack's behavior really makes me think that role is town.

[Guardian]

I think Sikario8's vote was iffy, but Jack's behavior really makes me think that role is town.

Explain iffy.

He seems to both be joining the strongest available wagon, and has little original thought in doing so. Also, even in describing what reasons he is borrowing from others to vote, I don't think he is using the stronger ones.

However, I am happy with the location of his vote.

[Guardian]

Any third claims?

I'm assuming Shanba is the blocker, that leads to Shanba and Bookitty town. Jdodge I get the feeling is town because it would be suicide to do that as scum.

Actually, is so WIFOM though... If he thought we'd think that, it would be a great move to do as scum.

Shanba, you will probably get killed tonight,

you should announce who you are going to block

so they are cleared as well going into the next day if you are killed. My advice: Patrick. Having him cleared would help out tremendously, he's on the bubble for me and I think he could win this as scum. That is for if/when we go to night.

Jdodge, I want you to explain your 'gambit'.

[Guardian]

Btw -- I hate being lynched to lose the game at lylo. It's happened like, 80 billion times.

So, if you we got to lylo with some people confirmed, and you would lynch me over them, please speak up and have Shanba block me.

I'd much rather that than being mislynched, I get all squeamish at lylo and lose games, and I'd very much like for that to not happen here.

[Guardian]

The only thing is you guys better not lynch me with three alive. Seriously, if that happens, I'll explode. I want to be blocked if that is in the back of your minds.

Other than that, yeah I'm down...

[Guardian]

Hi all .

vote: mneme

.

Somewhat lurkish, and when he comes out from hiding his reasons sound fake.

FOS: xyzzy

He never removed his random vote, and then went with the easy case on dylan.

fos: Jdodge

Unacceptable.

This is the best I've ever played as pro-town. Yay . 3 scum in 3 days after I replace in, and I helped all of the lynches.

PS: Sorry Bookitty! <3. Good job everyone!!