Mini 507: Big Brother Mafia - Game Over

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

/confirm

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Pablito, one thing I want to clear up that I don't see in the rules:

How is the HoH chosen for the first day? I see that the lynched player chooses the next HoH, but how are we picking an HoH to start us off?

Game sounds like a lot of fun, btw. Thanks for hosting it.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Sweet shin kicking. Always up for making someone hop on one leg

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Ryan I LOVE your sig!! I'm stealing it, just so you know.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Thanks Pablito!

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

what up mneme!

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I have to go with the suggestion that we play as normal. DoS keeping the "vote count" sounds like a great idea, and I'll go one step further and suggest that all future HoHs keep the "vote count" as well.

If we use Vote: so and so bolded, then we're stuck with that vote. But I don't want anyone missing a "vote" so I think we should use something other than the word vote. Is everyone ok with:

Nominate: Player

?

After all, what we're doing is placing two people up for nominations. And this way the HoH can find the "vote" easier and we can still stick to the format we're familiar with. Then after we get the nominations done we can switch to the word vote.

If we're ok with that, I'm going to start off by....

random

Nominate: STD

because no one likes dragons anyway.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Vel is fine. We can do two, I just need to wrap my mind around going after more than 1 person at a time

I'm of the opinion that everyone needs to start participating, quickly, since we only have a few days to get anything done. I can see our first set of nominees becoming the two people who contributed the least this first round. I'm not saying that's the way we should do it, but I can see it happening.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Vote: ChaosOmega

because I, also, can.

Found my 2nd nomination

Nominate: trabony

for not following the rules!

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Bleh. I've been remis -- but then, so have other people.

Nom: trabony

I'll save a second nom for now.

Random Nom, or is there a reason?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Don't be coy, you know what I mean

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

VRK: I think my reasons are pretty obvious in the thread -- you're a smart mafia player, you can figure them out.

Ok, I'm dense. The clue hammer just hit me...

Hi everyone! I'm a bit of a moron at the moment, give me 48 hrs to pull my head out of my @$$.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

The nominations will only help in deciding who the HoH picks as the two people up for elimination at the end of Day 1.

There's nothing in the rules that state that the HoH needs to listen to our nominations, but I think that the HoH will be hard-pressed to explain why he went against the "town" the next day.

trabony: He doesn't give a reason for nominating you, but if you look back you actually used the term vote, which if pablito hadn't decided not to count votes until after the nominations you'd be stuck with a vote for ChaosOmega. The second point is that your vote on Chaos is an OMGUS vote. Third, post 118 is your 5th total post of the game, including your /confirm post.

You're not dumb per se, even if you are Irish (my wife would beat me if she saw that line ). But so far you're lurking, not paying attention with your vote, and you're OMGUSing. Seems like good reasons for nominating you.

I'm sure mneme will correct me if I've mucked anything up.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Change your name

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

DoS, I'd like to see a Nomination count, please.

In fact, I think it should be required for the HoH's to post a nomination count in the same thread they do their official nominations for elimination. I also think it would be a good idea for the HoH to post a Nomination count every 24 RL hours, since the game is so short, we can't wait for the top of the next page to roll around. Doing that may also help to galvanize people into speaking (as it did with Pug).

Yes we can all run the numbers, but I want everything to be on the up and up. It's one thing to say that player A and B have the most votes, it's another to post the Nomination count.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I'm sorry, didn't we already agree to post Nomination counts?

Yes, but I don't see one, do you? We agreed on it days ago, and never saw a single one, not even with the HoH nomination post, hence my requests in post 161.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

It's all with trying to keep the HoH honest. Is DoS scum? Only a couple of people know the answer to that for sure, and I don't want

anyone

sneaking something past the town, especially at the speed this game is going to move.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I think the first nomination count really wouldn't have been that useful, mainly because most of the nominations were random. Of the 3 people with 2 nominations, they all had 1 nomination that was random. Nominations were more to start discussion than to accuse who people thought were scum.

I'm not saying later nomination counts shouldn't be posted, but the first one isn't terribly important in regards to the amount of nominations correlating with who people think are scum.

BUT the nomination count illustrates a point: the HoH in this case nominated someone with only 1 vote against them, and it was done in a rather OMGUS manner. May not be important for now, but it's definitely something to watch out for.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

BUT the nomination count illustrates a point: the HoH in this case nominated someone with only 1 vote against them, and it was done in a rather OMGUS manner. May not be important for now, but it's definitely something to watch out for.

At the point where we had nominations, you have to remember we had only random unrelated discussion and a few random or OMGUS nominations to go on anyway. On Day 1 start, there's not really all that much to discuss unless someone says something like "Hey guys, I'm scum! lolzors!" Seriously, with the amount that DoS had to go on, he really had only a few options:
1. Go with the people with the most votes (who were most likely chosen for the below-mentioned reasons)
2. Pick randomly
3. Nominate people for OMGUS reasons
4a. Nominate lurkers
4b. Have a secret hidden nazi agenda

This is pretty much the day one norm as far as I've ever seen. I think that you saying we should "watch out for him" is reading just a *little* too far into his actions. Just a thought, though.

Easy killer I didn't say that we needed to watch out for him, please don't misinterpret my words. I agree with you, and sorry to DoS for making it seem otherwise, that Day 1 is usually a crap shoot. Even more so because we're on a limited time schedule.

However, I was pointing out the fact that despite that Day 1 IS a crap shoot, DoS nominated someone for a

specific reason

, and he went against the rest of the players nominations to do so. We had 3 players with 2 nominations each, and only one of them spoke up in defense against being the 2nd nominee (PuG), which to me means that one of the other two should have been the 2nd nominee along with Trabony. But they weren't, DoS went off to a player with only one vote.

With the limited amount of information we have, having something

specific

against another player, even something as simple as "he's lurking" needs to be examined, especially in light of the fact that the other nominee (Trabony) got no reasoning for his nomination, whereas Flare did (we're all assuming that it's because Trabony has 4 votes and is the standout votee for this round, which I'm happy to go with because it's a logical assumption). This implies motivation - whether for the stated reason or not remains to be determined. I'm not advocating that we come out of the gates Day 2 and lynch DoS because he nominated someone on his own Day 1, I'm saying that we shouldn't just overlook it because it could be important information for later.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Very true, I wasn't dwelling on it per se, I wanted to answer DoS and Tripod's responses to my statement.

I'm guessing that we're not going to get much out of either one of them, which is a shame because whoever is left for tomorrow will still need to be playing. If they're both town they're doing us a disservice and should request replacement instead of stringing us all along.

Come on guys say something!

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Well based solely on random chance, there's a 9/12 chance that they ARE town. Not good odds.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

EBWOP: Sorry I forgot there were 2 scum groups. So we have a 50/50 shot. Better, but not great.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Really? I usually don't consider Scum to be stupid, and doing something like what pick just did seems like he'd be painting a target on his forehead if he were scum.

I agree with everyone else pick - stow the hostility, we don't need the over-reactions. You can prove a point in a less abrasive manner. Although I understand your point of view, I don't condone your behavior.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Hmm. So far, we have:

Trabony: "I'm not going to defend myself" (more or less)
Flare: Woo! {...}.

Can't we just vote to lynch them both?

One can only wish...

More seriously, neither is giving us much to work with, either in terms of evaluating them as scum/not scum nor even any idea of whether they'll be useful members of the town (ok, we get the impression they won't be).

All things considered, if nothing changes, I'll vote for Flare, for general uselessness, but I'd rather have more to work with.

I'm happier with a Flare lynch as well, since at least we know he's around and not contributing on purpose, vs. the general malaise Trabony is showing. At least Trabony is attempting to scum hunt (ref. post 149), which ought to count for something.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

viewtopic.php?t=6287&start=150#780417

Before I defend myself I want to know how I'm hurting things, as far as I'm concerned I've only been hurting myself so far in this game.

IOW, AFAICT "I'm not going to defend myself unless someone makes a more substantial attack."

IOW?

AFAICT = As Far As I Can Tell (I'm assuming anyway), but IOW is escaping me.

No non-standard acronyms please, makes my head hurt

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Heh Google rocks.

IOW = In Other Words.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

No votes yet, but I'm not sure that the nominees can be rescinded, which means either you or Flare are going bye bye today Skruffs

Glad you're talking though!

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Yes, I would have looked for 'clumpings' of opinions, personally, and targetted one person from each perceived clumping.

But yeah, unless I grossly misread, ryan claimed non-floater.

How does this help find scum? Most scum I know distance themselves from their buddies, and don't tend to interact that often.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Mneme - I disagree. Dos should have, if he wanted to stimulate conversation, picked people that other people had already started backing.

Appears to miss the point that this is still mafia. People don't back other people; they attack them, and 3/4 of the town's interest is toward finding any particular scum despite the town being 1/2 mafia, since the scum aren't on the same side. It also appears to miss the fact that there were no large groups when DoS had to pick targets; instead, there were tiny bandwagons amid a lot of nothing.

Moreover, it also misses the fact that the final debate at the end of each day isn't all that important, and isn't where most of the debate in this game should be. Far, far more important should be the debate that decides who the two candidates are in the first place, which in an ideal game should result in two scum up on the debating square. And the decision of who those two people are is likely to be far more accurate if, in the end, it derives from the town consensus than if it's essentially random.

<3

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I have to go with a

Vote: distad

He states that he was scum hunting, and said that he had 25% of the previous pages posts, but looking at his posts in isolation I see almost no scum hunting at all. Then there's the "I'm a townie and if that's not good enough, sorry" defense, which raises my hackles.

Skruffs is asking questions, making some attempt to defend himself, and in general is giving me more of a townie vibe than distad.

Up to ChaosOmega to break the tie, I guess.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Vel-Rahn Koon: As HoH how will you be selecting the two players up for eviction? Will we (the game) be voting or will you be just selecting?

I will be following the wishes of the other players, unless something happens that I feel I need to move my nomination elsewhere.

If I do go against the wishes of the group, I'll be sure to post a detailed set of reasons as to why, far enough in advance, so that the other players can either support my reasons or debunk them. If I feel that after discussion my reasoning is weak due to player arguments, then I'll move my nomination more in-line with the majority of the town.

@Pick: don't use Vote, votes are permanent. Let's remember to use Nominate instead,

unless Pablito isn't counting Vote until after the nominations are in, as he did last time...

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

[quote="pickemgenius"][quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Which could have resulted also in a townie lynch.

The only thing it might prove is that chaos and skruffs are buddy's, but nothing more then that, really

.[/quote]


would the bolded statement not be fucking ideal?

that's like best case scenario.[/quote]

Sure that would be the best case scenario, but that's not really "proof" is it. It would definitely

suggest

that they may be buddies, as scope pointed out with the qualifier might, but it's not going to be definite. Let's not jump to anything too soon.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Current nominees:

Ryan - 2 (mneme, ChaosOmega)
DoS - 1 (mneme)
FaerieLord - 1 (ChaosOmega)

I will be announcing my nominees, unofficially, by 10/25. That will give us 2 days for people to refute my chosen nominees, so that I can make changes and get the official nominations done by 10/27. 2 days left folks.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Current nominees:

Ryan - 4 (mneme, ChaosOmega, pug89, KScope)
mneme - 3 (DoS, ryan, pug89)

DoS - 1 (mneme)
FaerieLord - 1 (ChaosOmega)
ckillor - 2 (DoS, Kscope)
ChaosOmega - 2 (peg, ryan)

As of now, I would be sending mneme and ryan to the block. They've been at each other's throats for almost all of day 2, and I think most of us have suspicions of one or the other of them. Please comment. I will not be posting official nominations until right up until the deadline, because I want everyone to give as much information as possible.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Ok, here's the final nomination count:

Current nominees:

Ryan - 4 (ChaosOmega, pug89, KScope, Skruffs)
mneme - 5 (DoS, ryan, pug89, Skruffs, ChaosOmega)
ChaosOmega - 4 (peg, ryan, FaerieLord, mneme)

DoS - 1 (mneme)
ckillor - 2 (DoS, Kscope)

I am officially going to

Nominate: Mneme, Ryan

I'm not feeling the CO wagon. At all. It seems like CO got all the attention he did simply because he had to pick someone at the end of day 1. I'm not saying he's town, as has been pointed out numerous times he could easily be scum with Skruffs, but I don't want to go there yet.

Ryan with his persistent pushing at CO because he had to cast a hammer vote is not sitting well with me, although I get better vibes off of him than I do mneme, who has me completely convinced that he's scum, especially with the last switched vote he made following on FaerieLord's heels.

Sorry I had to wait until the last minute for this guys. RL is not being kind to me.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

'D rather have had a CO nom, but I'll live.

I would love to see a very long reason why we shouldn't evict you, mneme and ryan

See, this is what I'm talking about. WHY would you rather have a CO nomination FaerieLord? I see almost no reasoning for that nomination in any of your posts. Who are you most likely to vote for when it comes time, considering your top nominee is not on the list.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Well it's been pointed out that ryan and mneme have done a lot of talking today. Frankly I'm not sure what else they can say. It may be a good idea for all of us, in the interim, to discuss potential nominees for tomorrow.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Well it's been pointed out that ryan and mneme have done a lot of talking today. Frankly I'm not sure what else they can say. It may be a good idea for all of us, in the interim, to discuss potential nominees for tomorrow.

Vel, did you discuss your own suspicions in any posts between the time you were nominated head of house hold and when you nominated ryan adn mneme? I know you said your suspicions in the post in which they were nominated, but you seemed to avoid it before hand, sayign you wanted to hear other people first.
I think if you want to discuss tomorrow, you should probably go first, since you are, technically, at least one 'cycle' behind everyone else.

No, I didn't discuss my suspicions before I made the nominations. My PM that I received as HoH said that I would not be voting this week, but it also stated that I would be required to cast the tie-breaking vote if one occurred. From that, I decided to keep my mouth shut about who to nominate because I didn't want it to look like I was pushing for one particular person that I would then have to cast a potential tie-breaking vote for or against. I wanted to remain as neutral as possible so that no one could come back tomorrow and say that I was trying to lead the group.

Basically, I'm treating the HoH position as being the head Supreme Court judge, who 99% of the time sits back and lets the other 6 justices argue the case, and then casts the deciding vote if one is needed, and that way he doesn't influence either side of the argument by his position alone.

peg: If you don't feel that there's been enough discussion from either of the two nominees, that's fine with me. I made the suggestion at the time I made it because it looked like things were slowing down,

again

, and I was trying to start conversation back up again. Neither of the nominees had posted up until then, and we need to keep conversation going in this game, especially with all the deadlines.

I'm curious: do you have a suspicion towards one of them? Hard-line proof is hard to come by in these games, so I'm curious if you have a gut feeling towards one of them.

I don't want to say too much about my own feelings because I don't want to influence anything if I have to cast a tie-breaking vote. A lot of people are leaning towards ryan, but I actually think we may have 2 scum up for nomination today. I think that whoever of them goes today, the other needs to be looked at tomorrow.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Well, for what it's worth,

vote: mneme

I think mneme made a big deal over ryan's supposed "slip" yesterday. In fact, I think anyone who put any stock in that "slip" is full of crap and needs to swing, to be honest. I don't like the way mneme ran his votes on day 1 against our first set of nominees, and his overall attitude has been on the flippant side. I think ryan did an acceptable enough job defending himself to have not been the lynch for day 2, but that's in the past now, isn't it.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

coolie. so now its 10 alive 5-3-2 right?
who do you mean by val skruffs?
and yes, to me it looks suspicious that he nominated you and it is deffinently something that will be considered if i ever get to be HOH or its end game or whatever

I'm guessing he means me, just misspelled it. As for Skruffs nomination as HoH, the most logical thing for scum to do in that situation is to pick someone not on his team for nomination. Sure it's WIFOM, but I get the same feeling from Skruffs as DoS does - town.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Vel- not happy with his contribution yesterday- he says he didn't want to seem to be trying to influence the game, but he was actually trying to avoid responsibility for his nominations.

Well, glad to see that you "actually" know what's going on in my mind, I was kinda unsure there for a while...

Look, DoS didn't have much of a hands-on approach on Day 1 either. So if that's what you're going to nominate me for, then I think it's way off, but it's your nomination. In a game like this, it will get easier for the HoH to contribute as the game goes on because more and more people will already have contributed, and the "battle lines" will have been drawn, so to speak.

As for contributions, I fully plan on giving my input today. My top suspect for today is mneme. Just because ryan turned up scum doesn't mean that mneme isn't bussing a partner or on the other scum team. I think mneme going after ryan for a "slip" was a bit too aggressive. Anyone could have overlooked the stuff on the front page. I didn't remember it until it was pointed out, and I think using that as the springboard for the attack was a bit shady, no matter that it worked out for us by nailing a scum.

Second I'm not sure on at the moment. I'll get back to you.

Nominate: mneme

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Peg, vel, mneme, and faerie lord:
It is most likely I will be nominating two of the four of you.

Please state why you feel you should not be nominated over the other three options, and, if you were to be nominated, who you would would most want to nominated against.

Answering is better than not answering, but the most thoughtful answers will carry the most weight.

Chaos- vote this time. I want to see you up near the front before everyone else has made their decision. Agreed?

As for me, I think your case against me isn't the strongest case going, because all I've heard you say is that I wasn't very active yesterday. If that's why you're nominating me, then DoS should be up here for the same reason from Day 1. Come up with something more concrete and I'll volunteer to be up for eviction.

And why do I get the feeling that something scummy is going on here:

That's very interesting what you noticed there Skruffs. VRK would be a good candidate that way. My nominees are going to be VRK and FL

Nominate: Vel-Rahn Koon and Faerielord

Scope, that's horrible. You're riding Skruff's coat tails, and you're nominating FL for no reason? Either you're scum with Ryan and you're trying to put more nails in Skruff's coffin, or you're openly backing your scumbuddy. I don't see you and Skruffs being scumbuddys, nor do I see an experienced player such as yourself doing something that obvious, so I guess that leaves option 1.

2nd Nomination: KScope

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Peg, vel, mneme, and faerie lord:
It is most likely I will be nominating two of the four of you.

Fair enough.

I believe I shouldn't be nominated because by my actions, I've been agressively trying to find scum, rather than, as several of the others, either lurking or blustering. Such actions tend to attract attention -- but they also help flush ants (like Vel) out of the woodwork.

FL has played a very defensive game, which is itself suspicous, and needs a spur to greater and more useful activity.
Vel has defended known scum and made similar slips to Ryan's.
Pickemgenius seems to have spent most of this game posting jokey one-liners, and has been contradictory regarding ryan (plus he voted to keep ryan in when things were still in doubt, which raises the possiblity that he's a buddy).

Nebulous "slips" don't cut it. What specifically have I done. You can't expect anyone to be able to defend themselves agains "similar slips". This looks a lot like KScope's post 525 and Skruffs reasons for nomination - weak. Post 537 isn't helping scope out either.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Guys, I've really got nothing to help you out. I'm town is my best defense for why I shouldn't be lynched. I've had to be prodded more times than I can count in this game, and it's apparent that I haven't been paying attention, just from this:

I think mneme going after ryan for a "slip" was a bit too aggressive. Anyone could have overlooked the stuff on the front page.

The thing is, the thing about 'floaters' would have been in Ryan's ROLE PM. Only scum would have to go to the front page to check on it.

Skruffs is dead on here, a townie wouldn't need to check the front page for the role PM. So my defense of Ryan was based on craplogic on my part, and it looks like I'm going to get shafted for it.

So if you all feel that you've truly caught scum, then lynch me. I know I've been no help up to now because this is just distracting from catching the real scum, and I'm sorry I put the town in this situation where y'all are considering lynching a townie. If there's anything that you need clarifying with, just ask and I'll try to answer questions without making too much more of a mess.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Vel

Frankly you are not helping yourself here at all. I know the sympathy card well and I don't buy it at all. Defend yourself and anwser the question I had first.
Here were the issues I had with you.

Well, for what it's worth,

vote: mneme

I think mneme made a big deal over ryan's supposed "slip" yesterday. In fact, I think anyone who put any stock in that "slip" is full of crap and needs to swing, to be honest. I don't like the way mneme ran his votes on day 1 against our first set of nominees, and his overall attitude has been on the flippant side. I think ryan did an acceptable enough job defending himself to have not been the lynch for day 2, but that's in the past now, isn't it.

It was not crap first of all. It was valid and proven slip. For those who play more then one game like myself I keep all my roles in my inbox so I don't get mixed up in games and always know my role. Plus as HOH you did not have a vote unless it was a tie. Also you stated you didn't want to be bias in the voting process and before the votes are finished you posted this statement.
Obviously I am leaning more toward Vel at this point. But Fairylord if you are a floater you need to contribute more then you have if you are not lynched this day.

I'm not playing a sympathy card. I'm being serious. I haven't been paying attention, I've been a really bad player in this game. Call it what you want, but it's the truth that I've not been at all helpful.

I've already stated that Skruffs had it right and that my attack against mneme was based on craplogic. I don't know what else you want, but there it is. I know I screwed up, and I know that the town is going to pay for it.

As for answering your questions, I think I've answered all but what I think about FaerieLord: I don't know what to think. Going back and reading in isolation, STD looked ok. His posts weren't exactly the model of scum hunting, but a lot of them were made in the random phase so I'm not sure how much to take from that. This post from FL:

I'm happy with a

Evict: Skruffs

as well.

To me both their defences where quite good though trabony didn't really do it for me. His play sucked. While unfair to skruffs, who did quite a good job, I think it is the correct play

Is bleh. If you're that opposed to trabony's play, why vote for Skruffs? Seems opportunistic to me.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

VRK: That post has been mentioned for like one

thousand

time

s

, and I have answered it one

thousand

time

s

. Learn to read before you quote

Fixed

For what it's worth FL, I don't think you're scum. The question was asked by Farside why the person we are up against is scum, and that's the best I could find.

@Skruffs and all: one more time, with clarity: I HAVEN'T BEEN PAYING AS MUCH ATTENTION TO THIS GAME AS I SHOULD HAVE BEEN. Should I have asked for a replacement? Yep. Is it too late now? Probably. Scum hunting requires participation, and I haven't been giving that participation. You can ask the same question a different way from Farside, but you're still going to get the same answer.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I've had to be prodded more times than I can count in this game

Given the mods policy on having to prod people many times, I find this unlikely - you would likely have been replaced by now. Actually, it's my impression you've been pretty active this game. I also note that because we're not told who was prodded, we have no way of verifying that.

I'll post PMs for you when I'm voted out, how's that sound

As for who I think are scum in the game: mneme and scope.