California Trilogy - Dantès in Fresno (Game Over!)

[Mastermind of Sin]

/confirm

As a notice, I am on limited access until I get a better internet provider.

Don't bother reading the rest of this post, it's just me saving stuff for later instead of making a separate post.

Tags removed. Please see the rules regarding allowed tags. - Mod

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod, please edit out the irrelevant parts of my post instead of just the important parts.

Tags removed. Please use bold tags only for voting and unvoting. - Mod

[Mastermind of Sin]

Because I can't use tags to do my normal random vote, I have come up with the next best thing:

Dice Roll:
Original Roll String: 1d20
1 20-Sided Dice Results: 7

Dice Roll:
Original Roll String: 1d19
1 19-Sided Dice Results: 16

Dice Roll:
Original Roll String: 1d18
1 18-Sided Dice Results: 14

Dice Roll:
Original Roll String: 1d17
1 17-Sided Dice Results: 15

Dice Roll:
Original Roll String: 1d16
1 16-Sided Dice Results: 7

Dice Roll:
Original Roll String: 1d15
1 15-Sided Dice Results: 11

Dice Roll:
Original Roll String: 1d14
1 14-Sided Dice Results: 9

Dice Roll:
Original Roll String: 1d13
1 13-Sided Dice Results: 4

Dice Roll:
Original Roll String: 1d12
1 12-Sided Dice Results: 11

Dice Roll:
Original Roll String: 1d11
1 11-Sided Dice Results: 2

Dice Roll:
Original Roll String: 1d10
1 10-Sided Dice Results: 6

Dice Roll:
Original Roll String: 1d9
1 9-Sided Dice Results: 2

Dice Roll:
Original Roll String: 1d8
1 8-Sided Dice Results: 5

Dice Roll:
Original Roll String: 1d7
1 7-Sided Dice Results: 4

Dice Roll:
Original Roll String: 1d6
1 6-Sided Dice Results: 1

Dice Roll:
Original Roll String: 1d5
1 5-Sided Dice Results: 3

Dice Roll:
Original Roll String: 1d4
1 4-Sided Dice Results: 2

Dice Roll:
Original Roll String: 1d3
1 3-Sided Dice Results: 3

Dice Roll:
Original Roll String: 1d2
1 2-Sided Dice Results: 2

Adele
Cogito Ergo Sum
Cubsfan4ever
foolinc
IH
jeep
logicticus
LoudmouthLee
Mastermind of Sin
Mgm
Oman
PlaysWithSquirrels
PookyTheMagicalBear
Skruffs
Talitha
Thesp
Thestatusquo
VitaminR
xyzzy
Zindaras

Vote: logicticus

, Thestatusquo, Talitha, VitaminR, LoudmouthLee, PookyTheMagicalBear, Oman, foolinc, xyzzy, Cogito Ergo Sum, Mgm, Cubsfan4ever, PlaysWithSquirrels, Mastermind of Sin, Adele, Skruffs, jeep, Zindaras, Thesp, IH

Tags corrected. Please use bold tags only for voting and unvoting. - Mod

[Mastermind of Sin]

What is *odd* about it?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I "placed" everyone in that order because it's the list the mod posted on the first page. I "randomly" rolled dice by using the dice function in this forum in my notes section, since we aren't allowed dice tags in this game, for some random reason. I did not have to deal with repeat rolls, because I eliminated people as they were put on the voting list. This is a method that I have always used for mass claims, so you can look in my past games for evidence that I'm not just arbitrarily deciding how to handle this.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I thought you'd know from C+H that Skruffs and sense don't go together Lee....


Anyway time to channel my favorite brit,

vote MoS

for "Highly Motivated Divestment of Responsbility"

Erm, what?

@Skruffs, my point is more about your playstyle than your personal attributes. I can not make any guesses as to what sort of person you are since I've never met you and I will not choose to make any such guesses.

However from what I've seen of your playstyle so far, this is just how you "roll".

Also to clarify my point on MoS, the reason I am highly suspicious of him at this point is not so much the fact that he has chosen to dilute the power of his vote to meaninglessness by supposedly making it completely random but the fact that he spent so much effort in doing so.

If he had the time to roll 19 die and actually list out each player, why couldn't he have spent that time constructively to actually bring out an attack on someone? I can see random voting as a copout to putting in actual effort, but I don't think I've seen people put

actual effort

(which rolling all those dice would be) into making sure their vote is completely meaningless.

In summary,

Die MoS, Die Suck Die!

It took about 3 minutes to do this. Maybe less. One would think that a longtime member of the mafiascum community, such as yourself, would realize how easy it is to make dice tags. It doesn't take any appreciable amount of time. There's more to say on this subject, but I see another post worthy of responding to.

activity much?

There's really only one thing that strikes me so far this game.

I don't ever like people who "say" that random.org affected their diceroll. I feel much more relaxed when people use the dice function (as it cannot be editied, and you're aware of that.) Now, I find people can "fake" random.org or "dicerolls" as such. How did you handle repeat rolls? Especially when you had only 2 or 3 names left? Did you keep on rolling? over and over again? How long did this process take you?

I am questioning if your random votes were truly arbitrary.

Wow, I feel pretty much the opposite. What's the point of truly random votes, and especially of proven random votes? The accusation of divestment of responsibility is something I very much agree with. Prior to this trend of dice-tags (even if this is an imaginary time period), a "random" vote meant "vote that I am claiming is random, but could possibly be merely arbitrary, or even- ooh! - malicious". When a few of these stacked up on someone, the question as to whether there are scumzars on the wagon, either to harm or (yay wifom) clear someone is a kickstart for discussion.

(Seriously, MOS, why not just say it's random, rather than that whole easily-fakeable demo??? There is no level on which I get that, and it even seems a slight "honestly, guys, I'm honest!" move, you know?)

For wilfully ignoring this and saying instead that people should just tick the "good, safe townie" boxes rather than do anything productive... yeah.

Vote: LoudmouthLee

, Mastermind of Sin.

Wow, where to start. First off, my rant about random voting has been made many times before, so if you feel up to finding it and proving that this isn't just me saying it based on my alignment in this game, feel free. I try to make truly random votes, because I am sick and tired of retarded accusations that I am scummy for making a fucking random vote. I do this in every single game I play, unless the game itself prevents me from being able to do so. If you look at my first post in the game, I attempted to do my random voting there, but the mod edited out of all my dice rolls. The fact that it is easily fakeable does not dispute the fact that I obviously

tried

to prove it was random, only to be foiled by a

completely

retarded game rule. Therefore, I did the next best thing. I rolled dice in my notes, and I copied the text all at once. I think if you do the same thing, you'll see that just highlighting all the diceroll boxes at once and copying them will give you the exact output that was in my post. There is no reason for me to have put a retardedly large amount of effort into my random vote, which is what you are saying I might of done. What would be the point in my faking a random vote? Do you know how much effort it would take to set up fake dice rolls in order to get the votes I wanted? I would never waste that much time on a freaking random vote. Also, since making truly random votes is something I always do, regardless of alignment, you can't possibly accuse me of trying to convince people I am protown by doing this. It is a complete nulltell, so you can't make it into a scumtell by accusing me of wanting to make it into a towntell.

Also to clarify my point on MoS, the reason I am highly suspicious of him at this point is not so much the fact that he has chosen to dilute the power of his vote to meaninglessness by supposedly making it completely random but the fact that he spent so much effort in doing so.

If he had the time to roll 19 die and actually list out each player, why couldn't he have spent that time constructively to actually bring out an attack on someone? I can see random voting as a copout to putting in actual effort, but I don't think I've seen people put

actual effort

(which rolling all those dice would be) into making sure their vote is completely meaningless.

In summary,

Die MoS, Die Suck Die!

I think this can be discarded as a null. MoS is a joker. He likes to mess around. This is what I would expect from him regardless of alignment.

Again, I don't see how this has anything to do with my vote. There is no motivation behind my vote other than the fact that I always do this. This is not messing around, this is not me trying to seem protown or scummy or whatever you want to claim. There is nothing to be garnered from it (about me), and there never has been.

Mastermind of Sin: a rather complicated way to do a random vote and fit the posting rule. Then nothing. Smells scummy.

It was not my intention to fit the posting rule with that post. If anything, you can tell by this post that I wasn't planning to let my first post carry me through the rule. I just posted everything in that post to show how it was done. Why I did it is explained above.

Hmm, I think this one qualifies under the 25 word rule...

[Mastermind of Sin]

(Seriously, MOS, why not just say it's random, rather than that whole easily-fakeable demo??? There is no level on which I get that, and it even seems a slight "honestly, guys, I'm honest!" move, you know?)

Are you saying that you agree with me? That was the point that I was making exactly. I don't understand your reason for voting me.

My belief: dice-tags and proven-random votes have no place, while arbitrary and possibly-random votes have a place.

I don't ever like people who "say" that random.org affected their diceroll. I feel much more relaxed when people use the dice function (as it cannot be editied, and you're aware of that.)

Your belief: the opposite (this may simply be my delusion of what you're saying; if so, please clarify).

I've decided to coin a term today.
Metascummy (Adj)
definition: behaviour that is unhelpful to the town but defended as supposedly unscummy due to the user's universal use of the tactic.

MoS is being metascummy, LmL was (in my opinion) defending him. I'm choosing to make a big deal out of it.

Once more: my problem isn't that MoS didn't use the dice tags - he couldn't. It's not that he did - he didn't. It's that he pseudo-used it, and tried to "prove" that he had (see his later explanation and overuse of the term "retarded" for further details).

Random voting is never helpful to the town. It only serves to distract the town as they chase after people for making "random" votes. My point is, you cannot say that I am scum based on this. The logic doesn't work out, at all. If I am scum because I tried to make a truly random vote, then I am scum in every game, and this is already proven false. It doesn't matter whether or not you like the tactic. That doesn't change the fact that you can't try to prove me scummy because of it.


Off to dinner, I'll try to post later.

[Mastermind of Sin]

(Seriously, MOS, why not just say it's random, rather than that whole easily-fakeable demo??? There is no level on which I get that, and it even seems a slight "honestly, guys, I'm honest!" move, you know?)

What incentive would scum have to fake random rolls or votes?

I like that question. I have a couple of ideas. The following scenarios are set in a typical mini.

Scum 1 and scum 2 could arrange before the game to "random" vote scum 3 so that anyone else voting scum 3 would be attacked.
Scum 1 and scum 2 could arrange before the game to "random" vote townie 3 so that they could unvote and defend the townie upon the third vote so, should that that townie ever die, they'll be considered likely GGs be association.

And so on.

Look, the difference between the action and the motivation behind the action is a major pillar of mafia play. Making it crystal-clear is anti-game; it's like pm-quoting (though obviously much less so).

So, let's assume I am scum 1 or scum 2. Where are the second and third votes on logicticus?

Making my motivations obvious is not anti-game. It's allowing you to see what motivations I have without having to make wild guesses.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yes MoS,

I'm not saying your scum because of making a random vote.

I am saying you are scum because of the

effort

you've taken to make sure that your vote is seen as completely random.

Why go to that effort unless you have something to hide?
Heck if you had just voted alphabetically it would've taken much less effort, been about as random, and had about the same impact on the game in terms of voting(which is to say pretty much none at all since random votes are kinda worthless and I doubt we'll move into the stage where Condorcet actually plays out on day one)

What "effort" was involved in making my vote? Deciding arbitrarily to vote in alphabetical order would have used just as much effort, because the player list wasn't in alphabetical order. Also, voting alphabetically is not random. Therefore, it is not something I would even possibly consider doing.

Why go to that effort unless you have something to hide?
Heck if you had just voted alphabetically it would've taken much less effort, been about as random, and had about the same impact on the game in terms of voting(which is to say pretty much none at all since random votes are kinda worthless and I doubt we'll move into the stage where Condorcet actually plays out on day one)

Pooky. I really appreciate this post, as it encapsulates everything I believe in in regards to MoS's opening post.

It looks absoluteloy contrived. I agree with it.

Scruffs, I am listing you on my condorset voting. I hope you see this as good faith. (I still think you're scummy, but that may just be your playstyle)

Vote: MoS

, Adele, Zinadras, Scruffs, [Jeep, MGM, Xyzzy]

Other people have asked this question, but you seem hellbent on ignoring it:

What is to be gained by "faking" a random vote? What is "contrived" about it? What would I, as scum, be planning that would require that I "fake" a random vote, when I could've just complained about not being able to use dice tags and done something else?

MOS -
Well, I think I addressed the bulk of MOS's contribution in the part about Adele, but post 120 kinda just stuck a fork in it. Maybe I already read that post earlier and that's why I had that thought that MOS might do a big blatant thing just to have something to talk about, so, I can't really push it right now, but post 120 ignores a lot of the people of the game (except for a What? directed to pooky) to instead focus entirely on his random voting, which, of course, is something he himself did. >.>
He has said that he does it every game and so it's a null tell and so can't be made into a scum tell. However, saying you can't be attacked because of a null tell while ignoring other parts of the game (which could lead to pro-or-con tells) is Not a null tell. That's what I am getting at here.

Skruffs, it is not I who is focusing on my random vote. It is the many other players who think there is something to be garnered from analyzing it and choose to waste our time by distracting the town from actually chasing scum.

Oh, and please tell me what else important you think has happened, because every time I read the thread, I see a bunch of people bitching about a random vote, and not much else worth talking about. Something about Jeep being scummy, and a bunch of people voting Skruffs and LML for some reason. I don't really see anything I care to comment on, besides debunking the ridiculous arguments made against me.