Open 32 - Pick Your Poison Mafia (Game Over!), before 470

[Rishi]

Vote: dylan41985

I'll never remember that sequence of numbers.

By the way, are we going to be told what roles the Mafia picked for the town as this is an "open" setup?

[Rishi]

Bandwagon

vote: Patrick

Lynch all liars.

How did Patrick lie?

[Rishi]

So... Rishi, are you scum?

Uh... no.

I never thought of the strategy of point-blank asking people whether they are scum or not. I think it works great because no one would ever lie in this game.

[Rishi]

town wants to lynch scum.

That's such a WIFOM point.

Unvote, Vote: Shanba

Mert's being quite fickle here. That's his third vote in two days.

[Rishi]

Is there any chance we can get back to the game at some point, or are you all just going to have little joke bandwagons for the rest of the day?

I don't hope for any substance until someone says something suspicious.

(Whoa, alliteration.)

[Rishi]

I'm not sure why everyone is voting xyzzy. No one has said much of substance about him yet. Someone want to clue me in?

[Rishi]

In fairness to somestrangeflea, I'm in another game with him and he's playing the same way there. I think he is just very, very impatient.

[Rishi]

On another note, I've been thinking about this a bit... I think it's probably unlikely that scum would choose Cop and Doc for the power roles due to the power this'd give, so in my opinion there's probably a vig out there someplace. This could help us in the coming days, for sure. Pure conjecture/WIFOM/whatever, but I'm just thinking aloud right now about the setup.

Thoughts?

Well, I don't think vig was one of the choices. They had to choose between Cop, Doctor and Roleblocker. I think Roleblocker is a no-brainer. The roleblocker can easily interfere with the town if he guesses incorrectly and the Mafia can easily send the person who comes across as the most "Pro-Town" to do the kill.

As for the other role, I'm not sure. If it were me, I'd pick Cop. Having two people out there that can possibly prevent a kill could be brutal.

[Rishi]

Unoffical Vote Count

(1)

Patrick

- (xyzzy)
(1)

Shanba

-(dylan41985)
(2)

Mert

-(Patrick, Schismatized)
(3)

Xyzzy

-(Somestrangeflea,Honary Hitchhiker,Mneme)
(3)

Somestrangeflea

-(JDodge,Ms Piggy, Shanba)

You missed my vote on dylan41985, which is still active. Seriously, if you're going to pretend to be a mod, then at least get your votes right. Otherwise, step away and let yellowbounder do his job.

[Rishi]

In the

sole

interest of not getting deadlined...

Unvote
Vote: Mert

You know... it says in the game rules that we might get deadlined, but there has been no threat of it and it's not looming. You are seriously looking for a quicklynch, which really hurts the town. We're not going to get deadlined if you say something useful and contribute to the discussion. But, instead, you think you can just toss your votes around until everyone randomly votes for the same person. What is your hurry?

Unvote

Vote: somestrangeflea

[Rishi]

Translation: IF YOU'RE GOING TO HELP OF YOUR OWN VOLITION, DO IT RIGHT OR ELSE

Meh. Everything is getting on my nerves today. Maybe I shouldn't play Mafia when I'm in a bad mood.

[Rishi]

Two observations:

1) The mod hasn't posted in this thread since July 8. I third the request for a vote count.

2) I'm a little disturbed by Ms Piggy's voting patterns. So far she(?) has voted for: somestrangeflea, Shanba, somestrangeflea, Shanba, xyzzy, somestrangeflea, xyzzy and now schismatized. That's 8 votes in just 16 posts. And there is never a concrete reason for any of them. Very strange.

[Rishi]

I didn't realize that somestrangeflea was already at five votes. Still, I don't know if it's necessary to unvote, as I still think he's suspicious and he's still two votes away from lynch.

I think xyzzy could probably use a prod. He hasn't posted since July 11. Honary Hitchhiker is also borderline... no posts since July 13.

[Rishi]

I call quicklynch attempt...

If you don't want to get lynched, perhaps you should say something in your defense.

[Rishi]

Need to do a re-read, which is tough to do while at Gen Con. But I will try and make the time. Don't expect anything super-useful before Sunday or Monday though.

[Rishi]

I would like to hear from dylan about this game.

As for Patrick, no one mentioned his post in twilight. I never like posts in twilight and it's awfully convenient to criticize someone for dropping the hammer. Yes, the hammer was way too fast, but there was no need to point it out. I dunno...

[Rishi]

So... you're saying that the hammer was indeed way too fast, whilst critisising me for pointing it out. Ok. What difference does it make that it was in twilight?

It makes a difference that it was in twilight because we didn't know the result yet. Only Mafia would have known for sure that somestrangeflea was a townie.

[Rishi]

Fair enough. I think dylan is more suspicious than you are anyway, so I'm waiting to hear from him.

[Rishi]

*bump*

Prods on dylan and HH, please?

[Rishi]

Oh, and JDodge too.

[Rishi]

Umm, what just happened?

[Rishi]

I think Thin_Man is a robot programmed to automatically respond with something short and not helpful as soon as someone else posts.

[Rishi]

Rishi: attacked Mert for vote hopping. Attacked SSF for being SSF. Was at Gencon (Rishi: I was also at Gencon -- how was your con?) Very little content in total.

Hey there. I will note that you kind of say the same thing about every player, so it's hard to really differentiate what the degree of your suspicions are. It's true that I might have attacked ssf for just being himself, but that was only my second game with him. I didn't know if he always acted like that or if this was something different. I no longer feel like a newbie, but I think I was at that time. (Remember, this game was in hiatus for over a month.)

I know I haven't given much content, but there really isn't too much to say. The first day's lynch happened with relatively thin evidence and Day 2 hasn't been a huge improvement over Day 1. I will participate more once the game starts to get going, but I don't really see a reason to say much just yet. You can accuse me of lurking, but I generally answer anything that's directed at me. If I missed a question or a comment about me, let me know.

Anyway, I don't have any major suspicions at this point. I figure someone will slip up sooner or later.

By the way, Gen Con was fun. Exhausting, but fun. I think I averaged about 3 hours of sleep at night. Did you play any Werewolf? If so, we might have been playing together. Weird.

[Rishi]

Er, TM? Jack? I listed everything everyone did. Not much significant happened -- but IMO, those who went with the flow and didn't really do much are most suspicious. I'm pretty convinced Rishi's scum, actually, and your (lacksidasical) defense of her is noted.

I picked you over Rishi because your attack on me is also fairly scummy in form -- coming into the game and following while not really giving anything resembling reasoning, whereas Rishi mostly just hasn't been here. Over Patrick because you're more scummy than he is (duh).

By the way, Rishi = he.

So you're fairly convinced that I am scum, huh? Just because I haven't been posting much and not been making any arguments?

Well, here's an argument. Even though I am your top suspect, I think you're focusing your attention in other places, because, well, it's much easier to start a bandwagon elsewhere than it is to start a bandwagon on me.

Let's face it, Thin_Man's original barrage of posts was kind of annoying. As we saw on Day 1, this is a group that can be easily convinced to lynch the annoying guy. (Thin_Man has been less annoying since then.)

[Rishi]

Well, here's an argument. Even though I am your top suspect, I think you're focusing your attention in other places, because, well, it's much easier to start a bandwagon elsewhere than it is to start a bandwagon on me.

That is a terrible reason not to vote for you. Absolutely terrible. If he thinks someone is scum, he should vote for them.

But he's not. Why not? Maybe I'm fishing for reasons, but if he's absolutely convinced, then there must be a reason he's going elsewhere.

[Rishi]

Now you are saying that you are convinced she's scum.

No, I'm not. I said "I'm pretty convinced she's scum". That's as much saying "I'm convinced she's scum" as saying "I'm almost sure you're a townie" is saying "I'm sure you're a townie."

Again...

Rishi = he.

Are you even reading the thread? You claim to be doing analysis but you miss simple things like this.

[Rishi]

I'll post once I've had a chance to read the thread - probably tomorrow.

Well, Setael, you've stepped into an awkward situation. But there's a lot of people waiting to hear what you have to say.

[Rishi]

I don't see what's a big deal here. I was frustrated because we'd lynched early and based on not much that I could see. Also, I'm allergic to lynching without a claim because it's terrible play. As for posting in twilight, I don't think I can remember a game I've played in before this where it wasn't allowed. And I've played in over 30. Maybe the games I've played in have been a series of anomalies (shrug).

You've played in over 30 games where posting was allowed in twilight and you don't understand why you're being criticized for it? It's a common argument in games I've seen.

[Rishi]

Rishi: yes, I get that you're a guy. But it's a name that codes as "female" in my head and we were discussing a specific quote.

I don't know how I missed this before.

But Rishi is my real name, so I'm a little taken aback by that statement. This has nothing to do with the game, however.

[Rishi]

Rishi: Typically, in Romance languages (which English is, sort of), names ending in vowels are female. Not a constant, obviously, but takes wrapping one's head around when one encounters an exception, particulary one not using a final "Y". I'll try not to make that particular mistake again, though discussing quotes is an obvious exception.

No worries. End of discussion about this.

Patrick, any reason you made that post but then backed off on Ms. Piggy/Jack today?

Interesting point. Patrick?

Also, to all of the people who were waiting for dylan's replacement, I think you can speak up now. I had completely forgotten that some of these people were in the game.

[Rishi]

Well, I think we're going to need some

PRODS

The following people have not posted in a while:

JDodge - Last post August 24
xyzzy - Last post August 26
Thin_Man - Last post August 29
Jack - Last post September 1

schismatized also hasn't posted in a while, but Thesp is searching for a replacement.

[Rishi]

I am lurking. Discuss.

Typical JDodge.

I do have a question, which I doubt will get answered, but here goes...

JDodge, in your previous post, you stated you were waiting for dylan or dylan's replacement. Well, Setael is here. Any thoughts?

(JDodge will now answer, "No.")

[Rishi]

I don't know what to think of Shanba's reasons for pulling his vote off xyzzy and not bringing him up again. Could be legitimate, could be just an excuse. Now shizmatized is being replaced and won't be able to explain his reasons. I was the most suspicious of those 2, but I'd also like to hear from the others - Ms. Piggy was replaced, but JDodge, Rishi and Mneme could all give their reasons.

I never voted for xyzzy and never really suspected him. So, no explanation necessary.

[Rishi]

I'm lurking because I have nothing to say.

[Rishi]

I'm in a few games with JDodge. Unfortunately, most of them aren't completed and he's still alive, so I don't know how much I can tell you. He always plays similar to this.

In the one completed game I have with him, he turned out to be scum and he lurked about as much as this game.

[Rishi]

Shanba's defensive and lurking play doesn't make me like him much better in this game.

This statement seems a little odd to me. There are other people who are lurking more rampantly than Shanba. In fact, Shanba posts more than you do in this game.

The people I think we need to hear more from: xyzzy, Jack and JDodge. I don't necessarily expect JDodge to post more, but the other two, I think, are usually more talkative than this.

[Rishi]

I'm not defensive! [/defensive]

Saying someone is defensive always makes me laugh.

You still haven't finished your self-analysis.

[Rishi]

Deadline:

Two weeks from this post - October 3, 7:30pm Central US Time.

A simple plurality will lynch at that point. Ties will be broken by Longest-Held-Last-Vote.

Man, I need to pay more attention. I completely missed this.

[Rishi]

I don't know if I buy this anti-Shanba thing that's going on now. The lie was so minor that it hardly even qualifies.

I still really want to hear from xyzzy and Jack's replacement.

[Rishi]

Well, sorry I haven't gotten a chance to post in Day 3 yet. I really think we need to hear from xyzzy. He's a top suspect and the fact that he is so rampantly lurking has got to mean something. I am going to assume that Thesp has prodded him. But I don't feel right about lynching someone who hasn't had a chance to post.

I remember reading somewhere (and I doubt I can track it down at this point), either on the wiki or on one of the message boards that the first person to congratulate the doctor either is the doctor or is scum. So Guardian's post did raise my eyebrows. Guardian is also slightly less talkative in this game than in others. When he's town, he keeps insisting he is town. In this game, he's not really doing that. I don't think it's scummy enough for a vote, but, as I said, it raised my eyebrows.

[Rishi]

[*]My playstyle in this game is

intentionally

different from my typical style. This is to both avoid people being able to metagame me, and to see if this is more effective. Your read "Guardian town didn't play like this" is accurate -- but unless you can demonstrate that "Guardian scum

does

play like this" your argument is a null tell.

Actually, this is the response that I was hoping that you would give. You've dropped off my radar for now.

[Rishi]

Wow guys, I am so lost and confused in this game. I honestly can't keep up. I'm sorry, i'm going to have to reread. The quantity of replacements makes this much harder to keep up with.

It's pretty bad. Even the mod had to be replaced!

But, we still have five of the original players left (even if some are lurking) and the group of players seems pretty stable for now.

I really want a Setael lynch. Mneme's behaviour towards him and his play d1 combined makes me think he's very likely scum. Nothing else I've seen is as convincing as the case on him though Setael's play is better by leaps and bounds).

Interesting. Also Setael = she.

[Rishi]

Wow. This game is starting to become entertaining.

Right now xyzzy is my #1 candidate for scum, but I don't feel right pushing for his lynch without him saying something. But maybe that's his strategy.

Thesp:

Can you confirm that xyzzy was prodded at some point and that he picked up his prod?

[Rishi]

I am very interested in xyzzy and Setael today. Jdodge and Shanba can wait.

I really want to hear from xyzzy, it definitely seems that he is intentionally lurking at this point.

I honestly never really saw the suspicion on Shanba. I think he's town. I find JDodge hard to read, but I agree that he can wait.

Setael is someone I am keeping an eye on. I definitely think her arguments seem weak at points, but I'm not sure if they're just weak arguments or actually scummy arguments.

I've said it a few times today, but xyzzy worries and frustrates me. I think he knows that we're talking about him. What incentive would a pro-town player have to lurk so heavily?

Maybe a little pressure will draw him out. I'm surprised that he only has the one vote on him right now.

Vote: xyzzy

[Rishi]

<sigh> Did this game die again?

I swear. This game is cursed.

[Rishi]

Shanba sounds like a good idea for a wagon

Vote: Shanba

try harder.

I don't think you're scum, but you have been acting somewhat cocky in this game lately, and I'm not sure why.

In any case, I don't see this game moving forward until we get a replacement for xyzzy.

[Rishi]

Isn't SSF dead in this game?

[Rishi]

Still waiting on xyzzy / xyzzy's replacement.

I do not like the way Setael has been acting lately. She has been stirring the pot, but I'm not sure what she's trying to accomplish.

Besides, I'm waiting to hear what she thinks of me before I say what I think of her. (That's a semi-joke.)

[Rishi]

The difference between SSF and Ms Piggy in my eyes was that it looked like SSF was looking for a quicklynch while Ms Piggy was just hopping around for no reason. At that point, I didn't see the need to move my vote (I'm guessing, I didn't go back to the post). I think Ms Piggy just wasn't a very good player, which is the insight I gained during the one-month hiatus in this game.

I thought Patrick explained himself well, which is why I dropped the argument. He's definitely been acting more pro-town lately.

The vote on xyzzy is a pressure vote. The reason he was my number one candidate for scum was that no one else really fit the scum pattern at that point. Besides, there was evidence that xyzzy was reading the game and not posting. The lurking looked intentional.

Until we get a replacement for xyzzy or a post from him, the vote stands.

[Rishi]

I found xyzzy's posts scummy in and of themselves, and his intentional lurking only added to that.

Rishi, why say

Until we get a replacement for xyzzy or a post from him, the vote stands.

?

If you think his role is scum, wouldn't you keep voting him even if a replacement shows up?

Well, I probably would continue to vote him when replaced, but the point that I was emphasizing is that I will definitely not unvote or switch my vote at any point before that.

After the replacement shows up (or xyzzy himself), it would depend on what they say.

[Rishi]

Look at the individual posts by SSF and Ms Piggy. There is a world of difference. SSF kept trying to push for the game to move towards a lynch while Ms Piggy was simply capricious.

I do want it both ways. It's a pressure vote on someone who I think is likely scum. Anyone besides Setael confused?

I pick xyzzy over JDodge because I don't think JDodge is scum. QED.

[Rishi]

I pick xyzzy over JDodge because I don't think JDodge is scum. QED.

I don't know what QED is supposed to stand for, but unless it's supposed to indicate a joke of some kind, you're still not answering my question, which is: If your only reason for thinking xyzzy is scummy is the fact that he's lurking, why would you choose him over JDodge? Do you think JDodge is NOT lurking?

QED = quod erat demonstrandum. It's Latin. You can look it up if you want.

JDodge is lurking, but in the past month, JDodge has posted ELEVEN times. Sure, most of those posts don't have a lot of content, but at least they are there.

In the past month, xyzzy has posted zero times. Zip. Nada.

That's a clear difference.

You're reading too much into the fact that I don't throw suspicions about all willy-nilly. Basically, I'm saying that Player A exhibits Characteristic X, which I think is scummy. You say that Player B also exhibits Characteristic X, but to a lesser degree, and yet I'm not suspicious of Player B. Therefore, I must be scum. Great logic there.

[Rishi]

My lack of suspicion on JDodge also comes from metagaming. I have been in several games with JDodge and this behavior is not unusual for him, even when he's town. When JDodge lurks, it's a null-tell. Besides, it's not as if JDodge had NO content in his 11 posts in the past month, but little content.

Double standards may be "worth noting," but do you think I deserved a vote from Setael because of it?

Bookitty is seeming town in her two posts. I'm going to wait for the game to develop a little before switching my vote. I don't think she's in danger of being lynched any time soon.

[Rishi]

And if he's not willing to pay attention, or post any content, then really what good is he to town anyway?

Unhelpful, scummy town is nearly as bad as scum. I don't know which JDodge is, but he's definitely one of the two.

The point of saying that "JDodge always plays like this" is to point out that we shouldn't lynch him just for his playstyle. The theory is that lynching a townie, even if they are unhelpful, is not good for the town.

We could get lucky and get another save from one of our power roles, but, barring that, we can have a maximum of two mislynches. On a third mislynch, town will lose the game.

So, I agree that JDodge could be more helpful, but I also don't think he is scum and shouldn't be lynched just because we don't like the way he plays.

[Rishi]

I think Bookitty has been looking fairly pro-town in her last few posts.

Unvote

for now.

I may need to do a re-read. Thin_Man has been awfully quiet lately.

[Rishi]

I'm not sure what to do with JDodge right now.

I could conceivably see Setael and Bookitty as scum together.

It is interesting that Setael never really implicated xyzzy and attacked those who were suspicious of him.

[Rishi]

I'm just not feeling this case at the moment. I would like an answer about why Rishi "was hoping" that Guardian would respond a certain way, but I'm not hopping on this wagon without better evidence than this.

When I asked the question to Guardian, I was thinking about what answers would clear him in my mind. I was "hoping" he would say that he was changing up his playstyle a little, because that was the only way that it would reconcile the inconsistency I sensed in my mind: 1) His play seemed a little off. And 2) He still seemed pro-town.

Guardian has pointed this out, but we've played enough with each other that we have a recent read on the other person. I was kind of hoping he would be town, because I didn't want to be way off base.

This doesn't clear Guardian, by any means. I don't know for a fact one way or another. But I feel confident enough that I don't think I'd look at him again on Day 3. If we're both still here on Day 4, then I might re-visit the issue.

And you're right I haven't pointed a lot of fingers in this game. I know that Setael pointed out that I went from not suspecting xyzzy at all to suddenly making him my #1 suspect, mostly because of the lurking. What she fails to consider is that a very large patch of time passed between those two points and other people made cases against xyzzy. Just because I didn't chime in with "I agree" or "You have a good point" doesn't mean I wasn't convinced by arguments of others.

I will do a re-read and weigh in on who I think is scum soon. I don't want to sit on the fence, because I know that's scummy, but I am honestly not sure what to think at this point.

I don't like list-making, because sometimes it gives too much information to the scum. I will say that I need to do an isolated re-read on everyone, but I'll be paying particular attention to: dylan/Setael, Ms Piggy/Jack/White, and HH/Thin_Man.

[Rishi]

Okay, I did a re-read on the three players that I said I would:

Honary Hitchhiker/Thin_Man -- HH seemed scummy to me, but, based on my previous games with him, he also doesn't know what he is doing. I think Thin_Man was hanging back a little too much for my tastes, but didn't seem too bad. I noticed he defended me on more than one occasion. If he is scum, it's possible that it was a buddying tactic, but I don't think he's scum.

Ms Piggy/Jack/White -- Ms Piggy was playing terribly. Jack and White both seem more town-ish to me. Jack was pushing for a mneme lynch early.

dylan41985/Setael -- On a re-read, I don't really see the suspicion that arose on dylan. He really didn't do much of anything in this game. Setael, however, has more than made up for that. She got on the mneme bandwagon late, perhaps to distance herself. She has been posting a lot of accusations. First, she accused Shanba, then backed off. Then Patrick, and backed off. Then she got into an argument with Guardian, and backed off. Now me. And, with her last post, she cast some minor suspicion on Bookitty. She hides her weak arguments behind a lot of words and quotes. This is not an OMGUS vote (it would have come sooner after her vote for me if it were), but I just think she's jumping around too much.

Vote: Setael

Thesp

- I know there haven't been a lot of votes lately, but can we have a fresh vote count?

[Rishi]

Next scumtell. Rishi's sudden jump onto the xyzzy wagon after never suspecting him all game.

I never voted for xyzzy and never really suspected him. So, no explanation necessary.

His next post about xyzzy:

Right now xyzzy is my #1 candidate for scum, but I don't feel right pushing for his lynch without him saying something. But maybe that's his strategy.

He hasn’t given any reason for changing his mind. Has said he wants to hear from xyzzy, but never said once that he thought he was scummy or suspicious until he is the popular vote and all of a sudden xyzzy is his #1 candidate.

I was doing a re-read on myself (yes, I do that sometimes when bored) and this is a bald-faced lie. In between those two posts, I questioned xyzzy's lurking twice. And there was also this little nugget:

Well, sorry I haven't gotten a chance to post in Day 3 yet. I really think we need to hear from xyzzy. He's a top suspect and the fact that he is so rampantly lurking has got to mean something. I am going to assume that Thesp has prodded him. But I don't feel right about lynching someone who hasn't had a chance to post.

Setael, it's not so hard to find someone scum when you have a vivid imagination.

[Rishi]

Saying "he's a top suspect" is not saying "I'm suspicious of him". Also, saying "the fact that he is rampantly lurking has got to mean something" is also not saying "I'm suspicious of him." You went from being absolutely convinced he was Town and saying you had never suspected him at all, to being willing to vote him just for lurking. Doesn't take a vivid imagination, but thanks for playing.

They're my words. I know what I was implying.

And as I said before, a lot of time had passed. Besides, why is suspicion on someone not credible unless you build it gradually?

And how is this any different from the way you are playing? You were never suspicious of me before you went on your little rampage.

[Rishi]

EDWOP: Also, you clearly lied. You did say that it was my "next post about xyzzy." Even if the intervening posts didn't spell out suspicion, in your eyes, they clearly mentioned him and show that he was on my radar.

[Rishi]

His next post about xyzzy:

Explain to me how this statement is not a lie. It was not my NEXT POST about xyzzy. You clearly manipulated the facts to make it look as if I was saying that xyzzy was pro-town in one post and then, ten minutes later, completely flip-flopped. The least you could do is own up to your misrepresentation.

And I don't think I ever said that I thought xyzzy was town. I'm going to call you on that. I might have said that I didn't see the suspicion on him or that there wasn't much of a case on him, but I never called him town.

The fact is that there was evidence that xyzzy had been prodded and Thesp was not seeking a replacement at the time. To me that says that he was consciously and deliberately lurking. There are other people who lurk, but this was off the charts. This is how things looked at the time. Now, it's quite possible that xyzzy just lost interest in the game, which is why my vote is no longer on him, but you have to look at my posts in the context in which they were made. You can make anyone look scummy by pulling out isolated quotes.

[Rishi]

Hrm.

Vote Setael

.
I'm ready for a lynch, and I'd prefer it to be her.

At first, this didn't sit right. Like you were popping in from out of nowhere and jumping on a bandwagon. But I looked back at your posts and you were pushing for a Setael lynch for a while.

Still, I think if Setael is town (which I doubt she is, but I can't know for sure), I'm going to take a very close at Shanba tomorrow.

[Rishi]

Still, I think if Setael is town (which I doubt she is, but I can't know for sure), I'm going to take a very close at Shanba tomorrow.

1-2 mislynch much?

I didn't say I was going to lynch you. What I was saying is that I don't think you're scum at all right now - you're almost completely off my radar. Tomorrow, that won't be true, if Setael turns up town.

Stop alienating the other players. It's annoying and, if you're really town, it's not helpful.

[Rishi]

I didn't say I was going to lynch you. What I was saying is that I don't think you're scum at all right now - you're almost completely off my radar. Tomorrow, that won't be true, if Setael turns up town.

I think it's reasonable for him to question this, even if you didn't use the word lynch in particular. What makes Shanba worthy of attention tomorrow if Setael is town, as opposed to other people?

Stop alienating the other players. It's annoying and, if you're really town, it's not helpful.

I don't understand this either.

It is reasonable for him to question it, but it's the way that he did it. It seemed somewhat abrasive to me. It seems that Shanba has been playing like that in this game (especially lately), and it's not helping his case.

Shanba is worthy of attention because of the fact that he has been pushing for Setael's lynch early, consistently and vehemently.

[Rishi]

Thin_Man,

Doctor

, has been slain.

Day 4 begins.

With 8 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

We have 7 alive. 4 to lynch.

In any case, town, I think we're in good shape. We have three lynches left and only one scum. I don't see Guardian or Shanba being the final scum at this point. JDodge and Patrick are maybes for me. But I think the two most likely to be scum are Bookitty and White - would like to look closer at voting patterns, but I think we can easily win this one.

[Rishi]

fos: Rishi

I didn't like the Setael Rishi interaction near the end of the day, and Setael naming me and Rishi in that thing I quoted still makes me a bit suspicious.

You're really going to take Setael seriously after she turned up scum?

[Rishi]

Rishi, I'm going to try and interpret Setael's actions.

As Shanba pointed out, though, maybe she was just trying to WIFOM us about that. I'm not really interested in lynching you today, but that comment by her nags me.

Jdodge, as frustrating as he is, I have no idea of his alignment. Just his unwillingness to help out is suspicious to me.

Patrick is probably fourth for me, just by process of elimination. I think there is a good chance it is Bookitty though.

That's a fair assessment. I don't think that Setael would have distanced from the last Mafia, though. She did some distancing from mneme, and I don't know if she'd distance from both her scumbuddies.

By the way, I think Thin_Man was a weird choice to kill. I'm sad that we lost the doctor, but it does eliminate someone that I found kind of suspicious.

[Rishi]

You could say that. ^^

One of Rishi/Jdodge should die today, with perhaps a side order of Patrick.

I don't necessarily expect a reason out of JDodge, but why?

[Rishi]

I don't usually like the "process of elimination" argument. Especially with 7 players left.

And you obviously find JDodge and Patrick suspicious.

Why do you think Bookitty and White are pro-town?

[Rishi]

I didn't see Jack as scum, but I am less sure about Ms Piggy or White. That's what makes it hard.

[Rishi]

Ms Piggy is a non-starter, as she was clearly a terrible player.

Good point.

I do still want to hear from White. Is he the only living playing who hasn't posted on Day 4?

[Rishi]

Hmm... I'm at L -2. That's fine, but I think we need to hear from White or his replacement, since at least a couple of us found him scummy.

We get three lynches left in the game. If you guys think I am one of the three most scummy, then you should lynch me. At least it will narrow down the list of candidates.

I'm wondering if the last power-role should claim? It will at least clear one townie, which is helpful. And if the last role is a cop, then it could clear several people.

[Rishi]

I dislike Rishi's positions towards the scum - specifically, he spends a lot of time criticising Setael early in the day while keeping a useless vote on jdodge. Also, he mildly attacks mneme when mneme attacks him - yet fails to vote for anyone at all that day. He often seems to be attacking lots of players at once - he'll suddenly say he doesn't like something or someone while keeping his vote on lurkers/flakers or even on no one at all.

Happy birthday!

I don't think I ever had a vote on JDodge. I think you mean xyzzy.

Yes, I did attack Setael while leaving my vote on xyzzy. But I also had made a statement that until xyzzy (or his replacement) posted, I would not retract my vote. Someone would have jumped on me for waffling if I had switched my vote so early.

I basically waited until Bookitty started looking pro-town before I removed my vote. The reason that Bookitty jumped back on my radar today was Setael's defense of xyzzy. (I don't generally look for scumbuddies - I find it more useful to think about individual scum.)

[Rishi]

No want wants to play?

Thesp

- What is the status of White?

[Rishi]

I'd like Rishi to explain exactly why he thinks that rolefishing is helpful to town, though, especially with only one scum left.

You might have missed that, Rishi. Why do you think it's helpful to town to know exactly who the powerroles are, at this point?

Oh, I did miss this.

I find it helpful because, as I said, we have three lynches to go. If we can eliminate one candidate, it becomes a little easier to make the correct choice. Asking for a claim at this stage of the game isn't uncommon.

If we have a cop, I feel that a claim is best. The cop can clear him/herself and hopefully at least one other player. If we lose the cop, then we lose that information.

If the remaining role is a roleblocker, I think a claim tomorrow (if we haven't won by then) might be best. The roleblocker, with one Mafia remaining, acts like a cop. (i.e. "I roleblocked Rishi and the kill still went through - he can't be scum.")

I am going to presume that the one No Kill we had in this game was likely a doctor save rather than a roleblocker block.

But narrowing down the list of candidates with so few players is more helpful than you think.

[Rishi]

Mm. Eh. Bleh. Considering xyzzy was inactive sitewide (as was pointed out at the time, and could have been easily researched anyway), what did you hope to gain from leaving your vote on him? Even if your explanation holds true, that implies that you were more interested in looking pro-town than placing your vote in a useful place.

Also, if you don't generally look for scumbuddies, how does Setael's defence of xyzzy factor in? That's looking for a scumbuddy :\.

To tell the truth, I'm not convinced Rishi is scum, but a couple of things motivate me to

Vote: Rishi

. First off, I don't see anyone who's particularly scummier. Second, even if this is wrong, we're far enough ahead that we can afford a mislynch to rid ourselves of a scummy townie - leaving him alive if he's town creates a pitfall for later. Thirdly and most importantly, however, is that the game is stalling. Town letting the game die here may well throw he game to the scum, when by all rights we should win it from here.

Where did you get the idea that xyzzy was inactive site-wide? I went back and counter. His last post in this thread was on September 11. Bookitty's first post was October 16. During that period, xyzzy made 120 posts elsewhere on the site. I would not call that inactive. All the evidence points towards intentional lurking.

What I mean when I say I don't look for scumbuddies is that I noted that Setael was defending xyzzy on Day 3. I didn't keep my vote on Bookitty because I didn't think "Setael and Bookitty must be scumbuddies. Therefore, a vote on one is as good as a vote on another." I was pretty sure that Setael was scum and on Day 3 I wasn't concerned who her partner was. Now I am.

I really don't understand why everyone considers me scummy. I think mneme and Setael were both pushing for my lynch. Everyone just thinks they were distancing?

But, if you all really think that I am scummy, then it's best that you get rid of me now. I don't want to be left in the game in a lynch-or-lose situation if people are going to pick wrong.

If your argument is that the scum wants this thread to die and stall, then I am also not sure how you can find me scummy. I am one of the more active players in this game, and I continually try to keep the thread going when the game dies.

Don't lynch me out of sheer laziness. I find that insulting. Find a real reason to vote for me.

[Rishi]

Correction - Shanba is also voting for me.

[Rishi]

Based on other games, Sikario8 has absolutely no friggin' clue what he's doing.

That doesn't make him scum though.

I will note the "Should I just hammer Rishi?" comment reminds me of dylan's comment on Day 1 where he asked permission to put a vote on ssf. And dylan turned out to be scum.

I'm torn.

[Rishi]

half-assed plan; however:

i was kind of hoping someone'd be like "yeah" and then i'd see where I went from there. i had no intention of actually voting - i haven't read anything yet - but i felt it'd give me a little insight as to the personalities of the outspoken

I think all the remaining players in this game have played enough games that no one would fall for that. The only person left (besides you) who is "new" is Bookitty, and I think she's a better player than that.

[Rishi]

Looks like I made the Top Three!

(Waits in anticipation..)

[Rishi]

I actually agree that some of Guardian's logic is a little weak, but the problem with JDodge is that he is almost unreadable. If JDodge is the last scum, he's fairly dangerous.

But I'm still not interested in lynching him today. I'm more inclined to go for Bookitty or Sikario8.

[Rishi]

I think it's fairly lazy to lynch JDodge just so that you can satisfy your own curiosity about whether he is town or scum.

[Rishi]

Rishi, if that's what you think I said then you missed the point.

I realize that's not what you said, but I think that might be some of the motivation behind your reasoning.

The reason you have pro-town reads on everyone else is that you probably have no read on JDodge. Lynching him is one surefire way to get a read.

[Rishi]

But I did vote for Setael.

[Rishi]

I hear what everyone is saying. There are definitely scummy things about my play. For example, I have a terrible voting record. I voted for ssf, I didn't vote for mneme and I came on to the Setael lynch in the middle. I still contend that, as both mneme and Setael were trying to get me lynched, that it was a little too much for distancing. If a majority of you find me scummy, though, then I think you should lynch me. I would rather you make the mistake now than on Day 6.

I do regret not being on the mneme lynch. I think if things went a couple days longer, I would have voted for him.

JDodge is dangerous because he's difficult to read and especially easy to mis-read. I think, if he's scum, there's a good chance of a mistake in the endgame.

We haven't really talked about why Thin_Man was targeted. I think his death also makes me less likely as scum. If I were scum, why would I get rid of someone who was defending me?

[Rishi]

Okay, I looked at Rishi's claim that

as both mneme and Setael were trying to get me lynched, that it was a little too much for distancing.

Mneme did say "Most suspicous: Rishi, Thin_Man, Patrick." And to Jack: "I'm pretty convinced Rishi's scum, actually, and your (lacksidasical) defense of her is noted. I picked you over Rishi because your attack on me is also fairly scummy in form -- coming into the game and following while not really giving anything resembling reasoning, whereas Rishi mostly just hasn't been here." Under pressure, does land a lonely vote on Rishi, but removes it fairly quickly to vote for Shanba.

So mneme wasn't really trying to get Rishi lynched, so far as I can see.

Okay. I will concede this point. I went and did a re-read on mneme. I just remember his suspicions on me and the vote, but it looks like he wasn't pushing as hard as I remembered.

Rishi, are you still convinced that JDodge is not scum? This comment:

I think, if he's scum, there's a good chance of a mistake in the endgame.

seems like a change of heart from this one:

So, I agree that JDodge could be more helpful, but I also don't think he is scum and shouldn't be lynched just because we don't like the way he plays.

Have you changed your mind? If so, why?

Sorry if I didn't make things clear. I don't think JDodge is scum. I was just speaking in hypothetical terms.

[Rishi]

Man, I am not sure about Sikario8's vote. However, I'm starting to lean against him as scum for a purely metagamed reason. White had been absent for much of Day 3 and then was replaced on Day 4. Obviously, the Mafia sent a kill during the night, and White has been completely absent from the site during the entire Night 3.

These meta-game arguments have gotten me in trouble in the past.

[Rishi]

2 things I'd like to clarify before any possible claim.

Man, I am not sure about Sikario8's vote. However, I'm starting to lean against him as scum for a purely metagamed reason. White had been absent for much of Day 3 and then was replaced on Day 4. Obviously, the Mafia sent a kill during the night, and White has been completely absent from the site during the entire Night 3.

These meta-game arguments have gotten me in trouble in the past.

Can you in any way explain this argument further? I think you'll find nothing beneath the surface.

I agree that it's a weak argument.

But, my only point is that, during the entire Night 3 phase, White has not posted once on the site. In fact, he hasn't posted at all anywhere on the site since October 19, which leads me to believe he has permanently disappeared.

It's POSSIBLE that he popped in (after a prod or two), sent in a night kill and then disappeared again without posting in any games, but I find it somewhat unlikely.

[Rishi]

I'm not convinced that JDodge is scum.

Patrick, Bookitty - What do you guys think?

[Rishi]

So who do you think is scummier? Honestly, we need some movement.

I've already said. I think Bookitty is the best lynch for today.

Also, even if I were thinking about hammering JDodge (which I'm not - at least not right now), I wouldn't do so without a claim. I don't want to risk losing our other power role.

[Rishi]

Everyone should weigh in - make sure we don't have a third claim. I say we lynch one of them today and the other tomorrow. Doesn't matter on the order.

Waiting for Sikario8 and Bookitty to check in before voting.

[Rishi]

I'm assuming Bookitty's vote for JDodge was a 3rd vote, and not a hammer btw. So I can still post this.

Correct. Sikario unvoted.

[Rishi]

Anyone have anything left to discuss? I'm thinking of dropping the hammer. There are three possibilities here:

1. JDodge really is the roleblocker. I think we'd be okay if we just lynch Shanba tomorrow then.
2. JDodge is scum. Then we win. Duh.
3. JDodge is a townie. I don't think JDodge would do this. I have seen games that were a lot more emotional than this one and don't think JDodge would snap like that and set up a fake claim. Even if it were true (which I highly doubt), we would still have two lynches after this.

By the way, Shanba should announce who he is going to roleblock tonight. The Mafia can't plan around it too much, and, if Shanba is killed, then at least it clears one player.

[Rishi]

Waiting to hear from Shanba before hammering...

And I will tell you that Guardian *WILL* explode if we pick wrong when he's in an endgame.

[Rishi]

JDodge, why is blocking Guardian better? Rishi, who do you think should be blocked if JDodge is town?

If JDodge is a townie, I would go with you as the blocked player. I'm a little more suspicious of Bookitty and possibly Sikario8, but I think you would have the greatest value as a confirmed townie.

In other words, I find that confirmed townies tend to get a little bit of a leadership role in games. It's definitely not a position I want to see Sikario8 in, and you have more experience than Bookitty.

[Rishi]

You realise that Bookitty is confirmed innocent right?

Oh... duh. If Shanba really is the roleblocker, then she is. If JDodge is the roleblocker, then Sikario8 is innocent.

Okay, I'm dense.

Yeah. Patrick for roleblocking.

[Rishi]

All right. I think this is dragging on needlessly. Shanba should roleblock Patrick tonight, just in case JDodge is a townie.

I'm dropping the hammer.

Vote: JDodge

[Rishi]

Victory! Yay. This was a long, long game.

This game started off insanely dull for the first day and a half. Then, it was a great game. Very nice group of scumhunters.

[Rishi]

At the end I was still pretty close between thinking it was JDodge or Rishi.

I have no idea what it is. I really, really TRY to act town, but somehow I always come across as either scummy or unreadable.

[Rishi]

Yeah. That's why I don't replace into games too much. I do it once in a while, but I've found in pretty much every game I replace into, I inherit a bad position. Part of it is that the "lurking" that causes a person immediately rates as suspicious for some weird reason.

[Rishi]

I feel slightly less like an idiot now it turns out jdodge was scum as well.

My choices were Rishi/Jack/no-one (Thesp ended the night before I sent one for obvious reasons).

Answer to ssf's question 1.

[Rishi]

Really fun game. Setael had me utterly fooled. I don't think I'd ever have voted for her, so I'm glad others were smarter than I was there.

Thanks for letting me replace in.

You did well, Bookitty. I thought a xyzzy lynch was inevitable, but you definitely turned the tide there.

Sorry I kept wanting to lynch you.