Open 30 - Fire and Ice (Game Over!) - before 470

[mneme]

Just replaced in. I've re-read, but I'm still not really feeling my feet.

That said, I understand we're under a deadline, so

vote: crub

[mneme]

Didn't see much substance to your bandwagon, nor xyzzy's, nor AE's.

Crub's looks like it's at least based on an OMGUS vote. Actually, more than one; he OMGUSed xyzzy, too.

(that said, I don't get MBL saying crub protected xyzzy. Is there reasoning there?)

[mneme]

So I didn't.

unvote
vote: crub

What's the evidence that CtD's "who should we lynch today, glork" was buddying up rather than asking for an opinion?

And I ask again -- what's the meaning of this:

vote: Crub

for quick protection of xyzzy.

Probably not the smartest thing for me to do ... but if you're going to vote me you might want to unvote xyzzy first so that your vote actually counts.

I don't see crub's protection of xyz. But crub copped to it, which is even more curious.

[mneme]

I don't see crub's protection of xyz. But crub copped to it, which is even more curious.

That's not the post where I'm supposed to be protecting xyzzy thats the post where I'm pointing out that if MBL can't read the mod's unvote/vote policy on that same page, then I'm not putting much stock in his opinion of the rest of the thread.

Ah.

Anyway whats wrong with protecting xyzzy? Theres only something wrong with protecting someone if theres a good case the person you're protecting is scum and theres not much of a case against xyzzy at the moment.

This is a no-doc, no mason game.

Thus, if you're protecting someone for reasons that aren't in the thread, there's good reason to believe you're scum with them given a counter-argument.

I believe Glork's doc claim.

[mneme]

Oh, given Glork's claim, I'd prefer to lynch crub over xyzzy, but will switch to xyz if it's needed for a deadline lynch, since xyz lynch is better than either doc or no-lynch.

[mneme]

Er...given that I (mostly) don't play Mafia on weekends and we went to day on Sunday, my lack of posting can't be that suspicious... I did lose track of the game latish on Thursday, though. (though fortunately, my vote wasn't needed to lynch xyz.

FOS: LML

. It's obvious why the scum didn't target glork -- he's too obvious a target for both, and if both target him, they both lose their kills. Optimal play is to trick the town into lynching our doc (fat chance), or a random kill of glork vs someone else -- with a < 50% chance of hitting glork to reduce the chance of kill nullification. Regardless, we have -plenty- of time to worry about Glork as doctor -- since even if he is scum, he gives us a garunteed scum lynch later in the game via a counterclaim -- when the time is right, the "real" doctor can counterclaim, and we can lynch both in whatever order makes sense until we get a scum.

Though...if LML is the last Fire mafia, I could see him having tried to kill Glork, failed, and now knowing Glork is Ice. But that's a thin reed upon which to hang a man, much less two.

I'm not sure whether I want to know who Glork protected. Obviously, the Fire mafia does -- they missed their kill, so they want to know whether they found Ice last night (lynch!) had bad luck and crossed with a protect. And in a way, the town's interest coincides with theirs -- if they found Ice, we do want to lynch them (Ice, that is), whereas if they targeted whoever Glork protected, we probably don't.

Beyond this -- I need to reread.

[mneme]

Ok, I've reread a bit.

The only three people who never voted xyz were me, stewie, and vendagoat.

Both Stewie and I promised to vote xyz if needed for the deadline vote, but didn't/didn't need to.

Therefore,

vote: Vendagoat

. Hey, goat -- who'd you try to kill last night? Maybe they're Ice!

[mneme]

Autumn: having reread and done the numbers, I agree. I think xyz's survivng partner is either Stewie or Vendagoat -- and think it's somewhat more likely that it's Vendagoat. (though both xyz and Stewie going ice-hunting on page 1 does push a Stewie/xyz link).

(PS: why can't I use bbcode links with text in this forum?) Or is it just preview?

Mod edited to fix links...

[mneme]

Finger of Stupidity: MBL

You obviously haven't played against me much before, since you think I'm an idiot. I'm insulted.

I'm pretty sure Vend (or Stewie) isn't sloppy at distancing -- he just didn't bother (though if xyz's partner is Stewie, he did try, at least a little). With xyz.

Moreover, your not-even-a-little-disguised "must have thought about this a lot last night" comment on my analysis misses the fact that it takes any competent scummer all of five minutes to come up with the approximately correct "kill the doc" odds for the mafia (much more exact than I gave, certainly) in this game. Which is why I think LML, who seems to be playing dumb on the subject, is suspicious.

If you're going to make an attack against me, how about one that doesn't assume I've been playing this game for less than a month, rather than more than four years, huh?

And yes, before anyone brings it up, my "stewie or vend must be Fire" argument assumes !bus. Assuming a bus is WIFOM, because it's in scum interest to drop an early bus less than 50% of the time.

[mneme]

Hey mneme, I'm sure you're god's gift to mafia, but how am I to know that considering you posted half as much content D1 as you have in fifteen hours today?

*shrug*. There was less to say on D1, and I replaced in, which usually keeps me off balance for a bit.

Today, there's lots to say -- among other things, the town having found scum -and- the doc games. And, of course, I was called out. But the fact that Vendagoat is the only person to neither vote for nor pledge a vote for xyzscum isn't something I made up, you know.

Nor something I knew before I started running numbers on the game.

If you'd ever (?) played with me, you'd know I'm usually about this talkative, not as quiet (which is to say, 5 posts. As opposed to 3 posts today. Are you paying attention, MBL?) as I was yesterday.

Anyways, trying to link me with the Goat is kinda funny, given that we're much more likely to find out that he's Fire after we lynch him -- not Ice.

[mneme]

FOS: LML. It's obvious why the scum didn't target glork -- he's too obvious a target for both,...

:eyeroll:

So, you're telling me that NEITHER group NKed Glork because we'd mislynch him?

No, I'm saying that neither group NKed group because both were afrad/hoping the other group would NK him. The advantage of killing the doc -- especially in a game where 1-2 of the other players are already NK-immune -- isn't that hot compared to the disadvantage both scum get by losing a night's worth of kills.

Moreover, often enough, the "you didn't die, you must be suspicious" card is too tempting to play -- which is why I think MBL may be Icescum.

[mneme]

Moreover, often enough, the "you didn't die, you must be suspicious" card is too tempting to play -- which is why I think MBL may be Icescum.

Sorry -- why I think -you- (ie, LML) may be Icescum.

[mneme]

LML: I'm not going to go down the WIFoM road of "it might not be a tell because you're too good". Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I've caught very good players in common tells before, and I'm sure it will happen again.

That said, you weren't the only one to comment on this. In fact, the other person (after you, though), was...surprise! Vendagoat! Again! He just keeps looking better and better.

[mneme]

LML: I already have. In fact, I've made two. Read the thread.

MBL: Er...what? How do you know Glork protected you? Did you get a "I was protected" message? Did it say it was Glork? And how do you know what Glork's inner thoughts on this were? This post makes no sense. Or is that the point?

[mneme]

Jokes are, in fact, often scumtells. Not because scum can't be funny (it so can) but because in the past, scum have often ended up being he ones who made the jokes. I'm not about to come up with a theory for -why- scum joke more than town.

[mneme]

Vend: it's not a huge deal. Just develop a solid history of humor and you can get people to take it as a style point -- assuming you're ever cast as town, that is.

[mneme]

Mert: well, joking about being scummy is still always scummy. But that's kind of a special case.

[mneme]

vote: AE

There is, of course, a chance that Glork protected her. But odds are with us here, especially since there was a time for him to respond to speculation claiming he didn't protect her.

[mneme]

STOP STOP STOP.

No.

Those are 2 VERY quick votes, and should be unvoted. With Glork dead, and someone (I need to find out who, and will on reread) told Glork to NOT give his protection.

As you say later, that was me.

Until it became very clear who the Fire mafia was, there was good reason not to find out Glork protection -- it helped the (fire) mafia as much as it did us if not more.

Obviously, once we figured things out and thought we had an idea of who the Goat hit (and it was very likely that this was AE long before Vendagoat self-voted and revealed his kill, which is why I believe him aside from him not having a reason to lie), it was advantagous if we found out whether Glork had targetted AE.

By the same token, I'm pretty sure if he -had- targetted AE, given the suspisions raised yesterday, he would have said something.

Now, we have a situation. We will NEVER know if AE was protected by Glork.

Yes, we will -- once we lynch her and find out she's Ice, we'll be pretty damned sure.

While I normally don't appreciate a quicklynch, I think one's entirely reasonable here -- there's really nothing for the town to discuss, and much to gain.

[mneme]

entirely out of line:

On a personal note I'd love to know how she figured out the pairing in 31 posts.

That, coupled with a few things he said earlier, made me feel like I was being accused of cheating.

I am not an alt, and I have no other accounts on this board. I did not engage in any off-thread communication. I did nothing against either the letter or the spirit of the rules.

Clearly.

That was totally out of line.

Oh, btw,

confirm vote: AE

Re quicklynches--while the town could use some discussion on the remaining Ice, losing one more person tonight really doesn't hurt us that much -- whereas too much discussion today gives the scum clues for who to kill. Usually, the scum have so much more to lose during the day than the town does -- but that seems less likely here.

I've got some ideas on who might be AE's partner (and who might not be), but those can wait for if I'm still alive tomorrow.

[mneme]

I am pro-town, so I will not quietly let myself be lynched. But I also don't really want to spend all day defending myself.

Try to look at this objectively - if you were in our position and this happened to another player, would you really want them to live to endgame?

Apologies for a bus?

Until it became very clear who the Fire mafia was, there was good reason not to find out Glork protection -- it helped the (fire) mafia as much as it did us if not more.

Mneme, you were on the Vendawagon the whole of yesterday, right from the very beginning. You

had

to have, at least to an extent, believed we were about to lynch the other Fire.

Indeed. And I got an inkling that AE was the Ice Vendagoat had targeted several posts in. But the end of the day crept up on me, and I didn't realize that I should have pushed Glork for AE vs !AE until after seeing Vendagoat's twilight-entering post. That said, I'm sure quite a lot of players were hitting themselves over that one -- since really, the question was up there since, oh, 243 or 247 (247 was a gimme).

I was also, at the time, avoiding telegraphing my suspicion of AE (for the same reason I'm avoiding telegraphing today -- it only helps the scum)

Question to everyone: if you were the doc, who would you have protected N1?

I think this is a non-question -- if I were the doc, I'd have come out on Day 1 to counter-claim Glork. But if I were Glork (which is more to the question)? Dunno. Maybe CTD, maybe AE (second to last on the xyz bandwagon, with Glork as the last), maybe Sefer.

I've got some ideas on who might be AE's partner (and who might not be), but those can wait for if I'm still alive tomorrow.

So you have other suspects you'd like to look into but you don't want to reveal them... why?

Because if they're wrong, I don't want the scum leaving me alive because of them. If they're right, I don't want the scum killing me because of it.

And frankly, they're not that important -- I don't have any more info than anyone else, and I'd rather have the scum make their kill tonight with as much info as there is in the game right now, not as much info as there is +50%.

If I weren't pretty confident of AE as mafia, I might think differently (then it would be interesting to hear of cross-suspisions), but assuming she's Ice, all cross-suspicions tell us at this point is who the Ice mafia will be more benefitted by killing.

If you genuinely fear dying tonight then why are you unwilling to share your thoughts today and instead rush toward a quicklynch today?

Of course I don't fear death. It comes to all in time. Who knows? Maybe me? Maybe even tonight.

But I'd really rather that I (and the town) win, and therefore see no reason to give the scum extra info at times that don't help the town -- whether I live to see the endgame or not.

There's also another reason a quicklynch is advantagous on very likely scum (catching hesitation from a partner on voting) -- but that mostly doesn't apply here, since AE is a good enough lynch that I almost expect a bus.

[mneme]

Stewie, just correcting your quotes...

vote: AE

I think the chances of Glork protecting AE are low enough that this might be worth a shot. If we are wrong, however, then we'll be at 7, then 6 after the night. Therefore, if we do lynch wrong and I'm the one offed at night, don't forget to do a no lynch to bring it down to 5 players.

Minor FoS: Stewie

. That's a very rapid second vote. While agree with what you're saying in your post, I don't see any reason to just speed through today without discussion. I'll revisit this if AE turns up scum as a potential attempt to speed bus her.

And I'll revisit this as a potential attempt to tie me to your scum buddy. :)

Oh, try not to call him "goatse." It brings back horrible flashbacks. :shock:

[mneme]

LML: uh-huh. Clearly, the AE lynch is right by the numbers.

Can you give anything except gut sentiment to back up your hunch?

[mneme]

Crub, I would wish AE dead regardless of what my alignment was. She's too likely, by cards showing, to be scum to live through the day, and lynching her tells us which tells to pay attention to tomorrow.

Do you have a play in mind that's better than a 75% chance of scum? Because that's at least as good as the odds we have on AE. I don't even trust the votes on her to not be bussing -- because honestly? If I were scum and her partner (neither), -I'd- be bussing her right now.

[mneme]

AE, you post well, but I'm really hoping you're actually scum since you're easily the best lead we have, rather than Fool's Scum.

That said, if you -are- scum, 335 is a very good post; it's going to be pretty much impossible to separate out the WIFOM from that (if you're scum. If you're town, it's an interesting analysis, though one wonders why why mostly gave your analysis on those you -didn't- suspect the most.

[mneme]

1) Neither WizardKat nore nmeme did anything much at all on Day One. (Although...Wizard did random-vote Lee and then mneme said he didn't see much substance to the Lee wagon (103).)

Yup. And to be fair, I only had about two days to play in.

2) On Day Two, he says this: In 220 says

And in a way, the town's interest coincides with theirs -- if they found Ice, we do want to lynch them (Ice, that is), whereas if they targeted whoever Glork protected, we probably don't.

But today, he doesn't seem to care at all that I may have been protected, (indeed, see his first post:

Of course I care. But I"ll lay my bet on better-than-even-money every time.

Anyway, the "the town's interest coincides with theirs" was fishing -- I figured if it lures Fire into a false sense of security and makes them freeer with their info, it's all to the good. It was clearly far more in the town's interest to find the last Fire mafia and lynch them than to find the first Ice mafia (which was why I didn't comment when LML started impugning your virtue). Like you, Vend's self vote caught me by surprise -- so I went from "glork shouldn't reveal his kill...hmm, if Vend's fire, he probably targetted AE, given his first post, but I don't want to spend too much time on that today...oops, day's over." If I'd had more time twix 2 and 3, I'd have asked Glork whether he'd killed you. That said, there were actually 26 hours between LML's musing and Vend's self-vote, with Glork posting a few times in between.

end so fast, and I highly doubt Glork was either. And, if he

had

wanted to speak, he could very easily have said "I did not protect AE" (which seems to be the hypothoses you're putting forth) without saying who he did protect, if he wanted to keep it a secret.

As in, saying "no" is positive, but saying "yes" is assumed by him saying nothing? Possible. But I'm still not buying.

Especially given:

LmL: Under your current theory, if you think that AE is an IceScum, that would mean that one of the people attacking her is Fire who targeted her last night. I'd like you to analyze each person who has posted suspicon of AE, and I'd like you to explain which among them you think is most likely to be our final FireScum.

Glork was aware that AE was drawing some heat as possible ice. He did not attempt to deflect this suspicion, despite knowing that our killing a Fire would automatically mean his death (and did attempt, as did the rest of us, to find the last Fire).

Therefore, it's highly likely that he did -not- protect AE.

And...no scumhunting? I did plenty yesterday, finding Vend via entirely (well, mostly) different means than you did. And I didn't know two players (Glork and your partner) who -definitely- weren't Fire for me to eliminate.

Confirm vote: AE

[mneme]

mneme, Glork didn't kill me, that should be obvious. He might have

protected

me though, which is the point you're ignoring.

I'm not sure what you think I said.

So you're now saying that Glork should have immediately responded to LmL's musings

He did respond. Specficially, he prompted LML to identify a Fire who might have tried to kill you. As I quoted above.

In fact, 254 and 249 are both very strong suggestions that Glork did -not- protect you, and thought that if you'd been targeted by scum, you were IceScum.

Lee, of whom he was

extremely

suspicious and actually

voting

, to flesh out his opinions maybe, just maybe, because he was trying to get a read on

Lee

and who his partners could be?

Whatever. I clearly can't win with you.

Not if you're scum, no. That's kind of definitional on the "Goal: kill all the townies" thing.

The fact that Glork was voting LML doesn't contradict the fact that he responded to the whole 'AE is being targetted by a lot of likely Fire, so she might have been the result of their "investigation"' thing without helping your case at all.

And no, I'm sorry, but we have what amounts to a cop investigation on you indicating you're scum. It's possible the cop was roleblocked or whatever (in this case, that the "cop" ran up against a doc protect) but there's no amount of day posting that should save you here.

[mneme]

Crub: do you think there's a greater than 50% chance that glork targetted AE on night 1?

[mneme]

Crub: actually, I thought I looked scummier before I got a lot of pushback on the (obvious) AE lynch.

Given that level of resistance, it seems fairly clear that her partner isn't bussing her.

As it is, AFAICT, the only scummy thing I've done is strictly predicated on AE being innocent. (ie, if AE is scum, it's not that scummy).

Autum and Lee is possible. Autumn and Crub is possible. So is Autumn and someone hiding in the shadows, rilly -- but really, all of this deserves more analysis tomorrow -after- we get to see who Autumn's partner kills, because as I've said before today -- -if- Autumn is scum (I think she is), then any further analsys helps the scum more than it helps the town.

Autumn: of course you can with me, if you're town. You can win if you're dead, you know.

[mneme]

This is complete conjecture, but it could be that this breadcrumb was picked up by somebody who is not sharing it due to being scum.

If this breadcrumb isn't the stuff I pointed out (which seemed to me to be negative, not positive), I certainly haven't seen it. Something to ask after the game, I guess.

Again, this intrigues me. There are no further power roles to accidentally out so what position does this put the scum in where their choice of kill is changed by more discussion and analysis? All things being equal, we're all as likely to die as the next as the scum will know we're all townies anyway. It will likely come down to a combination of a move that will confuse the town and the elimination of a threat, perceived or actual, to the town.

*Notes freudian slip* :)

To the scum, you mean?

Basically, at this point, the scum kill, since there are no power roles, is likely to be most guided by "who will be the greatest threat to the scum" (with the risk of attempted kill analysis to somewhat discourage this, but WIFOM and related confuse-a-town issues to further confuse that). Effectively, we can't rely on looking at a kill to try to figure out who the scum are -- but the scum -can- use day speculation to judge who's the biggest threat who won't just point directly to the scum by the nature of the kill.

Weighing "every townie's analysis gives us one more head to work on the problem" vs "every townie's analysis gives the scum a bit more of a tool to manipulate the town via their kill", I'm inclined to think that the latter is more important (Assuming an AE lynch today, thus discounting the influence of discussion on today's lynch) than the former.

If we were a newbie game -- with a very small number of strong players and a larger number of weak ones, there'd be more on the side of "we need everyone's input just in case they die" (because certain people would be substantial blows to the town). But as it is, throwing out info just to inform the scum kill doesn't seem like it benefits the town -- even if it's opinion info, not role info.

(Interestingly, my ideas about keeping mum on theories could be seen as much as a way of avoiding a scum kill as drawing one. But really, it's that I want them to make their kill with as little info as reasonable).

And Autumn -- I've liked a lot of your play this game, but I'm not really liking the appeal to emotion in your last few posts.

[mneme]

First, defense:

My play's been fairly consistent. Day 1, I replaced in late, and waffled about finding my feet. Day 2, I did some analysis of day 1, and independantly found Vendagoat as scum, then talked him into revealing his kill, mostly as a probing move against a probable newbie scum that happened to work (ssf: what's suspcious about this? Do you think I was cheating?). I also waffled on Glork revealiong (waffled. Not "asked him not to reveal". Read the damned post). Day three, I latched onto Autumn's obvious scumminess and pushed as hard as I could to get her lynched. And argued for less info, not more -- as while I generally think info favors the town, this is much less true in a game with one functional mafia left.

I can't bounce back and forth right now (posting from a cellphone -- I'm finally on a subway heading home), but from memory, the pbp would be:

LML: Probably town. IIRC, he pointed out Autumn as possible scum before anybody else did -- pushing the point with Glork based on Vendagoat's not-really-an-OMGUS vote. Since this likely would have gotten Autumn lynched even if Vendagoat hadn't imploded (certainly, I was planning on pushing her on day 3 based on this even without the confirmation).

Crub: A big WIFOM. Pushback on Autumn (but would he have done that if he'd known she was scum? maybe...), and I found his day 1 play scummy for some reason.

SSF: not a lot there -- was he for or against the Autumn wagon? (or neither?) Went after the easy attack (me) today. Craplogic/facts in his PBP give me a bad vibe. But I need to reread him.

Mert: I got nothing.

Stewie: I find the quickvote a town sign -- Autumn was the obvious lynch and probable scum, and the town gained nothing from discussion.

Re no lynch: I want to keep things open whether we'll do it today or tomorrow. Mind, the same logic applies to info before a no lynch as to info before a forced kill -- but we've had enough info today already that I don't see much harm in posting.

[mneme]

Why is that? Everyone left is a townie or Ice Scum. This makes no sense.

Untrue. Townies are not commodities.

The only info we (ie, the town) can get are town tells and scumtells -- we can't get connection info because there are no connections left.

By the same token, scum are out of the role hunting stage, as the town has no roles left -- but getting a full idea of the political map can allow them to influence it by killing off dangerous political opponents.

This might rebound, of course, but if we rely on this, we can get WIFOMed to death easily -- so on a metagame level, it's pretty good.

[mneme]

unvote

I think Stewie is better lynch than mneme today

False dualism, anyone?

[mneme]

I and Stewie are not the only lynch candidates for today. We're not even the best -- I'd likely have been a lot less pushy on a bus (as I'd have been -fine- with us lynching someone else and, *darn*, entering lylo today), and Stewie pushed AE multiple times, including today.

Ok, I've reread much of day 2, which is when most of the more interesting things happened.

Interesting stuff (from my perspective):

Stewie voted AE for most of day 1.
Mert pushed AE (if we found Fire among crub & vendagoat).
LML pushed AE fairly extensively on day 2. Defended her for a while on day 3.
Somestrangeflea: has been pretty scummy -- but CTD posted a lot of scumvibes from AE, probed AE, and otherwise interacted with her too much, IMO, to be likely scum with her. Oh, and voted her on day 1. Did not end up on AE's bandwagon day 3.
Crub: defended AE on day 3, including attempted deflection to myself FOSed AE on day 2 Almost no interaction with AE before that.

I think I know why Crub has been pushing me or stewie...

FOS: Crub

[mneme]

For example, both you and Crub FOSed AE earlier on the game, which makes it hard to decide between you two.

LML's behavior is actually quite interesting.

If Vendagoat hadn't claimed his kill, it would have been LML's analysis that best pointed to Autumn. But his defense of her on Day 3 raised the possibility of a superbus.

I do think LML feels more townie than Crub does.

FWIW, I wasn't doing "I know who's scum, but I'll tell you tomorrow" (though you can paint it like that if you want) -- it was more "I have some feelings for who's more townie and who's more scummy -- but I don't want to get left alive because they're wrong or killed because they're right".

[mneme]

I don't want to get left alive because they're wrong or killed because they're right".

So, Mneme, you're playing for yourself, now for the townie faction?

Did you even read what you quoted?

Seriously. How could "I don't want to get left alive" (because of wrong opinions I reveal) be "playing for myself?"

Crub: your case is very WIFOMish.

LML: curious about your case on Mert; most of mine is circumstantial.

I'm currently leaning toward crub (and as I've said before, away from Stewie and LML) as scum, but am interested in cases on Mert and SSF. Looking at my analysis in 398, I think our remaining Icescum is Mert or Crub -- Stewie was very consistently anti-AE even before we had a scum implosion, and kept on being so yesterday, while CTD's interaction with AE doesn't feel at all like a scumbuddy relationship to me (and LML's case I've already discussed in depth).

And crub? "I'd likely have been less pushy on a bus" isn't WIFOM -- it's pure strategy. Scum benefit more from a failed bus attempt than a successful one in almost all situations. Therefore, they're generally (and certainly, I, when scum) far more willing to accept failure than townies who are genuinely convinced of someone's scumminess. As scum, pushing a partner's lynch to the point where I become the leading candidate isn't great unless they're doomed anyway -- a little less pushy still breaks connections and might end up letting someone else leading the town down a blind alley. Regardless, that argument's not that important; it's not my job to analyze my posts in any case.

[mneme]

And crub? "I'd likely have been less pushy on a bus" isn't WIFOM -- it's pure strategy.

I don't know why you're saying this to me, that was my thoughts exactly :) I thought you pushed way too hard for you to be scum, when IMO it is much easier for scum to hop on and ride the bus.

Indeed. But this was responding to your post 399.

[mneme]

Bah. Prodded. (after 6 posts?). Am at Gencon, wish y'all were here. Yes, this is a phone post.

I'm not really sure which of Mert and Crub to push, but standing back doesn't help, and mert's play is much more subtle-scum than crub's.

For now, at least...

unvote (if I'm voting anyone)
vote: mert

[mneme]

Yah. There's no reason you need to make people unvote before voting -- it's not much more work on the mods' part to just allow votes to supersede prior votes.

Great game (and a perfect game!), though.

And props go to LML on Day 3 for pointing out why Mert was scummier than Crub -- I'd noted him mostly by elimination in my PBPA, but was still thinking of Crub as scummier until that post.

I don't think it serves to dwell on Vendagoat's parting shot -- but I think it's a reasonable enough "giving up" final move. We really -did- have him nailed to the wall, what with his cues both on day 2 and day 1. In truth, since AE was very much the primary ice suspect coming out of day 2, his self hammer was more likely to hurt town (make us mislynch if she was protected) than ice -- it was sheer chance that she was both ice -and- protected.

It is the nature of the setup for scum to prefer a town win to a win for the other faction -- if anything, this is the one thing that pushes things a bit in the town's favor, since without scum trying to lynch other scum, the town has little chance.