Mini 478- Simenon's Too Much Scum: Game Over

[Rishi]

Hey. Didn't realize this thread existed yet. I'll vote for one of the people who hasn't posted yet.

Random.org says

Vote: AlSleet

[Rishi]

Unvote

Vote: SirWario

Remember, there's only 8 players. Doesn't take much to lynch someone.

[Rishi]

I love how Guardian casually claims (sort of) to open Page 2.

Though Guardian's odds aren't really 50/50 of hitting scum. Even if he is pro-town, there are still 7 other players... 4 town, 3 scum.

So, Guardian... bad at math or do you know something we don't know?

[Rishi]

Oh yeah, because claiming to be pro-town is

such a dead giveaway

.

Yup. The Mafia never lie. I don't really see what the advantage would be.

[Rishi]

AlSleet, your defense of Rishi when you had no reason to defend him

yet

-- he has not yet responded himself and his wagon is at lynch -3 -- has been noted.

Giving him reassurance that he is safe(r) because you don't find him scummy is just bad play.

I don't

think

you as scum with Rishi would be that obvious, but think before posting, especially when responding to things aimed at other players.

Hi cpe .

It was just a reading error. I was skimming the post a little fast. Besides, I was mostly kidding when I threw some suspicion at you.

However, I will take note that you're being kind of aggressive and defensive today. Hmm. Have we already exited the joking phase? That was fast.

[Rishi]

OK. I wish AlSleet hadn't mentioned that it could have been just a reading error, but that can't be helped.

It wouldn't have changed what I said. I might have used different terminology if AlSleet hadn't said anything, but the gist would have been the same.

We're having a conversation out in public here. I'm not asking anyone to jump to my defense, but if anyone has an opinion, I invite them into the discussion. I'm not sure why you just want a response from me and me alone.

That I take issue with. You are backtracking from your suspicion... and how did you give any indication that you were joking? First, you imply that your suspicion was real (and is now gone because you misread), and then say that you were just joking. That doesn't sit well for me.

The indication that I was joking comes from the fact that my logic was completely and utterly ridiculous there. Being bad at math is not a scumtell. That's like saying, "Oh.... typo. Let's lynch him."

Aggressive? Sure -- being aggressive and pressuring players helps find scum imo. Defensive? I get defensive if I need to, but I don't see how I am being defensive in this game, yet. Where do you see that?

I again note how you are casually throwing suspicion at me by saying "oh look at Guardian. hmm, aggressive

and

defensive. let's be careful with that one."

I think you're being defensive because you're attacking the first person who said anything remotely negative about you. I always view aggression as a form of defensiveness. But, that might not be fair. You admit you're being aggressive. I will reserve judgment on whether or not you're being defensive.

I love joking, but I really dislike the joking phase. Games I am in tend to move fast .

Fine with me. I think we get along well enough that we can skip past the conviviality. Though I'm not sure how Simenon will react when he returns if he finds that the game is already over.

[Rishi]

OK. I see no reason not to take this at face value. One question though -- how might have your terminology been different? I'm curious.

Perhaps I would have said, "Oops. Looked at your post too fast. Sorry." I guess I'm just talking about semantics, though.

Envision a scenario for me: I am town, and I want to figure out your alignment. You do something that could be seen as scummy, and I ask you why you did it and if you support it and what your mindset is when you did it.

Then, another player jumps in and says "oh, well Rishi obviously did that because of XXXX, his post wasn't scummy at all, move on." You could be scum, and hadn't even thought of XXXX. This other player just provided you with an easy defense when he had no reason to do so (unless you are scum and you are his partner).

So, when I ask people questions (or when anyone asks anyone else a specific question) it is generally a bad idea to comment upon that question before the person it was asked to gives a response. It is fine to comment on whether you find someone scummy (or not scummy -- but only if they are under attack -- in small games with no doctor randomly saying you find someone pro-town is very bad!), but not to address questions asked of them before they have a chance to address them.

Fair enough, but there is always value in seeing who jumps to another's defense. That sometimes is worth more than the answer to the original question. I always note it when someone comes into an argument that isn't theirs. I think that often says more than the rhetoric that some folks toss around.

I am not seeing that -- you found my mistake suspicious, and directly said you wondered if my mistake stemmed from being scum and not having a clear perspective on how things would look from a townie perspective.

I am really not seeing how it was a joke. That being said, I will consider the possibility that you meant it as such... Just saying that it "was a joke" is an easy way to back away from something. Again, this is why I hate the random phase.

Okay, fair enough. We can tuck this away for a while, for now. It's fair if you want to bring it up again, but I think we should drop it.

For the record, from my perspective, the random phase is definitely over now. Any future "jokes" must be clearly labeled as such, or I will view them as being serious.

I have a dry sense of humor sometimes. But I'll try to be careful.

So, The Fonz, you've been quiet through this discussion. What do you think?

[Rishi]

not only did you both you (twice) and the mod misspell my name (wtf, it's written right there), i find your playing style annoying (no offense). i'm sure the feeling is mutual, anyway. i thought more than just me had voted for you. so yea.. let me uh.. do this.

Unvote; Vote: reeshy

whoops typo can't speel naims/press backspace
seems most scum to me with his awkward defensiveness...

There's a few things about this post that bothers me.

1) How xerebz casually slips the third vote on me, citing fairly weak reasons for doing so. He just spit out what someone else said.
2) How xerebz criticizes people for misspelling his name and then doesn't even come close to spelling my name correctly! (See #3)
3) I think the reason that xerebz couldn't spell my name correctly is I hadn't posted in a while at that point, and I wasn't really the topic of conversation at that point.
4) Also note how close xerebz's vote came after the vote count! He had forgotten that I had two votes on me.

This feels a little like newbie scum looking to jump on a bandwagon.

Unvote

Vote: xerebz

[Rishi]

Quick

Unvote

.

Sorry.. didn't realize xerebz was at lynch -1 and wanted to give him a chance to defend himself. I've had 5 hours of sleep in the past three days! Honest mistake.

[Rishi]

EBWOP: I didn't realize that my vote had put xerebz at lynch -1. He wasn't already there. I didn't lynch him and try to avert it.

Woo... don't play Mafia tired. Also, kids, don't drink and vote!

[Rishi]

I agree with The Fonz.

Vote: xerebz

[Rishi]

Well, he was the scummiest, but I can't say I agree with lynching him before the replacement has time to make an argument. I only left my random vote on because I didn't think anyone would hammer.

This is why I hate twilight posting (I know it's allowed in the rules of this game). AlSleet was trying to cover his ass here. If xerebz turned out to be scum, then AlSleet gets credit for the lynch. If xerebz turned out to be a townie, he looks innocent.

Having said that, this isn't necessarily scummy behavior. A townie would have just as much interest in covering his ass as Mafia.

[Rishi]

It's just my tendency to leave my random vote on someone until I see something major that would make me change it. I hadn't really decided who I thought was the scum in this game but I found xerebz the scummiest. So, it was beneficial in a way that I had had my random vote on him from the beginning, however I did not anticipate such a speedy lynch and I'm a little suspicious of Rishi for hammering that quickly without hearing anything else from the victim.

Well, I think this is a fairly weak argument. At that point, xerebz made it clear that he did not want to play any more. There was absolutely no way that we were going to get any more out of him, unless he was replaced. I thought, "Well, we're going to wait a couple days for a replacement, and then his replacement is likely to be lynched very soon after entering the game."

(Of course, it wouldn't have actually happened that way. If someone halfway intelligent replaced, then he would have claimed SK Finder immediately, which would lead to a night death for his replacement.)

I think we have to accept the fact that xerebz played an absolutely horrible game and, in our frenzy, we mistook bad play for scummy play. In hindsight, we should have asked for a replacement

The thing I'm curious about is that there were five people involved in the lynch, and yet AlSleet and I are the only ones who are getting any flak for it.

I think it's awfully convenient that, towards the beginning of Day 2, SirWario came out gunning for the lynchers and ac1983fan (after The Fonz said something about him). But let's not forget that SirWario was one of the five votes.

I don't think this behavior is scummy enough to vote. Besides, we should slow down. If I did my math right, we're not necessarily in lynch-or-lose, but if we hit a townie and the SK hits another townie, the Mafia wins.

[Rishi]

To be honest, this is one of the scummiest excuses in the book, apologising for scummy behaviour and hoping others forget about it.

If I wanted people to forget about it, I wouldn't have mentioned it at all.

[Rishi]

Keep in mind we do have a 50% shot of hitting some kind of scum right now. If someone seems scummy, they probably are. I don't see ac1983fan as Mafia, but he could be the SK.

[Rishi]

Vote: acfan

I've got a strong gut feeling on this guy. And also, he FOS'ed Guardian on Page 2, why not vote? The vote you already had was random, and Guardian was a townie of course.

You FOSed me and didn't vote for me. Does that make you suspicious?

I never quite understood the argument that someone is suspicious for Not Voting for someone, unless the person they weren't voting for turned out to be scum.

[Rishi]

No, I usually can't by page 5. nobody's said/done anything too particulary scummy.

This is actually somewhat consistent with ac1983fan's previous statements. Your main criticism of the lynch was that it was too fast. Also, I think the fact that you are the only living player NOT involved in xerebz's lynch is also telling.

The Mafia's main weapon in this game is the mislynch. It's likely that both Mafia were involved in the mislynch on Day 1. That's why I don't see ac1983fan as Mafia, but I have a strong suspicion that he is the serial killer.

Speaking of twilight, JordanA24 was very adamant about xerebz being scum, a fact that no one has brought up. Why was he so sure that xerebz was scum?

I also don't like SirWario's behavior. I'm looking at Post 109, especially. He is not adding anything new to the argument, but merely following other people's arguments. I don't think he's built a case against anyone from scratch. He just seems to repeat what other people are saying.

Then there is AlSleet, trying to say that his vote was random but he didn't feel the need to unvote since he didn't think someone would hammer. This has already been brought up. The Fonz put xerebz at Lynch -1 and I dropped the hammer.

I bring up these behaviors for a couple reasons. First of all, the points against JordanA24 and SirWario have not really been raised, and I wanted to bring them up.

But, I also want to point out that ac1983fan is pretty friggin' blind if he thinks that no one has done anything scummy yet. I don't like the "bad player" defense either. What ac1983fan is trying to do is deliberately fly under the radar and not call attention to himself. He hopes that if he doesn't point too many fingers and stays quiet, people will forget about him. I haven't played too many games with a SK, but I imagine this is a pretty good tactic for the SK to use.

[Rishi]

I also don't like SirWario's behavior. I'm looking at Post 109, especially. He is not adding anything new to the argument, but merely following other people's arguments. I don't think he's built a case against anyone from scratch. He just seems to repeat what other people are saying.

Are you referring to the whole game or just post 109?

I was referring to the whole game. Still, I don't know if it's super-suspicious behavior, just something I am keeping an eye on.

[Rishi]

Uh... AlSleet has been replaced by JDodge. No prod necessary.

[Rishi]

Welcome back Simenon.

Thanks creampuffeater.

[Rishi]

So, if the hammer is going to drop on ac1983fan, it is up to either me or The Fonz. I haven't decided if ac1983fan is just a really bad player or if he is a scummy player, or both.

But I don't like how he doesn't respond to anything or give any explanation for his votes or actions. I'd rather give him another chance to explain himself before I drop the hammer. I think his lynch can still be prevented, since The Fonz is quasi-lurking in this game anyway.

[Rishi]

pretty much, I'm a bad player until about day three... and this game went way too fast for me to actually be able to play well in it.

I find this statement surprising, because I'm surprised that you survive to Day 3 in a lot of your games.

What haven't I responded too?

I almost dropped a hammer on you in this post and then changed my mind at the last minute. You're about to get lynched. Is it too much trouble to ask you to read the thread again so you can try to save yourself?

[Rishi]

EBWOP: Oh, and it doesn't help that were only on page what.. 6? so the only evidence I really have is that sirwario has been acting pretty wierd in his post... attacking me, rishi, and asleet for being overdefensive during twilight, yet I was being defensive, since I didn't even have a vote towards the lynch and thus hadf no reason to be defensive, I was jsut pissed that you all decided to go ahead and lynch when the game was just starting...

I find that post by SirWario somewhat suspicious as well. But I think it's interesting that he made that post on Page 5 and you specifically said on Page 6 that no one has done anything scummy yet.

I'd actually like for The Fonz to check in. I don't like his lurking, and as he's the only other person who doesn't have a vote on ac1983fan, I'm curious what he thinks.

[Rishi]

I'm not 100% comfortable dropping the hammer either. Per the rules, if no one receives a majority by deadline, then we go into night with No Lynch. I think, when the serial killer is out there, that's bad. So I'll likely drop the hammer before deadline.

I think we can still give it a couple more days to see if anything develops.

[Rishi]

Well, the reason I thought you might the SK rather than the Mafia is that you were not involved in the mislynch and you seemed to be trying to fly under the radar.

But voting for the one person who was somewhat defending you? What an idiotic move.

Vote: ac1983fan

[Rishi]

So, if this isn't obvious to everyone, we have two townies, a serial killer and a Mafia. We must lynch the serial killer or the SK wins.

[Rishi]

I don't think we can ignore JDodge. JDodge has seemed to be better than AlSleet, but you have to admit that AlSleet did not look great.

[Rishi]

I really have no idea who the serial killer is. To win, the town has to lynch the serial killer today and the Mafia tomorrow. In that order. I don't like those odds.

It's possible the two scum are SirWario and The Fonz, but which one is which? That's the tough part.

[Rishi]

Well, one scum and one serial killer. I guess a serial killer is technically not scum?

[Rishi]

Ah. Good. Is the deadline still in effect?

[Rishi]

I want to hear from VitaminR on what he thinks. Then, I think we should put together a lynch.

I think that going into the night without a lynch is risky. There's two possibilities after No Lynch... either the SK kills the last Mafia or the SK kills a townie. If the SK kills the last Mafia, then it's actually good for the town, I think. Two townies and the SK, lynch-or-lose, but a typical endgame situation. If the SK hits a townie, it sets up this really bizarre endgame where the town can't possibly win, but still has a vote.

[Rishi]

Throwing out two names isn't helpful.... we have to lynch the SK and the Mafia in that order. Who do you think is who?

[Rishi]

By the way, as for the wishy-washiness on Day 2, I was somewhat sure ac1983fan was scum, but I wanted to be cautious. After the debacle that was Day 1, I think a little caution was warranted. Besides, I was trying to get information out of acfan. After it was obvious that none of it was coming, I dropped the hammer (also in the interest of the deadline).

Right now, I am leaning towards SirWario as the SK and VitaminR as the Mafia. Is there enough consensus for a SirWario lynch?

[Rishi]

My suspicion on JDodge has not dissipated, but I don't think he's the SK, so I'll cross that bridge tomorrow if I need to.

I will build my case against you, SirWario. I don't have time at work for longer posts, but expect it to come, hopefully tonight or tomorrow.

[Rishi]

I was expecting to find proof when I did a re-read showing that SirWario was the Serial Killer, but all I have is speculation. The reason I suspect SirWario as the SK is fairly weak.

It's just that anyone who has played with Guardian in the past knows that, while he looks like a good player at first glance, but you realize he's kind of a liability to the town once he gets going, especially towards the end of the game. I know this and I know AlSleet knew this (we were both in a game with Guardian). I am pretty The Fonz has played with Guardian before as well. So I'm not sure why anyone else would have motivation to kill Guardian. Of course, a WIFOM argument kind of kills this idea.

On the re-read, what I noticed is that SirWario did seem to be doing some distancing between himself and ac1983fan, which I think is a lot more scummy than SK-like. Once it was clear that ac1983fan was going to be the lynch, SirWario voted. Yes, my vote came really late, but SirWario's was relatively late. So, now I want to place SirWario in the Mafia slot.

The Fonz was lurking. He did not want to call attention to himself. Though I had never played with him before, that surprised me, and I think, if we check his other games, he is usually more vocal. Perhaps he was changing up his playstyle to avoid being NKed, or perhaps he is the serial killer. A SK would probably want to fly under the radar to win.

As for AlSleet/JDodge, my suspicion has not dissipated, but I am not feeling comfortable enough to put up a vote.

Right now, I am willing to vote for The Fonz/VitaminR and I could be talked into voting for SirWario (if someone can show why he's more likely to be the SK than scum). I don't think, without further proof, I would vote for AlSleet/JDodge.

The reason I want to take a straw poll is that we just simply don't have time to hash everything out. I want to see who is likely to get lynched, so we can speed up the process and get something done by Sunday.

Also, I want to ask the Mafia player not to out himself but to cooperate a little, because he loses too if we mislynch here.

[Rishi]

Yeah... it's hard. You present a good argument, VitaminR. I think the SK is either you or SirWario. I think that JDodge might be scum, but I would be really surprised if he was the SK. So, JDodge, what do you think?

[Rishi]

I wouldn't normally do this, but in the interest of the deadline...

Vote: SirWario

[Rishi]

I think you killed Guardian because you thought he was a good player. Anyone who has played with Guardian before knows this isn't true. So killing Guardian is a newbie mistake. You're the most newbish here. (Sorry, Guardian, if you're reading this...)

I am easily swayed because I am really and honestly conflicted here, but I voted due to the deadline. You could sway me too, but you can't sway me enough to convince me that I'm the SK.

[Rishi]

Now a little into day 2, you comment that you don't feel ready to drop the hammer on acfan. Jordan calls you out on it and puts an FOS due to believing that you and acfan are scumbuddies(even though I don't think you are). But to avoid being the lynch of day 2, you hammer acfan to distance yourself from him and later finish off Jordan to clear any remaining supicions that could be directed towards you on Day 3.

Vote:Rishi

First you say I'm trying to distance myself from acfan and then you say that I am the SK? Why would I kill Jordan because he thinks me and acfan are scumbuddies? I was the one who was doing all the math earlier in the thread. I would have known that we needed to lynch the SK. So I wouldn't have offed someone who thought I was Mafia, since Mafia are safe today.

Your logic makes no sense.

And I'm not EAGER for a lynch. The day is deadlined. I already stated that I think a No Lynch is probably bad for the town and our best option is to keep the game moving. I wish we had another week to hash this out, but we don't. No one else is participating, so I probably seem eager in comparison.

[Rishi]

My willingness to lynch comes from the fact that we are deadlined and the deadline is TODAY. No one seems to get this...

[Rishi]

Wow. This means the town actually has a chance. Two town and one Serial Killer. I do not want to rush this decision, since there is no deadline. I am leaning towards SirWario as the SK, but I'm not sure.

[Rishi]

By the way, VitaminR has been posting all over the site today. SirWario has not posted since yesterday. With such a short night phase, this should be noted.

[Rishi]

I strongly dislike such arguments. Firstly, you have been present too. Secondly, I would expect SirWario to check this game at the deadline. He only needs to be online very briefly.

Also, had I been the SK, I would have killed you. JDodge seemed town to me.

I'm not going to base my vote based on your presence or absence. It's really easy to manipulate something like that. But, if, after a few days of discussion, it's really a toss-up, it might come down to something like that.

You think the SK should have been aiming for Mafia? I'd think that a SK wouldn't care. Yes, he has a tricky endgame if there's one townie, one Mafia and a townie, but the SK can still win that. In fact, that endgame might be easier to win than two townies and one SK.

But I am heartened to see that the town can win this game. It's really a toss-up for me, though. I have no idea which one of you is the SK. I slightly favor SirWario as the SK, but it's awfully close.

SirWario has done a lot of suspicious things, but there's not a lot of content from The Fonz/VitaminR. I dunno.

[Rishi]

I will admit that I am a little surprised that JDodge was scum. But I guess that shows he's a much better play than AlSleet, who wore his scuminess on his sleeve.

So it seems that one of you is town.

It's interesting that VitaminR is hedging a little bit on SK strategy. Obviously, the SK would have spent a lot of time thinking about it. So, if VR is the SK, then he's purposefully putting on an act there. But, it seems somewhat genuine.

I apologize if I'm not really getting anywhere with my accusations. I'm basically thinking out loud. It seems that every time the discussion dies on this thread, Simenon sets a deadline. So, I'm trying to keep the game active to give us time to hash things out.

I'm probably going to try a re-read tomorrow evening, for what it's worth. I don't know if it will reveal anything, since The Fonz was lurking so much. I prefer not to take lurking as a scumtell, since there are countless reasons why he may not have been posting much, most of which have nothing to do with the game. I also wonder if SirWario looks more suspicious to me just because he's given us more to go on?

[Rishi]

A week is reasonable.

I am still leaning slightly towards SirWario, but not enough to vote at this point. Who are you guys leaning towards? Any suspicions so far?

[Rishi]

I'll sum up the argument against you, SirWario...

Let's say that some idiot is in the game. A horrible player, who either gets incorrectly lynched or votes for the wrong person, time after time. If you were Mafia (or the SK in this case), I would think you would want that person in the game. With that person still alive, there's a greater chance of the town making a mistake.

Now, my argument is that Guardian isn't a great player. He's not an idiot by any means, but he is notoriously bad in endgames. But, here's the tricky thing. If you've never played with him before, he seems articulate and his arguments sound good at first. But, anyone who has played with him knows that he's a liability to the town.

So, going on the theory that you want to kill the good players if you're the SK, then I know Guardian is a bad player and The Fonz probably knew this too. You, a relative newbie, would be least likely to have this information.

I don't know if this is a good argument or a bad argument, but it's not direct evidence in any case. But, hopefully you understand what I was saying before?

(And again, apologies to Guardian if you're reading this.)

[Rishi]

I thought there was something else I had against you, SirWario. I really need to do a re-read. That might happen tonight or possibly tomorrow.

[Rishi]

Well, I did a quick re-reading of the thread. The one thing that surprised me about the re-reading was that The Fonz was not as quiet as I thought he was. I think I was remembering how he acted right before he got replaced, which is probably why he asked to be replaced.

The Fonz did seem suspicious on the re-read. SirWario actually looked a little bit better than I originally thought. I will quote some of The Fonz's suspicious posts later. I think I found enough of a connection between The Fonz and Guardian to justify the kill on Night 1 too.

Unfortunately, VitaminR looks better than The Fonz. And it will be hard for him to respond to what The Fonz did.

But we used that argument before (JDodge looks less scummy than AlSleet) and it didn't work. It was also amusing on the re-read how dedicated JDodge was at distancing himself from acfan, probably the reason we didn't suspect him as scum.

[Rishi]

I agree with Rishi about the posting during twilight. I really don't like how Alsleet and acfan both tried to act like it was a bad move to lynch xerebz just in case he turned up townie. It is interesting because both of them never really took a firm stance on anyone on day 1.

Also, I don't like how Rishi hammered xerebz so quickly. I don't believe his replacement could have justified xerebz's actions, but I still think you made a hasty decision.

FOS:Alsleet, acfan, and Rishi

I will wait to hear their defense before voting anyone.

This is the post that most people have been using as the main case against SirWario. I don't like this post either, but you have to admit that, in his FoS, he hit two scum! If this the worst we can get from SirWario, it's not so bad.

I honestly think the reason I was suspecting SirWario for so long was that everyone else was suspecting him. As SirWario pointed out, I think I am too easily influenced. After reading the post-by-post analysis, I am not 100% sure that SirWario is clear, but he looks a lot less scummy.

[Rishi]

So, I would recommend that people do a post-by-post analysis on The Fonz. I don't really have anything to quote here, but you will notice that The Fonz had a habit of following people. He didn't really start accusations, but he kind of sat back and stirred the pot. It's really obvious if you look at it.

If you look at VitaminR's behavior, he's kind of doing the same thing. I don't like how he's agreeing with me, even though my arguments have not really been all that strong. He has just posted that SirWario seems scummy, but hasn't given solid reasons for it.

The fact is that The Fonz and VitaminR has definitely showed signs of following other players. The scummiest thing about SirWario is based on a hunch.

I am going to place a vote tonight. The deadline is Sunday, if you guys have forgotten, and I'll be out of town this weekend. I want to hear what both of you have to say before I do this though.

[Rishi]

Well, as promised, since the deadline is Sunday, here's my vote. At least if we lynch someone, the town has a chance of winning. If we don't lynch anyone, the SK auto-wins.

Vote: VitaminR

[Rishi]

I feel good about this. I really am town.

[Rishi]

Crap. Well played SirWario. I was on to him earlier but then something went horribly wrong.

I didn't think we'd get a claim out of xerebz. It seemed that he already quit. I did not see how we would not lynch his successor. I don't know if the short deadlines really helped the town, though. It feels like there wasn't much to go on. Day 3, in particular, I think we would have lynched SirWario if it wasn't for the deadline.

However, I think this is a good setup, Simenon. You should submit it for the open queue.