Open 32 - Pick Your Poison Mafia (Game Over!), before 470

[Patrick]

Vote: Ms Piggy

[Patrick]

Lol.. well ok. I'm not sure how much of this is serious yet if any. I don't see the WIFOM here.

[Patrick]

Bad coin: Mert

<3

[Patrick]

Hmm. Ok. I've been seeing this game as not especially out of the random voting stage for a while. So I've reread it to see if there's anything worth commenting on. I don't really like xyzzy's play; generally spammy and doesn't seem too helpful. Lurking in plain sight as Mert said. However this...

Oh and claim too while you're at it.

... seems premature to me. I don't think his play is all that scummy that we need a claim. A couple of days ago you said that we're hardly out of the random voting stage, so what is so dramatically different 48 hours later than means he has to claim now? Ok you made a case against him that is based mainly off noncontribution and spamming. But several people haven't contributed much. Heck, I've not really done anything myself up until this post. So yeah, premature in my opinion. Seems a bit better than a random vote

Unvote, vote: Mert

[Patrick]

JDodge wins.

[Patrick]

Oh man. I can tell this is going to be a frustrating game. We seem to have so many oppotunistic people. I agree that SSF's mindset is scummy though I've seen it from some inexperienced town as well. But the vote's still happy on Mert, since he's ignored my question and I feel like he'd know better than to ask for a claim based on so little.

[Patrick]

On the contrary, I'm coming around to the idea that one claim on Day One can actually be very beneficial for the town in terms of information. Not particularly on Day One itself, but as we approach endgame it can be very interesting to see reactions to the request for a claim (ie. who supports it, who thinks it's stupid), reactions to the claim itself and the true alignment of the claiming and requesting players if they die before that point.

You got me interested now. If xyzzy is protown and claims, it's either slightly bad (if townie) or very bad (if we're forced to out a powerole). If he's scum then of course it's good to get him to claim early, but I don't see that much evidence to suggest he is, which must presumably be your point of view too since you recently said we're hardly out of random voting yet.

I'll grant you that you are getting reactions though.

[Patrick]

Both the previous votes on Mert were weird in that they seemed to both be disclaiming the vote (schismatized said he was more suspicious of xyzzy, SSF gave some crap about not being deadlined.)

I wouldn't mind a votecount and some prods right now.

[Patrick]

unvote, vote somestrangeflea

Had to do it.

You hammered him without a claim. Just wow. I really hope you are not protown after that.

If SSF is protown and I'm dead overnight, obviously look heavily at Ms Piggy. I know it pretty much goes without saying.

FoS: Ms Piggy

[Patrick]

Sorry, honest mistake. Most games permit it.

[Patrick]

Meh. I hardly remember anything from this. I do remember a pretty scummy looking hammer by Ms Piggy. Ms Piggy, explain why you felt the need to hammer him, when certain people were still talking to him and he hadn't claimed.

Mod

, who is being replaced?

[Patrick]

Hi.

[Patrick]

I'll have to reread the game before I have much of a clue, but I'll answer a couple of points for Jack now:

Mert seems pro town, calling for a claim that early seems bold for scum. Oh wait he died so this is right. Patricks vote on him for it being too early seems a bit like an obvious town post ie slightly scummy.

I voted him because it seemed pretty much the only scummy thing that had happened. Xyzy's play was bad and annoying but not really scummy. As well as attacking Mert, I did want to make it clear xyzzy shouldn't claim. I don't see how you can say it was the obvious town post to make, as far as I remember nobody else mentioned it until I did, even though some posted before me.

Whoops, looks like my predecessor hammered without a claim. This is something I've been guilty of too as townie though not usually in a mini. Patrick is making too big a deal about it.

I guess I didn't necessarily have to FoS her for it yesterday, as it was obvious. I don't see how I'm making too big a deal out of it; I haven't even FoSed her or voted her today, I just asked for her to explain what was going through her brain, which unfortunately won't happen now. It's easy for you to just say, "Oh it was obviously a noob mistake". Obviously the whole reason I pointed it out was because I thought it would be slightly more likely coming from noobscum than noobtown. Not going to lynch you over that but I see no reason to just ignore it. =

[Patrick]

This is a fairly dry game. Shanba is acting similarly to when I played with him last, where he was scum, but with everyone being equally lazy it probably doesn't say much.

Dylan's post number 5 looks scummy and insincere especially when I look at his/her next post about 40 minutes later.

I also don't like HH here, I don't like the manner in which he pushed the xyzzy wagon forward, and I don't like that he FoSed Mert for votehopping when Ms Piggy was votehopping more at the time.

FoS: Honary Hitchhiker.

I don't see anything particularly wrong with Rishi. I think dylan, mneme and xyzzy all need to post more content.

Vote: Dylan

[Patrick]

I haven't played with dylan before. I did mod the open setup Roleblocker C9, where dylan was the roleblocker and got lynched on day 1, although I didn't actually read the game while modding it, because it was so boring. I might do that now though.

[Patrick]

I don't think it's so clearcut as the wagon on him implies, and I don't like the way my next two suspects jumped right on. I want to hear from dylan.

I read dylans posts in newbie 387 where he was town and got lynched day 1. The majority of those posts were a close variation of, "I'm a townie, don't lynch me!!". The amount of content he posted in that game is similar to this one, so that doesn't mean much for his alignment, but he seems more self conscious in this game, in posts 5-6.

I certainly don't think it's clearcut at all, and if dylan comes close to being lynched, I'll unvote, heck I might change my vote anyway soon. About half the players were able to cruise through day 1 without doing anything at all, and xyzzy was one of them. Today all he's done is voted dylan without any kind of analysis or content at all. So yes, we're certainly not going through today with only a focus on one person.

I think your suspicions of my day 1 play are poor, or at best poorly explained.

[Patrick]

As for Patrick, no one mentioned his post in twilight. I never like posts in twilight and it's awfully convenient to criticize someone for dropping the hammer. Yes, the hammer was way too fast, but there was no need to point it out. I dunno...

So... you're saying that the hammer was indeed way too fast, whilst critisising me for pointing it out. Ok. What difference does it make that it was in twilight?

[Patrick]

I didn't know anything for sure. I said that if SSF was town, the hammer was suspicious. Even if SSF had been scum, the hammer would have been suspicious to some extent.

[Patrick]

Ah Thin Man again.

[Patrick]

mneme, mind explaining why you suspect those three people?

[Patrick]

Patrick: major lurking. contradictory play re dylan. (probably the least scummy of those listed; based on the PBPA, schismated, xyz, and dylan are probably more scummy).

I haven't been majorly lurking, I've posted more than several people, including you. Admittedly not a great achievement in this game, but I can't at all see why you've given me that tag. About a third of the players haven't really posted anything at all.

Can you point me to how I've contradicted myself on dylan?

I'm kind of confused how I got onto your top 3 list if 3 other guys who aren't on the list are scummier than me in your opinion.

[Patrick]

mneme: I noted that dylan contributed similarly badly in other games, but still said that I didn't like his posts 5-6. More self conscious than the other games I'd seen where he was town. I suppose you can call that fairly non commital on my part, but it's not a contradiction.

I'm still not really seeing the Rishi hate, but I'd definitely like mneme to explain the discrepancy pointed out by Jack there.

[Patrick]

Shanba, any post in particular that led to you having a hunch that HH was likely protown?

[Patrick]

Just a quick post for now about the twilight thing.

I think Patrick was more likely to voice his frustration about the hammer with a knowledge that SSF was town. He said posts in Twilight have been allowed in his other games, but I don't think they've been allowed in any games I've been in. Which is more common?

I don't see what's a big deal here. I was frustrated because we'd lynched early and based on not much that I could see. Also, I'm allergic to lynching without a claim because it's terrible play. As for posting in twilight, I don't think I can remember a game I've played in before this where it wasn't allowed. And I've played in over 30. Maybe the games I've played in have been a series of anomalies (shrug).

[Patrick]

I can't remember off the top of my head someone making an argument against someone based off posting in twilight.

[Patrick]

Patrick, any reason you made that post but then backed off on Ms. Piggy/Jack today?

Decent question, mainly I haven't really a got a scumvibe from Jack and his play seems reasonably like how I've seen him play as town in previous games. The point is still there of course, but I don't really have any other complaints.

[Patrick]

Unvote

. Forcing myself to post in this annoying game.

I can see Satael's case against Shanba to a degree, though I think I'd be more suspicious of him if he'd done it in an active game where everyone was actually providing good reasoning and posting frequently. As it is the conditions of this game dampen it in my opinion. Something seems odd in the exchange between Shanba and Thin Man today but I can't place what exactly.

I actually think it would be pretty useful to have JDodge answer Thin Man's question. The case against mneme is ok, and I'm not keen on his suspicions either. Well I can see the first half of his Thin Man suspicion based on Honary Hitchhiker, but Thin Man's behaviour of pushing without giving a reason and being uncommunicative at times is mostly null from what I know of him. Don't see the Rishi suspicion. Obv didn't like his suspicions of me (which were backtracked on). I'll wait for a votecount because I'm lazy, then probably vote mneme.

[Patrick]

(Shrug) he came out and said he'd told a lie of his own accord. He posted the first part of his self analysis a couple of days before, and nobody came out and said, "OMG you were still online at the time so you were lying!" (and frankly it would be easy to for him to get round that even if someone did). His explanation suggests he's pretty concerned about his image in the game which worries me a bit, but I think I could imagine myself doing something similar regardless of alignment. So I pretty much agree with Rishi there.

I prefer a

vote: mneme

.

[Patrick]

Hmm. That is lynch -1 btw.

[Patrick]

Actually I'll

Unvote

given what happened yesterday, but I think mneme should claim.

[Patrick]

Strong. Maybe this will pick the game up a bit. It's a shame that the game was re opened just when I'm planning to go to bed. I'll try and look a bit closer at yesterday tomorrow. Initial reaction is that the two last votes on mneme are possible buses, and that Jack/White is likely town.

[Patrick]

I think Jack/White is likely town, because Jack's play is what I've seen from him as town usually, and the way he broke down mneme looks like the way he methodically caught a scum in a recent game I was with him (porly ritten flayver maffier). He was also one of the early pressurers of mneme, when other bandwagons were available. Thin Man also gets some town points for being early and persistent on mneme, though the way he plays makes it harder for me to tell if that suspicion was genuine.

Satael looks like a good possibility to me. I don't think she ever gave an opinion on mneme until her last post where she appeared on the mneme wagon, and it just looked like she wanted to quickly make sure she was on the mneme lynch that was obviously going to happen at that stage. (And I don't think her vote was required as extra incentive for mneme to claim). Looking back at mneme's posts, he seems to have alot of wishy washy stances on dylan, in that he left plenty of openings to vote him later but always went after other players first (Thin Man, Rishi, Shanba and me is what I remember). Plus I was never wild about dylan's play to begin with. Shanba also brings up a reasonable point in his last post about mneme seeming to show a double standard between Shanba being self conscious and dylan being self conscious.

JDodge's hammer of mneme shares a characteristic with Satael's vote on mneme, the fact that he never expressed any previous opinion of mneme but was willing to vote him. JDodge hasn't done much in this game either, but I think I'm more suspicious of Satael at the moment.

I've not played with xyzzy before, but he seems utterely useless in this game. Can we have some good contribution?

Vote: Satael

FoS: JDodge, xyyzy

[Patrick]

Satael, your reasoning for voting mneme isn't actually bad. I still think it could have made a convenient bus for you.

That is your opinion. I disagree. In spite of the fact that he was likely going to be lynched, mneme was making no effort to defend himself or be active in the game at all. I was hoping my vote would bring him out and get him to claim or at least make some kind of content post.

I had voted him, putting him at lynch-1, and unvoted for safety purposes, and asked for a claim. I think he would have claimed regardless of your vote.

I disagree that this is a reasonable point. mneme reacted virtually the same to the supposed "self-awareness" of both Shanba and dylan. The fact that dylan's was brought up by someone else first, and mneme then called me out on it doesn't make it a double standard.

I don't think he reacted the same. When I brought it up against dylan, mneme just said, "It's interesting" and never really bothered with it again. He used it as a point against Shanba and it was part of his reasoning for his dubious late vote on Shanba.

@White, if you read the surrounding posts, it's really not that confusing.

[Patrick]

Sorry I missed this bit last night because it wasn't bolded.

Can you point out this wishy washyness? I don't recall it from my initial read. The only concrete reason anyone had to suspect dylan was that he was hesitant to put SSF at -1. Do you have other reasons for suspecting him?

Mneme's stance on dylan is usually kind of expressing suspicion on dylan, whilst going after or voting other people. If dylan was going to be lynched, mneme had left himself openings to be on that lynchwagon. Although, on reading his posts, he left quite alot of options open in all directions anyway.

[Patrick]

Finding Mafia

[Patrick]

Although I think jeep tells are mostly outdated, and there's better stuff to work with today.

[Patrick]

Got my prod. Will post here tomorrow, and yeah I'll look at the Setael/Guardian debate.

[Patrick]

I'm thinking maybe he's going to be replacing xyzzy. Pure guesswork though.

[Patrick]

Meh. Looking back at the conversation I had with Setael I had nearer the start of today, I'm still not fond of her reasons for unvoting Shanba and switching to mneme. The stated reason for moving off Shanba is plausible but still looks a bit convenient, and I have some trouble believing Setael really thought mneme needed an extra vote to give him enough incentive to claim. I still have this feeling she may have just made up those reasons on the spot.

I'm a bit confused by the case Setael made against Guardian btw.

I was assuming everyone agreed with my suspicions of Schiz which would give you more motivation to do something which would get rid of them.

Any posts in particular that lead you to assume that everyone agreed with your suspicions of schiz?

[Patrick]

Gives a wishy washy stance on Jack.

Where was this?

You think Rishi backtraced, but don't see the Rishi suspicion?

Come on. I'd have thought it's fairly difficult to misunderstand this post in the way you did unless you're skimming. I'm listing the people mneme was suspicious of, and I was one of those people. When I questioned mneme on that, he backtracked in a manner that suggested he hadn't really thought about it and had probably hoped I wouldn't question him on it.

Your assessment of JDodge seems odd. The fact that he was unhelpful in some game where he was town surely doesn't mean that posting next to no content here means he must be town here too. How do you think he behaves as scum?

[Patrick]

Once again, more reason to be suspicious of him than to say you don't understand the suspicions on Rishi.

I don't understand. I

was

suspicious of him. I didn't like his suspicions.

[Patrick]

Yeah you're misunderstanding. I was never suspicious of Rishi. I didn't like mneme's suspects or the way he backtracked on his suspicions of me when questioned.

[Patrick]

Guardian strikes me as townish in his latest few posts.

Setael, do you understand now what I've been saying? It seems like you misread a post somewhere down the line. Also you haven't answered the first question I asked you.

Also, if you think I'm being wishy washy, you presumably think I'm trying to keep my options open. Do you think JDodge also kept his options open on day 2 by, you know, not really expressing an opinion on anyone until the mneme hammer?

[Patrick]

Shrug. Just a hunch. You seem to be genuinely trying to discern Setael's alignment.

[Patrick]

Welcome to the game Bookitty.

I didn't know anything for sure. I said that if SSF was town, the hammer was suspicious. Even if SSF had been scum, the hammer would have been suspicious to some extent.

If someone is lynched, and comes up scum, how is it suspicious to have put the hammer on scum? In the early stages of the game, bussing seems to me to be such a bad tactic for scum, because it doesn't even make them look innocent when so many other people are involved in the lynch... so I'd like an explanation of why it's suspicious "even if SSF had been scum."

A very confident or premature hammer always looks off to me, ragardless of the alignment of the person lynched. I started thinking this after reading the mini game Graduation (modded by Save the Dragons), where a scum hammered his scumbuddy with a big comical picture (not of a hammer, of a roadsign if I recall). I was struck by some comment Glork made post game about that.

Back in this game, Ms Piggy's hammer was premature, because we hadn't got a roleclaim out of SSF. If SSF had been scum, I might have considered it a sloppy distancing tactic by a newbscum. I disagree with your comment about busing early being a bad tactic for scum, and even if it was, there's no evidence whatsoever that Ms Piggy is a competent player.

This could be distancing with Patrick; it could also be trying to "get along" with everyone. I'm leaning toward the first explanation right now.

Why is it more likely distancing than trying to get along? As I remember it, he put me on his top list of three for some slapdash reasons, probably hoping I wouldn't actually pick apart his reasoning at all. When I did he said that actually I wasn't that suspicious and that actually a whole bunch of other people were worse than me. Why did you get distancing out of that as the most likely explanation?

And now time for me to read the stuff between Setael and Rishi. Should be back in a bit.

[Patrick]

@Setael, my comment on Jack wasn't wishy washy. I hadn't forgotten the point against Ms Piggy but I wasn't going to go after Jack for that without something better. And I do have a genuine meta on him for how I think he plays as town. It comes in part from Porly Ritten Flayver Maffier, which both me and Jack were in as town, and the way he interrogated and busted the first scum in that game looks very similar to the way he was interrogating mneme. Don't take my word for it, filter his posts in that game and see for yourself. The fact that mneme turned up scum solidifies my thoughts there. There's really nothing wishy washy about it, I just didn't really find him scummy.

On the Rishi case, I don't think the distinction between pressure vote or vote on someone you think is scum is warranted. However, I don't get Rishi's reasoning for preferring JDodge to xyzzy. Yes there's an obv difference between posting 11 times without content and posting nothing at all, but if anything the former is worse.

You're reading too much into the fact that I don't throw suspicions about all willy-nilly. Basically, I'm saying that Player A exhibits Characteristic X, which I think is scummy. You say that Player B also exhibits Characteristic X, but to a lesser degree, and yet I'm not suspicious of Player B. Therefore, I must be scum. Great logic there.

It's a legit line of questioning surely. Not that you, "must be scum", but double standards are usually worth noting.

Guardian, am I right in thinking you think Rishi is town? If so, why?

[Patrick]

Double standards may be "worth noting," but do you think I deserved a vote from Setael because of it?

I agree that on it's own wouldn't deserve a vote. But then again, it wasn't on it's own.

[Patrick]

The worst I can find, from my own perspective, is that you didn't pursue Jack very hard after your extreme reaction to Ms Piggy's quickhammer, and I don't find that suspicious enough.

Heh. It wasn't an extreme reaction, at least not by my standards. My reasoning on Jack can be found in the first paragraph of my Post 459. I'm interested though, what's your opinion on the alignment of Jack/White?

Guardian, you haven't answered my question about Rishi.

I can see wrong things on both sides of the Guardian/Bookitty debate.

Okay. If you don't know xyzzy's alignment, (I do, actually!) then I would guess that if you're voting to lynch him, and you intend to lynch him, then... you're assuming he is scum already, right? Or is it beneficial in some way I haven't yet heard to lynch town?

This is too limited. When you're voting someone, that does not mean that you are assuming that player is scum. You might even think there's a less than 50% chance that they're scum, but they're still your top suspect. I also think you're suggestions that Guardian is not interested in lynching anyone but you are blatantly not in line with the facts.

I agree that Guardian's FoS of Setael is a real stretch, and I see Shanba has sarnath'd be *shakes fist*

schismatized starts with the wagon on xyzzy (I occasionally think that people pick such difficult names to spell in order to prevent people from voting for them) and then makes a statement that makes some sense. "I think that wagon got a lot of info from xyzzy. If someone had to die right now, it would be him. Its much to early for that so i am going to unvote vote: Mert." Which is notable only because Mert was the nightkill.

I'm curious, why is this notable because Mert was the nightkill? Does it incriminate schizmatized or help him?

"I was more suspicious of xyzzy when i voted for mert, but i didnt and still dont think we have had enough discussion to end the day. Given that, i just voted for the next scummy person in my mind." (This phrasing is just off. It also links you to Mert who was NKed, and I tend to look for such linkages.)

Same question as the above quote.

Mneme's weird interaction with Patrick mentions schismatized, well after schismatized stops playing. This is a point in your favour, I think: "Patrick: major lurking. contradictory play re dylan. (probably the least scummy of those listed; based on the PBPA, schismated, xyz, and dylan are probably more scummy)."

How does this translate to a point in schiz's favour? Previously you've claimed that mneme's comments about me may be distancing, because he was showing suspicion of me without bringing up any real points. It seems like here he's doing that with schismatized.

[Patrick]

I suppose I was assuming that Mneme wouldn't put any scum in his top few suspects...

I'm confused. I thought you said my inclusion in his list of suspects was likely distancing. Now you're saying you didn't think he'd include any of his buddies in his top few suspects. Explain this?

For the record, I do think that when a scum makes a list of suspects that big, he's probably thrown a buddy in there somewhere. In this situation, that amounts only to saying that there's at least one scum in Thin Man, Rishi, Patrick, Setael, xyzzy and schiz (included myself for completeness of his list) which is statistically likely anyway.

[Patrick]

I'm not sure what to do with JDodge right now.

I could conceivably see Setael and Bookitty as scum together.

[Patrick]

It is interesting that Setael never really implicated xyzzy and attacked those who were suspicious of him.

Yeah that's part of it; in her analysis Setael is trying to channel suspicion away from xyzzy for his lurking onto the other lurker: JDodge. (Although she thinks JDodge is town). Xyzzy is also the only player that Setael doesn't give any definitive assessment of in her analysis. I'm also not wild about her connecting you and xyzzy/Bookitty because it seems stretched, and I know scum often like to connect a buddy to an innocent (and then go after the innocent). It's only a loose connection, but I'll keep it in mind if one of them turns up scum.

[Patrick]

Interesting assessment of Piggy/Jack/White by Bookitty. I reached the opposite conclusion. I think Jack's play does outweigh Ms Piggy's behaviour.

I really don't like Ms Piggy's eagerness to put the hammer on someone, anyone. But that pales in comparison with her disappearance after having put the hammer on somestrangeflea. That looks really suspicious to me.

I hadn't really thought about his disappearance in that way before.

Guardian, I think Bookitty's posting style is just how she normally posts, on a brief look at other games.

Mod

: Can we get a prod on Thin Man please?

[Patrick]

Here's what doesn't make sense: you call my arguments weak, but then accuse me for backing off when I realize that myself. You've torn apart your own argument there.

Can you explain how he tore his own argument apart there? It seems he's accusing you of just throwing suspicion around everywhere and backing off when it doesn't stick.

[Patrick]

GAH. Does anyone else completely NOT see Setael-scum saying this about Guardian-town and Rishi-town? I could see her saying it about Guardian-town and Rishi-scum, but from my POV, if Rishi is not her buddy, then she is a good bit more likely town from that phrase.

I don't really see this.

I didn't say I was going to lynch you. What I was saying is that I don't think you're scum at all right now - you're almost completely off my radar. Tomorrow, that won't be true, if Setael turns up town.

I think it's reasonable for him to question this, even if you didn't use the word lynch in particular. What makes Shanba worthy of attention tomorrow if Setael is town, as opposed to other people?

Stop alienating the other players. It's annoying and, if you're really town, it's not helpful.

I don't understand this either.

[Patrick]

Bookitty, what do you think of Setael?

[Patrick]

Just checking in to say that I should be able to get in some reread today or tomorrow. My immediate reaction is Bookitty, but that's based mostly on memory.

[Patrick]

I'm wondering if the last power-role should claim? It will at least clear one townie, which is helpful. And if the last role is a cop, then it could clear several people.

If we'd come into today with both poweroles, I'd probably have suggested a massclaim, in the hope of clearing enough people to force a win. As it is, I don't think we need to have a claim just yet. It might happen today, but doesn't have to be right away. On a slightly related note,

Mod

: Are the mafia forced to nightkill?

[Patrick]

Bookitty, I think it's dangerous to be calling anyone cleared right now. I do think Guardian and Shanba are likely town, but I've been bitten more than once by clearing people prematurely. I also think White is likely protown, if only for Jack's posts. White's posts haven't done much for me, but I know that he's been legitimately absent at least for a while now. I'm mildly suprised that some people have White near the top of their lists.

Good chance the last scum is in (Bookitty, JDodge, Rishi). I may need a closer look before voting one of them. I think xyzzy/Bookitty has the most connections with Setael, but her last few posts make me not want to vote her for now.

In Post 255 which is Setael's entry to the game, she talks alot about how the swing voters away from xyzzy are scummy, and suggests that the mafia may have been protecting him. She then proceeds to attack people who she thinks are scummy swing voters (Shanba, Schiz). It seems like she's going after possible buddies of xyzzy, without going after xyzzy at all. I could be misunderstanding her wording, but it seems like her attacks on Shanba and schiz rely on xyzzy being scum to really work. I think that's a connection with xyzzy.

Setael's comments in Post 440 about xyzzy looks like classic scum talking about a partner. I think I mentioned this yesterday already. Pretty much takes the easy road and doesn't make any final assessment of him, whilst asking others to give him a case to respond to. Also some deflection away from xyzzy and onto JDodge in the event that we go for a lurker lynch.

Bookitty was also nowhere on the Setael wagon and provided some defences for Setael. Could have been just misguided, but it's worth noting. Solid candidate based on interactions, and I haven't really found any comments between xyzzy/Bookitty and known scum that suggest they aren't paired. Her posts are quite detailed and analytical, which I like, but I'm often swooned by people who post alot, so I'm not giving it as much weight.


JDodge is still hard to read. I've seen scum try to cruise by using the playstyle excuse before. On rereading, I think his day 1 was ok. He didn't really do anything on day 2 at all though, apart from refusing to talk about himself, then hammering mneme out of nowhere.

I'm going to tentatively say that I don't think JDodge is scum. His interactions with Mneme were inconclusive (as is most everything about Mneme, I think) but he put the second vote on Setael and seemed certain of her guilt after Patrick placed the first one. I don't see scum doing that to a partner at that stage, though as always I could be wrong.

Which one of his votes on Setael? (I think both were actually third votes btw). The second one might be a point in favour but doesn't impress me that much when he doesn't explain why and his last post was an attempt to start a bandwagon on Shanba instead.

Other than that, the only thing I find helpful to look at is Setael's assessment of JDodge, in which she said he was probably town, which seems pretty generous. I'll try and take a look at Rishi's posts when I get the chance.

--------------
Final random thought, is it worth speculating on who Thin Man might have protected night 2? When he commented on all the players day 3, he thought Jack and Rishi were "blatantly town". My guess would be one of those. Leaning towards Jack/White. It's possible the kill was stopped by a roleblocker though.

[Patrick]

I've been neglecting a bit, mainly because I'm revising for a test tomorrow morning. When that's out of the way I want to do that read of Rishi's posts. I don't really see the attraction to lynching right now though. At the very least we should be waiting for the White replacement/return.

[Patrick]

Currently I'm wavering between Rishi and JDodge, though I doubt I'll vote either until sikario actually does something. Bookitty hasn't played the cleanest game, but her recent efforts seem genuine to me.

Rishi's stances towards known scum don't fill me with confidence this game, and unlike Shanba, I could see Setael attacking her scumbuddy if she'd predicted that she would be going down. Why not? Gave him a reason to vote for her. Setael was at 3 votes with 5 needed to lynch at the time, so I could see her having the foresight to do a last minute distancing attack. Rishi's recent comments about JDodge seem a little odd, and make me wonder if he's trying to gain town points for if we lynch JDodge as town.

I am unsure of Rishi now, if we were going to lynch someone other than Bookitty and Jdodge, I'd rather it were Patrick atm, I think. Rishi has made a lot of sense this game, and looking back, it is not obvious that he was busing Setael.

What do you mean by "it is not obvious that he was busing Setael"? Is there something about his Setael vote that makes you think notbusing?

[Patrick]

Huh? What the hell.

I had Shanba down as a possible roleblocker with those exact blockings, which is why I went a bit easier on Bookitty, although I'm wary of letting that kind of assumption dominate my play, since I've wrongly assumed poweroles before.

It seems stupid for JDodge to fakeclaim as scum, and stupid to fakeclaim as town. JDodge, what's going on?

[Patrick]

Jdodge, if you're gambitting, I'm sorry, but honestly I'm not good enough to not counterclaim here.

What would be the purpose of this as a town gambit? I'm a bit confused.

If we assume Shanba is the roleblocker we can clear him and Bookitty. That leave 5 suspects, and we have 3 lynches. Maybe we can use Shanba to clear another person too though.

[Patrick]

Yeah, if we direct Shanba's roleblocking we can clear one unconfirmed player somewhere down the line. So of 5 suspects, we can account for 4 of them.

[Patrick]

As I noted in a recent post, it doesn't really make sense to me either way. I want to know what your motivation was for doing it.

[Patrick]

Bookitty, there's no real question as to which one is the roleblocker. The question is whether JDodge is a fakeclaiming townie or scumbag. I do think he's the lynch today, but I'm just trying to think about the situation where we lynch him and the game is still going.

Right now I think the scum is either JDodge or Rishi. Neither Jack or Guardian have given me any scumvibes this game, so I'll be fairly impressed if one of them have been snowing us. I realise my alignment isn't a given. I'm happy to say that if JDodge is a townie, Shanba roleblocks me and we'll decide where to go in the morning. I pretty much agree that we don't need to discuss which scum nightaction would be the best in that case.

I'm assuming Bookitty's vote for JDodge was a 3rd vote, and not a hammer btw. So I can still post this.

[Patrick]

Shanba, if you had to name one, which is more likely scum out of Sikario and Guardian?

[Patrick]

Am I missing something obvious?

No you're not.

[Patrick]

I think we're just about done for today. If JDodge is a vanilla townie, Shanba is roleblocking me as he's announced.

[Patrick]

So yeah, I'll hammer later today. I'll let anyone who has any last comments have a chance first.

[Patrick]

Well, ok, but let's not go into night with any doubt about who's being blocked tonight.

If Guardian is scum, then it's probably marginally better if he is blocked. But if we're both protown, it would probably be more helpful to have me cleared than to have Guardian cleared, since some people seem unreasonably paranoid about my alignment.

I think blocking me tonight is probably for the best.

[Patrick]

JDodge, why is blocking Guardian better? Rishi, who do you think should be blocked if JDodge is town?

[Patrick]

You realise that Bookitty is confirmed innocent right?

[Patrick]

My above post was directed at Rishi of course.

Bookitty, I asked that same question earlier today, and the answer is that scum can forego nightkills.

[Patrick]

There's no way Shanba is making up his claim anyway. As town or scum.

[Patrick]

Yay! That makes it nice and easy!

I agree with Rishi that the game was very dull to start with. I remember feeling so apathetic at the time. The mnene scum lynch was absolutely vital at that point, I don't think we'd have got back into it otherwise. I'm happy that I woke up on day 3 and actually contributed something useful in pursuing Setael. At the end I was still pretty close between thinking it was JDodge or Rishi. Luckily the other two unknowns looked very protown to me.

I really like the concept of Picking your Poison (and I'm shortly running a mini theme based on it), but I don't think this specific setup should be tried again, because the powerole choices for scum seem pretty routine. I'd have been shocked to see a cop in this game.

Thanks to Thesp for modding, and well played everyone else.

As an aside for Bookitty: I mentioned to Ether a few weeks ago how often you seem to say, "I could be wrong" or something similar. You say it so often that you've been nominated to have it as a title here.

[Patrick]

In this case it was mainly process of elimination; like I said, the other two seemed very protown.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Finding scum is more important than looking protown. In fact, if you are actively trying to look protown to others, it might make you look worse, since that's what scum are trying to do.

[Patrick]

I'd be more inclined to replace the cop with a vig. What would people choose out of (doc, roleblocker, vig)?