Mini 471: End.

[Sir Tornado]

OMGUS

Vote camisade

[Sir Tornado]

I'll throw out a random

vote: deadscilent

for having a name I don't understand.

Er... I thought it was simple: "dead's client"

Right?

[Sir Tornado]

I'll throw out a random

vote: deadscilent

for having a name I don't understand.

Er... I thought it was simple: "dead's client"

Right?

OMFG SO WRONG.

Unvote:

Vote: SIR TORNADO

ALSO I CALL BULLSHIT ON Blue Zebra, his display pic is a fucking monkey, LAL!!!!!!!!


P.S <3 random voting stage

How do you know that it is a fucking monkey? I see only the monkey... not any of the activities it may be involved in!

FOS Pickemgenius

for concealing the source of this information from town.

(Before anyone asks, this is not a serious FOS)

[Sir Tornado]

FOS Adel

for favouring the Sicilian defence. That's MY favourite move! Not to be used against me.

[Sir Tornado]

Crap, I totally did not notice the second page and the vote count and the fact that we are out of the random voting phase.

Unvote

[Sir Tornado]

Just because the collective brainpower of Team Mafia Scum can't find a response to 1.e4 c5 in 6 hours doesn't mean that I am destroying them.

Actually, we are divided whether to play c3 or Kf3. Individually, we would have done the either of the move in about 5 seconds. But there is a huge issue with time zones. I'd like to play a game against you personally after this one is over. That would be quite quick.

Team mafia scum only consists of 2-3 noobs (sry Sir T) that couldn't play for their lives.

Gah, meet me sometime in the Gen. Mish Mash forum.

Adel wagon seems to have 4 votes now...

[Sir Tornado]

@Nabakov: I see where you're coming from, and to be honest, I didn't previously post after 100% analyzing the situation. I just read the thread, noticed people suddenly get all serious after having made equally "stupid meta-game moves" and not get serious until a specific person gets targeted, and then both of them turning the attention to someone else... Meh, at the very least, I wanted to see how you guys were going to react.

My vote's staying on Adel for now, my gut feeling is still there, and if you ever get nervous about 4 votes on Adel, well there are a couple of others that can take out their votes on her ( votes under "stupid metagame reasons" ) mine's staying.

Really? Let me remind you why your voted for Adel:

Vote: Adel

for being scum, also her complexe diagrams are meant to confuse the town...

If that wasn't metagaming or random, then what was it? If that was metagaming (or even random) then why are you saying others should take their votes off her because they are "stupid metagame reasons"?

So, basically, you are saying your vote is staying on someone because they put up complex diagrams?! (I find her diagrams very useful, I might add)

[Sir Tornado]

Read my sig ---> its true.

I disagree. It was a shame that this game was still running when Lowell made that comment, due to which I could not link it there and then. As you will see that is a "quicklynch". They do happen.

I can show you more games (check out the latest Jester mafia if you like) in which I am currently participating where we had lynches in about 12 hours or so. (that is 12 hours between the first and last vote)

[Sir Tornado]

You may even want to look through my games and see how many bandwagons I've successfully started day 1 (hint: about 5 out of 7) and carried through to lynch.

And how many of them were correct lynches? (correct as in scum)

[Sir Tornado]

Kravhen:

Your post 43 says:

Oh what's this I see?

NabakovNabakov

wrote:

Ok, it's mildly serious time, guys.

Pickem, I will unvote you if you can make a single post without caps lock.

Final Fos: ABR for dropping the third vote on Adel. If we lynch her now, we don't get any diagrams later.

It was all fun and nonsense until a few votes drop on Adel. Ohh crap now it's mildly serious time, scumbuddy Adel is in trouble, gotta get worked up and point at Albert. Adel then follows her scumbuddy Nabakov's initiative and votes for Albert accusing him of "jumping on a wagon without reason". Strangely enough, Nabakov's previous "Wagon: Teh Scummz who are they again Pickem?" didnt seem like it was jumping on a wagon without reason to Adel =/

How's this for a mildly serious post? =P

Unvote: CrashTextDummie

Vote: Adel

for being scum, also her complexe diagrams are meant to confuse the town..

FoS: NabakovNabakov

for being Adel's scumbuddy

FoS: CrashTextDummie

for being a lurker AKA sleeping in mafia mansion while his buddies are "out at work" apparently having a hard time escaping my wrath!!

I originally took this in as a non serious random voting post, especially since you vote Adel and FOS 2 people with a lot of confidence (only random posts do that so early on in the game with no N0)

But, then, in your immediately next post, that is post 56, you say:

@Nabakov: I see where you're coming from, and to be honest, I didn't previously post after 100% analyzing the situation. I just read the thread, noticed people suddenly get all serious after having made equally "stupid meta-game moves" and not get serious until a specific person gets targeted, and then both of them turning the attention to someone else... Meh, at the very least, I wanted to see how you guys were going to react.

My vote's staying on Adel for now, my gut feeling is still there, and if you ever get nervous about 4 votes on Adel, well there are a couple of others that can take out their votes on her ( votes under "stupid metagame reasons" ) mine's staying.

This basically establishes that your vote, contrary to what you said in your earlier post was not random, nor was it metagaming.

On being asked by me regarding how it was not random or metagamed, you replied:

SirTornado you just quoted my vote: because she's scum... Take a look at the whole thread and you might find out what sparked the feeling in me that she's scum..

So now, we take a look at Adel's activities so far in this game upto your post 56 (that is until you said "your vote on Adel was not random).

1. Random vote on Blue Zebra
2. Random FOS on me
3. Comment about our ongoing chess match.
4. Comment about her (cheeky) sig.
5. Votes ABR for trying to quicklynch her (I put this down as some kind of OMGUS in my notes)
6. Comments on her diagrams

That's it.

Now, justify your statement:

SirTornado you just quoted my vote: because she's scum... Take a look at the whole thread and you might find out what sparked the feeling in me that she's scum..

This is my question/reply to your following request:

Still too much is possible. I want to hear more from the silent ones. If you don't know what to say, then comment on the whole me VS Adel saga, tell us what you think. Talk.

[Sir Tornado]

You may even want to look through my games and see how many bandwagons I've successfully started day 1 (hint: about 5 out of 7) and carried through to lynch.

And how many of them were correct lynches? (correct as in scum)

None. Not a single one of them. Think about it.

Er... yeah. I am thinking about it.

BTW, just so I get the things correctly:

Check my birthdate and my number of game posts before you start threatening me. It isn't going to win you any games. Talk to ABR about it, and next time remember to look before you leap. You may even want to look through my games and see how many bandwagons I've successfully started day 1 (hint: about 5 out of 7) and carried through to lynch. If I was scum I would not be making this post, no, I would be getting you lynched in the next ten pages.

I may be wrong in my interpretation, but it gets a bit confusing here. Are you saying that had you been scum, you would have carried out the Kravhen bandwagon straight away? And, because you are not carrying it out, you intend to tell him that you are not scum?

If it is then, I know you said:

And everyone else: please spare me the WIFOM noise, I am just telling the boy what is what.

But I will still say it: WIFOM! And, your comment about knowing it is WIFOM and telling us not to mention it sounds sort of like saying

"I know you will call this WIFOM, but I am still saying it, so it is not a WIFOM"

, which is even more WIFOMish.

[Sir Tornado]

I also want to use this opportunity to shift some focus to those who still have their votes on Adel. For all we know they could be scum that placed their votes first disguised in randomvoteness and patiently waiting for lynch. Or they could be scumbuddies that think Adel's identity is compromised and dont dare defend her =P

I don't like this. How are either of those possibilities more likely than the votes just being lingering random votes?

BTW, pickem is active lurking, which is worse than regular lurking.

unvote, vote: pickemgenius

I agree. Pickemgenius, a bit more content perhaps? What do you think of Kravhen voting Adel with an ostensibly non-random non-metagame post, being so sure that she is scum and then unvoting her?

[Sir Tornado]

EBWOP: In my last post...

...What do you think of Kravhen voting Adel with an ostensibly non-random non-metagame

post

...

That should be "

vote

"

[Sir Tornado]

Oh hai!!


I can start playing now!

Good. Then, let's hear you reply to my post 100

[Sir Tornado]

Is there a specific reason you voted camisade, pickem?

Heh, hasn't said much, ofcourse Patrick hasn't said much (he will though) and CTD hasn't been able to post a bunch, and from what I've seen from him doesn't post a shitload anyway, so that's why for now.

Is it because I called you Village Idiot? Sorry, I was just confused because all your posts had been really weird, but your posts since CTD showed up have been good. I'm feeling really overwhelmed, because no Mafia game (on other sites) I've ever been in has had this much activity.

And @ Albert B. Rampage, I think krahven was acting pretty scummy. He said that his vote stayed on Adel because of his gut-feeling, and that his vote was the only valid vote? I really didn't get that,

"only valid one" meant sure it was the fourth vote, but it was the only justified one after 3 silly/random votes...

Yet, had it not been for the 3 silly votes, your vote would not have got a chance to be remotely valid. It was based on bizzare logic that NabNab voted ABR because his supposedly scum buddy Adel had 3 votes on her, and Adel followed NabNab in voting for ABR.

And...

Now I'll Unvote: Adel because that seems to be what some of you are waiting for.

It looks like you are trying a to fit in and comply with everyone's wishes.

I also want to use this opportunity to shift some focus to those who still have their votes on Adel.

Uncomfortable being the town's focus?

For all we know they could be scum that placed their votes first disguised in randomvoteness and patiently waiting for lynch.

Hmm... I don't know about this. But, you know, the town will have to be especially daft if it is to random lynch anyone here. Although I have seen a couple of towns doing that, I don't think this town will.

Or they could be scumbuddies that think Adel's identity is compromised and dont dare defend her

If you think that is the case then why unvote Adel?

BTW, your earlier statement doesn't agree with that last quote...

It was all fun and nonsense until a few votes drop on Adel. Ohh crap now it's mildly serious time, scumbuddy Adel is in trouble, gotta get worked up and point at Albert. Adel then follows her scumbuddy Nabakov's initiative and votes for Albert accusing him of "jumping on a wagon without reason". Strangely enough, Nabakov's previous "Wagon: Teh Scummz who are they again Pickem?" didnt seem like it was jumping on a wagon without reason to Adel =/

From what I can make out, you are saying Adel and NabNab are scum and trying to bandwagon ABR.

People who were voting for Adel just before that:

Albert, Blue Zebra, Pickem

So, you have already said that Albert is town and NabNab and Adel are trying to bandwagon him. That leaves BZ and Pickem (according to your post that is) to be scum with Adel and NabNab.

Then, you say:

Or they (

people who voted for Adel

could be scumbuddies that think Adel's identity is compromised and dont dare defend her

How is that possible? And how could it be "they"? Usually in a standard game of 12, you only have 3 scum, with a possible SK. NabNab wasn't voting for Adel if you check it again.

Sorry, but those two comments of yours don't fit in together.

[Sir Tornado]

Now I am left wondering if your reaction to his possible scumtell is a scumtell or not.

Every action in this game can be, by some way or another classified as a scum tell. What one has to do is to select the stronger scum tell from the others and concentrate on it.

[Sir Tornado]

Sir Tornado, you are currently not voting anyone. So how suspicious are you of kravhen? You've put a fair amount of effort into attacking him, and you think he's contradicted himself several times. Is that enough for a vote at this early stage? It kind of feels like you're waiting to see whether people will agree with you before you commit to voting him.

I usually don't put my vote on anyone. so early in the day, except for a random or a pressure vote. In most of my games, I am usually the last or somewhere near the last to vote. You can meta game if you want and see that I do have not voted right now in any of my games which are past the random stage. That is because when I usually do vote a serious vote, I don't unvote or change it unless I see a very strong argument for it.

[Sir Tornado]

EBWOP

You can meta game if you want and see that I

do

have not voted right now in any of my games which are past the random stage.

Disregard that bolded "do".

[Sir Tornado]

SirT: Been pretty active, and especially aggressive towards me, although still pointing out odd things from pickem and adel, yet has never laid a vote nor a FoS. He claims he is a conservative voter and only makes "pressure and random votes". Not really sure what to make of that statement. You put quite alot of pressure on me quoting me 10x in a post, shouldnt such pressure be nicely coupled with a "pressure vote"? You are possibly afraid of committing to voting before a bunch of others have already done so. You also say you are always in the last ones to cast a vote. This could mean "hey i might cast the hammer vote but im not scum". Voting is town's only weapon along with talking, and not using it well could hurt town. Always voting towards the end also means you tend to vote when the lynchee has already pretty much been decided, so that your vote seems like its "just following the flow", the bandwagon.

1. No, there shouldn't be a pressure vote on you atm because you are answering quite well without any pressure votes on you. If you started staying quiet after me asking you questions then that would be the time for pressure votes.

2. And, no, I don't cast the hammering vote. I never have. The only time I have cast a hammering vote was in an endgame situation (and at that juncture, I had to vote for someone). That does not mean I won't in the future, but right now, I am stating the facts. My votes usually put the people on a -2 or -1 (or -3 or -4 in larger games)

3. You are right. The people I vote for usually have quite a few votes on them. The reason for this is, that whilst some people vote on finding slightest suspicion, or moderate suspicion, I vote only when I am dead convinced that some one is a scum. (unless that vote is to drive the lurkers out, which is again a kind of a pressure vote). When that happens, usually the person has quite a few votes on him before I cast my vote. Also, usually that person does get lynched. So, when I vote, it usually doesn't come off unless the lynchee does some pretty good explaining.

PS: Pretty nice OMGUS there.

[Sir Tornado]

@Sir T: Mabye you don't vote until you're fairly certain, or maybe you just don't vote until enough other people are certain enough for you to comfortably follow along. Restricting yourself to late votes seems like scum trying to blend in or a townie who can't be bothered to make his own cases.

I do make my own cases against people, and point out the things I feel are scummy. I just never vote for them at that time.

And, I do this precisely because this strategy suits me when I am both scum as well as town. I do not have to change my general play style much whether I am playing either alignment. Make it that much harder for people to meta game my style in the future.

[Sir Tornado]

So you adopt a moderately scummy playstyle so you can use it as town and scum?

That just smacks of laziness.

This is not "moderately scummy". I am currently appearing on "pro-town" list of most of the town in at least more than half the games I am in.

[Sir Tornado]

I meant that i expect this game to get quite a bit more interesting over the next couple of pages. I'm happy making an inane pressure vote on Blue Zebra because he really does need to post more. I am always suspicious of players who seem to be through and precise editors.

People who are precise and thorough editors are so despite the roles they have. If a person is generally a precise and thorough editor, he will do so while playing townie as well as scum. How does this classify as any kind of scum tell?

[Sir Tornado]

Unvote: Blue Zebra, Vote: Sir Tornado. Dude, noncommittal is you! Going mostly off your post against kravhen, it seems you find him plenty suspiscious, so why the carp don't you vote for him?

I think I have already answered that.

[Sir Tornado]

While you do your read through, could you pay particular attention to Sir Tornado and the case against Sir Tornado? I think there may be something there, but I'm not sure what that something is yet.

The case against me? Sure, it goes something along the lines of I am attacking Kravhen but not voting for him.

[Sir Tornado]

BZ: Well, they may appear to you and/or NabNab as misrepresentations, but I was quite sincere making them.

[Sir Tornado]

I am still here.

[Sir Tornado]

I am not mafia. And, Kravhen, how exactly did I get to the top of your scumdar? I have already said that my comments towards you were made with utmost sincerity... and I don't actually remember you accusing me at all... (I think it was Patrick who did)

[Sir Tornado]

Adel... why are you unvoting an person you have just built a case against? Because no one is buying it...?

What is your rationale for voting Haut Boy? Pressure vote?

[Sir Tornado]

I am starting to think of ds as being a potential VI. I'm not really committed to voting for Haut Boy, but I am interested in being a part of the wagon on him because I am interested in where it is going.

What do you mean by you are interested in where HB wagon is going?

[Sir Tornado]

He started out by focusing only on the chess game with Adel, then switched to flat out attacking Kravhen with rehashed arguments. I have yet to see anything original from him, and I still don't like the way he explained his playstyle.

Chess game discussion was in the random stage...

What do you mean by rehashed arguments? No one had made any of those arguments in this game before me.

So, in what way would you like me to explain my playstyle?

[Sir Tornado]

Something less stupid than this please.

If you notice, the part you have quoted me for was a reply to a completely non game related observation of yours. You commented that my play style was lazy because I refused to change it when I play as scum or as town, which was, as far as I was concerned, not related to this particular game, but as a general comment on my play style. As far as I was concerned, I could reply to it in whatever way I see it fit to. It really doesn't add up as a scum tell or anything, and it was certainly not a defence of my behaviour in any particular game. I would have given you the same reply had you asked me this outside the game too.

[Sir Tornado]

@Sir T: Sorry about being cheeky and quoting just that bit, but I really didn't like that that was how you explained away my suspicions of your playstyle. I know this falls more under lynching the player than anything, but I think a playstyle like yours would be very easy for scum to hide in.

It is. That is precisely the reason why I adopted this play style. But, it is extremely bad play to simply lynch me

because

of it, especially if I employ it in all my games, because, obviously, I can't be scum in all of them, nor do I get accused of being one (even by you!) by majority of town in all of them.

In case you need reference, see my play in Open 35: Big Love Mafia, in which we are both in. If you notice carefully, I am using the same play style I am using here, over there, and you seem to be fine by it.

As far as your other comments are concerned, I needed to check out the earlier pages, which is why I did not reply in my last post. I don't quite agree with it either. My attack against Kravhen had been used in principle by Adel earlier, but she hadn't used the exact logic, nor the same arguments which I used. I think "following" is based on the logic they are following, and not on the principle which is being followed by people...

[Sir Tornado]

@Sir T: Right, I get townvibes from your play in Big Love, and scumvibes from your play here. Because you're using the exact same playstyle in both, and we've already established it can be used by scum or town, it pretty much locks the meta-game on you being scum here.

I see. Well, then tell me why you are getting scum vibes from me in this game.

[Sir Tornado]

ds and Haut Boy seem less scummy to me than Sir T and ABR, or at least less dangerous as scum.

This is craplogic.

Oh, actually, I agree with Adel. I am very dangerous as scum.

[Sir Tornado]

lol. It is still craplogic since, a person's danger as scum is only as much as they are believed. If we are both leading bandwagons, I doubt we represent any danger to the town.

WIFOM.

[Sir Tornado]

lol. It is still craplogic since, a person's danger as scum is only as much as they are believed. If we are both leading bandwagons, I doubt we represent any danger to the town.

Ok, I'll expand my reply a bit more this time.

Making people believe you are not scum, and making them follow you, when you actually are scum is just one of the aspects of playing scum. Also equally important is spreading misinformation among the townies, making them distrust each other (in other words, dividing the town), as well as tying yourself successfully with an utterly innocent townsperson so as to protect your scum buddies when you are lynched. A scum looking scummy is, in fact quite dangerous in that respect, because he can tie up the town in lot of WIFOM logic with his behaviour. A good scum player leaves the entire town mulling thinking about his actions having 2 or 3 interpretations, after he is lynched and is revealed as scum.

[Sir Tornado]

Nay. A good scum doesn't get caught. I have been in games where terrible scum benefited the mafia the most for their irrational acts.

It is unfair to expect a good scum to never get caught due to meta gaming reasons. People eventually catch on to him. Instead, he should focus on how to hurt the town while he is still alive, and making sure that it doesn't get disregarded when he is actually killed.

[Sir Tornado]

I don't actually think Adel is scum. The only real scummy thing she has done so far is unvoting Haut Boy and then saying she is not going to join my bandwagon when, in fact she

had

increased my chances of getting lynched considerably by simply unvoting HB... but I am not sure after that... the problem is, that Adel is making a lot of crazy plays like this in most of the games I am with her; it seems like a new trademark for her. I believe she changed her playstyle from her earlier saner version because she kept getting NKed on N1 everytime. This will probably keep getting her lynched D1 most of the time.

NabNab is probably innocent. ABR seems innocent too. When I went to bed after my exchange with ABR, I was thinking may be Patrick is scum (because Patrick voted me for an extremely silly reason -- that I was not voting anyone -- and kept his vote there), but I am not sure now after the last two pages.

I don't have much time right now, but if I am lynched at deadline, you should take look at Blue Zebra's jump on my wagon in 414 -- absolutely without any reason at all, and how Kravhen voted me in 458 (for which I would like to see his explanation even if I do get lynched, so someone please ask him that tomorrow)

I stick to Kravhen being scum at deadline.

Vote: Kravhen

[Sir Tornado]

I can't see how Kravhen can be innocent.

And, I am ever weary of any bandwagon started by ABR. Good scumhunter as he may be, he does tend to mislynch obviously pro-town people even while he is town himself (I am not saying Adel is obvious pro-town, but her behaviour in this game seems to be in sync with her behaviour elsewhere...).

However, unless there is a miracle, I see either me or Adel getting lynched... and I am town, while Adel, I think is not scum either.

[Sir Tornado]

Isn't this day over yet?

[Sir Tornado]

SirT-- for his bogus suspicions.

I assure you that my suspicions are real, not bogus.

Me either, which is why Im cautious of doing so.

Why would he claim to being scum if he really was scum?

Who would do that.

and His comment sounded sarcastic to me also.

Alas, I dont know what to do.

I was not being sarcastic at all, and, I certainly did not claim scum.

Adel is pretty high on my scum list also.

I didn't think at the beginning of the game that she was, but she has gotten onto wayyyy too many bandwagons to believe that she is pro-town.

The reasons for which you are bandwagoning Adel are not valid, IMO. Just jumping on people all the time doesn't make anyone scummy -- not Adel most of all, who does this quite a lot on day 1.

What you should look at while a person is bandwagoning someone else, is not the number of times they vote or unvote. What counts is their intention while bandwagoning -- is the vote with the intention to get a lynch or not? Look at Adel's vote on Patrick: It hardly lasted for something like 4-5 posts. There was absolutely no chance of getting Patrick lynched. What concerns me, is that people seem to have set it in RCC that vote-hopping is bad. I really disagree with that: You have to analyze each case separately.

You should put yourself in scum's shoes and see whether the scum would actually gain anything from doing what they are doing. I actually do not see any reason behind Adel's vote hopping if she was actually scum. All that she needed to do was sit back and watch me get lynched. She did not have any realistic hope of deflecting my bandwagon on anyone else except herself. This is why I think she is town.

[Sir Tornado]

And there were a lot of people who tried to go after kravhen day1, just something to think about.

A lot of people? I thought I was the only one to do that!

[Sir Tornado]

ABR... first, keeping in mind my post 525, explain the Adel lynch and why you thought she was scummy.

[Sir Tornado]

I do not like ABR's reason for lynching Adel too much, but I can partly understand that because I do tend to meta game people a lot too. I'll get back at ABR later.

For now, IGMEO the other people on the Adel wagon. Look at the circumstances in which they switched vote yesterday:

Deadscilent

In post 471, she says that she thinks Haut Boy is scum.

In post 473, she says I am not scum based on my posts about my scum history. It can be interpreted in a pro-town way by me because I was the easiest person to be lynched at that time. Yet, she did not vote for me...

In post 475, she then says Adel is high on her list too. I wonder if she'd mentioned it earlier, and her reasons for putting Adel on the top of her scum list.

Post 477, she takes her vote off Haut Boy, she says she "lets him off" that time. Why? Why let someone off if you believe they are scum?

492, she tells Patrick he is far down on her list as perspective scum. She then votes Adel without any reason.

517, calls my suspicions on Kravhen bogus, and FOSes me.

Bad as this seems, there are 2 things in this that strikes me as being indicators of townie play:

1) She did not jump on my bandwagon, when it was quite easy to mislynch me and get away with it.

2) She called my suspicions on Kravhen, who turned out to be a townie bogus... I am not sure whether a scum would have done that. It is not what she posted that matters to me, as the fact that she did post does. Her posting at that time gave people the possible opportunity to question her vote on Adel right at the end of the day, where you can make slips as scum, and due to that reason, I would not have posted at all had I been deadscilent, after my vote on Adel till day 2 were I scum.

Patrick

Was, for large parts of the game convinced that I was scum, on reasons I thought were very feeble.

In post 478, he says that he did not find my comments about my record as scum, as scummy. I would say that is pro-town, EXCEPT the fact that had a good and experienced player like Patrick said anything else at all, he would have been marked as certain scum.

In the same post, he calls Adel's jumping bandwagons scummy, and raises the possibility of me being scum with her. This, I part, I do find scummy. In fact, I find any and all suggestions of Adel being scum because of her vote hopping extremely scummy. That provides perfect opportunity for the scum to jump her the action is not actually scummy, but everyone thinks it is, and hence provides an ideal opportunity for people to jump on the Adel wagon. I am surprised Patrick would think of that kind of vote hopping as scummy.

In post 500, Patcrick votes for Adel, despite having said earlier that he finds me scummier. Why?

Erotomachia

Again, in 460 lists me as his choice for the list (but, it is interesting to note that he himself had never actually attacked me or tried to get clarification for my play any time on day 1 from me.)

In post 465, he votes me because Haut Boy and I were tied (we were, in fact NOT tied at all. I was leading by 2 votes)

Post 498, he suddenly, for some reason, gets squeamish to lynch me at deadline, and wants to cast his vote on someone else.

Post 502, he asks ABR to convince him to vote Adel instead. In 511, he switches vote to Adel for unbelievably feeble reasoning by ABR. It appears to me, that he wanted ABR to give reasons for Adel wagon, not to convince himself, but to just allow him a reason to vote Adel after having called me scummy first.

I really don't like how Erotomachia, Patrick and Deadscilent were easily convinced by ABR to change their vote to Adel for completely non existent reasons. I do not like the the way they followed ABR.

[Sir Tornado]

Not a good D1. I still maintain that we were shoehorned into a lynch we weren't ready for, but we still need to step up the play if we want to catch scum.

I really did consider making a case on Albert, the way he awoke from pointlessness and campaigned for votes on Adel just hours before deadline (in order to get revenge on her for playing poorly in another game) was unquestionably scummy, and even moreso now that Adel has been revealed as our Doc. I know that Albert doesn't have a reputation for subtlety, but I couldn't even see Albert-scum being so blatant. This is essentially where we get to WIFOM, so I'll stop. But I will place a

huge

FOS: Albert

because Occam would have wanted me to.

Additionally: *Standard lurker speech* The first two people who posted today are dead, and only 4 people (myself included) have posted since.

You attacked me pretty much the entire day yesterday, and not mention me at all in your first post on day 2? Why?

[Sir Tornado]

Some of your late actions yesterday put me in real doubt about my suspicion of you. I thought you weren't really playing in self preservation which is how scum play, remember I talked about that in my post 31.

That is WIFOM. I could be not playing for self preservation to

make you think

I am not scum, and could, in fact be scum. Not playing for self preservation is not a town tell at all. Depends a lot on the player. Many townies play to desperately survive as much as scum.

[Sir Tornado]

I'm not one of those players who, if the person they're accusing isn't lynched, just drops their vote back on them the next day. I still think that your early behavior concerning Kravhen was fairly scummy, but your recent analysis (525, 538) definitely strikes "lack of original thinking/suspicions" off my list of scumtells. My Eye is definitely still On You, but now that we've entered a new day, I feel like there's some room to pursue other lines of inquiry.

My 525 can be as good as ignored as a town tell, actually, because it was made after the deadline had passed. In fact, I would have made exactly the same post had I been scum too. There is absolutely no harm for scum in saying "X is not scum for so and so reasons" AFTER X has been effectively lynched.

538 is a merely a post accusing 3 people who have just switched bandwagons on the last moment to lynch the doctor. It is what most scum would do too.

Why don't you find those possibly scummy posts by me scummy?

[Sir Tornado]

Sir Tornado, why do you keep insisting that you would play exactly the same way if you were scum?

My day 1 play was on purpose. There was a reason for that, and before the game ends, you might understand it. If no one does, I can perhaps do it in another game if I get the same role.

As regards to day 2... well, there is quite a different reason for that, but this I hope to disclose before the day is over (or perhaps on D3 if I survive)

[Sir Tornado]

BZ: I know I am town, and I think that ABR would not have any incentive to push the Adel wagon when I was going to be voted out, unless he knew Adel had a power role, which don't see how he could know.

I have been in 3 games with ABR (not including this) and in all three of them, ABR has done some crazy stuff (like outing his fellow mason without any reason, claiming a psychopath when he was in fact a doctor and claiming a SK on day 1) or other, so I have given up trying to outguess him.

[Sir Tornado]

PS to the last post:

I will concede that he claimed SK when he was in fact a Jester... but it was still crazy.

[Sir Tornado]

FOS: Deadscilent

I don't like that vote on NabNab at all. Explain.

[Sir Tornado]

*gets prodded*

I am waiting for Theo to post his views...

[Sir Tornado]

Cronx: I don't think the mod's warning was to not discuss the NKs IN thread... that is completely legal.

NKs are ordered by the scum, so if the town decides what to do or what not to do based on the NKs, the scum can manipulate the discussions. Having said that, we do learn a lot of things from NKs.

BTW, I don't think your second doc/back up doc protecting the mafia target and vig getting Kravhen could be correct. I think I was the only person to suspect Kravhen D1, and I can assure you I am not a vig.

I like Cronx's post 595.

[Sir Tornado]

Adel is hardly ever in Scum chat...

[Sir Tornado]

Ah, yes, this is, actually a good idea.

People who frequent scum chat and are playing this game:

Pickem
CTD
Sir T.

CTD was replaced by Haut Boy and then by Chronx, and is out of the game, but he still knows his role. It is likely he made a mistake and let his role slip out. Or, Pickem could.

So, I will just:

Vote: Chronx

[Sir Tornado]

FOS: Sir Tornado for trying to spin an unfortunate incident into a bandwagon.

One vote is a bandwagon?

[Sir Tornado]

Note the "trying." Your vote wasn't made on in-game reasons, so it couldn't have been used to punctuate arguments or apply pressure. (How is somebody supposed to defend themsevles against something like that?) I see no other explanation than a poor attempt at a wagon.

I metagame a lot. Almost my entire first day case in Big Love mafia against Ryan was based on metagame arguments (And, I am dead, and revealed as townie in that game)

I used that argument, because that is the shortest shortlist I found of people to consider. I am not averse to using out of game reasons (as long as it is not cheating or communicating with anyone outside) to hunt scum.

[Sir Tornado]

There's a reason that Patrick withdrew from the game. It was to avoid exactly the kind of behavior you're exhibiting right now.

Patrick withdrew because he heard something he shouldn't have. I haven't heard anything like that. I am merely speculating. There is a difference.

Kravhen: Now, that you are back, can you explain your reasons for voting me yesterday? (I am merely asking this out of curiousity rather than anything else, because obv that vote was from a pro-town player)

[Sir Tornado]

Blue Zebra, why did you vote Erotomachia?

[Sir Tornado]

unvote

Vote: Albert B. Rampage

The vote stays until Albert starts posting and provides a satisfactory response to why he thought Adel was more scummier than me (please no more"meta game" reasons)

I don't like the fact that Albert is being let off due to the "too scummy to be scum" fallacy.

[Sir Tornado]

Albert, I find your D1 play highly suspicious after I reread. WHY did you lead a counter-wagon against my wagon? And that too against the Doc? You practically seem to be pleading for people to vote Adel hours before the deadline. I see no reason for a townie to have done that on D1. It reeks of scum linking.

[Sir Tornado]

Kravhen: JDodge doesn't annoy as much as PEG does. JD lurks a lot and simply pops up accusing someone of being scum while withholding his reasons and goes back to lurking. That scares the shit out of some people. But, he does that without the use of unnecessary smilies and exclamation marks, so that's not so annoying.

[Sir Tornado]

Funny... I certainly don't remember agreeing that Deadscilent was the VI. I find that the term VI is overused anyway. There are only a few people who are actually VIs. I don't think deadscilent is one of them.

(If you want to know how VIs play, check out a guy named Klopyrev's play in Mini 466. THAT'S a VI)

[Sir Tornado]

unvote

vote kravhen

I don't like his 698. I also don't like that NabNab and Erotomachia are giving him a free pass due to DS being a VI. I also fail to see why he insisted that old kravhen's and new kravhen's views shouldn't be same if they have same allignment.

FOS Albert

[Sir Tornado]

Bah, good luck tracking the remaining scum guys...

Another game where I am NKed

[Sir Tornado]

Kravhen... I don't get why you lied about your claim, and that too at LyLo. It sucked.

Also, I am disappointed at the way people bought Kravhen's claim. He claimed watcher and described the abilities of a tracker. Sheesh!

[Sir Tornado]

Albert... D3sisted/Patrick was possibly the only pro-town player who had some sense (apart from me obv). Both you and Kravhen broke the golden rule of "never lie as town". You deserved to lose.