Micro 442: Twin Trap Game Over

[Fresh]

/confirmed

[Fresh]

Leave me alone meanie!

[Fresh]

VOTE: Flubbernugget

100% OMGUS

[Fresh]

He was just my neighbor in our previous game and he abused me emotionally.

[Fresh]

FINISH HIM!

[Fresh]

Ok the self vote thing seems dumb. I don't like the reaction test thing as an excuse but it could be easy for both people voting Grib to do it as a safe excuse.

In my games on this site so far I've learned that the reaction test tends not to work out well at all and it comes off very anti-town like. Seems to be the sentiment here.

My vote allready rests on Flubbernugget, that's why.

I might change it you though, at some point ^^

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Zymf

Because even with a vote count posted above him he doesn't know who he's voting for.

[Fresh]

Well I think its both. It is an easy wagon for scum to hop on but I think self voting is 100% antitown in general. It doesn't mean you are anti-town for sure but its an anti-town thing to do. If town didn't do anti-town things then we wouldn't have mislynches.

[Fresh]

I missread the vote count.. It was flubbernugget who voted on me

Which is still not a good reason for not knowing who

you

were voting.

[Fresh]

I really don't think self-voting is all that antitown, especially on D1 during pseudo-RVS. Eh.

Why does Zymf forgetting his vote make him scum?

I've seen more 'lack of attention' on this site be purposeful so I'm spotting it early. It actually cost me my last game cuz Flubber lured me into a trap.

[Fresh]

The problem that I had with that post is that misreading the post count doesn't justify you saying you were voting Flubber. It was the other way around but you were voting me which is unrelated to that mixup.

[Fresh]

So sorry for inactivity. We were moving house today. Leave me some questions if you want and I'll answer them tomorrow and I will read over all the pages that suddenly appeared when I get to it.

[Fresh]

Ok.

Two questions for Lalendra
1. Why did you hammer before more conversation was had? Aronis's lynch was a sure thing.
2. In post 252, you questioned why no one would believe Kaboose. This is of course prior to his flip from last night but what reason did you have at the time to NOT believe Kaboose after that post?

[Fresh]

1. He wanted to be hammered. It was clear he was scum. There was literally no reason to keep him alive, why not just finish him off and proceed through the rest of the game? The sooner we lynch the sure scum, the sooner we can proceed with finding the other one. There also wasn't any conversation happening - as Grib pointed out, each of the people we were supposedly waiting for had already posted; again, no reason to wait.
2. I am always skeptical of any claim. It seemed odd to me that anyone would just automatically believe a town PR claim without waiting for a counterclaim, or asking any questions. Kaboose was obviously telling the truth, as evidenced by the fact that Aronis all but admitted that he was scum (an argument could be made he was actually playing against his wincon with the way he played but w/e), and that coupled with the lack of a counterclaim made me believe him.

1. Despite Aronis spamming the thread, there could have been conversation. I for one was moving house as I posted and never got the chance to contribute to the discussion.

2. This is the big one. Kaboose had a PR. You wanna protect the PRs. Now he outed being a tracker which if I understand this mechanic correctly means he nailed the watcher scum (this of course was not confirmed until after the lynch but that's what I believe). Thus his PR was useless after the watch-immune was nailed. Ultimately there's no reason to out that kind of info unless its true because you're making a big gamble doing it. And to your part about waiting for the counterclaim, there was time supposed to be allowed for it...but someone hammered.

Intent to hammer on my end. But will give benice the chance to post first.

[Fresh]

Well if you have intent to hammer and I have intent to hammer, then lets just game over this.

VOTE: Lalendra

[Fresh]

Should go without saying but LYLO means no votes.

I'm at work but hopefully tonight/early tomorrow I'll get the opportunity to list my thoughts/reasons to believe each of you are town/scum and suspect you could potentially do the same to me/each other.

[Fresh]

Hi town buddy.

Ok I'm gonna talk about how I feel about each of you. I'll try to sprinkle in some questions. Tough spot but I'ma do my best.

----
Why Benice is scum: Before Grib flipped, he seemed so positive about him being town. Extra information perhaps? A quite solid kill to try and confuse all of us since we've not expressed much about reads on one another. A great way to potentially steer a mislynch.
Why Benice is town: Day 2 is a strong townread for benice. Promotes discussion, tries to steer us away from Aronis's spamming. Did a day 1 VC analysis which I've seen players both support and deny but to me this is an attempt to hunt the other scum.

Questions for Benice, Do you still feel BBMolla is town after the Aronis flip? Am I automatically scum?

Why BBmolla is scum: Little interaction. The Vote on Lalendra is worrysome without any sort of reasoning for it. We were incorrect about her flip but I don't appreciate the lack of reasoning. Post 343 looks more like you're trying to look town pointing out how it seems like you're painted to be setup but its also possible you were.
Why BBmolla is town: Best post was 242. Good analysis of the game and solid attack on Aronis pre-flip in posts prior to the tracker claim though could be seen as bussing at that point.

Questions for BBmolla: You just said based literally just on this page you'd say scum is Benice but not why. So...why? Am I a townread or just not as strong a scumread assuming you can explain your first question.

[Fresh]

WIFOM ahoy, but if I was scum I'd probably have attempted to look more town yesterday because I'd know I'd have to fight for myself in LYLO.

Like, I'm bad, but I'd only quietly sheep like I did as town who actually thinks the game is over. Because if I didnt think it was over I'd have posted more to set myself up better today.

We all have to fight for ourselves today anyway. It doesn't matter if you tried to look more town or not. One bad move and we are toast.

I liked 242 because he made what looks like a deduction that turned out to be true. Now again as I cited prior, that doesn't mean he didn't already have the prior knowledge but I get more of a town deductive reasoning vibe from it.

I made my comments on both your ISOs. I don't think he looks THAT town overall but for the moment I rank him over you. But I don't want to jump to conclusions at the same time.

Also I learned in my last game that I can't just scream "I'm town!" and expect to be believed. I had the game solved in LYLO but was defeated. I really need to get this one right.

[Fresh]

Ok. Wow there are some wrong things in that entire post and I'll be addressing that in a couple hours after my classes.

[Fresh]

For now, reread my ISO or something. I had my own reasons to vote for both Zymf and Lalendra. YOU are trying to paint it like I did not. Try again.

[Fresh]

You didn't even question my case on Lalendra. It didn't even cross your mind. You just went with it, the way you went with the Zymf wagon. And then there's the way you wanted to drag out the Aronis lynch after everyone had already posted.

Really? Because this sure paints me like I dont have reasons for those lynches. Hence my comment.

[Fresh]

1. Fresh, you have been on every lynch wagon except for Aronis'. Despite the fact that PoE makes it very clear you are the last, your ISO is also full of hedges, allowing you to avoid making any commitments to your reads:

2. Then there's the "here's what I think of both of you, and oh yeah, lemme try to convince one of you to vote the other" that you tried to pull off in post 345. So, like, you address BB as "town buddy" and then list off reasons you think he is scum. ??

3. Ok now, let's address this mess:

Before Grib flipped, he seemed so positive about him being town. Extra information perhaps? A quite solid kill to try and confuse all of us since we've not expressed much about reads on one another. A great way to potentially steer a mislynch.

Your points for why benice is scum are as follows:
1) Had a correct town read.
2) The NK is confusing.

Neither of these are valid scum tells in any way whatsoever.

4. BUT despite having, actually, better reasons for BB to be scum, you appeal to the post he made expressing his thoughts about me, in hopes of getting him to vote me.

5. Based on your posts though, logically, you should be thinking BB is mafia over me, considering your points against him are actually stronger. Yet, you don't, because BB posted just before this little show of yours that he thinks I'm scum. So what do you do? You try to feed that and appeal to him by asking him to give you reasons to push a case on me.

6. (As a side note, I also find it interesting that you liked BB's 242 "because it turned out to be true" but decide that having a correct townread means someone is scum. Bit of a double standard there, don't you think?)

7. BB's push on Aronis plus his obvious hesitation on reading my ISO tells me he's more likely town than you are.

1. Yes. Town mislynch. Often. Because players look scummy. I'm not avoiding commitments. I'm giving honest answers. All your quotes are showing that I'm considering both sides of something but you're purposely avoiding the fact that I had real reasons for voting Zymf and Lalendra. Lets not forget that

you also had intent to hammer Lalendra and provided nothing day 3 other than that

and yet now I am the bad guy because I'm the one that did it. This is why VC is not a true scum detector. I had my reasons stated for voting Lalendra which means I did not need to consider a case you made that didn't even exist on the day she was lynched.

2. Well I'm not scum. So by default one of the two of you are. And with this I can get reactions from each of you to help better make my determination.

3. Why not? I think they are. I've seen it in at least one of the 3 games I played on this site prior.

4. Again, ignoring the fact that I asked BB his thoughts about me as seen when I said

Am I a townread or just not as strong a scumread assuming you can explain your first question.

I clearly want to know how he is reading me as much as I want to know how he's reading you.

5. CLEARLY YOU'RE NOT REALLY READING ANYTHING!

I made my comments on both your ISOs. I don't think he looks THAT town overall but for the moment I rank him over you.

This says I'd vote BBmolla at that post.

Oh fuck benice looks pretty town in ISO

This says BBmolla thinks you're town.

6. That's my mistake because I made that argument as you were the one who posted 242 not Molla. I messed up my ISOs.

7. His hesitation makes him town but mine makes me scum. Bit of a double standard there don't you think?

[Fresh]

As to your 5, you're the one making vague posts, and I'm not reading anything? Cmon now.

Scum tactic. Someone calls you out on you missing something and you brush it aside and try to project how that person has faults instead.

Good job.

[Fresh]

And something is a scumtell for me it is. You can't just declare to the world with below average photography its not because I feel a certain way about something.

Here's how I feel about the NK. I feel that scum-Benice would have made that kill because of how obvious it was to make today more difficult.

You're trying to get me to put a vote out there. Because you're the one waiting to hammer. I can't believe you're trying to paint it such that "Oh Fresh is having a hard time deciding he must be scum". That's fucking absurd.

I'm trying to engage BBmolla as he asked for questions. Something you did not do at all until an hour ago. Even asking him a question about what his read on me might be can get a reaction. It gives you something to assess. You think your reads are the same 3 days into a game? That's an easy way to lose.

You say hedging I say indecision. I'm honestly laying out there that I'm considering all options while you're apparently more the tunnel-vision type.

I think my decision is getting easier. Perhaps the only thing we can agree on is that some input from BB would be nice.

[Fresh]

You are incorrect about my alignment and my lack of scumhunting but I'll back off and wait for an explanation.

[Fresh]

There is absolutely nothing to that. You said in 343 something about a town buddy that's all it was.

[Fresh]

Ben covered a lot of it but I can elaborate in a couple hours.

Still waiting on that elaboration...

@Benice, what do you have to say about 367. Asking about a townread like I did. Or are you gonna double standard that one too?

[Fresh]

No I do not need to explain the meta-argument because it is NOT a meta argument. Benice could be replaced in this equation by any player who posted the same as you did this game and had the same reads.

You're the one changing my words and reflecting them the way you want. I believe you know who is who in the game. Its as simple as that. I believe you have more information and are just posting to look town when indeed you're scum instead. I am having a hard time deciding because before you actually started playing this day phase, my vote would have been on BBMolla.

And look, you ask why I should care about BBmolla having a town read on him but you don't even make mention of that same fact and instead answer his question. Complete contradiction.

I don't need to wait anymore. BBmolla is town. You are the scum.

Vote: Benice

[Fresh]

Complete slander campaign against me this whole day phase. Unacceptable.

[Fresh]

And if you are town, and BB is the mafia, your vote is incredibly hasty and foolish.

Town players need to be more thoughtful in LYLO and weigh all the evidence objectively. You are not doing that.

What exactly aren't you getting? I'm not hasty or foolish because you are scum and BB is town. Its decided. I spent a few days being thoughtful. This isn't a two week deadline game. My decision is the right one.

Fact of the matter is that I am town. You show no fear of a scum hammer. It's amazing.

You also didn't answer the question, which was why do you think I am more likely to have decided to kill Grib than BBmolla? You need to have an explanation for this whether you think it is a meta argument or not, because if you cannot answer this then the argument is actually invalid and has absolutely no weight towards whether or not I am scum. Why do you not understand this very simple concept?

All I have done this entire day is ask you to explain your arguments, and you have not been able to.

I said you decided to kill Grib because it made decisions harder today. Its not Meta because anyone in your position who wrote your posts could have done the same. This is the same answer I just gave why are you reasking the question? Why are you so belittling in your questions? Asking if I understand a simple concept as to consider me inept...Oh wait its because you're scum that's why.

I've explained everything...you are slandering.

[Fresh]

You made my decision for me. I know its the right one. BB will not fast hammer. I trust he will read it over and make the right decision. You're not voting me back because you're the scum and you want BB to vote me so YOU can quickhammer.

I believe Fresh has solved the game!

Fixed for better accuracy.

[Fresh]

Summarize why I should think benice is scum over you for me, kthx

He says I wasn't scumhunting but I have been all game.
He says I just jumped on votes for mislynches but I had good reasons for all my votes and he would have mislynched Lalendra anyway had I not.
He ignored the fact I posted that I was moving house IRL to claim I was stalling an Aronis lynch. (yes I know you have no proof of that but its true)
He has slandered me this entire day phase and made claims that what I believe to be scumtells aren't scumtells. This is his opinion not the mafia Gods.
He calls me out on having a double standard when he has them himself.
He walks around questions when I've caught his mistakes and then tries to turn it around to deflect attention.
He claimed to be town which is a lie.

[Fresh]

And the fact that you didn't hammer the moment you posted changes my 98% to a 100%.

[Fresh]

The decision was difficult to make (NOT HEDGING) because of the body of work each of you produced during the game. But you owned up to yours and Benice's reactions and interactions today are that of scum and that sealed it for me.

[Fresh]

See you're just being rude! YOU think players should play a certain way. But then you pretty much say I lack common sense. And you talk about reevaluating reads when I clearly said at first I would have leaned towards voting BB today but

hey look i reevaluated

and voted you instead.

You're grasping at straws at this point.

[Fresh]

More reaction tests... they don't change who the scum is. Which is benice.

[Fresh]

Like how you've reversed everything I've said this day phase...

[Fresh]

No that would be you.

[Fresh]

Really? LYLO just ended in no lynch. Really? Really? Really.

[Fresh]

They both seemed pretty busy IRL so I lucked out here. I might have had a chance of swaying BBMolla but if they both had time for more attention this day phase I think they would have got me. I was digging myself a hole.

[Fresh]

Before I started playing on this site, I never had a deadline longer than 4 days. I was excited for this game because of how short it was.

[Fresh]

I hope offense is not taken to this comment and please know its not my intention. But the announcement, setup, and game rules all state how short the deadlines are. In the end though, IRL stuff always comes first and its just a game.

[Fresh]

Heh.

I probably would have ended up lynching benice. The huge townread on me felt too pushy.

This is what I was using to make that same push