NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #6500 (ISO) » Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:09 pm

Post by Pine »

In post 6498, Boonskiies wrote:Although, the fact that wolves haven't pounced on Slandaar shows that he is not mafia, I believe.

And this is bullshit, by the way. It only works if you and TSO are both Town, and wolves think they can quicklynch without giving themselves away
"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"

Act 3, Scene 1 of
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, by W. Shakespeare
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Post Post #6501 (ISO) » Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:36 pm

Post by Boonskiies »

okay.
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Post Post #6502 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:53 am

Post by Slandaar »

In post 6476, T S O wrote:I think I want Slandaar dead today, real talk.

Vote: Slandaar

Why?
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Post Post #6503 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:36 am

Post by Slandaar »

In post 6471, T S O wrote:Bulletproof Wolf

How balanced is that again?

In post 6447, Slandaar wrote:Scum 2
BP
/1 shot Exe/Goon

Why isn't it?
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Post Post #6504 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:41 am

Post by Slandaar »

In post 6497, Boonskiies wrote:I really would prefer a Pine lynch over a Slandaar lynch. I still keep forgetting Nero has possibility of being a wolf.

Pine lynch is the worst possible lynch (for town :wink: )
In post 6498, Boonskiies wrote:Although, the fact that wolves haven't pounced on Slandaar shows that he is not mafia, I believe.

How would the wolves know I am mafia?
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Post Post #6505 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:58 am

Post by Slandaar »

I need to work unfortunately but I do have a fantastic case I have put together over the last few days on Thor/Boon to write up this evening. Then we can all sit around and have a nice discussion and finally lynch.
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Post Post #6506 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:14 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 6496, Thor665 wrote:Okay, so now we're going from 'never voted each other' to 'never voted each other in a way I believe looked to have intent'.
He also forced a claim out of me.
And then had Scripten mock him for his logic in pushing it.
Your theory is we're all wolves for that one too, huh?
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Post Post #6507 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:16 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 6505, Slandaar wrote:I need to work unfortunately but I do have a fantastic case I have put together over the last few days on Thor/Boon to write up this evening. Then we can all sit around and have a nice discussion and finally lynch.

I look forward to that, we've been on hold for some time for you to offer thoughts and for Pine to find a computer.
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Post Post #6508 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:04 am

Post by Slandaar »

I have posted my thoughts on the things I find important.
In post 6387, Thor665 wrote:Boon's case logic.

Here is one of the things you want me to post my thoughts on.

Why do I need to post my thoughts on this Thor?

How useful will it be?
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Post Post #6509 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:09 am

Post by Thor665 »

I think that it would be useful to have you explain your thoughts on the way Boon is presenting his case, especially considering the way Nero is tunnelblitzing him over it and, to a lesser extent, how it is prevalent in Pine's case against Boon as well.

Why do you think it would be non-useful?
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Post Post #6510 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:10 am

Post by Slandaar »

What 'case' is Boon presenting?
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Post Post #6511 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:16 am

Post by T S O »

I don't know what I think anymore, but I owe it to town players to make an informed decision, something I can't say I'm doing now.

Unvote


I have fluctuated so many goddamn times on this game, but I'm going to read and read and finally make up my mind.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #6512 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:43 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 6510, Slandaar wrote:What 'case' is Boon presenting?

Basically any of them - though I had a lengthy discussion with him earlier today and if you look at his recent iso you'll see a swathe of self-quotes from him with his 'case' such as it exists.
You could also iso Nero for a conversation with me about how he's reacting to Boon's thought process.
Also, there is some vague sideways attack from Pine out there dinging on the way Boon weak attacked me and then 'followed me to some extent in a way I shouldn't describe as lockstep, but is apparently similar enough for Pine to call scummy - insert your own word choice here'.

Y'know, that stuff.
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Post Post #6513 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:59 am

Post by Pine »

In post 6512, Thor665 wrote:
In post 6510, Slandaar wrote:What 'case' is Boon presenting?

Basically any of them - though I had a lengthy discussion with him earlier today and if you look at his recent iso you'll see a swathe of self-quotes from him with his 'case' such as it exists.
You could also iso Nero for a conversation with me about how he's reacting to Boon's thought process.
Also, there is some vague sideways attack from Pine out there dinging on the way Boon weak attacked me and then 'followed me to some extent in a way I shouldn't describe as lockstep, but is apparently similar enough for Pine to call scummy - insert your own word choice here'.

Y'know, that stuff.

Lol

You went really far out of your way to rephrase that in a sarcastic manner, didn't you?

Summary of case (in a non-awkwardly sarcastic phrasing): Boon and Thor have been very clearly working together all day. They've been trying to ignore one another, except to vaguely list the other as a suspect. They don't, however, pursue those suspicions. Thor hasn't voted for Boon at all, and Boon has only voted for Thor for very brief moments, and then unvotes when he goes offline. They often attack the same person, agree on a lot of things, and appear focused on the same objectives. They are independently scummy, but taken together, are clearly a Wolf team
"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"

Act 3, Scene 1 of
Julius Caesar
, by W. Shakespeare
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Post Post #6514 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:59 am

Post by Pine »

Meant to post these together
In post 6507, Thor665 wrote:
In post 6505, Slandaar wrote:I need to work unfortunately but I do have a fantastic case I have put together over the last few days on Thor/Boon to write up this evening. Then we can all sit around and have a nice discussion and finally lynch.

I look forward to that, we've been on hold for some time for you to offer thoughts and for Pine to find a computer.

I've posted my case. I'm not reporting it
again
. My case is based on my interpretation of events, so I'm not spending an hour or so rephrasing what I already said with nice quotes and diagrams, just for you to say NOPE and dismiss it. No one else is whining about this except you, and quite frankly, I don't give a flying rat's ass what you think
"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"

Act 3, Scene 1 of
Julius Caesar
, by W. Shakespeare
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Post Post #6515 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:14 am

Post by Slandaar »

In post 6512, Thor665 wrote:Basically any of them - though I had a lengthy discussion with him earlier today and if you look at his recent iso you'll see a swathe of self-quotes from him with his 'case' such as it exists.

OK well talking generally my answer to your question is: bad.

What exactly is it you expected?
In post 6512, Thor665 wrote:
You could also iso Nero for a conversation with me about how he's reacting to Boon's thought process.

That is a different topic entirely.
In post 6512, Thor665 wrote:
Also, there is some vague sideways attack from Pine out there dinging on the way Boon weak attacked me and then 'followed me to some extent in a way I shouldn't describe as lockstep, but is apparently similar enough for Pine to call scummy - insert your own word choice here'.

Y'know, that stuff.

Again. I am unsure what this has to do with my thoughts on Boon's case logic and/or my thoughts on how he is presenting his case?
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Post Post #6516 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:24 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 6515, Slandaar wrote:OK well talking generally my answer to your question is: bad.

What exactly is it you expected?

I expected that answer or a lie.
What do you now make of the people pushing on him for playing in this manner?

In post 6515, Slandaar wrote:
In post 6512, Thor665 wrote:
You could also iso Nero for a conversation with me about how he's reacting to Boon's thought process.

That is a different topic entirely.

Sure - would you like to answer it now then?

In post 6515, Slandaar wrote:
In post 6512, Thor665 wrote:
Also, there is some vague sideways attack from Pine out there dinging on the way Boon weak attacked me and then 'followed me to some extent in a way I shouldn't describe as lockstep, but is apparently similar enough for Pine to call scummy - insert your own word choice here'.

Y'know, that stuff.

Again. I am unsure what this has to do with my thoughts on Boon's case logic and/or my thoughts on how he is presenting his case?

Clearly - so can you answer this utterly new conversation thread then?
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Post Post #6517 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:06 am

Post by Boonskiies »

If anything, this most likely shows that Pine/Slandaar are the same alignment, and Thor/Boon are most likely the same alignment. Difference is, Thor and I are both town.
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Post Post #6518 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:29 am

Post by Pine »

Agreement =! Collusion

This is an interesting look into the psychology of your position. Right now, it's very much an "us vs them" fight for you, isn't it? There's the urge to lump wholesale everyone into the 'enemy' category, which makes looking Town tough. In contrast, I am quite well aware that Slandaar may not be (probably isn't) my Townbuddy. Hell, if we weren't in this weird MYLO, I'd probably be pushing for him first, to eliminate one source of night kills
"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"

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Post Post #6519 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:30 am

Post by Pine »

In post 6517, Boonskiies wrote:If anything, this most likely shows that Pine/Slandaar are the same alignment, and Thor/Boon are most likely the same alignment. Difference is, Thor and I are both town.

And what happened to your Thor/Pine argument? Oh right. It disappeared in a puff of necessity when the chips are down. Thor goes from your second-strongest scumread to your strongest Townread in a blink

Ah, the pack mentality
"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"

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Post Post #6520 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:32 am

Post by Pine »

In post 6495, Boonskiies wrote:Hmm. Pine and Thor could be wolf buddies. Bus a buddy, vote a townie. CLASSIC.

Half a day is enough for a total flip. Sure
"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"

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Post Post #6521 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:41 am

Post by Slandaar »

In post 6516, Thor665 wrote:I expected that answer or a lie.
What do you now make of the people pushing on him for playing in this manner?

I don't believe in the case of Nero he is doing what you suggest; pushing on him for 'playing in this manner'

Pine eh. He is mafia and needs/thinks he needs the Boon lynch so whatever. Even if we look at this independent of all other thought and we just for arguments sake agree his push is scummy what team tells do you think I should be picking up on?
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Post Post #6522 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:41 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 6521, Slandaar wrote:I don't believe in the case of Nero he is doing what you suggest; pushing on him for 'playing in this manner'

What do you think his case is? Because my understanding is opposite your own.
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Post Post #6523 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:14 pm

Post by Slandaar »

In post 6284, Slandaar wrote:
In post 6186, Thor665 wrote:Or is it you're trying to sell me that Josh is Mafia?
Nah - I find that unlikely, his play works fine for Wolf and, in my opinion, moreso than Mafia.

You are not alone in this thought apparently. Perhaps you can help me understand this viewpoint?

In post 6372, Slandaar wrote:
Why did you decide not to respond to this;
In post 6284, Slandaar wrote:You are not alone in this thought apparently. Perhaps you can help me understand this viewpoint?

? Perhaps you could.

Response:
In post 6381, Thor665 wrote:Please consider this an intentional dodge and react accordingly.

It continued.
In post 6399, Slandaar wrote:
In post 6394, Boonskiies wrote:@slandaar - that's great, but Pine's not mafia.

Why?

In post 6409, Slandaar wrote:What does matter is you or Boon explaining to me why you think Pine isn't mafia/is a wolf. Yet both of you have failed to answer this. I assume you can explain why?

In post 6413, Thor665 wrote:My reasoning for thinking he's a Wolf is based on my setup spec - are you unaware of it?

In post 6418, Slandaar wrote:
In post 6186, Thor665 wrote:Nah - I find that unlikely, his play works fine for Wolf and, in my opinion, moreso than Mafia.

So, it's not just the Setup spec.

Clarify?

In post 6420, Thor665 wrote:Wagon analysis.

In post 6422, Slandaar wrote:Last time you showed me a VC it had 7 votes and you were like 'look no mafia gotta be Boon!'. Do you have any actual 'wagon analysis'?

In post 6424, Thor665 wrote:I still suspect Boon of being Mafia, so...?

In post 6427, Slandaar wrote:
He was 7th on a wagon where there are no other mafia present. It's incredibly weak reasoning.

Show me this wagon analysis.

In post 6453, Thor665 wrote:I have already - that's why you're calling it weak over and over, because you saw it and decided it was weak. Why do you want to see it again, have you forgotten why you are calling it weak or something?

So, below is Thor's entire wagon analysis which is the reasoning for Boon as mafia and Pine as wolf in 6186. That is all I could get from him on numerous attempts to do so. It may aswell be nothing, considering Thor talks of reactions and interactions lets call it puzzling that he doesn't have any for his own scumreads - his reasoning is non existant.
In post 6164, Thor665 wrote:
So you think this looks fine?
In post 5997, Boonskiies wrote:GRAY is unflipped who are not mafia.

[7]
PeregrineV
:
Egg
,
Thor665
,
Muffin
,
Scripten
,
davesaz
,
The Fonz
,
Boonskiies

[4]
Thor
:
goodmorning
,
Nero Cain
,
flubbernugget
,
PeregrineV

[3]
Aneninen
:
T S O
,
Pine
,
Shiro

[2]
T S O
:
AxleGreaser
,
Aneninen

[1]
Shiro
:
reinoe

[1]
Scripten
:
DGB

[3] Not Voting:
Slandaar
,
beastcharizard
,
Tiershift

=========================


That is the weakest reasoning I have ever seen.

Here is another 7 man wagon, where is the mafia?
In post 891, Aegor wrote::right: [7]PeregrineV: Egg, Thor665, Muffin, Aneninen, Scripten, davesaz, Tiershift

Is it Thor? eh no...

It's manipulative using one 7 man wagon instead of the final wagon which he posted later but isn't used in the wagon analysis. Why use the 7 man wagon where Boon is conveniently 7th vote and not the full 12 man or any of the other iterations of the PV wagon?
In post 2551, Aegor wrote:[12]PeregrineV: Egg, Thor665, Scripten, The Fonz, davesaz, TierShift, Shiro, T S O, Garmr, AxleGreaser, Muffin, Boonskiies

Leaves TSO, Garmr(Pine) and Boon. Seems much more sensible if you are going to be saying there should be mafia on the PV wagon to use this iteration instead of just choosing a random iteration to suit your needs.

His only other reasoning is the setup spec. I think the easiest way to demonstrate this isn't correct is just to challenge you all to produce a normal game where the setup was solvable as this is essentially what you are attempting with 'setup patterns'. They just don't exist they do not match the point of normal games. Thor should know this.

I would also suggest in a hypothetical situation where you have a solveable setup then this is only protown which leads to much less town power. Claimed roles here would hugely exceed balance of Odd Rolecop/Even RB/Goon vs Goon/X/X this means then that Thor and Boon are scum. Unless one is lying about their role then they are both wolves in said instance even then one is mafia one is wolf. There is no way town gets 6 PR and a solvable setup vs what are two limited PR's and a Goon. 5? no. The 4 flipped including a cop and tracker? (no but this is hypothetical anyways at this point).

I have more to come tomorrow. This was really just one point that Thor's reasoning is completely lacking when it comes to why Boon/Pine are wolf/mafia.
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Post Post #6524 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:04 pm

Post by Boonskiies »

This was really just one point that Thor's reasoning is completely lacking when it comes to why Boon/Pine are wolf/mafia.


Sliiiiiiiiiiip. He thinks I'm mafia, and Pine's a wolf. The actual wolf got caught up.
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