Post 7:
Panzerjager wrote:stop talking. Day has Not started.
Post 14:
Early game posts, included for completeness. I am somewhat interested in Panzer's "let's quick lynch roland" comment (IMO, joking about scummy actions in the early game is a minor scumtell).Panzerjager wrote:woohoo, bandwagoning peoples? Lets quick lynch roland.
Post 41:
I like how Panzer is trying to get Nekka to elaborate on his suspicions. I don't like the OMGUS random vote (again, IMO joking about anti-town actions is a minor scum tell, somewhat more so when the joke concernsPanzerjager wrote:Nekka-Lucifer wrote: I've got suspicions on 3 players; names I will not say for the moment unless they start acting abit more town.
Okay, I understand you are new, but you shouldn't do this. You shouldn't say your suspicious and then not name those who you are suspicious of. Be straight forward with your suspicions. Plus if you are townie, you generally shouldn't be witholding information(exceptions for power roles).
P.S please don't claim cop or doc at this moment.
P.S.S I would like to OMGUS Vote:Roland for voting me and quoting my pre-game joke.
a player as experienced as roland). I especially don't like his "P.S. please don't claim cop or doc at this moment" comment - to me, it looks like he's subtly fishing for power roles while including this comment to cover his tracks should he be called out on it.
Post 43:
This seems very pro-town to me.Panzerjager wrote:It's not an argument, it's a suggestion. And you don't tell someone to "correct" their scumtells. You tell them they are scummy and to explain why they have taken that course of action or that route of logic.
Post 59:
I like what Panzer is trying to do here.Panzerjager wrote:This is Nekka's second or third game.
Nekka did you get the reactions you wanted? Who did you get them from? Any new suspicions?
Post 61:
I don't really agree with Panzer's FoS, largely because the thread had been opened for a couple of days prior to the official start of the game. In my opinion, it is okay to ask for prods and FoS lurkers when the thread has been open for a few days (though IMO voting for lurkers should wait until after the lurkers have been prodded).Panzerjager wrote:Game has been open 2 days. FOS people lurker hunting
Post 66:
Here, Panzerjager attacks hand banana for his "i will not explain this any further." comments in post 62. He then goes on to attack me for accepting "that discussion is over", despite my own comments in 64:Panzerjager wrote:FoS:HandBanana No discussion in a mafia game is ever dead. We simply move on. One can always ask questions and re-discuss the conversation to further understand or prove a point. Your offense to this a very scummy, especially because you are an aggressive player. Generally aggressive players never throw anything out because they want as much ammo as possible.
FoS Tarhilindur for not pointing the above out. You should never accept, "that discussion is over" as an answer. I'm mulling over the idea that you and hand banana are distancing each other, because you seem to be appearing to attack rather then actually making an point.
Nekka, post something useful.
I asked hand banana for an explanation, and he gave one that I found satisfactory. I told hand banana that his blanket refusal to explain was not good for the town, but at the time I thought that hand banana was a misguided townie rather than scum (my gut read on hand banana until shortly before his claim was that he was an aggressive vanilla townie who looked scummy as a result of his scum-hunting tactics), and since I had no reason to ask him for additional explanation I did not press him on the subject.Tarhalindur wrote:But is that what the town wants? Is it in the town's best interest to move on? I find it difficult to accept that we should just ignore unusual and/or scummy behavior simply because one or two people want to move on.
Post 68:
No complaints here...Panzerjager wrote:No. Posting game related things is worth making a point. Not a funny thing the mod did that most people aleady caught.
Post 78:
This post (in particular the last paragraph) is extremely interesting to me. Not only is Panzer attacking the two people who *didn't* vote for a lurker on grounds of lurker hunting, but he's doing so in a way that is, in my opinion, very confusing - it took me several rereads to understand what he was saying, both due to the phrasing and the grammar. Minor scumtell IMO.Panzerjager wrote:If you can quote where I lurker hunted I will lynch myself.
I know nekka is trying out new strategy's he is a new player.
And there were people who were lurker hunting and their were people asking for prods. Exactly their was not new discussion. And it was Hand Banana and Tarhildur. Falcone said nekka far too many times for me to comprehend that statement fully.
Post 82:
Here Panzer says that he has a null read on Falcone (is he genuinely unable to get a read on Falcone, who's been fairly active, or is he avoiding picking sides?), claims that the only people who would lurker hunt 2 days into a game are scum trying to look like townies (setting aside my disagreement with this claim and the fact that the thread was open for ~2 days before the start of the game... WIFOM much?), and attacks Khelvaster for lurker hunting and contradicting himself (the latter is a valid point, but I don't like how he attacks Khelvaster only as an afterthought).Panzerjager wrote:Falcone never said they were right. He said they were fair. Falcone hasn't posted enough for me to get a good assessment on him.
Only reason to lurker hunt 2 days into a game is because you are scum trying to look like useful townies. Vote:Khelvaster because i forgot he was the one who lurker hunted and then he was a hypocrite.
Post 132:
This was the post that really set off my alarm bells on Panzerjager (hence my strong attack on him in 134).Panzerjager wrote:First off, if he is gonna play this, I'm gonna name people and they need to claim game and reveal power roles I want to be more certain then Hand Banana is vig. On top of that if he is gonna go around having power roles claim and such I'd rather have the vig lynched, because that is a terrible strategy. Might as well mas claim and see where that gets us. I'm 100% against this strategy regardless of the townness.
AlSleet, please tell me how I have been Inconsistent. I have been logical and aggressive the entire game. This is twice you have said something false about me. Why are you slandering me?
FoS:AlSleet
Once again, Panzerjager is joking/being sarcastic about scummy actions (in particular, a mass claim, which is all-but-unnecessary outside of LyLo situations), and confusing the town to boot. Also, I *still* think that his attack on AlSleet for using emotions is a case of "pot calling the kettle black" (and OMGUS to boot).
Post 136:
Panzerjager seems extremely angry with me for misintrepreting his post 132. Very interesting. Scum reacting poorly to pressure?Panzerjager wrote:HANDBANANA was the one who suggested he name people. I said mass claim because I figured you'd get the sarcasm because I was going on about how terrible the idea was. I think the claim is bullshit, and uncounterclaimed or not, it doesn't matter. Not every town has a vig especially in Normal mini's. Did you miss the part where I said "I am 100% AGAINST this strategy." I also said if he wants to go around and out power roles. I'd rather have him lynched because Cop/Doc are far more important then vig. Winning with out a vig is easy; winning without a cop or doc is far harder.
The one thing that I will not fault Panzerjager for here is his willingness to lynch hand banana, given the timing on hand banana's claim and the plan that hand banana was advocating. I agree with Panzerjager that an Azwolging vig is a serious detriment to the town, regardless of whether he's killing or just outing power roles (indeed, if hand banana had followed through with his plan he would, IMO, be little better than an SK).
Post 138:
OMGUS attack, anyone?Panzerjager wrote:EDWOP: FoS: Tarhilindur for actually reading my post and then saying that I am confirmed scum.
Post 139:
Fair point, here.Panzerjager wrote:HandBanana, that is if we believe the claim.
Post 142:
This falls into a grey area for me - it's fishing, but the situation is such that said fishing may actually be good for the town.Panzerjager wrote:Alright, fine. Out of curiosity, who would you name?
Post 145:
I see nowhere that this line of reasoning can go other than into WIFOM logic.Panzerjager wrote:How are we supposed to be certain that you are actually a vig and not a mafia goon that is role fishing?
In other words... worlds of WIFOM, anyone?
Post 150:
As previously noted in my Post 151:Panzerjager wrote:It felt like you were calling me confirmed scum.
Tarhalindur wrote:I don't like attacks based on feelings, especially OMGUS attacks...
Post 154:
I'm still not thrilled with Panzer's post 138, but this is an acceptable explanation for his post 138 to me - IMO, accidental misreading is not a scumtell, especially if you admit to it.Panzerjager wrote:Because I read what you wrote but it registered as you are confirmed scum.
Post 156:
Again, Panzer falls into the grey area of "fishing that can help the town".Panzerjager wrote:I'm still curious who he would want to claim.
Post 158:
Panzer seems *awfully* eager to claim that he's been consistent with his suspicions.Panzerjager wrote:I was telling people they were acting suspicious. Consistently telling them they were suspicious. I still don't see and inconsistency. Is there any particular reason why you have FoSed me twice because of things both of us have proved to be not true?
Post 163:
Worlds of WIFOM, anyone?Panzerjager wrote:Well why would a protown player claim -5 from lynch
Post 165:
I'm not sure ifPanzerjager wrote:Alright, so since you seem keen on naming people for a claim, who did you want to name?
Post 173:
Panzerjager wrote:You're correct he did and he is amending it. I'm still not a fan of when he claimed, his thinking, his FoS me for being critical of his thinking, or his claim. If he wanted to come out and claim why did he wait so long. He seemed he was unsure and decided to gambit thinking his claim would be accepted and no one would give him questions, or he really did want to come out deceided to try to play it safe got flak and then said screw it i'll claim halfway through making it awkward. Either way I am getting very bad vibes from it, and am wishing he had a name to drop rather then that crap about no finding anyone suspicious enough to say he was gonna kill them. His little idea about saying I'll shoot them if they don't claim realy rubs me the wrong way. For now, I'm gonna risk being wrong about his role and Vote:HandBanana
Post 175:
Is Panzer a power role who knows that hand banana is hosed if hb vigs panzer? Or is Panzer a scumbag who wants to look like he's not too concerned with being vigged?Panzerjager wrote:I dare you.
Post 176:
Panzerjager wrote:Ebwop: I thought of somethings after I dared you. Anyway this is an example of what others were saying were bad about your strategy. You outting pro-town players because you are not familiar enough with Mafiascum or Internet Mafia and don't possess amazing scum hunting ability. I will not be claiming until we get close to a non-handbanana lynch or am being pressurized.
Post 187:
Here's where Panzer starts pushing the "hand banana is SK" theory. I don't like how Panzerjager says that he thinks hand banana is SK without giving reasons. IMO, when attacking you should put all your reasons on the table unless you have a very good reason not to (in which case you should say something to that effect).Panzerjager wrote:Supported Nekka's view? I never supported anything. I have brought plenty to the table against you, none of which that you have addressed. If anything it is Nekka who is supporting my views. I think you are SK. And Khelvaster, two kills does not mean shit if he is an SK. And I know we shouldn't go SK hunting but when he falls into your lap it is hard to say oh let's have him kill some people first. No, kill him.
Mod:It has been far enough in the game where we need prods on AC, ~N9V~, and Roland. Replacements even. I know N9V is about ready to go on a trip and am taking over modding for him and probably will be replacing him in my game. Roland is famous for keeping the letter and going on hiatus so i wouldn't be surprised if he needed replacing as well.
Post 205:
Panzerjager wrote:Why are you unsure about me Falcone?
Post 216:
This post concerns me greatly. Panzerjager has shifted from "I think hand banana is SK" to "I'm the one attacking hand banana, the SK". That's a major change in tone for a mere half a day and two posts, especially coming after hand banana had agreed to make himself, in effect, a second lynch (which would effectively neutralize him if he was, in fact, SK).Panzerjager wrote:Khelvaster pay attention. I'm the one attacking Banana, the SK.
Mod: We nee prods and vote counts.
Please be more active mod.
Post 220:
As previously noted: IMO, when attacking you should put all your reasons on the table unless you have a very good reason not to (in which case you should say something to that effect).Panzerjager wrote:Unvote, Vote:Khelvaster
I have a stack of reasons but between not paying attention and being a hypocrite I can stick my vote on him comfortably without having to put all my reasons out there yet.
Post 224:
Once again, Panzer comes out strongly in favor of his "hand banana is SK". The problem here is that Panzer is advocating lynching hand banana *after* hand banana has all-but-agreed to act as a virtual second lynch (which makes him a valuable asset if hand banana is town and neutralizes hand banana for the time being if he's scum). This conclusion holds even though hand banana still needed - needs? - to follow the wishes of the whole town instead of a portion of it; even if hand banana is only accepting the judgement of a portion of the town, that still neutralizes him if he's scum. I fail to see how lynching an uncounterclaimed vig who has all-but-agreed to a course of action that neutralizes him if he's scum is a good thing.Panzerjager wrote:He is SK. Look at the way he is playing. He isn't listening to the town but claimed vig and that he was all for the town. Now he is selfish and on a powertrip, which is lynchable when it's a vig cause he becomes a protown Serial Killer. What was the motive behind claiming vig so quick? He took a shot and is uncounterclaimed which totally cleared him in several people eyes, regardless of what he has said. On top of this he wants to kill me who has been probably the most active at trying to catch scum, among other things. If he is a vig, he is a detriment and should be dealt with. If he is an SK, he is again a detriment and should be dealt with.
Post 227:
Panzerjager wrote:wait you can't say majority of the town then exclude a third of the town.
Post 232:
These are valid points.Panzerjager wrote:Okay so you, Jenter, 3 people that arn't playing, elias, Khelvaster, and Alsleet?
That list is hardly liable influence, with the exception of AlSleet. You left out all the influential and pro-town players. For real, what pro-town player excludes people from the list not knowing there alignment? On top of that you have quite possibly the most scummy player on you lister of pro town players and you also have a guy you said didn't read and should pay more attention. Not to mention 3 people who haven't posted anything really. What value do you see in excluding the 4 most active players(I'm assuming that I am excluded).
Post 243:
Panzerjager's choice of words regarding ac1983fan is interesting. A Freudian slip?Panzerjager wrote:welcome to the show AC. About time buddy.
He doesn't pay attention. He hunts lurkers then contradicts himself. He votes someone who is the exact oppisite of what he said. He follows what everybody else says. Doesn't come up with anything original and tries to jump wagons, albeit unsuccessful. Khelvaster has done anything at all protown, and HB never mentioned him. He has been too side tracked wanting to kill me he hasn't mentioned it. Why is this? Maybe because I have him fingered?
Also, come to think of it, I'm interested as to why Panzer has been attacking hand banana for the last few posts before this despite having his vote on Khelvaster since his post 220. More to the point - Panzerjager, if you think hand banana is SK, then why aren't you still attacking him as opposed to Khelvaster, who you're attacking on the much more vague grounds that Khelvaster "[hasn't] done anything at all protown"? That reeks of opportunistic scum to me...
Post 251:
You seem awfully eager to be cleared, Panzerjager.Panzerjager wrote:Wait, If he is scum wouldn't that clear me too? I was the second on the wagon and the one who drew attention to him with the lurker hunting comment.
Post 257:
Asking for a vote count with no other reasoning is scummy.Panzerjager wrote:Where the hell are the vote counts in this friggin game? Mod wake up.
Post 258:
On the one hand, Panzer's right that "I have a power role" isn't a good claim - in fact, a "power role" claim gives the impression that the claimer is trying to use his or her claim to clear him- or herself (instead of, you know, actual defense...), which is scummy.Panzerjager wrote:EBWOP: I don't like that claim. If you don't full claim you'll probably die today. I'm not a fan of the whole "I have a power role" If you claim power role you are still going to die. Only reason to say that is your a vanilla that is pulling a stupid gambit or a scum that is pulling a slightly less stupid gambit.
On the other hand, Panzer's "Only reason to say that..." comment can't lead to good things. Worlds of WIFOM, anyone?
Post 260:
Panzerjager wrote:I'll go into why breadcrumbing is good play at a later date but for now my above argument is sufficient.
Post 261:
Panzerjager wrote:*isn't good play rather. Breadcrumbing is bad play.
Post 265:
(260, 261, and 265 grouped together due to similarities.)Panzerjager wrote:No, Breadcrumbing is always bad, unless it's masons. The only time I support it is for masons. If you breadcrumb as almost any other power role, scum can pick up on it and you get gunned.
I don't really agree with Panzer's argument here. IMO, breadcrumbing isn't so much bad as risky - if you get caught, you're going to get burned, but if you can pull it off breadcrumbing can be a huge asset in the late game.
This doesn't excuse Khelvaster's actions - IMO, he's handled his breadcrumbing terribly, regardless of his true alignment (in particular, he failed to defend his play prior to revealing his breadcrumbing, and he decided to reveal his breadcrumbing prior to his full claim) - but it's worth keeping in mind.
Post 265:
This post is extremely confusing, but from what I'm seeing, it looks like Panzerjager is advocating lynching Khelvaster regardless of what he actually claims - red flag material if I ever saw it.Panzerjager wrote:Why not? He is all ready dead, and whay if he is lying, which I get the strong impression of. More so then HB's claim. A lot more so. If he claims fully he could be full of shit and if he doesn't then he is already going to die. Only reason to to reveal is if he is A Vanilla gambiting or B. Scum gambiting.
Post 269:
Why is Panzer so willing to agree with the player he thinks is SK?Panzerjager wrote:*High Five* to HandBanaa
And I'm getting a Doc vibe from the first post and a Cop vibe from the second. And I'm with HB, your sounding more and more full of shit.
Post 272:
So in other words, "I still think you're probably scum, but I don't think you're as scummy as Khelvaster, so you can wait until tomorrow?".Panzerjager wrote:I'm still not sure about his claim. I'm still more willing to accept that he is the SK, not the vig. He has mad a few town posts. Last antitown thing that jumped out at me was that doesn't want to vote for someone he believes is scummy because other people that he feels are scummy are voting for him. Because he could and probably is wrong about some that only he thinks are not protown. The town as a collective is more likely to not be wrong as a collective. I also didn't like his excluding of "scummy people" in his NK candidate. I still think his plan is bad and shouldn't be implemented.
I'm willing to give HB a chance due to Khelvaster being scum.
Okay, that explanation makes sense.
Post 276:
For the most part, I agree with Panzer's arguments here about why Khelvaster's power role breadcrumb is scummy. What I don't like is how Panzer implies that *only* a scumbag would breadcrumb a power role - that's Worlds of WIFOM, folks.Panzerjager wrote:HandBanana, I'm sure because of how many games I have played and my experiance with these situations. When people act like this I become pretty sure they are scum because of the percentage of time a person that does this is scum and the motivation behind the action. What reason does he have to claim I'm a power role but I bread crumbed. Guess my role. The only reason is either we nod like stupid townies and say ok and no one counterclaims because there is nothing to counterclaim. Or we pick up on the so called breadcrumbing figure out his role, someone counterclaims and we lynch khelv and have 2 outted powerroles. On top of those two options even if he claimed full either you or him are gonna die because there is no possible fucking way we have 2 docs. So why play all the games? He is probably gonna get lynched for claiming terribly(btw the timing was bad as well) or NKed for being a pwer role. I seriously doubt he is a power role, and fake claiming a power role is scummy.
Post 283:
Meh.Panzerjager wrote:Mnowax, You missed a vote. Khelvaster is voting me.
Mod edit: I have updated it in the vote count sorry.
Post 285:
Meh.Panzerjager wrote:Our Mod's activityy has been less then that, and as long as that one time a week is good, I don't see the problem with that. But i would expect content if your only posting once a week.
Post 287:
That looks like a fence to me... I wonder how Panzer's so comfortable sitting on it.Panzerjager wrote:I confirm that I didn't catch any thing that would shoot to one specific role.
Post 289:
Fishing, anyone?Panzerjager wrote:IS he subclaiming vig?
I'm going to stop the PBPA here for a second, and sum up the case for Panzerjager up until this point.
After running the full PBPA on Panzerjager, I think that the case against him is somewhat weaker than I thought it would be when I started the PBPA. A good deal of Panzerjager's posting has been pro-town, especially towards the beginning of the game.
Best points against Panzerjager:
- He pushes for a hand banana lynch because he thinks that hand banana is SK, even though hand banana agreed to a course of action that, while flawed, would in fact (temporarily) neutralize hand banana should he be scum.
- His switch from attacking hand banana to attacking Khelvaster seems opportunistic, especially since he continued to attack hand banana for several posts *after* he switched his vote from hand banana to Khelvaster.
- Panzer often uses OMGUS attacks and Worlds of WIFOM logic (i.e, logic that's fine on the surface but quickly devolves into WIFOM if you look at it closely enough) in his arguments.
- Panzer's jokes about scummy actions (speedlynching one of the most experienced players in the game and mass claiming without a good reason) are in and of themselves scummy, IMO.
Best points for Panzerjager being town:
- Panzerjager has consistently called players out for anti-town behavior (hand banana's reluctance to explain, hand banana's horrible plan for deciding who to vig, and Khelvaster's decision to make us hunt for breadcrumbs rather than just come out and fullclaim).
- Panzer has been one of the players most responsible for sparking discussion in this game. (In general, I think that people who spark discussion are more likely to be town.)
Now, the really interesting stuff:
Panzerjager wrote:Bullshit, Khelv. I'm cop. I am on the Falcone, he is full of shit and put it there cause he was in trouble bandwagon.
So, Khelvaster has claimed cop, and Panzer has counterclaimed.Panzerjager wrote:Yes I did. I responded to HB's claim to vigging me with an "I Dare you" knowing he would be fucked in the butt if he shot me. I have also actually been trying to hunt scum, unlike you who has done nothing but hope on bandwagons and play like the scum you are. Crumbing does not clear you especially when you claim 160 post or so into the game. Anyone can spell cop in a d post and then claim "I'm the really cop because I crumbed." The fact that you have experienced someone who crumbed as the real cop gives me more of a feel you crumbed because you were in trouble then if you weren't. You are scum.
From what I've seen, I think we can be reasonably sure, barring extreme stupidity, that one of Khelvaster and Panzer is scum (specifically, mafia), and the other is the real cop. Given this, at some point we will probably need to trade our cop for a dead scum (if we lynch the scumbag, then the mafia will probably kill the real cop soon thereafter; if we lynch the real cop, then either we have hand banana kill the scumbag the following night or we lynch the scumbag the next day).
The one good argument I can think of for leaving Khelvaster/Panzerjager alive for a night or two is that it lets the real cop get in an investigation or two before he dies (barring a RBer).
So, the question for me is: if we lynch one of Khelvaster and Panzerjager today, which one should we choose?
Points against Panzerjager:
- He pushes for a hand banana lynch because he thinks that hand banana is SK, even though hand banana agreed to a course of action that, while flawed, would in fact (temporarily) neutralize hand banana should he be scum.
- His switch from attacking hand banana to attacking Khelvaster seems opportunistic, especially since he continued to attack hand banana for several posts *after* he switched his vote from hand banana to Khelvaster.
- Panzer often uses OMGUS attacks and Worlds of WIFOM logic (i.e, logic that's fine on the surface but quickly devolves into WIFOM if you look at it closely enough) in his arguments.
- Panzer's jokes about scummy actions (speedlynching one of the most experienced players in the game and mass claiming without a good reason) are in and of themselves scummy, IMO.\
Points against Khelvaster:
- Khelvaster's method of claiming was, simply put, horrible. Instead of coming clean and saying that he was the cop (with breadcrumb backup), he sent the town on a breadcrumb hunt that distracted us for at least a page. This makes his claim considerably less believable (and, therefore, makes Panzer's counterclaim more believable).
- More importantly, Khelvaster's post 167 wasn't the first breadcrumb I thought I saw from him. Some of you may remember the following comment from my PBPA on Khelvaster:
I posted this because I thought that Khelvaster might be crumbing a masonry with Nekka-Lucifer (both due to the posts I noted above and due to some Nekka-Lucifer posts that I will not point out for the time being). This is why I asked Nekka-Lucifer what his opinion was regarding Khelvaster's power role claim. It also makes me a little more suspicious of Khelvaster's cop claim, especially now that he's been counterclaimed.Tarhalindur wrote:This post caught my eye when I looked at it in the context of Khelvaster's post 42 and his later posts 91 and 126. I think I may know what's going on here, but I do not want to elaborate on this unless Khelvaster is forced to claim at some point in the future. Suffice it to say that I saw something here that should make it easier for me to decide if Khelvaster is telling the truth if/when he does claim.
- Khelvaster has contradicted himself on at least one occasion (post 63) - more if you (like me) interpret Khelvaster's post 152 as a subtle attack on hand banana, the claimed vig. Regardless, Khelvaster's tone in post 152 is a far cry from his "wanting to lynch a claimed vig is absolutely unacceptable" tone in posts 181, 182, and 211.
At the moment, I'm leaning towards Khelvaster being scum and Panzer being the real cop, but I'm not ready to act on that just yet.
Note: I'm a bit tired at the moment (thanks to offline issues). If something in this PBPA doesn't make sense, that's probably why.
