NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #5350 (ISO) » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:26 pm

Post by Izariael »

I don't see what was so bogus about Muffin's statement. His whole thing was that Thor was artificially prolonging a debate when the simple solution would have shut down the whole accusation.

Regardless, Muffin aside, what do you think of goodmorning, who was a town tracker, repeatedly taking a tunnel stance that Thor is scum to the extent that she did? You seem quick to brush that aside in favour of your own tunnel.
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Post Post #5351 (ISO) » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:51 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 5350, Izariael wrote:Thor was artificially prolonging a debate when the simple
solution
explanation would have shut down the whole accusation.

EBWOP.
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Post Post #5352 (ISO) » Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:31 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 5350, Izariael wrote:I don't see what was so bogus about Muffin's statement. His whole thing was that Thor was artificially prolonging a debate when the simple solution would have shut down the whole accusation.

Regardless, Muffin aside, what do you think of goodmorning, who was a town tracker, repeatedly taking a tunnel stance that Thor is scum to the extent that she did? You seem quick to brush that aside in favour of your own tunnel.


Well no, I did not brush it aside, but as Flubber and you pointed it out i thought I would let you put bones on it.

GM was driving hard on Thor D1 as well and I am sure there was no check then.
So what is the extra information you think GM will have had that made the D2 tunnel, more fact based than feels.
(aka do more than wave hands and hint, state your case.)

Note i am not arguing a case, I am asking why I don't yet know what yours is.
Town not only has to lynch scum today, but in my estimate in order even have a chance of winning town must lynch scum every day.. and get lucky...

Just based on play, There are plenty of people way scummier any 'case' posted about thor
Spoiler: Nero yesterday
was white knighting so hard he forgot what beasts role even does. Even though Nero had asked the mod about it....
That was bizarre, and for me the jury is still out on what that even means... about nero or his alignment.
In post 5318, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 5305, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 5297, AxleGreaser wrote:
If the game is MB then a town cop is threat to both factions
which
wastes the shot they could be eliminating the other faction with by shooting the cop
?


(1)
bolded #1 if this is MB and Beast is a cop he is only a threat to the mafia faction. How is he a threat to the WWs?
(2)
bolded @2 you are arguing that this is MB and that Beast could be scum. You are also arguing that scum would shoot at each other. You are now arguing that a shot on him would be a waste. This is very much a disconnect.

In post 5297, AxleGreaser wrote:So the chnaces if the game is SB are pretty high of getting shot eventually. My point was however, it is not a suicide play by beast.

(3)
I think the chances of scum shooting a threat in mb are just the same as in singleball. I think that in MB a scum team would NOT wabt to kill all of the other team 'cause like...then we'd be focused on just that team.


(1)
because I read his posts... did you?
The most recent way he claims his role works is like this.
In post 5215, beastcharizard wrote:He said I got guilties on anti-town entities. Mafia or WW or SK or anything like that was not specified. I do know I get a false guilty on Millers though. Doubt that helps.

and he implicitly agreed with this incorrect poiint
In post 5306, beastcharizard wrote:Nero the Hero is at it again.

WHich tells me Beast is unsure how his role works .... again. Or doesnt care just so long as Nero is championing his cause with BS or not.

[...]
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Post Post #5353 (ISO) » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:05 pm

Post by Boonskiies »

In post 5341, Nero Cain wrote:So in my hood last night both me and TSO agreed that Axxle needs death. I am not sure if this means TSO is scum or if this is a sign of the apocalypse but I'm slightly leaning the later.

Though it was a lil' odd that he was arguing that me being in the hood made me scum despite arguing the former yesterday but *shrugz*

vote:Axxle



We kind of talked about the opposite in my neighborhood. I don't think Axxle is scum at all.

VOTE: Nero

I feel there is scum in that neighborhood, and the fact that Nero was so eager to put Axxle under when TSO agreed makes me feel he's the one that is scum in that neighborhood. This, and everything I said yesterDay.
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Post Post #5354 (ISO) » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:07 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 5350, Izariael wrote:Regardless, Muffin aside,


That I can go with especially from you, as I asked Flub
who mentioned the flip as if the conclusion from it was self evident...

So I am still interested in why flub mentioned that flip.
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Post Post #5355 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:47 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 5342, Izariael wrote:There's no way gm was tunneling that hard unless something was up with him. No way in hell.

GM was tunneling on me Day 1.
I claimed a jail on GM Day 2.

So what info do you think GM had exactly?

I'm also sorta v/la till Saturday, so this post functionally works as a prod dodge - but I'll manage some proactive thoughts then.

Also;

I am confirmed not Werewolf at this stage - discuss.
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Post Post #5356 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:17 am

Post by Slandaar »

Wrong team.
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Post Post #5357 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:31 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

and/or wrong adjective
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Post Post #5358 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:52 am

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 5345, AxleGreaser wrote:@Nero want to try voting for someone who is even in the game? (Axxle )
and then doing it because you think they are scum for reasons instead of the apocalypse?

or you could just wipe my vote off like the scumbag you are.

So ok, Ren was fake claiming town cop. What he was saying was that he detected mafia only. You believed this claim. You also then claim that cop is a threat to both factions. You can't believe Rens claim AND believe Beasts.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #5359 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:55 am

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 5353, Boonskiies wrote:We kind of talked about the opposite in my neighborhood. I don't think Axxle is scum at all.

Ok. Why don'y you guys think he's scum? Who said what?

You do know the scum have already flipped in my hood right?
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #5360 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:17 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 5358, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 5345, AxleGreaser wrote:@Nero want to try voting for someone who is even in the game? (Axxle )
and then doing it because you think they are scum for reasons instead of the apocalypse?

or you could just wipe my vote off like the scumbag you are.

So ok, Ren was fake claiming town cop. What he was saying was that he detected mafia only. You believed this claim. You also then claim that cop is a threat to both factions. You can't believe Rens claim AND believe Beasts.


No id just like you to provide anything other than fanciful "ooh we talked about BS in the thread", then you(nero) keep a options open each way
In post 5341, Nero Cain wrote:I am not sure if this means
TSO is scum

then dont actually call me scum
In post 5341, Nero Cain wrote:or if this is a sign of the apocalypse but I'm slightly leaning the later.


but then you voted me...

Tell why shouldn't I wipe that off... as rubbish... as vote so bad ... as a scum claim by you?
so no I was basically polite and nit picked you getting the name wrong.

and now that you have reasons they are unbelievably awful.
In post 5358, Nero Cain wrote:So ok, Ren was fake claiming town cop. What he was saying was that he detected mafia only.
(11)
You believed this claim.
(12)
You also then claim that cop is a threat to both factions.
(13)
You can't believe Rens claim AND believe Beasts.

unequivocal BS crosssed out by me.

(11)
Please show where i believed his claim. (note you will find me consider the what ifs on it being true.)

(13)
Err. yes I agree with you, except I would be more exact and say you cant simultaneously believe both claims and the check. I even said so?
In post 4856, AxleGreaser wrote:at least 1 is scum or both bad.

at least that once. Do you have anything even vaguely resembling a scum read on me in that post?

(12)
It is true i (expect i did) claim that
if
the cop role worked as beast (later) claimed it did and got guilties on both then it is a threat to both. I will also have claimed that getting guilties only on mafia makes a claimed role only athreat to one faction.

YOU

however claimed not to even know how Beast claimed his role works... while defending Beast.
Spoiler: context
In post 5318, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 5305, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 5297, AxleGreaser wrote:
If the game is MB then a town cop is threat to both factions
which
wastes the shot they could be eliminating the other faction with by shooting the cop
?


(1)
bolded #1
if this is MB and Beast is a cop he is only a threat to the mafia faction. How is he a threat to the WWs?

(2)
bolded @2 you are arguing that this is MB and that Beast could be scum. You are also arguing that scum would shoot at each other. You are now arguing that a shot on him would be a waste. This is very much a disconnect.

In post 5297, AxleGreaser wrote:So the chnaces if the game is SB are pretty high of getting shot eventually. My point was however, it is not a suicide play by beast.

(3)
I think the chances of scum shooting a threat in mb are just the same as in singleball. I think that in MB a scum team would NOT wabt to kill all of the other team 'cause like...then we'd be focused on just that team.


(1)
because I read his posts... did you?

The most recent way he claims his role works is like this.
In post 5215, beastcharizard wrote:He said I got guilties on anti-town entities. Mafia or WW or SK or anything like that was not specified. I do know I get a false guilty on Millers though. Doubt that helps.


You said
In post 5305, Nero Cain wrote:bolded #1 if this is MB and Beast is a cop he is only a threat to the mafia faction. How is he a threat to the WWs?

In post 5318, AxleGreaser wrote:
(1)
because I read his posts... did you?

The most recent way he claims his role works is like this.
In post 5215, beastcharizard wrote:He said I got guilties on anti-town entities. Mafia or WW or SK or anything like that was not specified. I do know I get a false guilty on Millers though. Doubt that helps.


@nero
<<<<<<<<<<<
So please explain how you did not even know how his role worked if you were in any sense even vaguely trying to figure the game out?
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Post Post #5361 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:42 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

Spoiler: mumble mumble
In post 5356, Slandaar wrote:Wrong team.

quoting that post seems out of context, it is however why I chose to ask this question. (dont try to think why, I expect it wont make sense, but I may want to explain later. if excruciatingly detailed transparency on how I got where i did becomes an issue.)


Anyway (this is going to get complex. This strategy hopefully keeps the thread simpler less filled with gak.)(I am not even certain my reasoning is right, it is complex)


You have your vote on boons.

I have concept I call
perspective
A post (diff game) that is all about it
(basically you need to think about precisely what the other person knew or might have know at the time, ... its obvious but people hardly ever really do it... really... they dont.)
(please read that post about perspective, as this post is perspective on roids)


@Slanndar
Anyway please do the following in your head, this is not question. The question is at the end.

You claim Boon is scum. Fine take that
perspective
and REALLY think about it. (use ALL the knowledge you currently have about what theoretical scum boon will have known on early D1) hint: use setup balance.

Now have a long hard think about, Boons PR claim, and subsequent BP claim.

Consider what the other scum team probably knows (or even more precisely guess what scum boon would think the other team knows)
(I told you this is perspective on roids, consider what scum!boon on D1 thought the other scum team knew....)

Anyway, what would D1 Boons estimate, be on his plan to claim a PR, possibly draw a scum shot, then claim 2 shot BP....

Think about what everybody (relevant) will know.

Nope I said really think about all that stuff please go back and do so... (possibly for a few hours...)

Now answer one question,

Do you still claim Boon is the best lynch for the day?
No reasons just yay or nay.

I get no way in hell.

Then we can talk. (I will be really grumpy if you didnt think about it like I asked first)
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Post Post #5362 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:47 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 5359, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 5353, Boonskiies wrote:We kind of talked about the opposite in my neighborhood. I don't think Axxle is scum at all.

Ok. Why don'y you guys think he's scum? Who said what?

You do know the scum have already flipped in my hood right?


no, no, no, first you explain why you think I am scum and not just the apocalypse.

So far you have accused me of being the apocalypse, and of being wrong
well actually you did not even explicitly do that.

You made flat out false assertions about what I believed, then claimed i cant believe both "a AND b" when in fact i had never said I did....
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Post Post #5363 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:34 pm

Post by Flubbernugget »

In post 5355, Thor665 wrote:
In post 5342, Izariael wrote:There's no way gm was tunneling that hard unless something was up with him. No way in hell.

GM was tunneling on me Day 1.
I claimed a jail on GM Day 2.

So what info do you think GM had exactly?

I'm also sorta v/la till Saturday, so this post functionally works as a prod dodge - but I'll manage some proactive thoughts then.

Also;

I am confirmed not Werewolf at this stage - discuss.

In post 5354, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 5350, Izariael wrote:Regardless, Muffin aside,


That I can go with especially from you, as I asked Flub
who mentioned the flip as if the conclusion from it was self evident...

So I am still interested in why flub mentioned that flip.



Muffin had a strong case. His flip shows it was genuine.

GM had a weak case but flipped a pr. In other words, she crumbed a result on Thor.
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Post Post #5364 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:36 pm

Post by Flubbernugget »

In post 5355, Thor665 wrote:

Also;

I am confirmed not Werewolf at this stage - discuss.


So you're mafia with axel. Cool.
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Post Post #5365 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:47 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 5363, Flubbernugget wrote:
In post 5355, Thor665 wrote:
In post 5342, Izariael wrote:There's no way gm was tunneling that hard unless something was up with him. No way in hell.

GM was tunneling on me Day 1.
I claimed a jail on GM Day 2.

So what info do you think GM had exactly?

I'm also sorta v/la till Saturday, so this post functionally works as a prod dodge - but I'll manage some proactive thoughts then.

Also;

I am confirmed not Werewolf at this stage - discuss.

In post 5354, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 5350, Izariael wrote:Regardless, Muffin aside,


That I can go with especially from you, as I asked Flub
who mentioned the flip as if the conclusion from it was self evident...

So I am still interested in why flub mentioned that flip.



Muffin had a strong case. His flip shows it was genuine.

GM had a weak case but flipped a pr. In other words, she crumbed a result on Thor.


I know 100% my read of the
case
argument was genuine, I didn't vote Thor at the time based on the
case
argument.
Knowing now that Muffin was town, changes my estimate of muffins skill level, not my read on what happened.
(note at the time i read muffin as probably town and wrong headed. (note 2:wrong headed in criticising thor for wrong things.))

If you (personally of your own skills) want to claim the case is strong then I d like to discuss it with you as I never saw it as strong.
Indeed I mainly saw an argument, then dummy spits, then votes.


I saw Thor chasing Shiro for BS reasons, I saw Muffin then fight the BS reasons with BS, rather than state and actual defense of Shiro, or the actual fault with the Thor BS.
Out of that I got to see whether or not shiro was rattled by the strong winds of Thor pushing one way and Muffin the other... (both with BS... at least one of them town...) (which is AFAIK proof by example that BS doesnt always == scum! so huh?)

If you tell me both were seriously serious that their points were scum or town indicative.. I am going to argue they played badly and should feel bad.
(@thor dear thor please dont bother, if I ever come for you as scum we can dance then without prejudice.)
But hey if there was an actual case by muffin on thor, somewhere in all that argue about how to count dumb non alignment indicative BS please show me.
Very specifically show me Muffin making the case.

Do note that is not me defending Thor... I can see the potential for things happening today and me hammering Thor.. I dont like what youre saying...
(not saying I will, but so far your posts dont inspire confidence.)
I (and all the townies) need to be trying work out everybodies alignment not just the lynch target, lynching scum today is no where near good enough for town to win from here.


GM had weak arse case on Thor BEFORE GM could possibly have had a check....
please explain more explicitly what you say GM did and when.

(please note I am ok with you presenting a range of options of what GM did, where most of them are Thor is scum. I am not asking you to read GMs mind just be explicit.)
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Post Post #5366 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:15 pm

Post by Flubbernugget »

You're saying muffin's case was shit and that's about all I can see you saying about it. So what exactly do you want me to refute?

Calling out a gut read from a player as meticulous as Thor isn't making a shit case, and calling him out on the same word play bullshit he stalled D1 with isn't shit either.

GM got more aggressive about thor later in the game.

If GM had backed off her read on thor later in the game I would assume she got a result that cleared Thor.
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Post Post #5367 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:17 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 5366, Flubbernugget wrote:You're saying muffin's case was shit and that's about all I can see you saying about it. So what exactly do you want me to refute?

Well you claimed
In post 5363, Flubbernugget wrote:Muffin had a strong case.


I pointed out for me whetehr he flipped town or not was not the issue, I never liked his case.
So you could you know explain why you think its strong instead of just appeal to authority of flipped towny. That would amke me feel comfortable you were standing behind the case as a towny...

This for instance seems awful?
In post 5364, Flubbernugget wrote:
In post 5355, Thor665 wrote:
Also;
I am confirmed not Werewolf at this stage - discuss.


So you're mafia with axel. Cool.

So if he is being added to me why were you voting him?


Calling out a gut read from a player as meticulous as Thor isn't making a shit case, and calling him out on the same word play bullshit he stalled D1 with isn't shit either.

What was bullshit, was making your own wordplay bullshit, wanting to count the references some other way or anyway at all.

As I pointed out,
(becuase/when I got sick of the BS)
was that in order to evaluate Shiro you had to examined intent (OMG mafia 101 and neither flipped town!muffin nor Thor were talking about intent)
Why did Shiro make the mentions, was the only alignment relevant thing, not how many what quality whether pronoun or not, that was all crap, and flipped town!Muffin was posting about it tooo.


GM got more aggressive about thor later in the game.

If GM had backed off her read on thor later in the game I would assume she got a result that cleared Thor.


Ok so please explain what plausible result you are supposing Gm got that actually convicted Thor...
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Post Post #5368 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:54 pm

Post by Shiro »

@Nero U see all this ^
This is why Axl is town.

Also since u wondered kinda everyone in the hood agreed to it so no specific person saying it.

@Axl Perhaps a positive resault at night 2
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Post Post #5369 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:12 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 5368, Shiro wrote:@Nero U see all this ^
This is why Axl is town.

Also since u wondered kinda everyone in the hood agreed to it so no specific person saying it.

@Axl Perhaps a positive resault at night 2


I can make guesses... what GM may have done when...

but its the people who just drop a flipped PR GM on the table appeal to authority and say sheep the dead guy....
and never explain why or how or the details, those people that say we should sheep GM

to put up (and explain what they claim Gm may reasonably have got) or shut up.
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Post Post #5370 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:59 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 5366, Flubbernugget wrote:GM got more aggressive about thor later in the game.

If GM had backed off her read on thor later in the game I would assume she got a result that cleared Thor.


so explain what results a GM tracker could have got, and when, and how they tie in with what you observed.

I am particularly interested in this theory you have that a GM tracker could ever clear(confirm) someone as town? (in this game)

As near as i can you have not actually thought this through...
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Post Post #5371 (ISO) » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:02 am

Post by Slandaar »

The only thing that does suggest she had a result is she was voting him yesterday over everyone else (Beast/Reinoe) as if to make a point. It's not enough though if we consider how she was tunnelling him the whole game anyway so it's not unreasonable to assume it was just a continuation of this.

Axle in terms of Boon I think you are giving him too much credit for thinking through his actions.

I don't really know what you mean by what the other team knows... if Boon claims PR and then BP what do they know? The BP claim is legit?

There is no way for them to decipher if that is a town, SK or scum claim. IF they had no PR's then yes, there is something in that, but evidently this isn't the case. Take for example the mafia with their Even night RB and compare to 1shot BP? seems fine to me but at the same time it could be a town PR there is no way to know. Obviously its also possible they have both of those PR's and wolves have 2 PR's and again there wouldn't be a way to know if the claim was Town/Scum/SK.
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Post Post #5372 (ISO) » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:20 am

Post by Izariael »

My god, this game is making me want to garotte myself.

Gm spoke of Thor not only in thread but also in neighborhood. I'm quite certain that if there's one result she got, it was on Thor and it was incriminatory.

She admitted to previously playing as scum with scum!Thor in our hood. I can't recall if she mimicked the thought in-thread, because holy crap there's infinite posts. Her tone read on day 1 was meta based on her previous experience with Thor, and though she admitted it was limited it set the groundwork for her suspicions.

Like... she vote-parked him yesterday for the entirety of Day 3 even after fully stating that she was in favor of a beast lynch. There was opportunity to vote/hammer two separate slots yesterday, but she chose instead to stay parked on a Thor vote.

/ are posts that show a pretty concrete stance on the matter.
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Post Post #5373 (ISO) » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:32 am

Post by Slandaar »

No-one is debating GM's stance on Thor.

Did she have a result which implicates him or was it purely a read? I am not just going to assume because she was a town PR she was right.

I think it is very likely she did not have a result on D2 due to Thor's claim, I believe even as scum Thor would have RB'ed her n1 and claimed his target honestly when he did. So, we have 2 days of GM tunnel where it is very likely she had no result. Even when she tunnels the 3rd day at this point as I have said you can't just say she must have had a result when it can easily just be a continuation of the tunnel.
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Post Post #5374 (ISO) » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:34 am

Post by Slandaar »

If you want to paraphrase what was said in the hood if you think something there implies she had a result then that would be useful.
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