Long term health of mafiascum

[Phoenicks]

Chat-based games are a Wild West. Standardizing them to match our ideas of Normal games would require tremendous debate.

?

How so it seems pretty straight forward. Just implement common forum mechanics into chat mafia. Obviously different times and such.

We implement common forum mechanics: the computer only ends phases on majority, implements normal roles as we know them; everyone agrees to NAR or some other universal night action resolution; we use the chat we have now with minor modifications; etc. etc. (Already, we're doing things differently from most F2F and many IRC players we'd want to attract.)

What happens when players disconnect? Do we punish the account, or inflict a waiting penalty, or assume a good faith wifi problem and do nothing?

Do we enable a private message or whisper system? Do we ban private messages in play and trust users not to cheat? Do we change the chat so that users can't privately message each other? If someone threatens me via PM on site, I can report the PM; how do we enforce our site rules on chat?

How do we make games? Do we have a queue, or do hosts make games to which players join, or can players join in private first and then join a game? Do hosts make setups and then post them, or is there a fixed list, or do players haggle about the setup while they're in sign-ups? ('Host' as in the first player in the room since the computer handles admin.)

Since forum games are kept on the wiki, do we need ranks for chat games? Do we treat them casually, without records? Is system more like IRC or epicmafia? Surely we don't keep logs of every chat game? How else do we incentivize proper play?

We'll all disagree. Someone (mith et al.) has to decide. All other chat mafia sites scaled poorly and attracted allcaps trolls and griefers. It would take great effort to make something that attracts new, quality users, or else isn't only an IRC for the players we already have.

[chamber]

Me and kison put the chat together in like a week. I don't have a strong attachment to it if there is a better option. I disagree with your solution being a better option. I'm not being biased by my work investment in my code because we considered the option before the code was written.

The bulk of the work required would be in things like a mafia bot, which would be needed independent of the platform.
Cosmetic changes aren't going to take a serious amount of work if that's where issues primarily lay with the current chat.

[chamber]

Do we enable a private message or whisper system? Do we ban private messages in play and trust users not to cheat? Do we change the chat so that users can't privately message each other? If someone threatens me via PM on site, I can report the PM; how do we enforce our site rules on chat?

There is no automated process for this atm. Adding one is a reasonable suggestion. With that said all messages are logged so if someone ever says anything inappropriate to you, report it manually via PM to a discussion mod or admin.

[Muffin]

Me and kison put the chat together in like a week. I don't have a strong attachment to it if there is a better option. I disagree with your solution being a better option. I'm not being biased by my work investment in my code because we considered the option before the code was written.

The bulk of the work required would be in things like a mafia bot, which would be needed independent of the platform.
Cosmetic changes aren't going to take a serious amount of work if that's where issues primarily lay with the current chat.

Assuming a mafia bot can't be found in some open source repository, I will help write one. The site chat needs more than cosmetic changes to be usable for mafia games IMHO.

[Muffin]

Chat-based games are a Wild West. Standardizing them to match our ideas of Normal games would require tremendous debate.

?

How so it seems pretty straight forward. Just implement common forum mechanics into chat mafia. Obviously different times and such.

We implement common forum mechanics: the computer only ends phases on majority, implements normal roles as we know them; everyone agrees to NAR or some other universal night action resolution; we use the chat we have now with minor modifications; etc. etc. (Already, we're doing things differently from most F2F and many IRC players we'd want to attract.)

What happens when players disconnect? Do we punish the account, or inflict a waiting penalty, or assume a good faith wifi problem and do nothing?

Do we enable a private message or whisper system? Do we ban private messages in play and trust users not to cheat? Do we change the chat so that users can't privately message each other? If someone threatens me via PM on site, I can report the PM; how do we enforce our site rules on chat?

How do we make games? Do we have a queue, or do hosts make games to which players join, or can players join in private first and then join a game? Do hosts make setups and then post them, or is there a fixed list, or do players haggle about the setup while they're in sign-ups? ('Host' as in the first player in the room since the computer handles admin.)

Since forum games are kept on the wiki, do we need ranks for chat games? Do we treat them casually, without records? Is system more like IRC or epicmafia? Surely we don't keep logs of every chat game? How else do we incentivize proper play?

We'll all disagree. Someone (mith et al.) has to decide. All other chat mafia sites scaled poorly and attracted allcaps trolls and griefers. It would take great effort to make something that attracts new, quality users, or else isn't only an IRC for the players we already have.

Most of these seem like secondary concerns. If using IRC, anyone could run a game any way they wanted. All you need is channel operator status.

[chamber]

The site chat needs more than cosmetic changes to be usable for mafia games IMHO.

Talk concretely about what it needs.

[Psyche]

we'd just need a full-screen option and a half-pane thing and a bot to run the games

[GuyInFreezer]

Merge the chatroom tab and the list of online tab imo.
Because that way we can keep track on who is in which mafia room without much effort.

[GuyInFreezer]

Not exactly like this
but you get the idea.

[chamber]

I don't. How do you envision it working with additional windows? (where the games would presumably be played)

[GuyInFreezer]

Even with the design above it can work with how sitechat already works.
Minimized tabs shrink anyway, no?

[GuyInFreezer]

Something like this.

[Nero Cain]

I HIGHLY doubt that site design as anything to do with this site going down hill but more advertising seems like a good idea.

[wgeurts]

Even better you could force access to the IRC through the forums or advertise the forums in the chat.

[Shadoweh]

It's funny that the Micro Queue is such an innovation here to be honest, because it plays out the way mafia is played everywhere else. Quick, small, not needing as much time investment. I look at joining a non-Micro game right now and wow, it would cut into my Christmas holiday. Who has time for that for a forum-game?

Agreed completely.

I think this stems from site expectations: long games are standard here. Mafiascum has the longest deadlines of anywhere I know. (This includes sites with games of 40+ players (~5 days) and role madness of 25+ (~24 hours).) Since games last weeks, they need to be well-modded, which takes more rigmarole. High demands require high standards.

I love our long deadlines. Without them, we'd rely less on logic, lying, and listening than on cops and doctors.

I don't think we agree at all actually. You say logic, lying and listening, I say apathy and a playerbase that votes and ends games because fuckit we've been playing forever let's just get it over with. Games do not last weeks. They last Months. What I should have said was if I look into joining a Large right now, it would cut into my plans for

Febuary

. In my personal and doubtlessly unpopular opinion I don't think a game day should be longer then 1 week, maximum. There is such a thing as just too damn long.

[GuyInFreezer]

Also if we're getting an irc server make sure a post # restriction (Mafia Goon status will be enough) so the spambot doesn't spam up the irc chat.

[Muffin]

Also if we're getting an irc server make sure a post # restriction (Mafia Goon status will be enough) so the spambot doesn't spam up the irc chat.

Depending on which ircd is used you can require all registrations to be verified, restrict channels based on certain criteria, etc.

[chamber]

Also if we're getting an irc server make sure a post # restriction (Mafia Goon status will be enough) so the spambot doesn't spam up the irc chat.

Depending on which ircd is used you can require all registrations to be verified, restrict channels based on certain criteria, etc.

He's assuming IRC access would be via forum accounts, which is an accurate assumption. He just also understands that sometimes spam bots get past our forum registration.

[chamber]

In my personal and doubtlessly unpopular opinion I don't think a game day should be longer then 1 week, maximum.

It's ok for you to hold that opinion. I was just in a game with 8 day Days, and I felt I couldn't do anything in so little time. Making the game signup and creation system more flexible so that it can handle a wider variety of games is key to solving your issue I think. I'm the only one that's actually proposed any sort of change though, do you have any ideas?

[Muffin]

Also if we're getting an irc server make sure a post # restriction (Mafia Goon status will be enough) so the spambot doesn't spam up the irc chat.

Depending on which ircd is used you can require all registrations to be verified, restrict channels based on certain criteria, etc.

He's assuming IRC access would be via forum accounts, which is an accurate assumption. He just also understands that sometimes spam bots get past our forum registration.

Yes, I understood both his assumptions. Not sure what your point is.

[Katsuki]

I HIGHLY doubt that site design as anything to do with this site going down hill but more advertising seems like a good idea.

^

IMO problem is the quality of games declining severely, but there's not much that can be done to fix that, mafia isn't a game where you can roll out a patch to fix meta.

[chamber]

Also if we're getting an irc server make sure a post # restriction (Mafia Goon status will be enough) so the spambot doesn't spam up the irc chat.

Depending on which ircd is used you can require all registrations to be verified, restrict channels based on certain criteria, etc.

He's assuming IRC access would be via forum accounts, which is an accurate assumption. He just also understands that sometimes spam bots get past our forum registration.

Yes, I understood both his assumptions. Not sure what your point is.

Because manual approval is just a really bad system at that point? There is a reason the forum isn't set to manual approval, it removes the responsiveness of the system, the very thing you should be looking to create with a chat community.

[Muffin]

Ah, I see. My mistake. I wasn't suggesting manual approval, I see now I should have worded it more clearly.

[Zachrulez]

Touching on newbie games, if you're really looking to appeal to a variety of users, the setup is probably less the problem than the fact that the deadline rules are uniform. Some people are maybe looking for phases that are a few days long, some maybe a week, some maybe more? Perhaps it's worthwhile to offer different deadline structures there?

I also think the setup should be simple enough that an IC can easily explain it, and on that thought, we shouldn't be frequently changing the setup as that's actually one of the things that can throw IC knowledge off. It kinda throws a curveball into explaining a setup flawlessly when the setup is new to you. I know personally in the F11 era I was never worried about screwing up in explaining that setup... when the setup was changed, that comfort was gone. I don't know if there's anyone else on the site that feels that way, maybe I'm the only one.

[Shadoweh]

In my personal and doubtlessly unpopular opinion I don't think a game day should be longer then 1 week, maximum.

It's ok for you to hold that opinion. I was just in a game with 8 day Days, and I felt I couldn't do anything in so little time. Making the game signup and creation system more flexible so that it can handle a wider variety of games is key to solving your issue I think. I'm the only one that's actually proposed any sort of change though, do you have any ideas?

From what I understand, the reason moderators here run longer games is because games have always been long here. I'm not sure changing how the queue system works would change what people think the base length of a game should be, rather then Mafiascum Official (tm) guidelines changing. Right now Newbies have to be run with two week deadlines, so the first experience in theory people have with this site is a month to two month long game. (with exceptions obviously for more likely to quickhammer..)

I am simply suggesting mods run shorter deadline games more often as a community. The good side of this is it seems deadlines do keep getting shorter here over time?