Long term health of mafiascum

[BBmolla]

Rising from the dead.

Is there any way to code chat mafia games in the chat? Like make a simple chat bot?

Do we want mafiascum to be the go to for all mafia games? Chat, webcam, etc?

Epicmafia is trash, there is currently no where to play chat mafia games with any reasonable balance. I think MS filling that void could bring in a lot of users.

In it's current form, the chat isn't really a good way for mafia games imo.

I agree with Reck about tracking stats, if there was any possible way we could get that going, I know that'd attract a lot of attention.

Automated modding may also want to be a way we start heading towards. Insert the roles in the game, insert the player names, role pms automatically go out, and stats start to be tracked.

I have no idea what I'm talking about with that though.

[BBmolla]

If sitechat is really going to be used for mafia, it'd make sense to have a fixed-link fullscreen version of the chat so votecount lines don't break and it's easier to look back in history, for example. It should really look like a place to play mafia, having all information (rooms, players online, xylbot docs) in one place, not just like a superimposed add-on.

^this, so much this.

xylbot for sitechat would be pretty cool.

I agree

I'm really interested in the whole automation thing and there's really little limit to how much time I'd volunteer to help out with that. I don't think it's that big of a deal for attracting people, but anything that accelerates the engagement of new users with the site seems like a great idea to me.

I think it really comes down to lack of people who are able/willing to code/program it.

Mafiascum the forum is never going to be a F2F mafia site.

This is a pretty silly thing to say imo. Have you not been to a meetup?

Oh, I use the default skin, so that is such a nonfactor to me.

With that being said, I think if we're serious about making chat mafia work, I think it could use the icons that epicmafia has. Epicmafia is honestly a really good implementation of chat mafia, it just sucks ass for various reasons:
-Way roles are programmed limits creativity (no x-shot, no modifiers in general, no custom roles)
-The meta there is beyond garbage, more about figuring out counter claims than scum hunting. They play 1 cop, 1 doc, 2 maf, 3 vanilla simply because "that's how it's always been."
-Lobby system has devolved into a clusterfuck.

Like, if the above were fixed, I'd honestly probably go back to EM. But the fact of the matter is, the quality of the players here is so immensely better it's not even funny. The playerbase being terrible is largely influenced by the above issues imo.

I love chat mafia. I really do. The fact of the matter is all chat mafia options at the moment are TERRIBLE.

Instead of making the chat like a facebook chatroom, it should be its own section. Like, is it possible to have it so that at the index, include another section under Mish Mash called "chat mafia." Maybe make it to make a new game, you make a new topic. When someone enters the topic, it opens up the chatroom? I donno. But having the chat mafia be a section of site is a step in the right direction, it's like would you ever want to run a game in a facebook chatroom? Probably not.

This of course assumes unlimited manpower which is ridiculous.

I know I'm someone who would play chat mafia, and I'm trying to give answers as to why I don't. And it simply comes down to:
-Too much of a pain in the ass to play in the current chat thing.
-There are better automated chat systems
-...but unfortunately they all have terrible metas (Mafia is SC2 and Epicmafia come to mind).

[BBmolla]

Last but not least I'd ponder the mechanics of the game and what makes it fun and challenging to come up with a hybrid form between forum mafia and mmorpg that lasts something like 1 year/game. It would have to be dynamic in a way that favors the individual to choose strategically whether to be part of organized crime, law enforcement or be a neutral citizen to maximize one's success and gameplay in a way subjected to evolutionary laws to assure an axiomatic balance.

No.

I always thought it was weird people weren't playing audio mafia on the radio show though.

You can also easily have audience participation, have the thread, and for each day have people submit who they think the scum are. For each time you mention the correct scum, you gain a point.

Whoever gets the most points gets a shoutout/tops the leaderboard whatever.

Example:
"Day 1
Scum are BBmolla and Doofus"

"Day 2
Scum are Stupefy and Poopsikins"

"Day 3
Scum is Poopsikins (I never would have guessed Sneaky Bastard was scum wtf)"

If the scumteam was Sneaky Bastard and Poopsikins, I'd get 2 points.

Shooting out ideas.

[BBmolla]

Chat-based games are a Wild West. Standardizing them to match our ideas of Normal games would require tremendous debate.

?

How so it seems pretty straight forward. Just implement common forum mechanics into chat mafia. Obviously different times and such.

[BBmolla]

I really agree with this. At every level mafiascum chooses quality over quantity. I'd rather be on the internet's best mafia site than the internet's largest. (The best option would be to not have to choose.)

There's a point where growth stops so much that you know 75% of the players in every game.

And I believe we're at that point.

[BBmolla]

What happens when players disconnect? Do we punish the account, or inflict a waiting penalty, or assume a good faith wifi problem and do nothing?

Automate a replacement system.

If that's too much, ban the user from playing for x amount of time. Every time they repeat add to x. Once they stop doing it over extended periods of time, slowly decrease x.
Punish the people who use it as a strategy, but allow those with an emergency to leave if needed.

Do we enable a private message or whisper system? Do we ban private messages in play and trust users not to cheat? Do we change the chat so that users can't privately message each other? If someone threatens me via PM on site, I can report the PM; how do we enforce our site rules on chat?

Do what we do with forum games. Mods can check PMs of people we suspect are cheating. I'm sure there is some way to check chat records or some shit to confirm someone flinging insults.

How do we make games? Do we have a queue, or do hosts make games to which players join, or can players join in private first and then join a game? Do hosts make setups and then post them, or is there a fixed list, or do players haggle about the setup while they're in sign-ups? ('Host' as in the first player in the room since the computer handles admin.)

I'd think of something where players message bot with "/create game" or whatever and the bot asks you various questions to create the game. "Closed or Open?" "I make it, or you?"
We can make a bunch of different closed game setups that will be randomly chosen for the "Closed" option where the player wants to play. Or just have C9++.

Since forum games are kept on the wiki, do we need ranks for chat games? Do we treat them casually, without records? Is system more like IRC or epicmafia? Surely we don't keep logs of every chat game? How else do we incentivize proper play?

As I've been saying, including stats gives people more incentive to take it seriously, but obviously is not required as can be seen from how this site currently works.
We incentivize proper play the same way we do on forums.

We'll all disagree. Someone (mith et al.) has to decide. All other chat mafia sites scaled poorly and attracted allcaps trolls and griefers. It would take great effort to make something that attracts new, quality users, or else isn't only an IRC for the players we already have.

I had some really solid games in Epicmafia back in the day. Sure, you get the Trolls, but they had their sandbox to play their version in. Even better for us, the Trolls have their own site to play in (epicmafia).
I think a lot of problems can be figured out as we go.

[BBmolla]

Does anyone have the knowledge / experience to make a new mafia basics video?

I mean

What exactly would people be looking for?

[BBmolla]

chamber, quick functionality question, when I click the middle mouse button and try to scroll via that (moving mouse up and down), it instead scrolls me on the site instead of in the chat, is this fixable in any way?

[BBmolla]

Chrome.

[BBmolla]

If I actually scroll the mousewheel it works, but I browse through pages by clicking the mousewheel and moving up and down, which it freaks out about.

[BBmolla]

I always thought it was weird people weren't playing audio mafia on the radio show though.

We did mafia a couple of times, at least twice. It just doesn't work that well. Everyone talking makes it hard to know what's happening, and even if people talk one at a time, you end up with voices not being distinct enough.

Gotcha.

[BBmolla]

A lot of the suggestions have been technical in nature. The problem there is the amount of man power we have. I can take 1 thing and run with it, I don't have the time or drive to do 10 things. This effort is going to take the whole community to be successful. If there is something you can think of that you can do, share it.

This is completely understandable by the way.

[BBmolla]

Seperate note, I think the new newbie setup is probably the most confusing we've had yet.

Is there any reason we don't just do F11 minus the last setup? It's not the most balanced but it's simple and introduces the users to the site without having to worry about roles. (Because let's be honest, most people who have mafia experience know what those roles are so it won't be any sort of shock)

Or even have the newbies /in for 1E2 (hexidecimal for 111100010) OR the new setup, just say like "1E2 is suggested for absolute beginners, where Matrix6 is suggested for players who have a bit more mafia experience elsewhere but want to learn how to play here"

"What's wrong with the current setup?"

• Bulletproof should claim Doctor in many situations, and it's weird having a newbie setup which has situations in which it is optimal to fake claim as town.
  
• 1-shot Bulletproof is honestly not that common of a role and it's strange to include in a setup which introduces players to the site (When I played 2of4, I expected that Cop, Doc, JK were very common on site.)
  
• Doctor + Tracker vs. 2 Goons is scary as all hell as scum. Especially when compared to 1-shot BP + Tracker vs. 2 Goons. The optimal strategy when a Tracker claims is always to kill him, and mafia will basically be boned or fine depending on whether the other PR is BP or Doc.

I can take this argument elsewhere though. It'd also probably be ideal to ask the newbies themselves what they'd prefer probably, cause obviously I'm speaking from someone of experience. The above reasons are why I dislike the new setup though.

[BBmolla]

I can do badly animated flash videos to help with the "multimedia introduction tool", but if the goal is to not look tacky I don't know how much that'd help us.

Examples:
Meet the Villager
Meet the Mafia
Meet the Doctor
Meet the Cop

(I also fixed the exporting issue that plagued a lot of these)

[BBmolla]

Imo, keeping stats is dangerous due to the vagaries of game balance.

Players already feel cheated if they lost because they believe other team is too strong, it will be worse if losing becomes a mark on their permanent record.

I would also anticipate far more strategic replacing out, and replacing out is already something that happens too often.

Normal games could become ranked games.

Unless you can point out to me some incredibly and angrily unbalanced normals.

[BBmolla]

Making Normal ranked and automated would mean we'd have to redo the modding process for new mods.

Which I'm entirely okay with.

[BBmolla]

In regards to chat mafia, here is what Epicmafia looks like:

Spoiler: Pics

Also of note: EM has a fucking soundtrack now by the way ahahaha. Third picture is a visual mode that I guess is being worked on, during the day you can walk around and text bubbles appear above people's heads.

It just sucks because look at the setup. It's night start. It's the most common on site setup.

Out of this I think the most important thing is having the playerlist with dead roles shown in graveyard. It's a really nice "here is the current situation" that I feel is honestly pretty essential. Rest is fluffy.

Votecount to the right is nice too.

Edit: I don't think we should steal obviously, but looking at what EM does right and avoiding what they do wrong is probably the best way to go about this, no?

Also the fact I won that game should show how little thought goes into the games played on that site. Literally was just "I claim cop" "I cc" and then lynch between us to win or lose the game.

[BBmolla]

Sorry, obviously the automation is the most important part, I just meant design wise I like seeing who is currently playing and who is voting who at all times.

[BBmolla]

I really like the standard setup. It's a quick, short game that is perfect for chat. It gets deep depending on how nightactions play out. (Doctor protecting Night 1 plays very differently from doc dying and cop getting an innocent.) In all cases, lynching between the cops is sufficient for a scum win but not a town win. (But it's harder to fakeclaim.) I think many players have a "just one more" reaction to this setup.

I agree there are better setups (4 VTs, 1 cop, 1 gov, 1 godfather, 1 goon, night start) for chat mafia. But this also belongs in a different thread.

Day 1 MYLO is dumb. Doesn't matter if chat, face to face, or forum, it's stupid.

[BBmolla]

New thread for 1E2 would be cool.

[BBmolla]

I can do badly animated flash videos to help with the "multimedia introduction tool", but if the goal is to not look tacky I don't know how much that'd help us.

Examples:
Meet the Villager
Meet the Mafia
Meet the Doctor
Meet the Cop

(I also fixed the exporting issue that plagued a lot of these)

I think it would be great to carry your comedic style into it. The graphical work likely needs to up it's game though.

I can try to spend more time on it, maybe try to emulate DGB's style.

The style I used was just quick and easy.

But obviously if we have someone who can actually animate/draw well... yeah

[BBmolla]

Something mafiascum could do that would be pretty sweet is to make little "mafia theory flashcards" of sorts with basic tips and tricks for play as each role, as well as a card explaining NAR and stuff, then have them printable for free on our website. Have the ms logo and URL on them, take them to board game clubs etc, as well as anywhere that plays offline mafia.

Open Setups on flashcards might be a good idea, I'd actually use that.

[BBmolla]

Epicmafia still has shit mechanics on various roles.

Hooker not blocking Watcher and shit like that.

[BBmolla]

- Figure out why EpicMafia and Town of Salem draw people (conclusion was that they're both more fun-oriented than competition-oriented)

I think a lot of people play here at mafiascum to stroke their mafia e-penis. To show that they can win by pure skill and not by luck compared to those other two places.

Have we considered a ranked queue before? I'm sure it's been discussed and rejected, just curious why.

The broken ass micros I've run have their place on this site, but I do think it's odd that epicmafia, the aboslute shithole of mafia (lovingly of course), has a competitive points system and such and we do not.

I personally don't play anymore because I'm simply not on frequently enough to stay caught up in games. I work every day and rehearse every night, post show maybe I'll get back into things, but I'm just too damned busy.

If there was a really nicely done automod I would mod a lot more setups. It's 2018, shouldn't that be a thing by now? Like, I know this is php, but isn't there some sort of third party thing we could use? And before I get "go to mafiauniverse," no thanks, they're fine but I like the environment and people here more.

I'm not super into the site right now so all of this could be off the mark.

Also, team mafia doesn't count in my eyes, it's an event, a seasonal competitive rankings system would be cool, could have a playoff game with the top 13 or whatever. Idk. Just spit balling.

[BBmolla]

The broken ass micros I've run have their place on this site, but I do think it's odd that epicmafia, the aboslute shithole of mafia (lovingly of course), has a competitive points system and such and we do not.

If MS implemented a points system, I'd turn it off or make it private. Sounds like an okay thing at first, but it'd put pressure on the higher ranking players to live up to their achievement and might cause resentment from the lower ranking players. Plus, we're human. We're more than just the numbers associated with our lives.

You misunderstand me, not points for the whole site, just for a single queue. The fun no stakes games need to still exist, but there should be a next step for those who want it.

50%+ of the playerbase will likely ignore the queue, but it’d help with retention I think because will have a stake in the points.

[BBmolla]

2) Automating the queues to some extent - makes it easier to see what's coming up & allows us to begin tracking some stats, and also opens the door for...
3) Moderator tools. Even if we merely automated vote counts, the gameplay experience is greatly improved & eases the burden on the supply-strained moderator pool.

I think these two should be the focus.

[BBmolla]

Okay I came up with how to save the site

So we know our influx of people is decent but we have poor retention rates. People don't care about staying, and why should they? Mafiascum prides itself on its focus on dayplay but doesn't offer any long lasting recognition for good dayplay except, like, the scummies, which only one person wins each year and as threads in MD will show you currently nobody cares about. So here's the plan:

First things first we get automated mods. This step will take forever but I think its crucial to the future of MS. It is important to also have regular player mods as I feel part of our charm at MS comes from our creativity (See: Any Magua setup.)

Second, we add a ranked queue. This allows players who take mafia a bit more seriously to play with others who do so as well. Impose harsher punishments on flaking and such in this queue as well as use the automated mods for stat tracking which can be seen on players profiles. Each ranked queue game will randomly choose a setup from a giant list of setups created by the NRG. I'm talking like 1000 setups per game size. A points system in place can reward a player each month/every couple months for being the top ranked player, or we could even just have a leaderboard.

Third, players have a customizable "portrait" that is posted when lynched or killed in a ranked game. This portrait can be found on the profile, but other than that has absolutely no other affect. And by "customizable" I mean like gaia online kind of shit, where you can get hats and clothes or whatever to make the guy your own. I want to reiterate that besides the ranked queue, nobody will be bothered or forced to see or deal with these portraits. And if a player doesn't care, they can obviously just use the default portrait.

Fourth, we charge very small micro transactions for various different items to show off your e-penis. This money will go straight towards our financials which could use some help.

newbie124,

Vanilla Townie

, was killed night 1.

mafianalbeedscum69,

Mafia Goon

, was killed night 1.

I don't know how to do any of this in a practical way but if I had to dream up an scenario it'd look like this. The rest of the site besides this would remain as it is.

[BBmolla]

that's fine too

[BBmolla]

Why would ranked queue make you quit when you literally could just not play there

[BBmolla]

Ranked queue= I might quit

Are you sure that wouldn't be good for the long term health.

But I don't like the ranked. We play a long time in a game, so for me the one game counts, not how I do overall.
And games are too diferent.

Heh, I looks good you won 2 game in a row, not so great when it gets out in one of them you self-hammered (okay as scum) and won only by luck.

I don’t understand your point here. A ranked queue would basically be normal queue but with tracked rankings somewhere (how many points people get for victories can be discussed obv, it’d have to be discussed if you got more/less points for certain roles etc.)

The biggest thing is it’d be easily quantify-able to see who wins more and who loses, so people could easier show off their e-peen

Keep in mind this is coming from a guy who was in like bottom 50 when someone came up with a system for rankings a while back.

The big thing too would be harsher punishments in that queue for flaking.

If retention is not an issue this is irrelevant. As it stands I think people realize that in the end the games they play here don’t matter so they leave and go somewhere where there is a record stating they are legit at this game.

I guess what is the argument for not having one?

[BBmolla]

And the scummies don’t count, they were designed for an earlier site meta where games were 100 pages or less. It’s ridiculous that we now expect judges to judge multiple 200+ page games.

We are at a site that cares about statistics more than most sites yet we have no ranked queue or any official stat tracking.

[BBmolla]

And if your argument is comprised of “I wouldn’t use it” that’s fine, the rest of the games will still be here.

[BBmolla]

I could argue the same thing for the scummies

I could argue the same thing about not deleting threads after games end, I guess we should just delete them so no one uses them to be toxic.

[BBmolla]

A ranked queue will be the death of the site

Why

If you don’t like the queue you don’t play in it who cares?

[BBmolla]

It’s like someone saying “team mafia will ruin the site,” it’s absolute nonsense.

Any arguments about people using it to show off or whatever are dumb arguments anyway. Any of us who have played league or over watch or whatever games know the “my stats are better, you play support.” But that shouldn’t stop ranked games it’s really not that big of a deal and that sort of thing happens at this site already so it won’t be any different.

[BBmolla]

It’s like someone saying “team mafia will ruin the site,” it’s absolute nonsense.

Any arguments about people using it to show off or whatever are dumb arguments anyway. Any of us who have played league or over watch or whatever games know the “my stats are better, you play support.” But that shouldn’t stop ranked games it’s really not that big of a deal and that sort of thing happens at this site already so it won’t be any different.

I mean the idea that a ranked queue getting popular enough that it might get difficult to find an unranked game could be a legitimate worry. I just see all this clamoring for a ranked queue and my thought is... why? Do people think it will actually measure player skill in any meaningful way? It's possible to play a great game and still lose just as it's possible to play an absolutely awful game and still win. There's probably even an argument for it making players more toxic as their rage level builds on that unreasonable player that just won't listen

because their rating is riding on this!

I mean I don't even hugely care and it didn't take me long to think about these potential issues.

If it means more players stay than there's no problem, it'll even out. If it means all the current players move to it and retention rates go unchanged, then we get rid of it.

Like Blitz queue

[BBmolla]

I donno. I guess it depends on what your vision for the site is.

For me I want this to be the go to place for forum mafia focusing on dayplay. I think it's the purest form of mafia and I haven't seen anywhere else have it down as well as we do. I think the next step in keeping incredible players here is to give them a chance to thrive by letting them prove themselves.

In addition, I think it's important also to keep our roots, which is our incredible theme games that are balanced like nowhere else.

I think this is the place for both of those things to thrive, but I guess that's just me.

[BBmolla]

Like, epicmafia has a competitive system and we don't.

but I guess epicmafia is more competitive than here so *shrug*

[BBmolla]

Again, I feel like W/L record is better. W/L record accomplishes the same goal of giving meaning to the games, without all the horror of a ranking system. Plus it matches what people are currently doing. Not reinventing the wheel is good!

Seriously, to start with, any ranking system for a team game has to approximately determine the strength of the team. Methods for doing this could probably fill a book, and are in all respects slightly arbitrary, as it's very hard to develop a methodology of quantifying both how much individual player skill contributes to team win, and how much a lack of other player skill contributes to team loss.

If we argue that a win/loss for each role is equally difficult, or not different enough to make it an issue, I’m fine with a W/L ELO system.

The nice thing about points is you can give scum victories more points which I think in general they deserve

The best way imo is to give points based off the EV value. Say 60% chance of victory, you get 40 points. 51% of victory you get 49 points. Etc.

[BBmolla]

Like, epicmafia has a competitive system and we don't.

And what, pray tell, did the competitive system do to the quality of site culture on EpicMafia including games?

EpicMafia was, back in the day, considered respectable.
Now the idea of EpicMafia and respectable in the same sentence is a laugh riot.

Epic mafia died because lucid stopped any sort of quality control and added a bunch of awful roles, let’s not kid ourselves.

[BBmolla]

What I mean is the old League of Legends problem. Say you have a message from God saying "at this point in time, every player in the world has these scores that reflect their ability." These scores are 100% accurate, guaranteed to be correct.

Now a game starts. In that game of 5v5, there is Team A {3900, 1400, 700, 800,500} vs. Team B {3300, 3100, 2900, 3000, 2700}. Team A loses. What were the odds that was the expected outcome? How many points do you remove from the 3900 player's score?

These questions are INCREDIBLY hard to answer. And now consider that the rankings we have are uncertain, not cast in stone. And it gets worse, we have an asymmetrical game. I bet a 3900,1400,400 scumteam is better than a 2200,2100,2100 scum team. But that might not be the case at all for town. You are simplifying a problem that is not simple in any way.

P.S. This won't get done because of this obnoxious insistence on developing a "rating" system that can't possibly work.

I could use this same argument to argue against having ICs in newbie games.

Sometimes players will lose games because of their team mates, it’s a team game, it happens. Sometimes teams will be unbalanced, it happens. If you really wanted to you could easily create a formula that accounts for a teams true odds of winning or losing and giving points accordingly but you wanted to keep it simple.

I don’t care how the ranking system works, it could just be W/L or more complicated, I’m simply arguing in favor of a queue that records those who do well in some way and has harsher punishments for flaking.

[BBmolla]

And if you look at my plan automation should be top priority anyway

I just wanted to create some micro transactions for ms to help with financials and a ranked queue with the features I described makes most sense for doing so without disrupting the freedom of the site.

[BBmolla]

I think EM can use a competitive queue in a way that would be difficult for us to replicate simply because we don't play as many games as you can on EM, etc. because our games last many, many times longer.

That said, I think RECORD KEEPING would be positive. Wins, losses, perhaps broken down in scum and town, etc. It doesn't have to be something where we publicize the "best" player on the site from it, but having some way to really look back at your games and make some comparisons would be neat.

I can live with that

[BBmolla]

good job kison