NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #4550 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:59 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

Well Thor, you are effectively doing what you did to me in InuYasha. Getting you to claim and move the gamestate forward was the correct play. Not really sure what you think is "scummy" unless you think I'm faking pro-town play which is just lol. Perhaps instead of calling everyone elses play bad you should look at your own.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #4551 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:26 pm

Post by beastcharizard »

I only said game day tomorrow because I thought someone had already hammered.
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Post Post #4552 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:26 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 4545, Josh_B wrote:you should be voting Dave with me. These...


In post 4464, AxleGreaser wrote:Sorry that should have been obvious
VOTE: Davesaz


???
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Post Post #4553 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:51 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 4512, Aegor wrote:[1]AxleGreaser:


@Mod
The name voting me is nero?


@captain, errm the ship seems to be running into ice berg Nero anyway?

[
2
3]Nero Cain: Boonskiies, T S O, TierShift

If I went back to voting the slot, and it is in my list of eminently lynchable slots, it would be equal lead wagon?
are you sure its not, in your list?
Spoiler: You could consider these recent compelling arguments
In post 4520, T S O wrote:is anyone actually townreading nero after that jump on axle

like fucking really

In post 4539, Boonskiies wrote:
In post 4520, T S O wrote:is anyone actually townreading nero after that jump on axle

like fucking really



Freaking seriously...there's no possible way Nero's town.
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Post Post #4554 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:15 pm

Post by beastcharizard »

So no one hammered Thor? I am confused.
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Post Post #4555 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:31 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 4553, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 4512, Aegor wrote:[1]AxleGreaser:


@Mod
The name voting me is nero?


@captain, errm the ship seems to be running into ice berg Nero anyway?

[
2
3]Nero Cain: Boonskiies, T S O, TierShift

If I went back to voting the slot, and it is in my list of eminently lynchable slots, it would be equal lead wagon?
are you sure its not, in your list?
Spoiler: You could consider these recent compelling arguments
In post 4520, T S O wrote:is anyone actually townreading nero after that jump on axle

like fucking really

In post 4539, Boonskiies wrote:
In post 4520, T S O wrote:is anyone actually townreading nero after that jump on axle

like fucking really



Freaking seriously...there's no possible way Nero's town.


If you won't listen to me, listen to him.

In post 4479, Thor665 wrote:For the record, because no one else was apparently willing to read (skim) it and offer a thought.

I found the Axle/Nero thing obnoxious.

That said, though I find Nero's logic derpy (still)
I do have to agree with him that Axle was parsing it weirdly when he was making claims about what Nero did or didn't say vis-a-vi suspecting me and the PL derp talk.

That is not a defense of Nero's bad reads towards my slot -
but he does have the more valid push in that matter, and in my opinion is basically winning the argument
.
Axle was correct though in that Nero chose some creative copy paste to try to prove the point...but ignores that in some of them Nero didn't do that.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #4556 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:33 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 4554, beastcharizard wrote:So no one hammered Thor? I am confused.

nope.

You should help me lynch Axle or Tier.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #4557 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:36 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In the discussion below you had asked me "would you think they are scum or town?"
and it was a question about how you scum read or don't someone
OMGUSSing
you when you question them.
There is a
questioner
and a
responder
we are talking about how and what criteria you use to assess the
responder
who is
OMGUSSing

Spoiler: What we had discussed
In post 4426, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 4421, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 4418, AxleGreaser wrote:

I thought you were scummy for claiming that Boons contradicted himself, when he didn't. Your reaction was to start questioning me and treating me like a scum read, which is the definition of a OMGUS attack. Yes, I know that OMGUS does come from town but it also comes from scum and I think its hard to tell the difference between the two. IF you called someone scum and they attack you back, would you think they are scum or town?

Yes and no. As it depends on intent. I have developed strong town reads on people because they attacked me. (If they are town they have to try and work out my alignment somehow)
I have developed strong scum reads on people because they neither attacked me, nor worked out my alignment, but somehow just knew.
As for your point I frequently check out people who are scum reading me, one advantage of doing it at that time is they have no excuse to run away and not talk to me.

k. Explain what you think my intent was.


When?

You asked about how to read situation when the person being question responds in what may be characterised as an OMGUS manner.
That does not match the above situation where you describe period when you initially questioned me.



You asked, a vague question about a not exactly specified event.
I point out the situations dont match.

And they do not match, the previous discussion had been about how to scum read an
OMOGUSSing responder
, but you now appear to be asking that I thus give you a read on a
Questioner


It has taken me a while to sort this out as you post a big fat wall and made no mark or distinction where this points ends.
With my snipping of your post I aim to make what you meant clearer.
If you claim it is not what you meant you will have to explain.

Spoiler: Here is where you made it clearER.
In post 4434, Nero Cain wrote:
[.........stuff.......]
^^^
that was the basis of my scumread on you.

In post 2593, AxleGreaser wrote:Because frankly its making you look scummy, as making baseless insults that put people down and denigrate their opinions is a scummy way to argue a point.

here is your OMGUS attack on me.

Earlier, you were arguing that MY attack on you was scummy.

So I asked

IF you called someone scum and they attack you back, would you think they are scum or town?


You told me that it depends on intent.

I asked you to explain my intent.

You then
LIED
and claimed that you never attacked me.

[... more stuff that TBMK is on a different topic ...]



Also, I probably do disagree that when responding to you attacking me that I "
OMGUSed
" you.
When I use that word, I use it when the response is based on the Logic OMG you are so bad to suspect *****ME***** that you must be scum.
The wiki has these words "voting for someone primarily because they voted for you" and the primarily because is for me important.
I am pretty sure, I just don't OMGUS. I look for intent. I know people can make mistakes and think I am scum. I push back to either find out if its genuine, town attack, or to make it easier for the thread to see that it is not genuine.
Here is me testing the genuineness of you. Deal with it.

I do find people scummy when they attack me, scummily, thats not quite OMGUS as I use it. (or as I see the spirit of the wikis use of it)
I do also find people very towny when they attack me, but do it as town for town reasons.

I don't as it would be stupid beyond belief claim that at the time you are describing I didn't find your actions/style a bit scum motivated.
It was IIRC a terribly strong feeling/read at that time, if as it appears it is part of an enduring trend then that is another matter.
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Post Post #4558 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:39 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

EBWOP
fsck
In post 4557, AxleGreaser wrote:It was IIRC
not
a terribly strong feeling/read at that time, if as it appears it is part of an enduring trend then that is another matter.
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Post Post #4559 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:54 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 4555, Nero Cain wrote:If you won't listen to me, listen to him
<Thor>
.


I do find it intriguing that you want to policy Lynch Thor for being ...
(actually i am not sure what specific reason you have, but usually to be PL'd even vaguely like you are suggesting the guy has to be useless.)

yet here you are asking me to listen to the guy playing so badly, that you want to PL him...

Also as you did some long time ago before you put him on your PL list, have a scummish read on him of some sort.

Why would you trust what he says, and his opinion, and then also expect me too?

I dont really care what Thor says,
its a demonstrable fact that you were not referring to Thor as scummy in the period since when you listed him as a PL lynch not as most likely to flip scum lynch.
That is not you trying to lynch scum.

This post does have you using language that refers to Thors as a viable wagon, indicating there is compromise involved.
BUT <<<
(and thats the big BUT)

The other wagons you hypothesise about being able to run... TSO Axle and JoshB
Two out of three of those are also on your PL list. That is not you resorting to those as a compromise that is you actively pushing them ahead of your actual scum reads.
And Josh B...<who is on your scum list> you had chance to vote him but would not compromise off your smaller going nowhere wagon onto the larger one....
In post 4393, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 4391, Thor665 wrote:i was pushing people to advance the wagon enough so I could get the claim out of the way - forcing both wagon accontability *and* a claim.

So...you wanted to get the claim out of the way and so did I but I am some how scummy for wanting the same thing you did?

Yours is the only viable wagon that I support unless an Axle or TSO wagon pops up *hint hint* or if the Josh B wagon grows.
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Post Post #4560 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:57 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 4554, beastcharizard wrote:So no one hammered Thor? I am confused.


The following is not a hammer vote it is a fake claim to be a double voter...

In post 4176, reinoe wrote:
@MOD:

ACTIVATE MY DOUBLE VOTE

VOTE: thor
Let's not wait for his fake-claim.


So no thor is not hammered you need to play. At least enough that the people voting you can feel good about doing something useful instead of demanding that you play.

Pls?
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Post Post #4561 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:01 pm

Post by TierShift »

For flub and gm
In post 3622, TierShift wrote:@TSO: yadda yadda yadda

In I thought Thor was trying to shift suspicion onto garmr without explicitly stating it. That's why I asked why he asked. Then, in thor says where it's actually at: just as he is, I'm townreading garmr for the replace-out. However, I wasn't very open about it, basically because everyone was yelling at me it wasn't true. (wait I'm totally noting that I think there is scum in one of those nay-sayers).

3507 made no sense at all for a scum player. Not only was he stating a townread on the (only) counterwagon (which can be done for towncred), he was also actively trying to get other people (me) to townread garmr.

Then in 3613 I see him stating something that looks like final reads, without trying to take credit for doing so. Instead, he is encouraging people to join his wagon, if only to do something with their vote, to show where their intentions lie. Not trying to push counterwagons but trying t get other people to do somethong so he can read them.

Tl;dr: he's close to getting lynched and gives no shit about that, but DOES give a shit about why he's getting lynched. Scumhunting still in the face of getting the noose.
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Post Post #4562 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:01 pm

Post by TierShift »

In post 4543, Nero Cain wrote:Whats so good about it?

What's not good about it?
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Post Post #4563 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:02 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 4556, Nero Cain wrote:You should help me lynch Axle or Tier.


Apart from vote you recently is there something specific Tier has done that moved him up to one of your top two, most likely to flip scum?

There would seem to be lot of work required to get Tier lynched, I don't recall a recent wagon/vote on him.
That looks little more like posturing than an actual intent to get Tier lynched because you think he is scum
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Post Post #4564 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:03 pm

Post by TierShift »

In post 4556, Nero Cain wrote:You should help me lynch Axle or Tier.

Lol

What are your arguments for either?
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Post Post #4565 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:04 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 4557, AxleGreaser wrote:You asked, a vague question about a not exactly specified event.

no. Its not vauge, its what happened.

In post 4434, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 2587, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 2585, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1813, Boonskiies wrote:
I'm playing the way I am for a reason
. This reason shall be brought out, and most likely the main subject of Day 2.

In post 2581, Boonskiies wrote:This game is based off the neighborhoods. It's meant to be the main points of discussion.


No on D1 one your claim was about your role being "the main subject of D2"

Boons 2581 was saying that...see....mods know what they are doing. When a mod makes a game with hoods they EXPECT hood talk and thats what he was saying. So this looks really misreppy.

^^^
that was the basis of my scumread on you.

In post 2593, AxleGreaser wrote:Because frankly its making you look scummy, as making baseless insults that put people down and denigrate their opinions is a scummy way to argue a point.

here is your OMGUS attack on me.

Earlier, you were arguing that MY attack on you was scummy.

So I asked

IF you called someone scum and they attack you back, would you think they are scum or town?


You told me that it depends on intent.

I asked you to explain my intent.

You then
LIED
and claimed that you never attacked me.



You started calling me scummy for attacking you, that is EXACTLY what an OMGUS attack is. What exactly did you find scummy other than just being angry that I attacked you?

but I don't really know what you are expecting here 'cause like I don't think Boons contradicted himself the way you were claiming. I delt like that was scummy 'cause you were using a bullshit reason to push him.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #4566 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:29 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 4559, AxleGreaser wrote:I do find it intriguing that you want to policy Lynch Thor for being ...

I am pretty much with Thor here in that there's alot of really bad play and its hard to tell the bad from the good.

In post 4121, Nero Cain wrote:like I don't want to kill shiro or boon yet. I guess GM, Rein and Dave can go there as well.

^^^^
is basically my town core/not folks I want to lynch yet and thus I don't care that much if anyone else gets lynched (well besides myself). Its functionally the same thing as Thor being willing to lynch anyone. If you believe that its scummy of me that I don't care if my lesser scum reads get lynched, why then are you ignoring Thor for the same reason?

In post 4559, AxleGreaser wrote:Also as you did some long time ago before you put him on your PL list, have a scummish read on him of some sort.

If you are now claiming that I DID scumread Thor, why do you think it was unreasonable of me to still minorly suspect him and be willing to lynch him?

When we were arguing last night it was early morning here, I MAY have unintentionally misrepped you BUT I think that whole time frame think is junk.

I would also like you to explain why (IYO) it was silly of me to feel like scumIZ was whiteknighting you and then think you were town/not scum with Iz?
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #4567 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:03 pm

Post by The Fonz »

Not caught up. Skimmed from last VC looking for votes.

Vote: Davesaz
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Post Post #4568 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:17 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

Can someone give me the TL:DR case on Dave?
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #4569 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:19 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 4563, AxleGreaser wrote:Apart from vote you recently is there something specific Tier has done that moved him up to one of your top two, most likely to flip scum?

Well for one, he's sheeping a bandwagon where NONE of the reasons make any sense and refusing to give any himself--unless you consider some really vague "I didn't like those first 30 posts.".

But its not I haven't previously suspected him.

First of all he was trying to get Boons to full claim on d1.

I also felt like this was scummy.

In post 3518, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 3463, TierShift wrote:1.Why is it so weird to want opinions on a scumread?

2.Anyway your associative act falls apart now that muffin flipped town.

1. I'm not a scumread.
2. Yes it does but it doesn't stop me from thinking that he's scum.

Why should I think Flubber is town?

I actually really hated this. I still felt like it was super strange that Flubber was asking Muffin his opinion on me. Apparently his reason was 'cause he was interested in why we had different reads on Boons but I don't see how asking Muffin his opinion on makes any sense in the context of why.

but thats just the stuff in my ISO. I might ISO later, idk.

vote:Tier


TOWN TO ME!
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #4570 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:25 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 4565, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 4557, AxleGreaser wrote:You asked, a vague question about a not exactly specified event.

no. Its not vauge, its what happened.


Th bit i cur out is not the vague question.

This was the vague question
Spoiler: The vague question
In post 4426, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 4421, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 4418, AxleGreaser wrote:

I thought you were scummy for claiming that Boons contradicted himself, when he didn't. Your reaction was to start questioning me and treating me like a scum read, which is the definition of a OMGUS attack. Yes, I know that OMGUS does come from town but it also comes from scum and I think its hard to tell the difference between the two. IF you called someone scum and they attack you back, would you think they are scum or town?

Yes and no. As it depends on intent. I have developed strong town reads on people because they attacked me. (If they are town they have to try and work out my alignment somehow)
I have developed strong scum reads on people because they neither attacked me, nor worked out my alignment, but somehow just knew.
As for your point I frequently check out people who are scum reading me, one advantage of doing it at that time is they have no excuse to run away and not talk to me.

k. Explain what you think my intent was.


When?
[.........]


and it is vague because it did specify when you wanted me to comment on your intent.
It was vague becuase it appeared to be asking me about a time when you had been the
questioner
and i had been the
responder
and we had just been talking about how i would evaluate the scumminess of a responder.
I pointed out that discrepancy and you jump to "he LIED"

Now it is true that town make that kind of mistake (jump to wrong conclusions) all the time, scum tend to do it more as they are not looking for the truth of whetehr or not i am scummy but are looking to see if they can plausibly jump to "he LIED"
You jumping to that conclusion that is not supported by the facts looks a bit scummy to me.

Your earlier consistent pushes on players who you found PL material without them being your most likely to flip scum candidates, That speaks to me of an intent to find lynch today, not find scum.



You started calling me scummy for attacking you, that is EXACTLY what an OMGUS attack is. What exactly did you find scummy other than just being angry that I attacked you?

As i have never (IIRC) before actually said I dont really believe any piush i made on you was OMGUS.
and as we have still not sorted out your false claims about me lying.

changing the subject is not appropriate.

I mean after all you are 100% convinced I am scum based on
In post 4444, Nero Cain wrote:So, you wanna tell me

why you lied about never attacking me?
why you lied about me never suspecting Thor.

and why you never pushed me on d1 despite claiming that I'm doing the same thing today.

also why would town do any of these?


and I have shown the two crossed out ones to be literally false. And the authority you appealed to Thor, noticed you snipping post to make it look like i said things that were clearly not the intent of the post you snipped them from.

If your 100% case has substance you need to back those points up.

As for the third point. At no time did i claim everything you did yesterday is the same as everything you did today.
The differences that exist will be one of reasons, I responded differently. Another will be prioritisation of my time.
I already posted at least as many words and posts as is reasonable. (most people appear to think too many)
There will also, (as I recall it,) have been no time/space to get to you yesterday.
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Post Post #4571 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:39 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

Are you a Yates alt? This is like his play to a T. He'd whine about things and when proven wrong he'd keep arguing and ask me to quote and requote him...
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #4572 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:50 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 4571, Nero Cain wrote:Are you a Yates alt? This is like his play to a T. He'd whine about things and when proven wrong he'd keep arguing and ask me to quote and requote him...


given that I just showed you were wrong and you have just unvoted your 100% scum read...

I think you might be slightly more than gilding the lilly here...

and nope I am not the alt of any one. I played newbie from scratch /in ... ergo.

Spoiler: Ahh I see. it is slander

link to who yates was
Yates and all alts have been permabanned for secretly joining the same game with two accounts and lying repeatedly to site staff about his behavior.
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Post Post #4573 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:58 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

Going to respond to 4566?
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #4574 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:14 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 4570, AxleGreaser wrote:You jumping to that conclusion that is not supported by the facts looks a bit scummy to me.

scumhunting isn't about "facts". I felt like you were misrepresenting Boons. Do you think there's possible scum motivation in misrepresenting? If so then why was it scummy of me to see your misrep and assume you are scum?

In post 4570, AxleGreaser wrote:Your earlier consistent pushes on players who you found PL material without them being your most likely to flip scum candidates, That speaks to me of an intent to find lynch today, not find scum.

Who were my two early votes today? You and Flubber. Why are you pretending like that didn't happen?

In post 4570, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 4444, Nero Cain wrote:So, you wanna tell me

why you lied about never attacking me?
why you lied about me never suspecting Thor.

and why you never pushed me on d1 despite claiming that I'm doing the same thing today.

also why would town do any of these?


and I have shown the two crossed out ones to be literally false. And the authority you appealed to Thor, noticed you snipping post to make it look like i said things that were clearly not the intent of the post you snipped them from.

If your 100% case has substance you need to back those points up.

As for the third point. At no time did i claim everything you did yesterday is the same as everything you did today.
The differences that exist will be one of reasons, I responded differently. Another will be prioritisation of my time.
I already posted at least as many words and posts as is reasonable. (most people appear to think too many)
There will also, (as I recall it,) have been no time/space to get to you yesterday.


In post 2593, AxleGreaser wrote:Because frankly its making you look scummy, as making baseless insults that put people down and denigrate their opinions is a scummy way to argue a point.

^
that is you attacking me.
In post 4570, AxleGreaser wrote:You jumping to that conclusion that is not supported by the facts looks a bit scummy to me.

^
that is confirming you were attacking me.
In post 4570, AxleGreaser wrote:As for the third point. At no time did i claim everything you did yesterday is the same as everything you did today.

I was pushing Thor on d1 right? We agree with. ok...if I was pushing Thor on d1 why do you believe I should have stopped? Now yes, I did downgrade him 'cause I feel a ton of slots are scummier than him. IMO, I feel like its dishonest for you to say that I wasn't pushing Thor and was voting him d1. Why you didn't find that scummy is beyond me.

BUT THE TIME FRAME!

I admit that I missed that and I'm not quite sure when you first said that but it feels like a crutch. We are agreeing that I was pushing Thor on d1, why would I stop being suspicious of him? Town doesn't do that and your implied suggestion that town starts anew each day is all kinds of crazyness.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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