NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #4075 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:45 am

Post by Shiro »

In post 4071, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 4061, Shiro wrote:Although Gm said she doesnt even remember getting pushed by him


WAT.

Go read the thread an see if it happened.
Why are you trusting GM
and even if you trust GM as town, why trust the memory go read the thread. (right near the end of the day when I voted GM too.)

Well if the push was strong enough she should have been able to recall it no ?

Thor665 wrote:

In post 4055, The Fonz wrote:@Thor - GM is a town read. I'd prefer Josh. Beast has literally no votes. I'm not sure why I should compromise onto a
less
viable wagon. Give me 3 votes, and we'll talk.

Heck, get me 1 on Garmr and we'll talk. I'm working GM, not Beast - I thought that was obvious.


If I vote Garmr again would you consider voting him as well ?
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Post Post #4076 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:49 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 4075, Shiro wrote:If I vote Garmr again would you consider voting him as well ?

No, because;

1. You would be a sideways gain as they just lost you a little bit ago.

2. I would still town read the slot.
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Post Post #4077 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:58 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 4048, Aegor wrote:
Votecount 2.12


[5]
Thor665:
goodmorning, Izariael, reinoe, Flubbernugget, davesaz
[3]
Josh_B:
Scripten, AxleGreaser, Slandaar
[2]
Flubbernugget:
Nero Cain, The Fonz
[1]
Boonskiies:
T S O
[1]
davesaz:
TierShift
[1]
goodmorning:
Thor665
[1]
reinoe:
Boonskiies
[1]
Slandaar:
Shiro
[1]
The Fonz:
Josh_B

[1]
Not Voting:
beastcharizard

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

Day 2 deadline:
(expired on 2014-11-19 18:27:52)

Mod Notes

TierShift V/LA until Sunday
Boonskies, Nero Cain, T S O prodded.

So we have Boon, Nero, and TSO who are all just sucking at the game - though at least Boon has his claim to skate on.

We have the Thor derp wagon which is becoming weaker for...no apparent reason, I dunno, maybe people are noticing it is derp? Though Dave is back - shock.
The Garmr/Josh wagon is still desperately holding onto 2nd while *also* becoming weaker - again, shock.
A 2 vote wagon is sitting in solid 3rd place with FOnz acting like that means anything right now beyond derp.
6 wagons that can't get any support.
And Beast trying hard to suck worse than Nero, Boon, and TSO.

Deadline is in 4 days and we haven't even managed a claim yet.

The hell, people?
This is Day 1 except even more embarrassing.

Unvote: GM
Vote: Dave


There.
@Fonz - oooh, fear my equally powerful wagon on Dave - good thing you're so active that you'll get stuff done!

@Shiro - come join us on Dave, his actions read pretty fake to me - what about to you?
@Josh_B/Garmr wagon - you are noticing how Dave has been working every new wagon except yours, right? So if we want to go on the theory that your wagon is the most brilliant thing ever and people just aren't noticing - heck, sounds like a reason to flip Dave, because if he's scum than Garmr looks worse.
@Boonskies - vote Dave - it's vastly more useful than your current useless vote.
@TSO - vote Dave - it's vastly more useful than your current useless vote.
@Josh - you should be voting me, as you said. It's 4 days y'know. Really now.
@Thor wagon - I'm actually pushing harder for you guys to get votes on me than you are. Why do all of you fail at the basic concept of "I caught scum and want to lynch them"?
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Post Post #4078 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:07 am

Post by Shiro »

@Thor

Actually I never put much thought on dave cause I never felt strong on him either way

Why is he better than beast though ? I mean beast came in coincidentaly when mentioned voted and coincidentally right before he had to leave in order to sleep. I guess he also coincidentaly has come back.
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Post Post #4079 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:19 am

Post by Thor665 »

Beast sucks too, but Dave has more votes on him.
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Post Post #4080 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:20 am

Post by Thor665 »

Frankly, with the utter fail of people to do anything about them today;

Beast, TSO, and Nero are all optimal Vig targets.
They're also not bad targets for any SK who wants to pretend to be a Vig later.
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Post Post #4081 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:22 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

The JoshB(ex garmr) wagon looks like something scum will do anything to avoid it being flipped
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Post Post #4082 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:24 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 4079, Thor665 wrote:Beast sucks too, but Dave has more votes on him.

and I dont see
your reasons
for voting that wagon , except some cool kids popularity meme
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Post Post #4083 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:28 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 4082, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 4079, Thor665 wrote:Beast sucks too, but Dave has more votes on him.

and I dont see
your reasons
for voting that wagon , except some cool kids popularity meme

:facepalm:

Allow me to save us some time;

I presented my reasons when I analyzed my wagon at its peak.
You will now go and look at it and say 'those aren't reasons enough' ignoring that the way you and I make cases is drastically different.
You will write a long and boring post that I will skip past showing off your case on somebody and will have bullet points and colored words.
You will then ask me for a "real" case and I will refuse to make a case remotely resembling yours.

Where would you like to go from here now that we've had that conversation for the third time?
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Post Post #4084 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:37 am

Post by davesaz »

In post 4070, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 3957, davesaz wrote:
No, I'm arguing there is no possible way Garmr could be scum,
because of the continued discussion of Anen's effect on the Boon push. Based on my opinions about how scum play.

Scum would stop talking about Boon. Period. Scum Garmr would never again mention his push on Boon. Not even to defend against someone attacking him for it. The correct scum play is to say "what are you talking about, I dropped that ages ago when Boon soft claimed". The correct scum play is to say "well, Anen flipped town so there is no point in further discussion about whether that was a chainsaw". No, arguing with you about it shows explicit town motivation. Garmr was using Anen to argue that you, as scum, are beating the dead horse of Anen's influence on Garmr's Boon push.


In post 4046, davesaz wrote:
The Garmr slot might be scum,
but not for the reason you are pushing.
I am not town reading that slot. I might even be scum reading that slot.


In post 4053, davesaz wrote:
For me to vote Josh, someone other than Axle needs to convince me the slot is scummy,
without using the "Garmr contradiction" case as evidence.


Hey dave your position on the Garmr slot lately seems rather a lot inconsistent.
Explain this.
Especially who persuaded you to change your mind so fast?
and why.


Highlight the 2nd half of the first sentence of mine that you quoted, and you place the weight in the correct place. The comma doesn't belong which is a mistake I sometimes make in my technical writing as well. Sadly, I can't quote that for reference.

No, I'm arguing there is no possible way Garmr could be scum
because of the continued discussion of Anen's effect on the Boon push
. Based on my opinions about how scum play.
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Post Post #4085 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:52 am

Post by davesaz »

The way I'm reading this now, Thor, Axle, and Slandaar are all scum.

Thor has been "pushing" wagons on no evidence at all, and attacking anyone who questioned him about it.
Axle has been grinding at Garmr/Josh, and trying to refute people by discrediting them.
Slandaar has been WKing without doing real scum hunting. The Shiro "point a day" thing was nothing more than a way to appear busy without actually scum hunting.

Furthermore, Thor saw Boon claim a PR and get away scot free, so he did it too. At the time I thought that this, along with the steadfast GM vote for "uselessness" was crumbing cop or tracker. But then Thor refused to answer when I asked him about confidence. It's a fake claim, and we should lynch it.

Thor chose me as the one for his new OMGUS because I'm the only one of this sorry lot who is actually thinking about the cases that other people make and seeing the BS.
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Post Post #4086 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:32 am

Post by reinoe »

In post 4048, Aegor wrote:
Votecount 2.12


[5]
Thor665:
goodmorning, Izariael, reinoe, Flubbernugget, davesaz
[3]
Josh_B:
Scripten, AxleGreaser, Slandaar
[2]
Flubbernugget:
Nero Cain, The Fonz
[1]
Boonskiies:
T S O
[1]
davesaz:
TierShift
[1]
goodmorning:
Thor665
[1]
reinoe:
Boonskiies
[1]
Slandaar:
Shiro
[1]
The Fonz:
Josh_B

[1]
Not Voting:
beastcharizard

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

Day 2 deadline:
(expired on 2014-11-19 18:27:52)

Mod Notes

TierShift V/LA until Sunday
Boonskies, Nero Cain, T S O prodded.

Six vanity wagons!!! What a display of hubris!
Scum typically need to fabricate reasons for scumreads...

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Post Post #4087 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:33 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 4085, davesaz wrote:Furthermore, Thor saw Boon claim a PR and get away scot free, so he did it too. At the time I thought that this, along with the steadfast GM vote for "uselessness" was crumbing cop or tracker. But then Thor refused to answer when I asked him about confidence. It's a fake claim, and we should lynch it.

Yes, because when, as cop or tracker, I would open the day with a vote on Shiro, then move to you, and then shift to GM when I have a guilty.
That makes sense.
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Post Post #4088 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:34 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 4086, reinoe wrote:Six vanity wagons!!! What a display of hubris!

There's only five now.
You should be pushing the Thor wagon more.
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Post Post #4089 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:48 am

Post by reinoe »

In post 4088, Thor665 wrote:
In post 4086, reinoe wrote:Six vanity wagons!!! What a display of hubris!

There's only five now.
You should be pushing the Thor wagon more.

I already know the agony of trying to bang my head against the wall in the face of unexplained defiance from town. Plus many of the vanity wagons are lurksacks to boot.
Scum typically need to fabricate reasons for scumreads...

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Post Post #4090 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:49 am

Post by Thor665 »

So ignore them and pay attention to the 3 man wagon and the two 2 man wagons.
Your wagon on me is still the biggest, but currently I'm at L-4 which isn't exactly cause for pants-wetting fear last I checked.
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Post Post #4091 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:53 am

Post by Slandaar »

In post 4073, Shiro wrote:No I am saying this is the reason you presented

That's right.

It is not the reason you presented though. The reason you presented is Anen is town. They can both co-exist.
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Post Post #4092 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:15 am

Post by Thor665 »

@Slandaar - what's your read on Dave?

I have shown that he pushed a case on me while he had no idea of what the case was, got him to admit that and unvote me, and then he kind of slides back onto me because he thought I was pushing some cop thing when nothing I had said or done remotely suggested that I was. So he's proven as not reading the thread while pushing cases based on things he doens't understand and being okay with that - that's a pro-town lynch regardless and sounds like lazy scum to me. What's your read?
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Post Post #4093 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:55 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 4067, Slandaar wrote:I have played with PV like 10 times maybe more. No-one listened to me about that. My meta read was absolute. That is the most nonsense I have read in a long time.


I couldn't remember who had the meta read on PV, but I was BEGGING for whoever it was to explain it. Kind of how I also asked you to provide your own meta, and you didn't. :( (And then said you had).

In post 4074, Thor665 wrote:
In post 4055, The Fonz wrote:@Thor - GM is a town read. I'd prefer Josh. Beast has literally no votes. I'm not sure why I should compromise onto a
less
viable wagon. Give me 3 votes, and we'll talk.

Heck, get me 1 on Garmr and we'll talk. I'm working GM, not Beast - I thought that was obvious.


You asked me if I was willing to vote for you, GM, or Beast yet. I explained why I wasn't voting either of the first two any time soon, and not the third unless it had significant traction.

Also, there are three on the Garmr replacement as of the last VC.


In post 4069, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 4055, The Fonz wrote:Public Enemy No2. As in my second strongest scum read. I still feel your claim that you felt TSO unviable rings false. But meh. Like I said, when I have time for a proper post (sometime between 6-12 hrs from now - I just finished a 12hr nightshift).

well if you feel that for gawds sake do something about it.

There are a bunch of reasons for that play if you really want to know.


I've only got one vote, you know. It's more productive to push one of them than spread my already very limited time thinly between two.


Spoiler: Things you dont know which mean you cant have an accurate guess on how reasonable that one choice is
You dont know how sure I was TSO is scum d1. TSO is my D1 the alternative wagon was PereV vs Thor or Anen. All I have to be for certain is more sure TSO will flip scum (than the others),
and or be comparably likely to flip scum
and
is unlikely to start playing observably towny D2. TSO fullfiiled that second criteria in spades. He had already indicated strong desire not to be cooperative in his play style.
You can have some sense from your reading of things I actually said. I was trying to get the scummiest guy lynched... so don´t read too much.
But as no one, and I pretty much mean no one else was willing to even apply pressure(vote) on him D1, where is my magical faith that they will then on D2 consider lynching him with no more actual information come from.

No-one? Muffin was on TSO pretty late. But more to the point, two of the top four wagons from votecount 1.13 were dead, and one of them was on you. And the player TSO had been in a pretty bitter 1vs1 against had just been NKed and flipped town. Thor was literally the only player who had gotten more traction than TSO on day one who was still alive and available for you to vote. Also, the 'things I don't know' apply to literally anyone's vote. I don't know what anyone's
really
thinking. All I can do is apply the model of their mind that best fits the behaviour.

Not only that but if anyone had changed on D2 and suddenly become sure TSO was scum when they wouldnt budge D1, that would be scummy as fuck, and Id want to lynch anyone else that voted for TSO D2 without new evidence. So trying to get new vote on TSO without new info is actually I think self defeating.
(note for future games meta readers (and this games readers) this D1 was special with how little anyone pushed anything, so them flipping onto TSO D2 would be awful.)


Why would they have to be sure? That makes no sense.

You also have no valid estimate, of what I thought might eventuate if I stopped pushing so hard. I did indicate a desire to still see the reads(even with the flip), he indicted he had promised them to his hood.
If he lied and he hadn´t then him lying about what he said to his hood is for them to sort out. If he had promised an didnt deliver to them, that is again for them to sort out.
If I had stuck my big fat nose in that then TSO could again simply have effectively said ¨No I wont do it because axle pisses me off and hes stupid, and so I dont want to.¨ Childish and silly but it worked fine D1. and he has meta for pissing matches.... (but see muffins law about meta)


IDK what Muffin's law is (tell me, it seems interesting). Again, you're somehow faulting me for not being psychic. I don't know what your reason was, if you're town - but I know I can't think of one that makes sense. I can think of reasons it would be inconvenient as scum to keep pushing it.

Also go back and see who I first pointed out Anens previous game history too? It was Garmr.
I was always interested, and always thought his stated reasons were probably scummy, but my D1 plan had been to get TSOs reasons first then move on or at least talk to them both.
TSO stalled for so damn long I never got to also deal with Garmr D1.

So on D2 I did the productive thing and checked if anyone else was scummier.
You seem to be rather heavily implying you´d possibly vote TSO today? If so then you find him scummy, you push it. If he is scum, he cant pretend pre-existing bad blood with you.


No, I'm not implying that in any, way, shape or form, and I have NFI where you get that from.


Your problem with reading my seeming change in direction as town, is you have an over simplistic expectation of how I play the game and how tunnelled I am on TSO.
One of my std sigs is ÄxleNoTheoryToAbsurdToBeConsideredGreaser. I never get 100% tunnelled. The theory I am in the wrong tunnel is never to absurd.
also as that is one choice youd have to hav an accurate and strong feel for it to reasonably get to PE#2 status.


Nope. I just think that at any point when a player's top suspect from the previous day is still alive and indeed made to look more suspect by overnight events, and they switch off, I'd expect either continued pursuit, or an explanation of why that player is no longer a big suspect, or a comparative case on why that player is still scummy but the new suspect is scummier. But you just dropped it as if you'd never pushed it to begin with.

Thus I have problem with you.

You have claimed I am your PE#2

I have a huge fricken filter and long posts, on lots of stuff.
and the one scummy point you have to mention is a change in direction you have never really asked me about much?
FFS. All my reads have more substance than that.
If your reads are actually that thin do something about it ....
It looks like stalling.


Yeah, so I am skimming most of your posts because I find your syntax tortured and headachey to read, and your logic hard to follow. I think it's probably fair to say you are the no1 reason this game is unfun and hard to keep up with, and though I'm trying not to let this affect my view of your alignment, it certainly doesn't incline me to spend a ton of time on your horrible walls.

As I note, I haven't been pushing you today because I am mega-strapped for time so focussing on the slightly stronger case.

For a start,
take your hands out of your pockets and work out if that one tiny point in my great big filter is anything at all.


98% of what pretty much anyone writes isn't alignment-relevant. And it's not for you to decide if it's a big point or not. I think it's strong evidence that you don't have any kind of town thought process that makes any sense to me. Most of your explanations here seem like excuses rather than actual motives.

Anyway. The basic reason for not buying Garmr/Josh as a particular scum read (they're pretty null to me) is that I find Dave's rebuttal to your case more reasonable and easier to follow than the case itself. I'm not convinced you've proven anything other than that garmr wasn't the brightest bulb in the hardware store. Next post: the Flub case.
Last edited by Aegor on Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #4094 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:06 am

Post by goodmorning »

In post 4053, davesaz wrote:@ALL: What are we going to do if Thor claims something we can't/shouldn't lynch?

Pile on Fonz, Nero, or beast was my assumption. But Thor's not going to claim something we can't lynch.

In post 4089, reinoe wrote:
In post 4088, Thor665 wrote:
In post 4086, reinoe wrote:Six vanity wagons!!! What a display of hubris!

There's only five now.
You should be pushing the Thor wagon more.

I already know the agony of trying to bang my head against the wall in the face of unexplained defiance from town. Plus many of the vanity wagons are lurksacks to boot.

ilu even more now reinoe

@Fonz: you broke it. a lot.
EFFORT IS NOT INDICATIVE OF ALIGNMENT
LA during normal working and sleeping hours EST

Get to know a very pleasant AM.
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Post Post #4095 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:18 am

Post by The Fonz »

Flubber:

As I've noted before, I just feel like replacing in and attacking the biggest wagon is the percentage scum play where he replaces in. Note that he doesn't try to talk anyone off peregrine. Indeed, he tells Thor he's going after Peregrine for the
wrong
reasons. Note how this puts him into the perfect spot to let PV get lynched (and imply he kind of deserves it for contributing to the noise) then chain Thor today. (For a player who's main justification on replacing in is noise/signal, he's also pretty noisy, and fuels the Thor/PV flames while claiming he's against how Thor/PV is dominating the game).

Note today. Just check the difference between GM's obvious earnestness in pushing Thor and Flubber, who's not really engaging with opponents or neutrals, just snarking at them and throwing out occasional observations that are forgotten soon after. He throws out a load of one line criticisms of people's play, and doesn't really follow through on or triage any of them. There's a load of kinda fact-checky stuff, which seems illusion-of-contenty to me. He forgets about his Dave read for ages, then throws in a casual ''Oh, btw, he's still scum guys.'' note This is a read he's apparently had consistently since day one, but wtf has he done with it? Note the 'Leave Dave for tomorrow' stuff. So whether Thor would flip scum has no impact on Dave's alignment either way? Really?

And yeah, the contradiction is a contradiction, whether he calls it a throwaway comment or not. Pretty much everything he's said has been throwaway, disposable - so if I ignored that, I'd have to ignore everything. Am I scum buddying town-Thor? Is Dave bussing, or going for the mislynch? His play isn't joined up. He just throws out comments.

TL/DR: It feels like by having Thor and GM wagons, it's just the people who disliked the PV push yesterday and the Thor push today scapegoating the most vocal/passionate advocate of each wagon, when I think it's more likely scum are more somewhere less prominent in either case. Flubber's 'Blame Thor AND Peregrine for NOISE' stuff feels scum-motivated.
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Post Post #4096 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:26 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 4095, The Fonz wrote:TL/DR: It feels like by having Thor and GM wagons, it's just the people who disliked the PV push yesterday and the Thor push today scapegoating the most vocal/passionate advocate of each wagon, when I think it's more likely scum are more somewhere less prominent in either case. Flubber's 'Blame Thor AND Peregrine for NOISE' stuff feels scum-motivated.

Though there hasn't been a GM wagon, really. The biggest it got was...three? It definitely made two.
Does that affect this read?
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Post Post #4097 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:32 am

Post by The Fonz »

Hey, SHIRO -you're on a vanity wagon yet active. Rank in terms of lynch desirability:

Thor
Flub
Josh

Thanks.
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Post Post #4098 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:37 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 4096, Thor665 wrote:
In post 4095, The Fonz wrote:TL/DR: It feels like by having Thor and GM wagons, it's just the people who disliked the PV push yesterday and the Thor push today scapegoating the most vocal/passionate advocate of each wagon, when I think it's more likely scum are more somewhere less prominent in either case. Flubber's 'Blame Thor AND Peregrine for NOISE' stuff feels scum-motivated.

Though there hasn't been a GM wagon, really. The biggest it got was...three? It definitely made two.
Does that affect this read?


Nope. It probably means I should have been less passive aggressive and directed it straight at you, tho.

That said, 3 in the context of this game of vanity wagons is quite a big wagon, relatively. I feel that GM is the worst wagon of the Thorwagoners.
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Post Post #4099 (ISO) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:48 am

Post by Izariael »

I'm removing Fonz from my lynch pool... I'm actually enjoying the brain morsels he's served us to gnaw on.
I have the comprehensive ability of a vegetable.
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