NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #3875 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:48 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

This post is made in response to the thread state at the time it was made.

In post 3843, Thor665 wrote:So...could you provide me a link to any of those or no?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?s ... r_id=24574

I can provide this link, as it only comes back here?

In post 3843, Thor665 wrote:It has votes, but it has no traction. Currently your wagon mates are Slandaar (who is not pushing the wagon at all) Scripten (who is a lurksack) and Shiro (who, again, is not pushing it at all).


interesting definition
At the end of D1, You rate yoursefl as "about the only player who tried during Day 1." which tells me you thought your wagon had no traction (no one pushing it except you all day)

Up until recently the only wagon with much traction to day was the one on you. Fortunately I don't regard your wagon having traction as being scum indicative.


Free hint - you lurksacks are sitting on a useless wagon. Why? WHat are you accomplishing down there? Why not vote me or GM?


And if they hop on the GM wagon but font push it that will be just fine and not a waste.

You actually think you are
Thor
(god of thunder), dont you?

Free Hint- I think less of your opinions than you claim to.
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Post Post #3876 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:53 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3869, Aegor wrote:
Josh_B replaces Garmr, effective immediately.


Hi Josh,

Do something towny.
I have been scum reading your predecessor in the slot a lot.
If I am wrong its me and him thing, you are not him.

Do something towny.
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Post Post #3877 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:57 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3846, Shiro wrote:
@MOD Didnt TSO say he is staying after all ?


@mod
but now he's up to being prodded?
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Post Post #3878 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:17 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3849, Thor665 wrote:Did you ever do anything of the sort in a completed game?


trying to come at this a different way.
@Dave

Can you link to a completed game on site where you got angriest?
Doesn't have to be on the same topic. Just pissed off.
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Post Post #3879 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:37 pm

Post by Josh_B »

In post 3873, Scripten wrote:Welcome to the game Josh!

Sorry you had to replace into a scum slot. :( Who're your scumbuddies?


I wish I could have been that lucky this game. Fill me in on what's happened so far, please.
About WIFOM: Sometimes I just get thirsty and drink both glasses.
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Post Post #3880 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:53 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3836, davesaz wrote:Not liking the case is driven more by not liking the posting style. I have a hard time with trusting the 1000 word essays.

I find evaluating the argument more reliable. Coming from academia(?) Id expect you too as well.
In academia I'd call it "proof by intimidation".

and as you are coming from academia i have trouble believing the literal truth of
Dave: ", it's more like whether we can remember the 1st sentence of an Axle post (or sequence of posts) by the time we reach the end."
which would make it untruth used to make point in a backhanded way.

Dave: "and I'm not the only person who suggested that"
It is also a,
me too discredity tag onto another players post,
who you dont know the alignment of.
do you know the alignment of the other people who suggested it?
Appeal to numbers is bad idea in a game with N scum.

You are aware I assume that I am scum reading GM, and GM is discrediting/discounting me like that, and you are me tooing?

and if I can proof by intimidation you, then that sounds like a claim my ideas have substance.
Not the kind of thing the game needs less of then.
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Post Post #3881 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:26 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3879, Josh_B wrote:
In post 3873, Scripten wrote:Welcome to the game Josh!

Sorry you had to replace into a scum slot. :( Who're your scumbuddies?


I wish I could have been that lucky this game. Fill me in on what's happened so far, please.


Lots of GAK.
Spoiler: long:mainly relevant to JoshB
An Axle centric personally biased view.

Thor ran wagon on PereV day 1.
Not a lot else got real traction. PereV got to be the default Lynch.

Axle joined the game as replacement a little late.
I wondered about why everyone would be(was) standing around with hands in pockets.
Decided the Thor PereV thing was probably town v Town. (or should wait for more info)(dare scum not to kill either)
Looked elsewhere, the Aneninen wagon stood out as a bad scummy place to hide. (bad reasons, low risk easy vote)
GM parked a vanity wagon vote on Thor, and anyone who didn't like PereV as scum tended tended to vote Thor because (mumble mumble)

Lots of gak happened as I tried to prise information(reasons out of TSO).
I never got anywhere on TSO. he just stalled.
End of the day Shiro replaced in, and with the thus necessarily short filter voted PereV.
(after little discussion, that can look scummy if you squint)

PereV flipped town.

Also there are neighborhoods where people talk at night. Some people seem to think that is highly game relevant.

Thor chased Shiro D2. (badly)
Various people attacked thor.
Lots of the argument was rubbish (about how to count things that were not alignment indicative at all anyway.)
At least one person doing that (arguing about rubbish) was muffin (who has been modkilled and flipped town)

I have been chasing Garmr today (your slot)
TSO my D1 better than PereV wagon, is going nowhere because largely TSO is posting nothing.

So I would invite you to decide your slot(my scum #1 read) is scum but that would be silly.

I would suggest looking at my more recent interactions with GM (see below for second reason)(your slot thought I am scum!)
EBWOP in (one of several examples of Gm having reasonless reads) GM

is telling to me, as GM is reaching.



You could also check out the nero interaction ending here (follow links back to get context from both sides)

Also your slot was 85% certain I am scum, then voted Boon over me, then Thor over him.
So if your slot is indeed town, then you know one towny suspected them.
So you might want to check out if you agree. The above list of links ought help with me. (two for one deal)

Also interacting about the above list of links would be the fastest way to get me to change my mind, if you are town.

@TSO same would probably apply to you.

@Thor hey this guy is perfect candidate for you to try and get to vote your currently tractionless, OMGUS vanity wagon on GM.
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Post Post #3882 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:32 pm

Post by davesaz »

Proof by intimidation is reaching a difficult point, waving your hands, saying some intimidating words, followed by QED. I left that world behind long ago but am still fond of the term. ;-) It does not mean you intimidate me.

The age joke was a
joke
.

Your point was that Garmr said
Anen
dropped Boon? Garmr typoed that post the way I'm reading it. At a minimum something is wrong textually. It doesn't parse...
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Post Post #3883 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:38 pm

Post by beastcharizard »

Hi Josh.
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Post Post #3884 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:52 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3871, AxleGreaser wrote:*snipped for brevity - spoiler tags don't like my phone apparently.*

and even though it is not the final one, your reads indicate you are counting that as credible.

@Iz
please explain how credible you find it that your scum reads all clumped like that at any time during the day.


I find the semblance of a vote cluster to be completely irrelevant to how I got to those reads. I'm sure that if we were to take scumreads from every single person and colour which votes they found scummy that we could pair it up with a vote count at some point in time that makes it seem odd and/or unnatural. It completely misrepresents what I've observed in this game and seems a very blatant attempt to discredit those reads. Why has Slandaar only presented this evaluation on my reads only?

Furthermore, the semblance of a voting bloc
does not negate
any of those players from being scum, because
I am not making any assumptions about whether scum would or would not vote in unison.
I think that is a dangerous assumption to make and has zero impact on my reads.

I also don't scumread or townread players based on other players' votes.
I don't look at two players voting for the same person and say "hey, I found player B's vote scummy so player A is town" So while it is coincidental that at one point in time I found many of the votes on Pere to be scummy votes, it is just that: a coincidence. I have observed, questioned and interacted with players, making note of what I've found towny and what I've found scummy. Where their vote sits on a wagon is not important. How/Why it got on the wagon is.
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Post Post #3885 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:52 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3882, davesaz wrote:Proof by intimidation is reaching a difficult point, waving your hands, saying some intimidating words, followed by QED. I left that world behind long ago but am still fond of the term. ;-) It does not mean you intimidate me.

The age joke was a
joke
.

I fully get the joke about age, I make it regularly.

The other part of the joke, was charcterising my posts as entirely forgettable, I imagine due to lacking in substance or direction or something.



Your point was that Garmr said
Anen
dropped Boon? Garmr
typoed
that post the way I'm reading it. At a minimum something is wrong textually. It doesn't parse...


please state which post you are claiming garmr
typoed
. And what you claim he meant to say.

In post 2441, Garmr wrote:fuck It here it goes. What I found scummy was I didn't like the
he stopped my pressure on boon
at the time boon was a weak scum read and I wanted more reactions to get a feel for him. Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand. I believe he had to try and discredit because I don't think he was expecting to be questioned on 418 becuase he just labeled me as scum because of my reasoning for voting boon and getting lost early in the game, if he is going to label me as scum for my reasoning he should be able to show why it's flawed and then explain the scum motivation behind my post.


he made the point I am discussing several times.
Spoiler: why i kept checking
Garmr originally claimed boonksiies is not boonskiies is not even a point. And its not aclearly expressed point so I needed to be sure garmr understoiod it and still discounted it. and still claimed he held his views about Anen stopping the pressure on Boon, when no such thing can have happened according to Garmrs own exvaluation.
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Post Post #3886 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:05 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3884, Izariael wrote:Where their vote sits on a wagon is not important. How/Why it got on the wagon is.


largely and mainly I agree that VCA tends to suck. (especially when I see others use it)

In evaluating how and why payers votes got on a wagon, I consider not only what their stated towny reasons are, but also what their plausible scummy ones are.
(somewhere to hide, starting a counter wagon, choosing low hanging fruit, purposefully not choosing low hanging yet scummy fruit... blah blah.. unto WIFOM)

So much of the scum team being committed to the PereV wagon, all near the front, seems like thing I have observed scum to habitually avoid.
Have you seen it happen before much?

Noto only checking does the vote make towny sense, but does it make sense as a scum's vote.
So the how and why a scum vote might have been placed on the wagon is also important.
Pushing the PereV wagon would be risky choice for most scum them all piling on seems wrong headed, and thus unlikely.

True if all the other evidence points that way then sure.

I don't see that (large preponderance of the evidence), not sure how you do.
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Post Post #3887 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:09 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3886, AxleGreaser wrote:So much of the scum team being committed to the PereV wagon, all near the front, seems like thing I have observed scum to habitually avoid.
Have you seen it happen before much?


I have not in my experience here on mafiascum, but I do not find it enough of an impossibility as to discount it completely. Perhaps it would be effective to do so *because* it is so seldom seen (if ever?)
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Post Post #3888 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:18 pm

Post by Flubbernugget »

In post 3850, The Fonz wrote:

In post 3740, Flubbernugget wrote:Maybe Fonz is buddying Thor because he borrowed Thor's goalposts.


DIESCUMDIE

I mean, seriously. I can spot an attempt to scapegoat when I see one.

Also, this line of reasoning would IMPLY THOR IS TOWN, wouldn't it? So why are you still voting Thor?

Oh, right.

People, vote Flubber.

In post 3739, Flubbernugget wrote:
In post 3712, The Fonz wrote:
In post 3544, Flubbernugget wrote:The real question is why the fonz is defending all of Thor's derp.


OH HAI disguised OMGUS.

It's because the case on Thor looks exactly like cases on me when I'm town.


I didn't realize I was voting for you.


The post is an OMGUS attack. Attacking someone in an OMGUS way doesn't necessarily require a vote. Surely, surely, you're not this stupid.



Sooo yeah you're either shifting the goalposts or you've gotten used to what it smells like to have your head up your ass.
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Post Post #3889 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:19 pm

Post by Flubbernugget »

Slandar replaces my dave scumread.
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Post Post #3890 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:22 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3887, Izariael wrote:
In post 3886, AxleGreaser wrote:So much of the scum team being committed to the PereV wagon, all near the front, seems like thing I have observed scum to habitually avoid.
Have you seen it happen before much?


I have not in my experience here on mafiascum, but I do not find it enough of an impossibility as to discount it completely. Perhaps it would be effective to do so *because* it is so seldom seen (if ever?)


no, I agree not discount it completely (not asking you to use black and white logic and effectively modconfirm it out)
it, the clumping of votes, is however evidence of some weight that your read list is probably/possibly wonky somewhere.

so the point that your scum read list has problem (vs that vote count in ) is valid.
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Post Post #3891 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:30 pm

Post by Izariael »

Again though, I don't recall having claimed that I was 100% certain that those players were scum, lynch them all to win.

The cool thing about reads: they can evolve and adapt as events transpire. Up to the point that I posted that list, those were the players whose behavior I had found scummiest. Perhaps all of them are town, or conversely, all of them are scum. I don't have those answers at this time. All I have said is that those players were topping my list for scum at that time.
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Post Post #3892 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:36 pm

Post by Izariael »

This whole point about my read list is looking like "well surely at least one of those reads must be wrong, so you're faking it" which seems very silly to me. If that's the case, then anyone who scumread Pere yesterday must have been faking it because one of their reada was clearly wrong. Or anyone scumreading Egg, Muffin or Aneninen. We should quickly tarnish their credibility for having an incorrect read on their readlist.
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Post Post #3893 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:42 pm

Post by Flubbernugget »

Was anybody scumreading egg?
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Post Post #3894 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:45 pm

Post by Scripten »

In post 3889, Flubbernugget wrote:Slandar replaces my dave scumread.


The post you quoted was from The Fonz and not Slandaar, btw.

And there might have been a scumread or two on Egg, but I don't remember any offhand.
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Post Post #3895 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:50 pm

Post by Flubbernugget »

Yes I know.

And slandar still replaces my dave scumread.
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Post Post #3896 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:06 pm

Post by davesaz »

In post 3885, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 3882, davesaz wrote:Proof by intimidation is reaching a difficult point, waving your hands, saying some intimidating words, followed by QED. I left that world behind long ago but am still fond of the term. ;-) It does not mean you intimidate me.

The age joke was a
joke
.

I fully get the joke about age, I make it regularly.

The other part of the joke, was charcterising my posts as entirely forgettable, I imagine due to lacking in substance or direction or something.

The other part of the joke was characterizing your posts as
long
.
Did you understand what the corrected definition of
proof by intimidation
means?


Your point was that Garmr said
Anen
dropped Boon? Garmr
typoed
that post the way I'm reading it. At a minimum something is wrong textually. It doesn't parse...


please state which post you are claiming garmr
typoed
. And what you claim he meant to say.

It's the same post you quote below. I'm claiming I don't know what he really meant to say because it does not parse correctly as English, or at least there is not a single unambiguous parse for it.

In post 2441, Garmr wrote:fuck It here it goes. What I found scummy was I didn't like the
he stopped my pressure on boon
at the time boon was a weak scum read and I wanted more reactions to get a feel for him. Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand. I believe he had to try and discredit because I don't think he was expecting to be questioned on 418 becuase he just labeled me as scum because of my reasoning for voting boon and getting lost early in the game, if he is going to label me as scum for my reasoning he should be able to show why it's flawed and then explain the scum motivation behind my post.


he made the point I am discussing several times.


I assume you're referring strictly to the part in a different color. Let's look at the two sentences.

What I found scummy was I didn't like the
he stopped my pressure on boon
at the time boon was a weak scum read and I wanted more reactions to get a feel for him. Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand.


Is Garmr trying to quote Anen? Is the part you marked with a color a quote? So Anen said "he (Garmr) stopped my (Anen) pressure on boon"? Or is Garmr missing a word between "like" and "the", such as "I didn't like the way he (Anen) stopped my (Garmr) pressure on boon"?
From the text alone
, it is not clear which of these meanings is the correct one. He and my are both pronouns without referents, as written. It is not even clear to me how you are interpreting it. So instead of quoting it yet again, and coloring a phrase pink, tell me in your own words what you think the whole sentence means. Not just the hilighted part, but the whole sentence. With inserted referents for all the pronouns.

Now, let's take the 2nd sentence. Which case do you think Garmr is referring to here? Garmr's case on Boon? At this point in time, Garmr is not pursuing a case on Boon, and hasn't for about 1000 posts IIRC. Is Garmr pursuing a case on Anen at that time? Could Garmr be complaining about Anen's efforts to defend against Garmr? If that is a possible meaning for this sentence, then it is the more likely meaning, in my opinion.
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Post Post #3897 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:10 pm

Post by goodmorning »

In post 3879, Josh_B wrote:I wish I could have been that lucky this game. Fill me in on what's happened so far, please.

It's me/Izariael/reinoe vs Axle/Thor/Slandaar/Fonz. You should vote Thor. Axle's posts are nearly unreadable, which is why I've stopped reading them. Slandaar is the most likely of the three coherent ones to be Town. Fonz is useless. reinoe is definitely Town.

less important: TSO is Town, Shiro is Town, Tier is odd, boon and beast and maybe scripten are useless. boon claimed 2-shot bp. Nero is prob scum because i keep forgetting his existence. flubber and dave both sound like voices of relative reason which is nice. There are some Neighbourhoods, idr what they are off the top of my head but Boon and Izariael are in mine, Anen was, and Shiro too.
Then there's a 4-man one with TSO I think? And a 3-man which was Egg, Pere, Thor.

I am anxious to see your opinion on the game though.
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Post Post #3898 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:13 pm

Post by davesaz »

@Axle: With a replacement in the slot, is it even fruitful to argue this? We're never going to get a clarification from Garmr anyway. If the whole point is to determine my alignment by seeing what I'll do to defend that slot, what you're going to get is likely to be some disagreement about how the posts should be read, and questions about your interpretations of the posts. I don't think comparing our relative language and logic skills is a good use of time or alignment indicative.
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Post Post #3899 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:13 pm

Post by davesaz »

@Axle: With a replacement in the slot, is it even fruitful to argue this? We're never going to get a clarification from Garmr anyway. If the whole point is to determine my alignment by seeing what I'll do to defend that slot, what you're going to get is likely to be some disagreement about how the posts should be read, and questions about your interpretations of the posts. I don't think comparing our relative language and logic skills is a good use of time or alignment indicative.
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