NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Izariael
Izariael
Goon
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Izariael
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Joined: July 27, 2014
Location: Narnia

Post Post #3700 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:21 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3681, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3680, Thor665 wrote:he then claimed I "moved the goalposts to quantity"

He claimed I moved to "quality"

So Muffin claimed I had meant quantity and moved to quality.
You claim I started at quality and moved to quantity.

I am pretty sure one of you is insane.
Sort it out and get back to me.


Here, sorted: Your read on Shiro was terrible. When called out on it by Shiro you adapted to justify your vote sitting on her. When called out on the new reasoning by Muffin, you began a debate of semantics. Your argument changed several times through the day and both gm and Muffin are justified in questioning you for doing so, regardless of whatever "quality/quantity" arguments any of you three are using to argue for or against it.

Behold, the supreme towniness of Day 2 Thor (sarcasm):


#1)
The naked vote. Really makes you feel like you understand why Thor suspects Shiro, right?
In post 2556, Thor665 wrote:
Vote: Shiro

#2)
Eventually a reason is pried out of him. It's pretty lackluster given what we saw from Day 1 Thor.
In post 2696, Thor665 wrote:Shiro is scum due to gut and wagon placement.

#3)
He refuses to elaborate on
why
Shiro's wagon placement is scummy, and instead just redirects the question back without an answer:
In post 3028, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2971, Shiro wrote:@thor Hey since axl bored you and you didn't answer him mind answering to Shiro why the placement on the Pere wagon was scummy ?

Do you think that your wagon placement looks townish or null?

#4)
Questions Tier's activity-based townread on Shiro, implying that her recent activity at that point was the result of scum feeling pressured. When corrected by Shiro, he then finds other reasons to justify his vote. When that new reasoning is discounted by Shiro (who explained her actions) and again by Muffin (who attests to thinking the actions were from a genuine town mind-set), Thor then makes what is a key statement in events to follow:
In post 3075, Thor665 wrote:So you are townreading Shiro because Shiro is starting to look like she's doing "anything at all"?
In post 3079, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3077, TierShift wrote:yeah, thor, you got that.

I would suggest that Shiro's activity can be directly connected to pressure on her.

Do you agree/disagree?
If you agree - why is that still a town read?

If you disagree - what do you see as the trigger for her current activity compared to the last week or two of Day 1?
In post 3082, Shiro wrote:Thor....I replaced in 23/10 caught up at 25/10 Deadline was at 27/10 whichs weeks of day 1 do you speak of that I stayed silent ???
In post 3083, Thor665 wrote:
I'm mixing you up with someone else in my head, clearly.

That said. You did take forever to say anything of worth - and then voted Pere out of the blue with no justification despite making a wall on Anen. That feels wonky to me.
In post 3087, Shiro wrote:@Thor....I caught up at 25/10 I started posting at 25/10

Wall of text about Anen at 26/10

If that is awfully long then I am sorry for not meeting your replace in on 92page long game timing standars.

As for the vote on Pere. Axl and re read on Anen ISO made me stop feeling off about Anen thus I found Pere the best option between You,Anen and Pere.
In post 3088, Shiro wrote:Who did u even mix me up with ?
In post 3089, Muffin wrote:
In post 3083, Thor665 wrote:I'm mixing you up with someone else in my head, clearly.

That said. You did take forever to say anything of worth - and then voted Pere out of the blue with no justification despite making a wall on Anen. That feels wonky to me.

Cute misrep.

Here's the "wall" in question, about Anen. I note without surprise that the first line explicitly shows Shiro's diminishing scumread on Anen. Given the proximity of deadline I do not see any internal inconsistency there.

Contrarily, you're now stretching the facts to fit your vote.
In post 3091, Thor665 wrote:@Axle - so you cannot state a read on Shiro then?

@Shiro -
some other lurksack
.

@Muffin - no, actually, there isn't a misrep there. Look at how many thoughts were posted about Anen. Then look at the same for Pere. Then look at the vote. That reads legit to you?

#5)
Muffin does exactly what Thor asks of him :up: in the most literal sense possible: he goes to Shiro's ISO, uses CTRL+F to search for "Anen" and "Pere" and notes the number of references. It's a valid interpretation, and Muffin's findings discount Thor's statement.
Muffin shouldn't have had to waste his time dredging up oodles of information to discount a case if no effort was made to present the facts in the first place.
Rather than clarifying his statement in 3091 as he supposedly intended it to be read (),
Thor instead relies on a series of discredits, word manipulations and deflections to defend his statement.

In post 3099, Muffin wrote:
In post 3088, Shiro wrote:Who did u even mix me up with ?

In post 3091, Thor665 wrote:@Shiro - some other lurksack.
In other words, you can't think of someone you can pin it on?

@Muffin - no, actually, there isn't a misrep there. Look at how many thoughts were posted about Anen. Then look at the same for Pere. Then look at the vote. That reads legit to you?

Prior to #2558, instances of "pere" in Shiro's ISO: 8
instances of "anen" in Shiro's ISO for the same period: 7

Seems like a misrep to me, bud. Flow of Shiro's thoughts are evident to me, and seem reasonable for someone w a town mindset.

You're doing a really bad job selling Shiroscum.
In post 3101, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3099, Muffin wrote:Prior to #2558, instances of "pere" in Shiro's ISO: 8
instances of "anen" in Shiro's ISO for the same period: 7

:neutral:
Wow.
In post 3107, Muffin wrote:
In post 3101, Thor665 wrote:Wow.


Is this you capitulating, and accepting that your rationale for Shiro being scum is entirely false? Or is this you expressing disbelief that I have twice shown you being dishonest in your characterizations of Shiro?
In post 3108, Thor665 wrote:
I find it dishonest of you to act like a number of name mentions qualifies the same as degree of mention.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note that this is the statement that Muffin says shifts the goalposts from quantity to quality
:up: :up: :up:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 3110, Muffin wrote:
In post 3108, Thor665 wrote:I find it dishonest of you to act like a number of name mentions qualifies the same as degree of mention.

Oh so now the valid metric is "Thor's qualitative, arbitrary scale describing the degree to which someone was mentioned"?
In post 3117, Muffin wrote:Time to make gm happy I guess?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: thor
In post 3126, Thor665 wrote:
What do you think the correct scale is then and/or what I meant?
Specifically and only number of times a name was mentioned?
Because that is either incredibly stupid or incredibly dishonest of you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
INTERLUDE: Consider the above comment, and how it aims to discredit Muffin for using CTRL+F to search Shiro's iso for the name mentions. Consider that Thor made no attempt here or initially to defend his statement with evidence. Now consider the following statement as said by Thor:
In post 2909, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2898, AxleGreaser wrote:
@Thor
please indicate which post by dave made you town read Boon?

Go to his iso, use Ctrl+F for 'Boon' find a post where he's talking about Boon
and his claim and how he doesn't see it as a valid scum move.
That would be the post.
You now have the exact method I would use to find it - so you can do it just as easily as I can, and I don't see any reason to spend time doing the hunt for you.

Now consider why Thor would be discrediting Muffin for finding information in a literal and sensible manner, when he himself has already endorsed doing so. True, the circumstances are not identical, however they are very similar - a player was asked to present information and sought to do so in an efficient manner.
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In post 3127, Muffin wrote:Prior to and including the vote in question:
**SNIP**

So, yeah. 3 posts seem to be mostly about pere, and 4 mostly about anen, including one that is sort of about both of them. Not to mention if you go through them chronologically there is a clear progression of reads. Do you want to try your pathetically-bad argument again?

In before Thor just restates the same argument ignoring the factual evidence that he is full of shit.
In before "yeah but it's the QUALITY of the mentions, on some subjective scale it's impossible to argue against because I just made it up"
In post 3128, Muffin wrote:
In post 3126, Thor665 wrote:What do you think the correct scale is then and/or what I meant?
Specifically and only number of times a name was mentioned?
Because that is either incredibly stupid or incredibly dishonest of you.


First you spoke of the number of mentions:
In post 3091, Thor665 wrote:Look at how many thoughts were posted about Anen. Then look at the same for Pere.


Then I did a quick ctrl+f and saw that mentions were roughly on par.

After that you decided that no, even though you said "look at how many thoughts were posted", you didn't mean quantity. What you meant by "how many" was in fact a meaningless, qualitative "the degree to which they were mentioned":
In post 3108, Thor665 wrote:I find it dishonest of you to act like a number of name mentions qualifies the same as degree of mention.
In post 3129, Thor665 wrote:
So when I said 'thoughts' you went with 'names' and decided that was legit.


Your Pere quotes are pretty heavily padded out with conversation about Thor and you know it.
Back up this gak some more please.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note that once again, instead of clarifying his original statement AS HE SUPPOSEDLY INTENDED IT TO BE READ, he puts the onus on Muffin to once again go back and dredge up information while he himself presents
nothing
.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 3130, Muffin wrote:
In post 3129, Thor665 wrote:So when I said 'thoughts' you went with 'names' and decided that was legit.
At first perhaps. I then went and did it your way. You're still full of shit.

Your Pere quotes are pretty heavily padded out with conversation about Thor and you know it.
Hmmm, you're saying it's the quality of the mentions that matters now? I'm pretty sure I saw that mentioned somewhere already...
Muffin wrote:In before "yeah but it's the QUALITY of the mentions, on some subjective scale it's impossible to argue against because I just made it up"
In post 3131, Muffin wrote:
In post 3129, Thor665 wrote:Back up this gak some more please.

Says the guy voting an obvtown newbie.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
FUN FACT: Tier steps in and offers his input:
In post 3146, TierShift wrote:
In post 3129, Thor665 wrote:So when I said 'thoughts' you went with 'names' and decided that was legit.

Your Pere quotes are pretty heavily padded out with conversation about Thor and you know it.
Back up this gak some more please.

Right, this is not only factually wrong, but an awful defence to muffin's points as well.

Back to the show.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 3159, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3130, Muffin wrote:
Your Pere quotes are pretty heavily padded out with conversation about Thor and you know it.
Hmmm, you're saying it's the quality of the mentions that matters now? I'm pretty sure I saw that mentioned somewhere already...
Muffin wrote:In before "yeah but it's the QUALITY of the mentions, on some subjective scale it's impossible to argue against because I just made it up"

How is my comment about quality?
I'm saying some of the quotes you provided are "padded out" (i.e. made larger seeming) by conversation about me.
That appears to be directly related to size - or quantity - moreso than quality.
How am I wrong here and am making a comment about quality?
In post 3166, Muffin wrote:
In post 3159, Thor665 wrote:I'm saying some of the quotes you provided are "padded out" (i.e. made larger seeming) by conversation about me.

They're direct quotes, I haven't padded anything.

If you think my analysis is incorrect, feel free to do your own and show me the error of my ways. I'm open to being convinced, but somehow I think you'll just keep going "NUH UH" instead of doing anything useful.
In post 3182, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3166, Muffin wrote:
If you think my analysis is incorrect, feel free to do your own and show me the error of my ways.
I'm open to being convinced, but somehow I think you'll just keep going "NUH UH" instead of doing anything useful.

No
- it's a valid question from my part. Where do you think I went with 'quality' as a shift there?
You claimed I did.
Where did I and how?


I didn't.
At all.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In case it isn't clear: THOR IS VERY DIRECTLY REFUSING TO PRESENT EVIDENCE OR CLARIFY THE MISUNDERSTANDING. HE HAS PUT ALL OF THE BURDEN OF THIS DEBATE ON MUFFIN AND HAS PRESENTED
NOTHING
OF FACT TO SUPPORT HIS ARGUMENTS ANYWHERE IN THIS DISCUSSION.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 3187, Muffin wrote:
Thrice you've disagreed with the analysis I did. Stop dodging it. If you think I'm wrong or misrepresenting you, show me Shiro's posts the way I ought to have seen them.
In post 3188, Muffin wrote:It should be obvious the bit about "quality" was paraphrasing.

First you said the number of name mentions was not sufficient. Then you said I misrepresented the posts, and something something the degree of mentions.

So show me the right way to interpret those posts.

If you don't, it's because you can't.
In post 3191, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3187, Muffin wrote:Thrice you've disagreed with the analysis I did. Stop dodging it. If you think I'm wrong or misrepresenting you, show me Shiro's posts the way I ought to have seen them.

That's not what I'm disagreeing on.

YOU claimed I had asserted a quality instead of quantity - being a shift from my original statement.
I am asking YOU to back that up.
I can't prove something you said that I think is made up - that's not a valid thing to ask me to do.
Unless this is admission you're making gak up? Is that what this is? I can work with that.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, a deflection. Muffin had already presented what he felt was the shift from quantity to quality (3110 and 3128 :up: :up: :up: )
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 3193, Thor665 wrote:
:neutral:

This is starting to sound more and more like 'made up' to me.


So the quantity thing - how was that a paraphrase?
Like, specifically - how did you even get that? I said nothing even close to that.
In post 3194, Muffin wrote:
You can't do it, can you? You can't show why my interpretation of Shiro's posts is wrong. You can't show what a "proper" interpretation of them is.


Gee, why not, Thor?
In post 3195, Thor665 wrote:The quality over quantity thing.
I did say something that it is easy to take as quantity - but you then accused me of shifting to quality and changing the goalposts.
That was made up gak on your part - T/F?
In post 3196, Thor665 wrote:No piss off, dude.
I can back up what I said.


I want you to back up what you're CLAIMING I said when you attacked me over it.
In post 3197, Thor665 wrote:Like, back up how you translated that.
You're all in a huff about how I'm translating Shiro - yet you're making up things I said while doing it and your big gripe with me is that and that you disagree.

Those issues are light years apart.
You need to back up what you said.
In post 3198, Muffin wrote:I tried twice to look at quantity. You shot it down both times. Flimsily. So if it's not the two ways I've tried to show it quantitatively, and it's not qualitatively,
then why can't you show evidence to back up your statements about Shiro
?

Why not?
In post 3199, Muffin wrote:
In post 3196, Thor665 wrote:No piss off, dude.
I can back up what I said.

Obviously you can't, or you'd have done it already.
In post 3202, Thor665 wrote:
Spoiler: shortened for the long-lost sense of brevity
In post 3198, Muffin wrote:I tried twice to look at quantity. You shot it down both times. Flimsily. So if it's not the two ways I've tried to show it quantitatively, and it's not qualitatively, then why can't you show evidence to back up your statements about Shiro?

Why not?

#6)
ENTER THE MACHINE OF THINLY-VEILED OMGUS:
In post 3202, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3198, Muffin wrote:I tried twice to look at quantity. You shot it down both times. Flimsily. So if it's not the two ways I've tried to show it quantitatively, and it's not qualitatively, then why can't you show evidence to back up your statements about Shiro?

Why not?

Stop dicking around with me.

I made a statement about amount.

You translated that to "number of times a name is mentioned"

Which - c'mon, dude, are you serious? No - tthat is obvious bull-hookey on your part.

Then, when I point that out - you shift to "percentage of posts...but I'll just count posts where the name is mentioned and pay no attention to the amount that each is actually discussed"

Again - what the heck? Why are you playing word games? You know that's not what I meant and are dicking around.

When I call you on THAT we go into this game where you claim I changed the goalposts to "quality".
Except I never did.

STOP PLAYING SMURF FACED GAMES.

Why are you doing this?
It is scummy, stupid, and annoying.
In post 3203, Thor665 wrote:
Vote: muffin


I'll invote when you start talking like town and not like a word game scum feeb.
In post 3204, Muffin wrote:
In post 3203, Thor665 wrote:I got called out when I tried to push a completely weak-ass case on a newbie obvtown lurker, and now I'm feeling cornered so I'm voting the guy who called me on my bully tactics

ok
In post 3205, Thor665 wrote:
No - don't dodge that gak.

Respond to me with an actual response.


You can call me scum, but talk straight to me if you can.
In post 3206, Muffin wrote:Thor: "I can back up what I said"
Muffin: "lol do it then, show me why I'm wrong"
Thor: "no, I'll just vote you instead and pretend to be angry"
In post 3207, Thor665 wrote:
It's funny that you're accussing me of dodging yet are unable to talk to me.


And by funny I mean stupid.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Thor, remember all those times you failed to clarify or present information that could substantiate your presented views? Remember all those times you were asked by Muffin to do so and outright refused or deflected? I guess not. It's okay, I remembered it for you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 3208, Thor665 wrote:I'm not stuttering here - I expressed my issue and thoughts VERY clearly.
Yet you can't handle them?

BullSmurf.

You're faking.
In post 3212, Muffin wrote:*snip* MUFFIN'S RECAP POST *snip*
In post 3213, Muffin wrote:
In post 3207, Thor665 wrote:It's funny that you're accussing me of dodging yet are unable to talk to me.

And by funny I mean stupid.

In post 3208, Thor665 wrote:I'm not stuttering here - I expressed my issue and thoughts VERY clearly.
Yet you can't handle them?

BullSmurf.

You're faking.

Sweetheart, if you think the way I've interpreted Shiro's posts is wrong, then you should show an analysis of Shiro's posts that points to scum.

You can't. Why not?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
FUN FACT: Let's poll the rest of the town? What do they think?
In post 3217, Izariael wrote:
In post 3216, TierShift wrote:
In post 3209, T S O wrote:muffin you're really not winning this argument whatsoever.

are you even reading

This.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

#7)
BUT WAIT!! BYSTANDERS BEWARE, FOR THE WILD THORSCUM HAS CLAWS THAT WILL SNATCH AT YOU THROUGH THE CAGE WALLS. HE NEEDS TO STRAWMAN THE ARGUMENT AGAINST HIM BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE AND AGREEING WITH HIS OPPOSITION MAKES YOU THE PRIME CANDIDATE FOR THIS.

In post 3218, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3213, Muffin wrote:Sweetheart, if you think the way I've interpreted Shiro's posts is wrong, then you should show an analysis of Shiro's posts that points to scum.

You can't. Why not?

I've said I can.
That said - what I've ALSO said - is that I want you to explain the quality schtick.

Tell you what - you explain that (and, maybe, if I'm really lucky, toss in why you EVER thought I meant 'number of times a name was mentioned') and I'll explain my reasoning.
Deal?
Good.
Rock on. Blow me away.

In post 3214, TierShift wrote:mostly the 'I'm mixing you up with someone but I'm not telling who' is Smurf.

But yeah, grand summary.

Wait, so Tier

also;
@Iz

BOTH of you are totally happy with the way Muffin questioned this and how he skewed and turned wacky my statements?
Or - even funner - both of you think he didn't make any of my statements wacky and it's totally correct to think I meant 'number of times a name was mentioned' or that I also changed my story to quality over quantity when asked?

Both of you agree with that?

A simple y/n response is all I really want here.


@Tier - as to your original point. Let's say you're right. Let's say me not doing that is "messed up" in some manner.
How is it messed up in any way that matters?
Because, it's certainly not a scum plan.
So...what's the issue? The issue is that I'm not going back to find the name of a lurker I mistook as being Shiro? I mean, do you think that was an intentional misrep on my part? If so...weirdest scum plan ever. If not...then, as scum *or* town I could have made that mistake. So...yeah, what's your boggle?
In post 3219, Izariael wrote:Yes.
In post 3221, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3219, Izariael wrote:Yes.

Sweet - can you answer either of my questions to Muffin for him?

Show why he got that I had said quality over quantity?
Or show how it was reasonable for him to think that I meant "number of times a name was mentioned" as *any way sensible* as a means of measuring a metric of 'how much attention was paid a given slot'?

Since you agree with both, you clearly already understand both, yeah?
In post 3222, Thor665 wrote:
I'll even promise to answer Muffin's question to me in exchange for you answering for him.

Tier can also hop on this wagon - heck, if you answer first and Tier wants to sally in I'll even offer up a guess as to what Lurker I meant. It's an answer extravaganza!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notice that once again, while never once having provided answers, he now
suddenly wishes
to showcase them, but only if WE (the bystanders) answer to HIM (someone who has been debating this whole thing for PAGES now) first. Positively reeks of "please comment on this so I can latch onto YOUR comments to strawman this whole thing"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 3223, Izariael wrote:Oh... sorry. I thought you said a simple yes or no response would suffice. I must have misunderstood.
In post 3224, TierShift wrote:@Tier - as to your original point. Let's say you're right. Let's say me not doing that is "messed up" in some manner.
How is it messed up in any way that matters?
Because, it's certainly not a scum plan.
So...what's the issue? The issue is that I'm not going back to find the name of a lurker I mistook as being Shiro? I mean, do you think that was an intentional misrep on my part? If so...weirdest scum plan ever. If not...then, as scum *or* town I could have made that mistake. So...yeah, what's your boggle?
In post 3226, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3223, Izariael wrote:Oh... sorry. I thought you said a simple yes or no response would suffice. I must have misunderstood.

It did suffice - I just thought you would be happy to cram answers into my face in order to help out the guy you agree with in getting the answers he claims to want/need.

No?


In post 3224, TierShift wrote:
In post 3218, Thor665 wrote:BOTH of you are totally happy with the way Muffin questioned this and how he skewed and turned wacky my statements?

The quotes provided are pretty objective.

I don't think much is wrong with his questioning and even if I did, the ends justify the means.

What?
No - I'm dead serious.
I NEVER indicated ANYTHING to qualify his quality over quantity complaint.

I am flat out calling that a lie.
if it's objective - prove me wrong.

Also, seriously - when I made my original statement about the amount of discussion of Pere v. Anen YOU thought I honestly meant "number of times each of their names shows up in his iso"?
You thought that?
You took that as my point?

In post 3224, TierShift wrote:The boggle is that you're avoiding to show who you were talking about, with it being asked multiple times and there not being a reason to withhold the information from us.

I actually never said I wouldn't. I just saw no value in doing so.
I still don't.


In post 3224, TierShift wrote:And now getting all defensive and asserting I said that messing two players up was a scum plan, which I never did.

You did indicate there was an issue with it - I am being "defensive" and trying to understand that issue.
Clearly if it's an issue it's worth explaining to me and getting my reaction to i - so you're getting that. Now explain the issue - and we all win.

In post 3224, TierShift wrote:Ehy is there such a big stick up your butthole?

Because I feel Muffin is talking like pure scumSmurf and that two lackwits are agreeing with him.

Why is there such uneasiness to answer direct questions from me?


I mean, you guys both chimed in....now look at your backup responses.

Look at Muffin's for frack's sake.
That doesn't look screwy to you? He's flat out doubletalking to me and apparently you don't even notice? That is messed up because either it means I'm insane and he's talking normal - or the three of you are some combo of scum/not reading lackwits.
I'd actually be happier with the "Thor is insane" concept - but I would like to think people could just describe my insanity back to me in clear language and stop just huffing and puffing emptily instead.
In post 3228, Izariael wrote:VOTE: Thor

Here's the extent of my answer, Thor.
In post 3230, goodmorning wrote:
@Thor: If you weren't talking about the number of times they were discussed and you weren't talking about the quality of Shiro's discussion of them then what the hell were you talking about? And why are you so reluctant to tell us who you mixed Shiro up with? These are the problems Muffin has with you and I don't see why it is so apparently difficult for you to understand that.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
A newcomer arrives! :up: And she simplifies everything that has happened very concisely, I might add.
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In post 3232, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3228, Izariael wrote:VOTE: Thor

Here's the extent of my answer, Thor.

So - further emptiness and inability to discuss my devilishly difficult questions of "I think I never said the things you're saying I said"

Okay.
In post 3233, Izariael wrote:It's like your explanations to Muffin's questions in that regard, isn't it?
In post 3234, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3230, goodmorning wrote:@Thor: If you weren't talking about the number of times they were discussed and you weren't talking about the quality of Shiro's discussion of them then what the hell were you talking about?

...what?

What the sldjas;ofjsaojfoe;!

Okay, look, it is OBVIOUS that I was talking about the amount of the relative conversation about each person. i literally said as much.
That said, what Muffin did was to count the number of times a given name showed up. That doesn't take into account pronouns, and it *certainly* doesn't take into account the amount of time spent talking about either one.
Then he acted like ti did.

WHAT DO YOU THINK I MEANT?
And more importantly, do you think Muffin's approach remotely resembles sanity in asking me about it?

In post 3230, goodmorning wrote: And why are you so reluctant to tell us who you mixed Shiro up with? These are the problems Muffin has with you and I don't see why it is so apparently difficult for you to understand that.

I'm reluctant because;

1. I don't know off the top of my head and would need to do research.

2. I see no value in even having that info.

That's really it.
If someone could explain the value to me to justify the work I'd probably kvetch but would provide the answer. But...I really don't even get the issue.
These are *not* the problems Muffin has with me.
Look at what he's saying you narf.
In post 3235, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3233, Izariael wrote:It's like your explanations to Muffin's questions in that regard, isn't it?

I've offered to answer that if my questions are answered.
Frankly I've already answered his question he's just being dense about it.


Why not answer mine just to force me to answer yours?
I can't even get that promise from your side - are you offering it?[/size][/u][/b
In post 3236, Thor665 wrote:
@Iz - make me the offer, force me into the exchange of info. Call me on my bluff.
In post 3241, Izariael wrote:
In post 3236, Thor665 wrote:@Iz - make me the offer, force me into the exchange of info. Call me on my bluff.


I see no need to do so. I was merely an observer of the discussion at hand until I indicated that I liked Muffin's stance on it.
From my perspective, you were unable to refute Muffin's line of questioning, and are now resorting to pulling others into the discussion with the intent of straw-manning the entire accusation.
In post 3254, Muffin wrote:Holy shit Thor, are you really this dense or is it just an act?
In post 3202, Thor665 wrote:I made a statement about amount.

You translated that to "number of times a name is mentioned"
Your exact words were "look
how many
thoughts were posted about Anen". I interpreted that as "number of mentions". Obviously you felt that that is the wrong interpretation. Fine.

Then, when I point that out - you shift to "percentage of posts...but I'll just count posts where the name is mentioned and pay no attention to the amount that each is actually discussed"
I did not use the term "percentage". You pulled that out of your ass. I quoted every post in Shiro's ISO that I felt was about either Anen or Pere. If you have a problem with that, don't be so vague next time.

You know that's not what I meant and are dicking around.
That's your opinion. I am not a mind reader.

When I call you on THAT we go into this game where you claim I changed the goalposts to "quality".
Except I never did.
I exhausted every definition in my head for "how many thoughts were posted about a player". I see no other way to count "thoughts posted about" someone. You shot down the only two ways I could think of to quantify them. So what else should I have assumed but quality? You were the one that used the phrase "degree of mentions" as if that means anything concrete at all.

Here's how this works. You have two options and two only:

  1. Post your own list/comparison of the number of Shiro's thoughts posted about Anen vs. thoughts about Pere, since you seem to disagree so strongly with mine. It should be easy for you to do.

    or


  2. STFU
In post 3256, Muffin wrote:I'm happy to wait for you to post a list of posts.

But you can't do it, can you Thor? You'll just come back with faux-righteous indignation and dodge the question for the umpteenth time.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
And now, ladies and gentlemen, we FINALLY GET TO THE BOTTOM OF WHAT THE SCHOZZ THOR MEANT IN THE FIRST PLACE THAT HAS BEEN DEBATED FOR AGES.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 3311, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3254, Muffin wrote:Holy shit Thor, are you really this dense or is it just an act?

I'm all natural baby.

In post 3254, Muffin wrote:Your exact words were "look
how many
thoughts were posted about Anen". I interpreted that as "number of mentions". Obviously you felt that that is the wrong interpretation. Fine.

Yes - because CLEARLY what that means is "number of times in an iso a name is mentioned.
That is the first and only metric for assessing how much someone is talked about.
Pronouns don't exist.
Amount of words don't exist.
This is brilliant!

In post 3254, Muffin wrote:I exhausted every definition in my head for "how many thoughts were posted about a player". I see no other way to count "thoughts posted about" someone. You shot down the only two ways I could think of to quantify them. So what else should I have assumed but quality? You were the one that used the phrase "degree of mentions" as if that means anything concrete at all.

So, because you exhausted "Iso" and "quoting stuff not about them and accusing me of how it didn't line up with what I said - and I responded by calling you a twit, clearly that meant I meant "quality"?

Why couldn't it just mean you were using idiot methods?
Like, seriously, when you quote a ost that is 75% talking about me and claim it shows a lot of Pere talk - what the heck am I supposed to say?
Wen you forget how pronouns work and act like it invalidates my case - what am I supposed to say?
And the pure logical presumption is to go "quality" after that?
I still don't see that - it's literally a BS sidestep for no reason.
I might as well claim that you are now making a point on the amount of times I mentioned Shiro's name - it is blatant that you are not but since you...what, don't understand or agree with what I'm saying clearly you mean this utterly different thing that you have never mentioned, yes!

In post 3254, Muffin wrote:
  1. Post your own list/comparison of the number of Shiro's thoughts posted about Anen vs. thoughts about Pere, since you seem to disagree so strongly with mine. It should be easy for you to do.

    or


  2. STFU

Ohhh, how about I go with - Muffin is terribad at reading and talking.

No, how about I do #1 and then YOU back up this idiocy some more.

Because you still haven't explained tyhat quality thing AT ALL.
Nor have you justified to my mind that number of times a name is mentioned REMOTELY shows how much someone was talked about. Did you even read Shiro's posts?

Here's my stuff;

First off - let's rebut "name mentions" I give you Post #2434 or 2436 - those are is a posts ENTIRELY ABOUT ANEN THAT YOU NEVER QUOTED
That is because it uses the mystical and magical creation known as "a pronoun".
THIS SHOWS YOU NEVER READ ANYTHING AND JUST WERE TRYING TO DISPROVE ME ON EMPTY BLATHER.
And then acted shocked that I found your work shoddy and misrepresentative of what I was saying.
Then became unable to talk about it with me other than to whine in my face whenever I tried to talk to you and repeat you poor work as though it meant something - when you should have realized you'd done shoddy and skimmy work.

Whassup - Smurf-face?

Second off - "quality" - I never said it, I just kept calling your methods dumb and badly done, and noting why they were. You then whined and straw manned me. This showed that you didn't care about gak in finding out what I meant, it just showed an urge to attack.

Whassup?

Also, let's talk about quantity (or, apparently quality - it is the *only* thing Thor could possibly have meant)

*SNIP OF THE SPOILER TAB - IT WAS RUINING MY POST FORMATTING*
Above the line is commentary on Pere.
Below is commentary on Anen.
167 words vs. 363.

Oh...look...quantity wise he talked about Anen a lot and not so much about Pere.

Also, if you note, everything he said about Pere was "not scum" and then he voted him. I wonder why Thor would ever take that as uncool.
Quantity.



Yo, Muffin, back up your gak more - because I'm not unvoting you, because you're still talking like scum.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
OF COUUUURRRRSSSSEEE, I GET IT NOW! WORDS! HE WAS TALKING ABOUT WORDS! THE NUMBER OF WORDS! HOW DID WE NOT UNDERSTAND THIS WITH OUR FEEBLE BRAINS!? BECAUSE IT WAS REALLY SO HARD TO DO THIS EARLIER IN THE DAY RIGHT? BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! NOW IT'S TIME TO STRAWMAN, BECAUSE THE ONLOOKERS CHOSE TO DIP THEIR NOSES TOO FAR IN AND THE THORSCUM HAS A REALLY LONG REACH WITH HIS STRAWMAN CLAWS

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 3312, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3277, TierShift wrote:Look, thor.
You made the statement about there being many more anen mentions than pere mentions. Muffin tried to show there weren't. You just said he was doing it wrong and you said he was twisting your words. You also suggested there were more anen posts than muffin showed due to pronouns.

Instead, you could just show that there were more anen mentions than pere mentions.

Or any of you could look and develop your own read before sheeping Muffin's wall of derp?
Why do you sheep his wall of derp and act like I'm crazy? What steered *that* decision? Two people disagreed and both suggested the other sucked - why/how did you make your value call that he was talking sweet truth and I was not?
Because my info was already out there as much as his.


In post 3277, TierShift wrote:But now I did a shiro ISO and found that there is about 1 post more on anen (than on pere), in which she calls him scum. In the following post already, she says she was probably wrong. Your previous suggestion that there were more posts because of pronouns is simply wrong.

No - it is not. You are agreeing with me about quantity - even using small posts vs. big ones.
So...
Also, remember that Muffins's data *didn't* show that? He didn't show what you're now saying? Wonder why that is and wonder why Thor might call him out on that data?


In post 3277, TierShift wrote:I don't understand why you're just telling other people that they're wrong when they're trying to understand your arguments, instead of explaining/correcting them?

Because no one is actually trying to understand the arguement.
They instead are screeching that I'm scummy for not saying something...while ignoring I'm being misrepped blatantly.


In post 3283, Shiro wrote:Soo you are saying the fact that I had more relative conversations about Anen(specificaly with Axl) that made me view him in a better light thus conclude that Pere is the better wagon at the time scummy.....

How?

You voted a town read off deadline while not justifying the action while unvoting a mild not scum/town read while very much justifying the action.
In post 3293, Izariael wrote:I think there were several votes on there that were far scummier than a replacement player voting into a deadline lynch.

Cool.
Who?

In post 3303, TierShift wrote:I've never played with thor before. But you're saying his town MO is discrediting people who are right?

I'm pretty sure we have played before.

In post 3303, TierShift wrote:You made the statement about there being many more anen mentions than pere mentions. Muffin tried to show there weren't. You just said he was doing it wrong and you said he was twisting your words

Talk to me about how he tried to show this.
Discuss your thoughts about his method and manner.


In post 3303, TierShift wrote:Yes, I do not understand why THOR is reluctant to share the factual basis of his argument. THOR should share that. I'm attacking him for not doing that.

I shared it before you ever wrote this.
Also, this is silly.
In post 3327, Muffin wrote:
In post 3311, Thor665 wrote:First off - let's rebut "name mentions" I give you Post #2434 or 2436

Awww our little Thor is making progress! He's still throwing a temper tantrum but he's at least doing what he should have done many pages ago!

Okay so that brings it to, what, something like 5 anen posts and 3 pere posts? That's great and all but you haven't addressed what I perceive to be a clear progression of reads. Voting a townread D1 at deadline is not as scummy as you're trying to paint it to be. Nobody knows anything D1.

You've done nothing to dissuade me from the conclusion that you're just trying to bully town into mislynching a newbie.
In post 3328, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3326, Shiro wrote:......really? I was under the impression you had to if necessarry cause you need the flips info in order to see how people handled said person

So you intentionally voted a town read in order to verify he was a townread via lynch?

In post 3327, Muffin wrote:Awww our little Thor is making progress! He's still throwing a temper tantrum but he's at least doing what he should have done many pages ago!

I did do it pages ago, you just got *really* weird about translating what I said and induced uncertainty into the conversation.
I said he talked about one more than the other - he did.
You then, for some reason, needed me to prove something that was obvious.
Shock.


In post 3327, Muffin wrote:Okay so that brings it to, what, something like 5 anen posts and 3 pere posts?

Okay? Sure.
That changes nothing and is not applicable to what I said. But, sure.

In post 3327, Muffin wrote:That's great and all but you haven't addressed what I perceive to be a clear progression of reads. Voting a townread D1 at deadline is not as scummy as you're trying to paint it to be. Nobody knows anything D1.

Voting a town read is exactly as scummy as I am painting it to be - and this is definitely an odd shift from you from the "Thor is changing goalposts" gabble you were raising hell about mere seconds ago.
I don't care if you like his progression of reads - what I care about is your intentional misrep and playing dumb dance routine and how scummy and terrible it was
.

In post 3327, Muffin wrote:You've done nothing to dissuade me from the conclusion that you're just trying to bully town into mislynching a newbie.

Yesterday I bullied town into lynching a 'not Newbie'.
So...yeah...what is your theory here? That Thor is desperate to pick on Newbies?
Riiiiiiight.

Explain again your logical presumption about number of times a name is mentioned (while not reading enough to understand pronouns exit) and also that quality/quantity thing.
Your case is a joke.
It was pushed on misrep and derp.
Defend it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
.....and then Muffin got mod-killed. For reasons.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
And the rest I'm too tired to go over. Honestly, if anyone townreads Thor for any of this crap he pulled, then I'm kind of done. :facepalm:
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Post Post #3701 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:45 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3699, TierShift wrote:Right, but Thor's now just being awkward for no reason at all, while yesterday he needed to be so to get pere lynched.

The situations really don't match up. I know scum that bullheadedly push something to get a lynch through and I know scum that are awkward in general, but they do not overlap. You can't really be scum for both.


How is/was Thor being awkward for no reason at all Day 2? His awkwardness was due to being caught out on a flimsy scumread and failing to back it up. It took him over 10 pages to finally go "hey, here's what I *actually* meant!" - I can't see a townie letting a misunderstanding progress for so long while making
no proactive attempt to clarify
. Thor was completely on the reactive side of his exchange with Muffin. There was zero proactivity, and I just don't see how town feeling misunderstood would be content to allow the supposed "misrep" to continue for so long without presenting the factual evidence to support or clarify their statement.
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Post Post #3702 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:49 pm

Post by Boonskiies »

Hey, have you met my friend, Tags? Yeah, Spoiler Tags. He's a cool dude.
"Let it be known that almost everything Boonskiies said is either hilarious or annoying." - Shinobi

Yes, I'm
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Boonskiies
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Post Post #3703 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:52 pm

Post by Izariael »

Yeah, every time I added spoiler tags the formatting of everything changed to light blue, superscript font. Couldn't figure out why, so I stopped trying to add them in.
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Post Post #3704 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:52 pm

Post by Izariael »

Even the existing spoiler tags within the quotes weren't working properly.
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Post Post #3705 (ISO) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:14 am

Post by Slandaar »

That is quite possibly the longest post I have ever seen.
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Post Post #3706 (ISO) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:19 am

Post by TierShift »

no one actually reads walls, yaknow.
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Post Post #3707 (ISO) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:26 am

Post by TierShift »

iza is town. he is. thor, look elsewhere.
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Post Post #3708 (ISO) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:46 am

Post by Slandaar »

Iz; both town and scum would not want to get the argument on Shiro wrong so there is nothing in it. The quantity argument is bad as clearly name mentions has nothing to do with how much someone talks about someone else and what Thor said does stand up to this. I literally showed this.

I see you managed to spend all this time posting a lovely huge wall instead of showing these scummier votes than Shiros though.
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Post Post #3709 (ISO) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:03 am

Post by The Fonz »

That is just unreadably long.
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Post Post #3710 (ISO) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:03 am

Post by Shiro »

@Slander can you tell me how twas scummy ? I still don't bloody get it

@Tier I read the wall.I only find Axl walls kinda hard to read xD
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Post Post #3711 (ISO) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:09 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 3535, Thor665 wrote:

He's basically saying 'Thor is playing the game' in a narrowed focus way and then acting like it's a scum case.


This! So this.

Similarly, when GM claims Thor isn't scumhunting because tunnel, I wonder if she knows what scumhunting is. There is no value in 'commenting on other players' if you're confident you have scum in your dights.
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Post Post #3712 (ISO) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:12 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 3544, Flubbernugget wrote:The real question is why the fonz is defending all of Thor's derp.


OH HAI disguised OMGUS.

It's because the case on Thor looks exactly like cases on me when I'm town.
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Post Post #3713 (ISO) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:13 am

Post by Slandaar »

The incredibly short version: You never made it clear why you voted PV over Anen.
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Post Post #3714 (ISO) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:28 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3708, Slandaar wrote:Iz; both town and scum would not want to get the argument on Shiro wrong so there is nothing in it. The quantity argument is bad as clearly name mentions has nothing to do with how much someone talks about someone else and what Thor said does stand up to this. I literally showed this.

I see you managed to spend all this time posting a lovely huge wall instead of showing these scummier votes than Shiros though.

. The scumreads are votes that I found to be scummier than Shiro's. I didn't like their votes on day 1, and I don't like their votes now.

You've clearly missed the entire point of the issue if you think
Thor's factual accuracy
is what I have issue with. Yes, his stumbling over getting his story straight led to the events at hand, but the accuracy of the statement has no bearing on his reluctance to clarify and his insistence of making others bring the harvest to him when he's sowed no seeds. Thor is a clever player. I'm sure that he will make the facts work for him regardless of his alignment, and so I don't think factual accuracy is a strong scum measure for Thor. Nor on anyone really. Being wrong doesn't make you scum. I'm not sure what gave you the impression that I was scumreading him for being factually incorrect, but no. That's not what it's based on.

To simplify it down to the word of the week, it would be tone. Pulling what was relatively basic information out of him took far more effort and time than it should have, and he rested on his laurels instead of proactively clearing up the misinterpretation of his statements. Then he played the victim the entire time, and painted Muffin as moronic and "derpy". It just sits wayyyy off from where I see town sitting.
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Post Post #3715 (ISO) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:30 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3713, Slandaar wrote:The incredibly short version: You never made it clear why you voted PV over Anen.


She made it perfectly clear why she voted PV over Anen. What she didn't make clear is why she voted PV over Thor.
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Post Post #3716 (ISO) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:31 am

Post by Slandaar »

So, ALL of your scumreads are because you didn't like their votes on PV?

:]
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Post Post #3717 (ISO) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:33 am

Post by Slandaar »

In post 3715, Izariael wrote:She made it perfectly clear why she voted PV over Anen.

What was this reason then?
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Post Post #3718 (ISO) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:34 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3714, Izariael wrote:. The scumreads are votes that I found to be scummier than Shiro's. I didn't like their votes on day 1, and I don't like their
(Day 1)
votes now.

EBWOP for clarity.
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Post Post #3719 (ISO) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:37 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3716, Slandaar wrote:So, ALL of your scumreads are because you didn't like their votes on PV?

:]


Sure, they share that characteristic in common. Is that the sole reason why I think they're scum? No.
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Post Post #3720 (ISO) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:44 am

Post by Slandaar »

I worded that badly I knew it wasn't the sole reason, still, all your scumreads voted PV. It's quite an easy way to play - accuse those who voted the mislynch.

Thor's vote being scummy is because? I shall look into the others votes later.
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Post Post #3721 (ISO) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:44 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3717, Slandaar wrote:
In post 3715, Izariael wrote:She made it perfectly clear why she voted PV over Anen.

What was this reason then?



Also, Pere's wagon hadn't had any votes on it for quite some time when Shiro voted, then suddenly T S O, Garmr, Axle, Muffin, Boonskiies (and you yourself though not official) voted him in quick succession. How is Shiro the scum setting up mislynch in this scenario?
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Post Post #3722 (ISO) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:47 am

Post by Slandaar »

2488 is not a reason to vote Anen over PV when he had PV as town too. Why did he vote Anen over PV?
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Post Post #3723 (ISO) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:47 am

Post by Slandaar »

Uh wrong way round you know what I mean.
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Post Post #3724 (ISO) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:54 am

Post by Shiro »

In post 3713, Slandaar wrote:The incredibly short version: You never made it clear why you voted PV over Anen.


Didn't I ? Numerous times I've said I didn't like any wagon but a lynch had to happen I was between voting Pere and Anen but I was leaning toward Anen. After my disscussion with Axl and rereading Anen ISO I ended not wanting to lynch anen. Pere was the only other option since it was deadline day.

Can I ask something Slander which was your alternative ? Yea u defended Pere the whole time yet u never really presented any wagon for people to vote how is you abstaining to vote to keep your hands clean any better ?
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