NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

[goodmorning]

So this Thor quote from MN1517 reminded me of Thor in this game.

To everyone making comments about how I'm not "driving" like you would normally expect me to be.
Take a look at the wagons at the moment.
Figure out which is, by far, leading.
Then ask yourself which one I started - and if you don't think I started it tell me who did.
Then kindly facepalm yourselves for me.

No prizes for guessing his alignment there.

[AxleGreaser]

Is dead on the money. I'm no more convinced that GM is town than Thor. Both are obfuscating, and both act annoyed when people question them about it.

and what is your view on the Garmr wagon?

[AxleGreaser]

In this particular situation it also had the subtext of "put up or shut up."

The question was

Hey, there are reads!

I'll take your offer of explanation,

please start with the material you're using to read GrayFoxxx and Izariael.

Gray is Town based on my very long interaction with Csareo.
Izariael I'm really not reading either way, that's the Null pile.

Can you point to something from GrayFoxxx which confirms this read? If not that, can you point to something specific from Csareo and explain why it makes that slot town?

I know Izariael is in your null pile. Can you explain the null based on material in the thread? Or explain what's missing?

Barring that,

can you point to anything concrete in the thread to explain any of your reads?

You had

offered

to explain your reads and totally

balked

at the first hurdle.
There is no back up and prove whther or not you could "can you point to anything concrete in the thread to explain any of your reads?"

and then you didn't

...

and instead feigned annoyance as an excuse.

Still not seeing how ignoring Daves question was deserved... or consistent with your claimed desire to leave a legacy 2047

[AxleGreaser]

So this Thor quote from MN1517 reminded me of Thor in this game.

To everyone making comments about how I'm not "driving" like you would normally expect me to be.
Take a look at the wagons at the moment.
Figure out which is, by far, leading.
Then ask yourself which one I started - and if you don't think I started it tell me who did.
Then kindly facepalm yourselves for me.

No, you didn't start the Illume wagon. Everyone literally decided to vote Illume for a dumb reason at the same time. It wasn't you leading the wagon and others following you, not at all.

So are you arguing this game is like that one?

[davesaz]

Is dead on the money. I'm no more convinced that GM is town than Thor. Both are obfuscating, and both act annoyed when people question them about it.

and what is your view on the Garmr wagon?

Don't see the reasons.

[davesaz]

@dave: I can't remember the last time you posted an original thought. This, too, is beginning to bother me.

Gee, I believe that the questions that Axle quoted were mine, and I was the first to ask them.

[AxleGreaser]

Is dead on the money. I'm no more convinced that GM is town than Thor. Both are obfuscating, and both act annoyed when people question them about it.

and what is your view on the Garmr wagon?

Don't see the reasons.

err. What do you mean?

not see == says you dont see any reasons for Garmr being scum posted in thread.
not see == you say the ones that are posted dont make sense to you.

[AxleGreaser]

Don't see the reasons.

just in case,
I know GM hasnt posted much in the way of reasons and we were just talking about him, I was asking about your read on Garmr.

Spoiler: GMs reasonless/opaque posts/reads on Garmr

IGMEO: Garmr,

Am I the only one not hugely fond of Garmr's play rn? I don't know what it is though.

Garmr still feels weird to me,

Players I am currently uneasy about: Garmr,

I like this question.

I find that Garmr has affirmed himself out of the uncomfortable list.

Players who are Town: GrayFoxxx, Garmr, TSO, Tier

I didnt look after the hard town read.

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP. Players please mentally paste this into the previous post of mine

P-Edit: When I say "concrete," I don't mean running down a list with vague wishy-washiness. Assigning a value to someone is not a concrete stance, it's just a stance. Saying

Garmr

(for instance) is "Townish" -

what does that even mean?

Clearly it means

about as much as all GMs posts on garmr put together.

[Thor665]

I'm going to go on record and state that none of those are contradictions.

What are those then ?

The first one is a change of opinion after some major stuff happened as far as the Thor case goes, the second one is either bluster like he said or just indifference, the third one I'm forgetting already off the top of my head and am too lazy to go back and find, but it's not a contradiction either.

but [Thor] has a habit of being super opaque and stubborn that bugs me.

I am stubborn - I am not being opaque though. At all.

So this Thor quote from MN1517 reminded me of Thor in this game.
[snip]
No prizes for guessing his alignment there.

So me being attacked for not pushing and noting that I was pushing is like this game where I was not attacked for not pushing?
Okay...?

Here's me in another game;

We are down to basically 24 hours to figure a lynch.
Mafia is playing poorly.
Wolf is playing well.
Town is playing meh.

So, pretty much, at this stage we're going for a wolf win.
Huzzah.

I was annoyed at people playing like derps.
What was my alignment there?
You are being an utter derp.

I would support the GM wagon, if people want to get on that - but just due to the utter waste that is the slot. I honestly think Iz is a more questionable player right now.

[davesaz]

Is dead on the money. I'm no more convinced that GM is town than Thor. Both are obfuscating, and both act annoyed when people question them about it.

and what is your view on the Garmr wagon?

Don't see the reasons.

err. What do you mean?

not see == says you dont see any reasons for Garmr being scum posted in thread.
not see == you say the ones that are posted dont make sense to you.

Don't agree with.

[reinoe]

5. Conftown means that the case can't possibly be as scummy as you're trying to portray it as.

@reinoe

First

Please show me where Thor portrayed it as scummy. (He didnt)

Axle, did you miss this?

It is scummy, stupid, and annoying.

Vote: muffin

Thor is very clearly indicating that he found it scummy.

nah more

didn't think about them

because this statement

5. Conftown means that the case can't possibly be as scummy as you're trying to portray it as.

is in the present tense and is a claim about now.

Reinoe appears to me to be appealing to the authority of a flipped towny.
Saying the case cant be scum because a flipped towny agreed with with it ...

Hey flipped PereV thought Thor might be scum too, but thats irrelevant as I didnt like his argument either.

Reinoe needs to justify the argument not the people who supported it when they were alive in the game.

I don't need to justify anything to someone who doesn't think about relevant points of the game and casually dismisses the opinion of other players. But I will so that other players can hurry up and vote near obvscum Thor and we can get a lynch on that shit...

I experienced firsthand the things Muffin described...
1)thor's misleading comments
2)thor's effort to try and discredit the person instead of the argument.
3)thor's weird wordplay

Stuff about Axxle...
3) Axxle's misleading WTFuckery. Muffin made a case. Lot's of people agree with it, myself included. Thor tries to claim the case is scum motivated when we know conftown was pushing it.
4) Axxle claims that Thor never called the case scummy which is a lie at worst and an oversight at best. Instead of acknowledging it he just claims he never even thought of it.

So yes I'm going to "appeal to the authority of a townie" because Thor is trying to claim the push on him is scum motivated when it's clearly not. Axxle is willing to lie/overlook relevant points that contradict what thor says in order to defend Thor. Furthermore, Muffin didn't just agree with the case on Thor...Muffin pushed the case hard. Axxle is trying to make it seem like Muffin was on the sidelines saying "oh yeah I agree" which was not the nature of Muffin's push at all.

[Thor665]

@Reinoe - just to get in here. You do realize that I wasn't calling his case on me scummy, I was saying that his weird inability to communicate with me was scummy.

He was failing to communicate - I don't care that he was town, he was playing badly and communicating worse.

[Thor665]

1)thor's misleading comments
2)thor's effort to try and discredit the person instead of the argument.
3)thor's weird wordplay

1. My comment was not misleading - Muffin read it like a derp and then demanded I defend it. Go quote my comment and explain how it's misleading - it is not.
2. You are quoting me attacking his arguments in the very post you make this claim.
3. I am sorry I use words in a weird way?

[Thor665]

^^^
Like, is that the case in your mind?
It's a joke.

[AxleGreaser]

The first one is a change of opinion after some major stuff happened as far as the Thor case goes,

Nope

yes Garmr claims, Garmr's Thor read went from, "null town" to "needs out today" scum. on the basis of You pushing a dodgy to him

Shiro case

and a

reread

Thors null on my reads list at the moment

HOW.
Thor has almost FOUR HUNDRED POSTS. HOW DO YOU NOT HAVE A READ FROM THAT.

he was a town read before But his

push on shiro

makes no sense to me and that jump on iz well that was bad. I'm

rereading

all those four hundread posts

to someone way more important to lynch today, than Axle(me)
and on Axle Garmr claimed to be this sure. 2788 "I'm 85 percent sure you are scum which is why I offered the 1v1."

I don't buy it, maybe not a literal contradicition. It certainly not is towny flow of thought. His latter Thor stance does make sense with his claimed former conviction of Boons > Axle = 85%.

he would have to be suddenly very very sure Thor is scum for that to make sense.

perhaps Garmr also thought i might

go away tonight

Perhaps shot # whichever you aren't gets wise to the fact that there doesn't appear to be any real trajectory in the posts of yours I have bothered to read and you

go away tonight

.

[Thor665]

That said. You did take forever to say anything of worth - and then voted Pere out of the blue with no justification despite making a wall on Anen. That feels wonky to me.

@Reinoe - here is the initial commentary that Muffin took exception to - please explain how it is "misleading"?

[Thor665]

I don't buy it, maybe not a literal contradicition. It certainly not is towny flow of thought.

Don't argue semantics in a silly way.
It *isn't* a contradiction.

Now, sure, maybe it was an un-towny flow of thought and if someone wants to argue that - more power to them. But I was told it was a contradiction and was pointing out that it wasn't.

[Thor665]

That said. You did take forever to say anything of worth - and then

voted Pere out of the blue with no justification

despite making a wall on Anen. That feels wonky to me.

@Reinoe - here is the initial commentary that Muffin took exception to - please explain how it is "misleading"?

Let's even note, the bold is basically the major point made there.

Muffin then came after me with "I ISOed Shiro and the number of times Pere's name comes up in Ctrl+F is 1 more than Anen - so your case is a misrep!"

It was ridiculous for him to say that.
It is ridiculous that I have been having to discuss it with multiple people.
I never said names, I never said anything unclear - I offered a very straight to the point comment and Muffin went full derp on it.
Go ahead, talk me through the horrible confusion of the statement. i want to understand this.

[AxleGreaser]

4) Axxle claims that Thor never called the case scummy which is a lie at worst and an oversight at best.

Nope i never claimed that, I said your statement was about the present tense.
That is certainly not never.

Even if a flipped towny once at some time pushed Thor on a point, and Thor pushed back thinking how it was being done was scummy.

That is no indication that the rest of the case, as in every other point is not being driven by scum.
They probably are not, all being driven by scum, but at least some of the pushes read as very scummy to me.

See my previous posts for actual reasons the pushes are actually scummy, instead of appeals to flipped towny authority.

[Izariael]

That said. You did take forever to say anything of worth - and then

voted Pere out of the blue with no justification

despite making a wall on Anen. That feels wonky to me.

@Reinoe - here is the initial commentary that Muffin took exception to - please explain how it is "misleading"?

Let's even note, the bold is basically the major point made there.

Muffin then came after me with "I ISOed Shiro and the number of times Pere's name comes up in Ctrl+F is 1 more than Anen - so your case is a misrep!"

It was ridiculous for him to say that.
It is ridiculous that I have been having to discuss it with multiple people.
I never said names, I never said anything unclear - I offered a very straight to the point comment and Muffin went full derp on it.
Go ahead, talk me through the horrible confusion of the statement. i want to understand this.

Uhh... no. NO NO NO! You are directly omitting some posts, and it is definitely not what happened. Here, let me help you (WITH TRUE FACTS):

I'm mixing you ((Shiro)) up with someone else in my head, clearly

.

That said. You did take forever to say anything of worth - and then

voted Pere out of the blue with no justification despite making a wall on Anen.

That feels wonky to me.

I'm mixing you up with someone else in my head, clearly.

That said. You did take forever to say anything of worth - and then voted Pere out of the blue with no justification despite making a wall on Anen. That feels wonky to me.

Cute misrep.

Here's the "wall" in question, about Anen. I note without surprise that the

first line explicitly shows Shiro's diminishing scumread on Anen.

Given the proximity of deadline I do not see any internal inconsistency there.

Contrarily, you're now stretching the facts to fit your vote.

@Muffin - no, actually, there isn't a misrep there.

Look at how many thoughts were posted about Anen. Then look at the same for Pere.

Then look at the vote. That reads legit to you?

Who did u even mix me up with ?

@Shiro - some other lurksack.

In other words, you can't think of someone you can pin it on?

@Muffin - no, actually, there isn't a misrep there. Look at how many thoughts were posted about Anen. Then look at the same for Pere. Then look at the vote. That reads legit to you?

Prior to #2558, instances of "pere" in Shiro's ISO: 8
instances of "anen" in Shiro's ISO for the same period: 7

Seems like a misrep to me, bud. Flow of Shiro's thoughts are evident to me, and seem reasonable for someone w a town mindset.

You're doing a really bad job selling Shiroscum.

Followed by the ensuing discussion between Thor and Muffin. Once again, Thor is contorting facts to fit his side of the issue.

[reinoe]

4) Axxle claims that Thor never called the case scummy which is a lie at worst and an oversight at best.

--->Nope i never claimed that,<---

5. Conftown means that the case can't possibly be as scummy as you're trying to portray it as.

@reinoe

First

Please show me where Thor portrayed it as scummy.

--->(He didnt)<---

Axle, did you miss this?

--->It is scummy,<---

stupid, and annoying.

Vote: muffin

Thor is very clearly indicating that he found it scummy.

Tonight's episode of America's Funniest Home videos is titled...

When Whiteknighting a scumbuddy goes wrong: AxleGreaser Edition

[AxleGreaser]

I don't buy it, maybe not a literal contradicition. It certainly not is towny flow of thought.

Don't argue semantics in a silly way.
It *isn't* a contradiction.

Now, sure, maybe it was an un-towny flow of thought and if someone wants to argue that - more power to them. But I was told it was a contradiction and was pointing out that it wasn't.

most of us are bad with words. (our bad, see previous muffin argument)
I find there to be contradiction, in that I cant put both thoughts(old stance on Thor vs new) in one townies mind.

Where Contradiction means : "direct opposition between things compared; inconsistency."

The later GarmrThought(thor needs to go first) is inconsistent with Null town read + Shiro push + re-read is now
as i just cant get them to add up to Thor > Boon > 85% scum Axle

I find direct opposition between those two thought when I try to imagine one towny having them both

Ok so I am bad,

Garmr is still scum

[AxleGreaser]

Tonight's episode of America's Funniest

It would be funny if you didnt keep brutally cutting bits out of what i said.
That really does badly misrepresent what i said.

as originally indicated way back before you got excited. I interpreted your claim to be about Thor in the present tense
so I didnt go back and read the whole thread again and check.

[goodmorning]

I swear I feel dumber every time I read this game. I'm also super angry at myself for being susceptible to having the goalposts moved out from under me, which has happened like three times already. (Example: this happened to Muffin when he pointed out that Thor's version of events was incorrect as Shiro's scumread on Anen was decreasing; Thor responded by moving the posts to the amount of discussion rather than the content of said discussion.)

Can Axle and Thor stop rehashing things? Especially Axle because he keeps having weird conversations with himself which descend more and more into madness each time?
I'd really like to not apathy out of this game, alright? I mean, I respect that causing apathy is helpful to your wincon if you're Scum, but there is literally no easier target for that than me and it's not fairrrrrrrrrr

@dave: And those posts were YESTERDAY, which is kind of THE POINT I WAS MAKING FFS

@Thor: Did I say the situation was the same? No. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Now:
There are 16 non-Thor players alive. Only 4.5 of them care enough about the gamestate to say they townread him (Slandaar, Fonz, Scripten, Axle, Tier [when flipflopping]). He's still alive. He hopes to talk his way out of being lynched. TBQH I'm not so sure he won't. This, too, makes me angry.

You know that thing that people find super scummy? That "hint at a wagon but don't actually push it" thing? THOR IS DOING THAT WITH ME. If this is a thing you treat as a scumtell then you should probably think Thor is Scum.

I'm going to lean on reinoe and Izariael for a bit now til I get my (metaphorical) breath back. By which I mean I'm going to keep their ISOs and mine open in one thread and just pull quotes from the three of us to answer all the stupid fucking rehashed questions that Thor or fucking Slandaar will bring up for the millionth fucking time. And heaven forbid that Fonz actually catch up, because he'll rehash questions by dint of being 20 pages behind.
But not Axle. Not because he won't rehash everything, but because I'm not answering him and it feels INCREDIBLY PLEASANT.

This has been a rambling post because if everyone else can shit up the thread then so can I.