NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #3625 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:38 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 3624, Shiro wrote:He was contradicting himself

What was said contradiction?
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Post Post #3626 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:40 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3601, reinoe wrote:5. Conftown means that the case can't possibly be as scummy as you're trying to portray it as.


@reinoe
First
Please show me where Thor portrayed it as scummy. (He didnt)

Second:
Here is an argument of Muffiins. (The flipped conf town player)

I claim the argument and the point it makes is crap. (not scummy, it cant be, he flipped town)

Please show how Muffins argument is in anyway good....

Note you didnt actually say it has to be good just not scummy. Merely being Not scummy is irrelevant to working out if the case holds water, so I am assuming you actually meant to say more than that.
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Post Post #3627 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:42 pm

Post by Scripten »

In post 3623, TierShift wrote:
In post 3464, Scripten wrote:Tiershift, why so singleminded for the Thor wagon? I mean, I was starting to like it, but Garmr's recent actions must have been enough to get you onto his wagon. Do you really find his replacing out to be -that- alignment-indicative. I'm all for waiting for his replacement to see if miracles occur, but this makes that Thor wagon look mighty wrong to me.

What do
you
think of his replace-out? I think it's telling enough to push him to somewhat above null.


I'm entirely null on it. I don't think it's alignment indicative, but I do think his other play has been scummy.

In post 3623, TierShift wrote:
What do you think of the garmr wagon? You've been on there for quite a time, without doing shit. Why aren't you doing more to get your scumread lynched?


I recently mentioned this in a post to Thor, but I've backed off the wagon until he gets a replacement in. I kind of missed the shitshow that apparently convinced him to replace out, so I wasn't able to say anything until after he was replacing out.

In post 3623, TierShift wrote:
Also, why does my singlemindedness mean the thor wagon is mighty wrong?


Not your singlemindedness, but the interaction between the Thor wagon and the Garmr wagon.
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Post Post #3628 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:46 pm

Post by TierShift »

In post 3624, Shiro wrote:He claimed he had found 3 scums almost certain (Which is solid reason not to be fed up and bored)
He was in good enough mood to reread game and conclude thor is scum which implies he was scumhunting(I mean he found 3 scum,4if we add scripten)
He got cornered
He was contradicting himself
Suddenly bored and in no mood to scumhunt
AtE BS
Replaces out

Break down to me how that progression is town

Your argument falls apart because he wasn't even close to being lynched. No scum is ever gonna freak out and actually replace out over a few votes.

Sudden shifts in interest in a game happen, I've experienced them often enough.

You're suggesting that all of those things are related to each other. I don't think so. The decision to replace out came right before he announced it, I could see that. I don't think it's related to him being voted a few times.

I've already explained how his replacing out makes sense from a town pov so I'm not doing that again.
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Post Post #3629 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:47 pm

Post by TierShift »

In post 3627, Scripten wrote:Not your singlemindedness, but the interaction between the Thor wagon and the Garmr wagon.

Right, so what about it is wrong?

I dn't remember you pushing garmr much before his breakdown either.
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Post Post #3630 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:47 pm

Post by Shiro »

In post 3421, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 3392, Garmr wrote:
Thors null on my reads list at the moment
but I do think that boon is genuinely scum of some kind.

In post 3418, Garmr wrote:So you finally seeing that shiro is town slaandar that's good. But If you have a look back didn't you notice something if you look back at thors play on a whole. Thors plays here reminds me of that game where me and him were scum buddies. His vote on shiro was bad(so were your reasoning on shiro) and the iza vote is bad.

VOTE: thor

We can deal with boon or axle tomorrow.
Thor needs out first
.


OH look my scum read claimed scum in the thread.


First this which Axl posted

Then about Tier

In post 3437, Garmr wrote:
In post 3436, TierShift wrote:Garmr is trying so hard to be my new favourite scumread.

I got atleast 1 or 2 scumz on my wagon might as well have them all jump on my wagon.

In post 3444, Garmr wrote:Meh it was more of a ask for scum to hop on a dare. My read on you null i don't know what the fuck you are.

Though debetable this might have been real intentions but I think it was more I called him scum and had nothing to back it up when asked.

Also

In post 3445, Garmr wrote:I'm fine if everyone one shifts their votes on me if they promise to lynch axle after I flip town.

After having claimed that Thor needs out and Axl,Boon can be dealt with tommorow. Which came at the end after claiming he had time to totaly scum read thor thus certain about the vote as stated here about the decline in his opinion
In post 3430, Garmr wrote:I have had 7 hours to think about this shiro to think about this shiro and I have had constantly declining opinion of thor since the start of day 2.
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Post Post #3631 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:57 pm

Post by Thor665 »

I'm going to go on record and state that none of those are contradictions.
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Post Post #3632 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:59 pm

Post by Shiro »

In post 3631, Thor665 wrote:I'm going to go on record and state that none of those are contradictions.


What are those then ?
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Post Post #3633 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:12 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3606, Flubbernugget wrote:I've only seen her act opaque with Thor because he deserves it.


I think perhaps you had better rethink that he "deserves it" is a reason for play. If everyone got what they "deserved" from other players the game would go straight down the toilet and scum would romp it in.

However even going with that.
(note in the following exchange there is NO thor at all. So Thor cant possibly deserve this as hes not there...)

Davesaz makes fairly(very) reasonable approach requesting information
and GM is about as opaque as it gets.

In post 1648, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1632, davesaz wrote:
In post 1627, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1624, davesaz wrote:Hey, there are reads! I'll take your offer of explanation, please start with the material you're using to read GrayFoxxx and Izariael.

Gray is Town based on my very long interaction with Csareo.
Izariael I'm really not reading either way, that's the Null pile.

Can you point to something from GrayFoxxx which confirms this read? If not that, can you point to something specific from Csareo and explain why it makes that slot town?

Not from Gray, no. With Csareo it was pretty much cumulative answers to my questions, but I'll go back through tomorrow and pull some quotes for him while I'm doing the Fonz thing for Thor.


Barring that, can you point to anything concrete in the thread to explain any of your reads?

I'm going to pretend I don't know what you're implying.


and no he didnt go through and get that stuff for dave...

In post 1836, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1803, davesaz wrote:
In post 1648, goodmorning wrote:
Barring that, can you point to anything concrete in the thread to explain any of your reads?

I'm going to pretend I don't know what you're implying.

Explain your reads. I don't listen to meta, I lynch the players who rely too much on it. Because only scum don't explain their reads.
Clear enough for you?

Yeahhhhhhh, "pretend" wasn't in there because I wanted you to explain; if I had I'd have asked you to.
"Pretend" was in there because I was trying not to get annoyed.
"Was" is in the previous sentence because now I
am
annoyed.


what he did get was annoyed.

There now you have seen her being opaque with davesaz.
Go back and read the exachnage in thread in complete context.
Did Dave deserve an answer?

Where as GM's claim
In post 1616, goodmorning wrote:If you'd like an explanation of one of these and I haven't already given it, you're welcome to ask.

turned out to be fiction / good PR.
not genuine transparency.
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Post Post #3634 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:16 pm

Post by TierShift »

Ok who was it that said shiro was obvious newbtown?
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Post Post #3635 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:24 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3634, TierShift wrote:Ok who was it that said shiro was obvious newbtown?


That would be , for whatever it's worth.
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Post Post #3636 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:25 pm

Post by Scripten »

Tiershift:


In post 3464, Scripten wrote:I love it when my scumreads pretty much out themselves. Garmr's replace out is not alignment-indicative, but that opportunistic vote on Thor is just icing on the scum-cake.

That said, I'm a little bothered by Garmr's jump onto Thor's wagon. It -definitely- does not read as a bus attempt, so Thor is either town or, at least, scum/3rd-party not aligned with scum-Garmr. (Sorry, bringing up multiball again... :P ) It makes me feel like the Thor wagon should migrate over to Garmr for today.
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Post Post #3637 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:29 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3626, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 3601, reinoe wrote:5. Conftown means that the case can't possibly be as scummy as you're trying to portray it as.


@reinoe
First
Please show me where Thor portrayed it as scummy. (He didnt)

Axle, did you miss this?
In post 3202, Thor665 wrote:It is scummy, stupid, and annoying.
In post 3203, Thor665 wrote:
Vote: muffin

Thor is very clearly indicating that he found it scummy.
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Post Post #3638 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:30 pm

Post by TierShift »

In post 3635, Izariael wrote:
In post 3634, TierShift wrote:Ok who was it that said shiro was obvious newbtown?


That would be , for whatever it's worth.

Darn I was wanting to tell that person how I disagreed. Oh well.

Scripten, who is scum if not garmr?
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Post Post #3639 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:31 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3636, Scripten wrote:
Tiershift:


In post 3464, Scripten wrote:I love it when my scumreads pretty much out themselves. Garmr's replace out is not alignment-indicative, but that opportunistic vote on Thor is just icing on the scum-cake.

That said, I'm a little bothered by Garmr's jump onto Thor's wagon. It -definitely- does not read as a bus attempt, so Thor is either town
or, at least, scum/3rd-party not aligned with scum-Garmr.
(Sorry, bringing up multiball again... :P ) It makes me feel like the Thor wagon should migrate over to Garmr for today.

Missing a third alternative where Garmr is town and Thor is scum. Never mind that option 2 is also a viable vote for Thor.
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Post Post #3640 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:37 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3637, Izariael wrote:
In post 3626, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 3601, reinoe wrote:5. Conftown means that the case can't possibly be as scummy as you're trying to portray it as.


@reinoe
First
Please show me where Thor portrayed it as scummy. (He didnt)

Axle, did you miss this?
In post 3202, Thor665 wrote:It is scummy, stupid, and annoying.
In post 3203, Thor665 wrote:
Vote: muffin

Thor is very clearly indicating that he found it scummy.


nah more didn't think about them because this statement
In post 3601, reinoe wrote:5. Conftown means that the case can't possibly be as scummy as you're trying to portray it as.

is in the present tense and is a claim about now.

Reinoe appears to me to be appealing to the authority of a flipped towny.
Saying the case cant be scum because a flipped towny agreed with with it ...
Hey flipped PereV thought Thor might be scum too, but thats irrelevant as I didnt like his argument either.

Reinoe needs to justify the argument not the people who supported it when they were alive in the game.
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Post Post #3641 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:43 pm

Post by Scripten »

In post 3638, TierShift wrote:
Scripten, who is scum if not garmr?


I'm not really looking to make a compromise, but if Garmr is town, then I would probably most support a GM or, less so, a Flubbernugget wagon. Starting to wonder about the quiet slots, too, but then, lurkers are always suspicious.

In post 3639, Izariael wrote:
Missing a third alternative where Garmr is town and Thor is scum. Never mind that option 2 is also a viable vote for Thor.


Sure, that's possible, but I don't think it's likely. Not really ready to vote even minor town reads in lieu of a stronger scumread.
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Post Post #3642 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:07 pm

Post by Izariael »

Well, I'll just call it like I see it: Garmr wagon seems like a deliberately-placed counter-wagon made by scum to avoid Thor lynch.
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Post Post #3643 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:26 pm

Post by Scripten »

In post 3642, Izariael wrote:Well, I'll just call it like I see it: Garmr wagon seems like a deliberately-placed counter-wagon made by scum to avoid Thor lynch.


Explain this, please. What scum do you see on Garmr's wagon, then? What I saw was Boonskiies wagon dissolving and the Garmr wagon coming out of Garmr, y'know, being scummy.
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Post Post #3644 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:28 pm

Post by goodmorning »

In post 3596, Slandaar wrote:You think Thor is scum so it's not that 'Thor would have to be scum and I think he's town'. Where is the complicated issue here? either you think it is or you think it isn't.

I am agnostic on this issue at present.

It doesn't have anything to do with Thor though, and I'm not sure why you think it would.

In post 3599, reinoe wrote:You've repeatedly tried to denounce or discredit the people voting you but the case on you is solid.

ilu reinoe

In post 3606, Flubbernugget wrote:I've only seen her act opaque with Thor because he deserves it.

And Axle, for much the same reason.
Actually nobody in this game deserves opacity from me more than Axle does.

@Tier: stop making me flipflop on you

your treatment of shiro looks sort of town but your thor shifts are random as anything

In post 3637, Izariael wrote:Axle, did you miss this?

Axle's missed a lot of things this game.

@Scripten: What is your read on Thor and why?
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Post Post #3645 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:28 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3631, Thor665 wrote:I'm going to go on record and state that none of those are contradictions.


they do look little like scum unravelling. Seeing writing on the wall.

PSA:
(note: I dont have experience with this replace out BS. I dont read it, I simply excise it from the my game thread. In my mind I treat in thread replace me out AtE, as public PMs and none of my business.
So i have no read on the replace out request. I believe happened, only because and when I saw this http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6370829

I am here to play mafia inside the game, not musical chairs.
)

That said I am just fine with others discussing amongst themselves the meaning of a Rep out.
I have no valid (alignment indicative) opinion, at the very least to make one at this time Id need to cross lines that I wont, in evaluating players who are currently not in the game and have no right of reply on what I regard as a personal level.
I am not that obnoxious a bastard.

and by bastard I mean... a good ole
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Post Post #3646 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:34 pm

Post by Scripten »

In post 3644, goodmorning wrote:
@Scripten: What is your read on Thor and why?


Thor is weird and I sometimes don't like his play but I think he's town. I can't really come up with a solid case on him being scum, and I can see town motivation in some of his actions, or at least a tone that suggests town, but he has a habit of being super opaque and stubborn that bugs me.
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Post Post #3647 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:03 pm

Post by davesaz »

This Axle post
Spoiler: longish
In post 3633, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 3606, Flubbernugget wrote:I've only seen her act opaque with Thor because he deserves it.


I think perhaps you had better rethink that he "deserves it" is a reason for play. If everyone got what they "deserved" from other players the game would go straight down the toilet and scum would romp it in.

However even going with that.
(note in the following exchange there is NO thor at all. So Thor cant possibly deserve this as hes not there...)

Davesaz makes fairly(very) reasonable approach requesting information
and GM is about as opaque as it gets.

In post 1648, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1632, davesaz wrote:
In post 1627, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1624, davesaz wrote:Hey, there are reads! I'll take your offer of explanation, please start with the material you're using to read GrayFoxxx and Izariael.

Gray is Town based on my very long interaction with Csareo.
Izariael I'm really not reading either way, that's the Null pile.

Can you point to something from GrayFoxxx which confirms this read? If not that, can you point to something specific from Csareo and explain why it makes that slot town?

Not from Gray, no. With Csareo it was pretty much cumulative answers to my questions, but I'll go back through tomorrow and pull some quotes for him while I'm doing the Fonz thing for Thor.


Barring that, can you point to anything concrete in the thread to explain any of your reads?

I'm going to pretend I don't know what you're implying.


and no he didnt go through and get that stuff for dave...

In post 1836, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1803, davesaz wrote:
In post 1648, goodmorning wrote:
Barring that, can you point to anything concrete in the thread to explain any of your reads?

I'm going to pretend I don't know what you're implying.

Explain your reads. I don't listen to meta, I lynch the players who rely too much on it. Because only scum don't explain their reads.
Clear enough for you?

Yeahhhhhhh, "pretend" wasn't in there because I wanted you to explain; if I had I'd have asked you to.
"Pretend" was in there because I was trying not to get annoyed.
"Was" is in the previous sentence because now I
am
annoyed.


what he did get was annoyed.

There now you have seen her being opaque with davesaz.
Go back and read the exachnage in thread in complete context.
Did Dave deserve an answer?

Where as GM's claim
In post 1616, goodmorning wrote:If you'd like an explanation of one of these and I haven't already given it, you're welcome to ask.

turned out to be fiction / good PR.
not genuine transparency.

Is dead on the money. I'm no more convinced that GM is town than Thor. Both are obfuscating, and both act annoyed when people question them about it.
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Post Post #3648 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:12 pm

Post by goodmorning »

@Scripten: What I got from that is you feel some of his posts look Town and some of his posts look Scum, but you feel like he's Town.
It bothers me that you've got twice as many negatives in that post as positives given that you townread him.

@dave: I can't remember the last time you posted an original thought. This, too, is beginning to bother me.

Also, it really isn't one of Axle's better posts on me. When I say something like "I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that," it's my work talking; it means "you need to back up, reassess where you're standing, and then choose a different course of action." In this particular situation it also had the subtext of "put up or shut up."

I have no patience for people who try to be sneaky.
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Post Post #3649 (ISO) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:13 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

<... as per previous PSA things that simply, did not happen, in the game I am playing>

In post 3618, T S O wrote:fuck it, Aegor, I've been feeling bad about this ever since I did it, so I'll replace back in.


Welcome.
Hey TSO.2 you replaced into a slot I found scummy enough to want to lynch it on D1.

To help you catch up.
For my most recent stance on your predecessor(TSO.1) You might want to look at and previously

As new to the thread player(in a scummy looking to me slot),
What I'd really like is for you to do something alignment indicative. (either way would be really helpful.)

@TSO

So why, with reference to particular posts, are people scummy (likely to flip scum) and who are they?

<(yeah there is no 4th party either.)>
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