NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

[Thor665]

okay garmr replaced out we can go back to thor now.

Yes, because you have really been hitting me with questions and thoughts.

And he seems like one of those people who enjoys drawing scum and love to manipulate up to the final moment, which is not replacing out.

Why do you have this belief?

[Thor665]

@Mod - I would love to get a vote count to showcase the current voters on me, thank you.

[Thor665]

No one unvote me till after the vote count please.
Also thank you.
You are allowed to add votes to me if you'd like. After all - I am arguing quantity over quality or something - somehow.

[Thor665]

Note - Shiro already did move.

[TierShift]

And he seems like one of those people who enjoys drawing scum and love to manipulate up to the final moment, which is not replacing out.

Why do you have this belief?

Because he said so (likes to draw scum) and I believe others have confirmed this.

[goodmorning]

It makes me feel like the Thor wagon should migrate over to Garmr for today.

No. Stop doing associatives before flips and start contributing actual useful information.


Why has this game descended into petty bullshit? Why do so few people actually seem to be scumhunting? Why is Thor not dead yet?

[AxleGreaser]

And he seems like one of those people who enjoys drawing scum and love to manipulate up to the final moment, which is not replacing out.

Why do you have this belief?

Because he said so (likes to draw scum) and I believe others have confirmed this.

and he likes to be cornered?

or he likes to draw scum and win? and reinforce this self image?

Because of that I enjoy scum games more and if you look into my past scum games you can see the effort and time I put into each masterpiece. I'm currently trying to improve my town game

since I feel like I mastered scum

and tbh to me it looks like you have town mindset playing a scum game.

[Thor665]

And he seems like one of those people who enjoys drawing scum and love to manipulate up to the final moment, which is not replacing out.

Why do you have this belief?

Because he said so (likes to draw scum) and I believe others have confirmed this.

Going by the provided quote - why do you think he'd replace out as either alignment? One he has 'mastered' and the other he is working 'to master'.
Giving up is literally the opposite of both of those.

[davesaz]

Who do you currently think is scum?

[goodmorning]

Who are you asking?

[AxleGreaser]

Why has this game descended into petty bullshit? Why do so few people actually seem to be scumhunting? Why is Thor not dead yet?

So GM when I checked the veracity of 3400 "I'm not going back through my ISO as I just had to do so to point out all the posts of mine that you didn't read. Off the top of my head I was pretty clear on Csareo, TSO, dave, maybe Tier"

I failed to find you giving strong good reads on those people even when asked.

in 1836 you were so overly sensitive about someone(dave) finding you scummy for maybe not having reasons for your reads... and asking for them that you were

annoyed

.

Yeahhhhhhh, "pretend" wasn't in there because I wanted you to explain; if I had I'd have asked you to.
"Pretend" was in there because I was trying not to get

annoyed

.
"Was" is in the previous sentence because now I am

annoyed

.

It wasnt until Slaandar hounded you near the end of D1, we get the vague description of how you decided on your Csareo read.

I reread, what else? Scummy doesn't have to mean Scum.

and there is still no answer to this question

Can you point to something from GrayFoxxx which confirms this read? If not that, can you point to something specific from Csareo and explain why it makes that slot town?

That puts lie to this claim

Besides which I made clear that if anyone had any questions about anyone then all they had to do was ask and they should receive.

Dave asked what he received was your

annoyance

and no real answer.

[Shiro]

Note - Shiro already did move.

I never voted you to move my vote away.

[AxleGreaser]

eeek slightly mis psoke when i looked you did sometimes provide some basis for TSO as i described in 3419

[Scripten]

Note - Shiro already did move.

Why are you trying to spread misinformation, Thor? I really want to believe you're town, but you keep doing this. Why?

What is your real reason for misrepping Shiro?

[reinoe]

Thor's hop on Iza was gross.

Guys, Muffin was town. Let's not ignore the implications of that. The things he was pointing out had 100% motivation. His stuff on Thor seems true.

Upgrading my read on Dave. He's null.

[AxleGreaser]

PSA

Spoiler: The vote posts... if i got them all

previous vote count link 3331

VOTE: Thor

VOTE: thor

Well, that was a lot to catch up to.

I saw Thor saying things about

how many times

Anen was talked about vs how many times PV was talked about. How many times is clearly a quantity question, and Muffin responded with a quantity answer. Thor then said it's stupid to just count the mentions. Muffin then said, quite reasonably I would observe, that it's not just the quantity of the mentions that Thor was concerned about, but the

quality

. I totally expected Thor to reply that quality of mention / conversation was exactly what he was talking about, but Thor's reply was about Muffin's question being stupid, the measurement isn't either quality or quantity.

Then after 2-3 pages, Thor comes back and says it is indeed about the quality of the conversation. Though he still refuses to use that word to describe it, the words he does use still boil down to quality.

My take away from this event are:
1. Thor wants to make up a reason on Shiro
2. Thor's response to Muffin was to try to discredit him.

VOTE: Thor

Garmr: has before this point in the game claimed I am 85% likely to flip scum (2788)
swapped his vote onto and even stronger scum read 2941
So according to Garmr, he has found two scum and is > 85% confident both will flip scum (claims Boon > Axle == 85% scum)

The number is arbitrary it is just there to be representative of him being quite confident in each being scum.

Regarding calling your case bad instead of fabricated etc it literally means nothing. I really don't see anything in that at all; I have said my scumread's arguments/cases are bad in the past well I probably use the word terrible mostly but it's the same thing.

The wagon thing is actually really good.



I didn't really 'get' what you were saying prior. Kinda read it and went ugh nothing wrong with saying that and moved on. Maybe the focus on it made me pay the extra attention... Bite sized chunks work wonders.

You have my axe good sir.

VOTE: Garmr

I will respond to all this GM stuff later...

So you finally seeing that shiro is town slaandar that's good. But If you have a look back didn't you notice something if you look back at thors play on a whole. Thors plays here reminds me of that game where me and him were scum buddies. His vote on shiro was bad(so were your reasoning on shiro) and the iza vote is bad.

VOTE: thor

We can deal with boon or axle tomorrow. Thor needs out first.

i'm town but I really don't want to play this game and I can't be bothered hunting. SO going to let you guys if you want to mislynch me or for me to replace out.

This...This is pure AtE BS

Vote:Garmr

@Mod - I would love to get a vote count to showcase the current voters on me, thank you.

recently changed wagons (and when)

[7]

Thor665:

goodmorning, TierShift, Izariael 3338 reinoe 3360 Flubbernugget 3387 davesaz 3418 garmr
[4]Garmr: Scripten, AxleGreaser 3416 Slaandar 3450 Shiro

[reinoe]

Thor's hop on Iza was gross.

Guys, Muffin was town. Let's not ignore the implications of that. The things he was pointing out had

100% motivation

100%

TOWN

motivation. His stuff on Thor seems true.

Upgrading my read on Dave. He's null.

Fixed.

[Thor665]

Note - Shiro already did move.

Why are you trying to spread misinformation, Thor? I really want to believe you're town, but you keep doing this. Why?

What is your real reason for misrepping Shiro?

...because I was scum and figured no one would look and that Shiro would forget that he hadn't voted me and everyone would accept what i said as absolute fact.

What is your real reason for asking a question like this?

Note - Shiro already did move.

I never voted you to move my vote away.

Fair enough, my bad.

[Thor665]

goodmorning, [

Muffin

]

TierShift

, Izariael reinoe

Flubbernugget davesaz garmr

My thoughts.

[The Fonz]

Right, I've decided to catch up thematically, rather than chronologically. Firstly -

To Axle re 3190: I obviously do not believe players should continue pushing lone wagons forever when they're getting no traction. But there's two things here: One, I don't believe TSO should have appeared unviable to you early D2. He'd gotten as much heat as anyone else D1 apart from the guy who swung, and the guy he was pursuing relentlessly flipped town. No-one else's wagons on Day One (bar the successful Pere-wagon) got anywhere either. Two, you neither said you changed your mind, nor made clear'I'd prefer TSO, but don't think he's a viable wagon so am willing to pursue a second-best wagon of [Name].' (Until now). You just ignored him. This feels off given he had been your top suspect.

[Thor665]

Thor's hop on Iza was gross.

People keep saying stuff like this.

Why was the hop "gross" (or bad/scummy/et al - whatever you wish to apply to it)

[The Fonz]

GM response:

GM's annoying but town. Play makes perfect sense from the perspective of a somewhat poor town player who is trying and has a slightly inflated view of her own abilities.

eyyyyy what's your excuse then?

My play makes sense from the perspective of a good town player, obviously.

1. No, he doesn't. I went through and pointed out that none of his reads (other than Pere) is any more justified than "I liked his gut reads on 4 people."

"I don't like his read" =/= He doesn't have reads. And you can't just go 'Except for that one really strong read, which he pursued with tenacity.' Today we know who his top suspect is, too.

2. Yeahhhhh I don't know what universe you play Mafia in but I find tunneling to be mildly scummy. As Scum, it's a lot easier to push one person and not comment on the rest so that you can "change your mind" whenever it's convenient. I mean, Town tunnel too, and I've certainly done it, but it's not something that makes Scum's lives harder.

Yeeeaaaah I don't know what universe you play mafia in, but town who think they have found scum should push that case strongly until such time as the player doesn't look scummy any more or someone else looks scummier. Thor's top suspect was the leading wagon for most of yesterday. He has no reason to waste time talking about other wagons, except in so far as how they were inferior to the PerVwagon. It would in fact have been antitown to do so.

3. Effort is most certainly not indicative of alignment. Thor posts ridiculous numbers of posts no matter what.

Effort is most certainly indicative of alignment, that's just obviously true. Also, by 'effort' I don't mean number of posts (Which is somewhat related to alignment, but only relatively, and often confounded). I'm not saying 'He's town because he's posting a lot.' I'm saying he's town because he appears emotionally invested in what he's saying, and playing proactively.

4. It's really easy to say "come on guys, deadline is coming, let's consolidate" especially when them not consolidating means you lose a mislynch.

So I still don't understand it.

Not sure what this is relevant to. People are blaming Thor because no-one else pushed a wagon with anything like the effectiveness he did.

[The Fonz]

On Boonskies:


I think he's probably town. The whole 'softclaim power and try to get shot' thing makes sense for a town BP. My problem here is that if we think he's town, we're basically gambling the game on that here and now, because scum is never going to spend two nightkills to try to get rid of a VI with no night action. And it's an absolutely perfect SK gambit (For this reason, I hate Tier attacking Garmr over this - SK is both a reasonably obvious thing for town to consider from a VI player making that specific claim, and not a thing scum would have insider knowledge of). I really don't like the look of the wagon though. GRRRRR.

Some of his actions don't seem to make sense coming from a BP. Like the whole thing where he was trying to lynch Izariael and said something about Iz fishing for towncred by not killing Boon which I don't remember clearly because it hurt my brain.

That doesn't make sense, but it doesn't make specifically little sense for a BP to say, because Iz didn't know which power role Boon was hinting.

[reinoe]

Thor, how would you feel about an iza lynch?

The townread in question is boon, right?

1. I would not oppose it and would probably be mildly supportive of it.
.

Only mildy in support of. Ok.

Oh... sorry. I thought you said a simple yes or no response would suffice. I must have misunderstood.

It did suffice - I just thought you would be happy to cram answers into my face in order to help out the guy you agree with in getting the answers he claims to want/need.

No?

An antagonistic interaction instead of inquiry. "It's good enough but I'm also going to sling mud".

VOTE: Thor

Here's the extent of my answer, Thor.

So - further emptiness and inability to discuss my devilishly difficult questions of "I think I never said the things you're saying I said"
Okay.

An attempt to discredit. Again, why all this for someone you're mildly in support of?

@Iz - make me the offer, force me into the exchange of info. Call me on my bluff.

I see no need to do so. I was merely an observer of the discussion at hand until I indicated that I liked Muffin's stance on it. From my perspective, you were unable to refute Muffin's line of questioning, and

are now resorting to pulling others into the discussion with the intent of straw-manning the entire accusation.

Cool.

I would like to state that I find your actions, vote, and support of the "issue" on me to be empty, weak, and nonsensical.
I feel this response from you proves it as so.
Others may assess as they wish.

I expect similar from Tier and Muffin, honestly.
They can feel free to excite me and prove me wrong.

We now know Muffin is 100% town. Highlighted stuff in bold text is a good observation.

It seems like you're voting for people who may be the most skilled/experienced at noticing you're only trying to discredit/belittle the people presenting arguments towards you. Instead of just clarifying things you're trying to double down on crappy explanations.

With the vote on Muffin and then the vote on Iza it looks like you're just voting people who are rightfully pointing out the errors in your play. But what really is getting me is the way you're trying to discredit instead of clarify. Especially the quantity vs quality argument. That looks like pure goalpost moving.

[AxleGreaser]

and not a thing scum would have insider knowledge of).

There is one way scum!Garmr would

I feel like his a sk because he feels the need to announce the fact his two shot bullet proof to discourage who ever is shooting from shooting him again.

If there were 3 shots last night and scum shot Boon, then shooting him again makes sense and is a slip.

Either that or its fsck up like Thor and the Shiro vote change saga, ooops no it didn't.

What is not obvious is reason to have assumed hed been shot once already as per the above.

, I hate Tier attacking Garmr over this - SK is both a reasonably obvious thing for town to consider from a VI player making that specific claim