NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #3300 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 am

Post by Slandaar »

In post 3290, AxleGreaser wrote:does that mean you just showed something Thor said was right?

I explained what he is saying.
In post 3290, AxleGreaser wrote:Was it alignment indicative?

How?

Not really, How muffin and GM tackled it is pretty terrible but it's mostly just showing them what Thor is saying and then we can see how they react to it.
In post 3292, AxleGreaser wrote:
I asked Shiro questions about Anen. Shiro replied.

I see your point.

I still think what he has done is gone and passed responsibility of his vote to Thor by asking the 'Wouldn't PV do X' and then not responding to Thor's answer just later voting PV.

Sorry my internet is dying at the moment... don't expect the quickest responses.
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Post Post #3301 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:31 am

Post by Slandaar »

In post 3293, Izariael wrote:
Why is Shiro's vote any scummier than the others? I think there were several votes on there that were far scummier than a replacement player voting into a deadline lynch.

If you show me which votes you find scummy I will explain.

I would be interested to see that regardless.

In post 3294, Izariael wrote:Should she have instead separated herself from the major wagons and voted for someone else entirely in a manner that would have no impact on the final result beyond pushing us closer to no-lynch?

No, I am not saying this. It's how he did it. If he had said 'Well I think they are both town so don't care which is lynched PV is larger wagon vote:PV' that would be fine but he didn't.
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Post Post #3302 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:40 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3301, Slandaar wrote:No, I am not saying this. It's how he did it. If he had said 'Well I think they are both town so don't care which is lynched PV is larger wagon vote:PV' that would be fine but he didn't.


Yeas and as per that is a point not a case to lynch on D2.

You can Add (but i dont anyone except me has said it yet)
Shiro should be looking for scum, not so excessively curious about "why vote me"

again, should and is that plausible given Shiros experience level are two different things.

breathing room.

If Shiro goes on being scummy, by all means lynch Shiro to bits. (Ill bang the drum)

Today lynch the scummy guy, that is "forced as shit"
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Post Post #3303 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:17 am

Post by TierShift »

In post 3298, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 3282, TierShift wrote:I've never played with thor before. But you're saying his town MO is discrediting people who are right?


I also dont like discredit being in this, when it was not said. (as far as i saw)

I am funny like that.

I do not understand what you're saying here, but if you're suggesting thor is not discrediting, I can show you examples of where he is. If you're not saying that, what are you saying?
In post 3299, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 3295, TierShift wrote:Slandaar's focus on proving thor's factual basis right is so wrong


so was you arguing about it here?

In post 3277, TierShift wrote:Look, thor.
You made the statement about there being many more anen mentions than pere mentions. Muffin tried to show there weren't. You just said he was doing it wrong and you said he was twisting your words. You also suggested there were more anen posts than muffin showed due to pronouns.

Instead, you could just show that there were more anen mentions than pere mentions.


But now I did a shiro ISO and found that there is about 1 post more on anen (than on pere), in which she calls him scum. In the following post already, she says she was probably wrong. Your previous suggestion that there were more posts because of pronouns is simply wrong.

I don't understand why you're just telling other people that they're wrong when they're trying to understand your arguments, instead of explaining/correcting them? And when your basis is wrong, why do you keep insisting other people are to blame?

Yes, I do not understand why THOR is reluctant to share the factual basis of his argument. THOR should share that. I'm attacking him for not doing that.

SLANDAAR sharing the factual basis does not alter the fact that THOR isn't sharing it. Get it?
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Post Post #3304 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:44 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3303, TierShift wrote:
In post 3298, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 3282, TierShift wrote:I've never played with thor before. But
you're saying
his town MO is discrediting people who are right?


I also dont like discredit being in this, when it was not said. (as far as i saw)

I am funny like that.

I do not understand what you're saying here, but if you're suggesting thor is not discrediting, I can show you examples of where he is. If you're not saying that, what are you saying?


No as stated (TBMK) no one else mentioned discrediting. You mentioned discrediting in a way that
put it into other peoples mouths
.

If you wish to show examples of him doing that and you believe they are alignment indicative that would be good thing to do. (obviously?)

Thor has said things about me that I disagree with. Some I corrected some I ignored.
Thor if hes town doesn't know my alignment, and needs to find out. He does that by being Thor.

town!Thor knows Thors alignment, who do you think Thor should want to have control of the thread direction? an influence?

I suspect I will find it very hard to identify Thors scum game, as very similar behaviours could I think make fine and useful scum meta.
So if you are going to show relatively normal Thor behaviours and claim they are scum you will probably need to be quite discerning in your choices.

You right now give me bad vibes. (its new please stop)
I do not understand what you're saying here, but if you're suggesting thor is not discrediting, I can show you examples of where he is. If you're not saying that, what are you saying?

I get the distinct feeling youd like to show Thor discrediting, but want a reason to.

What I am saying is what I said: other people did not AFAIsaw say discrediting.
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Post Post #3305 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:45 am

Post by Slandaar »

In post 3167, davesaz wrote:This pings me a bit. Sure, a little fun can be good, but this would also make a nice intro to actually defending Thor under the guise of a make-believe angel role.

The objective of playing a game is really to have fun. I mean win is also there and ideally do both but if it's not fun what are you playing for?
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Post Post #3306 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:48 am

Post by Slandaar »

In post 3302, AxleGreaser wrote:Yeas and as per 3297 that is a point not a case to lynch on D2.

It isn't the case it's a point like you say...
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Post Post #3307 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:49 am

Post by TierShift »

I still have no idea what you meant with the discrediting comment axle
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Post Post #3308 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:50 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3306, Slandaar wrote:
In post 3302, AxleGreaser wrote:Yeas and as per 3297 that is a point not a case to lynch on D2.

It isn't the case it's a point like you say...


So now can we lynch Garmr today?
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Post Post #3309 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:06 am

Post by Slandaar »

I do have some suspicion of Garmr mostly for the way he has been nibbling at me recently after I basically rejected his reaching out thing but I much prefer Shiro. I need to check his vote reasons at some point though which is a big part of your case so eh. Will do that today/tomorrow you can hold me to it.
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Post Post #3310 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:10 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3307, TierShift wrote:I still have no idea what you meant with the discrediting comment axle


This statement
In post 3282, TierShift wrote: But you're saying
his town MO is discrediting people who are right?

is false

No one said
that
.

Try just going with that.

Oh and then decide if you want to show Thor discrediting people or not. (Aka is what you are going to show alignment indicative)

Actually I just got the significance of you have not played with Thor before.
I have not either, but I have read a number of his games, some(one or more) long before I joined the forum. So I am not even knew to his play style.

I am not sure what to suggest, as reading enough stuff carefully enough in another Thor game (or games) to get feel for his play is not a small task.
I may or may not have suggestion for you tomorrow. (about 12 hrs) (then I will be AFK for 24)
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Post Post #3311 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:27 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 3254, Muffin wrote:Holy shit Thor, are you really this dense or is it just an act?

I'm all natural baby.

In post 3254, Muffin wrote:Your exact words were "look
how many
thoughts were posted about Anen". I interpreted that as "number of mentions". Obviously you felt that that is the wrong interpretation. Fine.

Yes - because CLEARLY what that means is "number of times in an iso a name is mentioned.
That is the first and only metric for assessing how much someone is talked about.
Pronouns don't exist.
Amount of words don't exist.
This is brilliant!

In post 3254, Muffin wrote:I exhausted every definition in my head for "how many thoughts were posted about a player". I see no other way to count "thoughts posted about" someone. You shot down the only two ways I could think of to quantify them. So what else should I have assumed but quality? You were the one that used the phrase "degree of mentions" as if that means anything concrete at all.

So, because you exhausted "Iso" and "quoting stuff not about them and accusing me of how it didn't line up with what I said - and I responded by calling you a twit, clearly that meant I meant "quality"?

Why couldn't it just mean you were using idiot methods?
Like, seriously, when you quote a ost that is 75% talking about me and claim it shows a lot of Pere talk - what the heck am I supposed to say?
Wen you forget how pronouns work and act like it invalidates my case - what am I supposed to say?
And the pure logical presumption is to go "quality" after that?
I still don't see that - it's literally a BS sidestep for no reason.
I might as well claim that you are now making a point on the amount of times I mentioned Shiro's name - it is blatant that you are not but since you...what, don't understand or agree with what I'm saying clearly you mean this utterly different thing that you have never mentioned, yes!

In post 3254, Muffin wrote:
  1. Post your own list/comparison of the number of Shiro's thoughts posted about Anen vs. thoughts about Pere, since you seem to disagree so strongly with mine. It should be easy for you to do.

    or


  2. STFU

Ohhh, how about I go with - Muffin is terribad at reading and talking.

No, how about I do #1 and then YOU back up this idiocy some more.

Because you still haven't explained tyhat quality thing AT ALL.
Nor have you justified to my mind that number of times a name is mentioned REMOTELY shows how much someone was talked about. Did you even read Shiro's posts?

Here's my stuff;

First off - let's rebut "name mentions" I give you Post #2434 or 2436 - those are is a posts ENTIRELY ABOUT ANEN THAT YOU NEVER QUOTED
That is because it uses the mystical and magical creation known as "a pronoun".
THIS SHOWS YOU NEVER READ ANYTHING AND JUST WERE TRYING TO DISPROVE ME ON EMPTY BLATHER.
And then acted shocked that I found your work shoddy and misrepresentative of what I was saying.
Then became unable to talk about it with me other than to whine in my face whenever I tried to talk to you and repeat you poor work as though it meant something - when you should have realized you'd done shoddy and skimmy work.

Whassup - Smurf-face?

Second off - "quality" - I never said it, I just kept calling your methods dumb and badly done, and noting why they were. You then whined and straw manned me. This showed that you didn't care about gak in finding out what I meant, it just showed an urge to attack.

Whassup?

Also, let's talk about quantity (or, apparently quality - it is the *only* thing Thor could possibly have meant)

Spoiler: Walls of gak
Both Pere and Thor lynch seems bad to me.
Pere is honestly the same but less regard. He is only off when talking with Thor but most people that argued with thor ended up seeming off after it is that a thing ? I did notice he has a knack for winning argument. The fact that most people on pere wagoon have little reason of their own and just follow thor is off by itself . Especially earlier. Liek using Thor abbility to push well to further a lynch. He pretyt much hold his own when talking to others about the case.
I think I understand your reason behind Pere wagoon but why wouldnt scum pere back off when he had the chance ? I mean he had a few chances biggest being the one where it was pointed that there was a misundersating with what multball meant. Why wouldn't he step away and spare himself all this trouble ? He was clearly losing the argument anyway.

===========================================

I would link to the game itself but he said himself his isn't playing in the same way. I guess understable since that was a newbie game and this is a 21 people thingy
Ok after reading Anen ISO a few times I don't see him as scummy as I initialy though maybe TSO constant "He is scum" rubbed on me as I was reading through everything in one go.
and now after the re reads I feel relucant to vote for Anen. He does seem like a nicely placed mislynch. God damn it...Dx

You can't disagree thought that he has acted pretty town. You said his tone is off but I don't really know how his tone is supposed to be.

It is funny cause about halfway the game I felt really comfortable sheeping his decision it after a bit when he that my view on pere changed a bit xD

Btw since we have 3 neighboorhoods is it the chance of scum in each really high or speculation ?
Hmmm first of the pigeon jokes felt off I had hard time believing that the person that made a complicated impssible to see crypto message acted that way.

He had many posts that made little sense but screamed screamed town. I don't really see that here either

His approach to being top counterwagon want as defensive.

I get the feeling he is more laid back here but that might be cause of his TSO interaction which would have made most people go fuck it.

Tier has a point though half a newbie game isn't sufficient meta to cross check.

That is on top of my head. Will read his and Pere ISOs when I get home to try and make a better conclusion .
I guess best wagon is Anen. His posts seem off and coming right out of a game that he was town(even if I was maf) his post don't have the same town vibe they had there. I don't really know how to explain this tbh. Has GM noted anything similar to that ? If I recall Tier has and he was in the same game I speak of.

Above the line is commentary on Pere.
Below is commentary on Anen.
167 words vs. 363.

Oh...look...quantity wise he talked about Anen a lot and not so much about Pere.
Also, if you note, everything he said about Pere was "not scum" and then he voted him. I wonder why Thor would ever take that as uncool.
Quantity.



Yo, Muffin, back up your gak more - because I'm not unvoting you, because you're still talking like scum.
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Post Post #3312 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:39 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 3277, TierShift wrote:Look, thor.
You made the statement about there being many more anen mentions than pere mentions. Muffin tried to show there weren't. You just said he was doing it wrong and you said he was twisting your words. You also suggested there were more anen posts than muffin showed due to pronouns.

Instead, you could just show that there were more anen mentions than pere mentions.

Or any of you could look and develop your own read before sheeping Muffin's wall of derp?
Why do you sheep his wall of derp and act like I'm crazy? What steered *that* decision? Two people disagreed and both suggested the other sucked - why/how did you make your value call that he was talking sweet truth and I was not?
Because my info was already out there as much as his.

In post 3277, TierShift wrote:But now I did a shiro ISO and found that there is about 1 post more on anen (than on pere), in which she calls him scum. In the following post already, she says she was probably wrong. Your previous suggestion that there were more posts because of pronouns is simply wrong.

No - it is not. You are agreeing with me about quantity - even using small posts vs. big ones.
So...
Also, remember that Muffins's data *didn't* show that? He didn't show what you're now saying? Wonder why that is and wonder why Thor might call him out on that data?

In post 3277, TierShift wrote:I don't understand why you're just telling other people that they're wrong when they're trying to understand your arguments, instead of explaining/correcting them?

Because no one is actually trying to understand the arguement.
They instead are screeching that I'm scummy for not saying something...while ignoring I'm being misrepped blatantly.

In post 3283, Shiro wrote:Soo you are saying the fact that I had more relative conversations about Anen(specificaly with Axl) that made me view him in a better light thus conclude that Pere is the better wagon at the time scummy.....

How?

You voted a town read off deadline while not justifying the action while unvoting a mild not scum/town read while very much justifying the action.

In post 3293, Izariael wrote:I think there were several votes on there that were far scummier than a replacement player voting into a deadline lynch.

Cool.
Who?

In post 3303, TierShift wrote:I've never played with thor before. But you're saying his town MO is discrediting people who are right?

I'm pretty sure we have played before.

In post 3303, TierShift wrote:You made the statement about there being many more anen mentions than pere mentions. Muffin tried to show there weren't. You just said he was doing it wrong and you said he was twisting your words

Talk to me about how he tried to show this.
Discuss your thoughts about his method and manner.

In post 3303, TierShift wrote:Yes, I do not understand why THOR is reluctant to share the factual basis of his argument. THOR should share that. I'm attacking him for not doing that.

I shared it before you ever wrote this.
Also, this is silly.
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Post Post #3313 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:42 am

Post by Thor665 »

@Tier - straight up question; how do you feel about Muffin's"logical" thought that I must have meant quality instead of quantity?
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Post Post #3314 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:42 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 3259, Flubbernugget wrote:Thor I still wanna know why dave is town.

I still wanna know why he's scum - and there we stand.
But, there is no wagon on Dave, so apparently I'm winning.
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Post Post #3315 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:57 am

Post by beastcharizard »

I am really sorry I haven't caught up yet. Stupid math homework and real life.
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Post Post #3316 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:15 am

Post by Shiro »

In post 3312, Thor665 wrote:You voted a town read off deadline while not justifying the action while unvoting a mild not scum/town read while very much justifying the action.


But there wasn't anybody else to vote at the time. After re-reading Anen ISO I really didn't want to lynch him. Pere was the only other person since you wagon was horrible
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Post Post #3317 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:09 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 3316, Shiro wrote:
In post 3312, Thor665 wrote:You voted a town read off deadline while not justifying the action while unvoting a mild not scum/town read while very much justifying the action.


But there wasn't anybody else to vote at the time. After re-reading Anen ISO I really didn't want to lynch him. Pere was the only other person since you wagon was horrible

You called Pere's wagon also horrible.
What changed?
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Post Post #3318 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:28 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

(new and improved now with more
annotations
and bits and links and new ending)
(well I think its better but it got little bit bigger too so original is .)
Reasons for voting Garmr D2. (annotated version)

As indicated D1
I have been suspicious of the voters on the Anen wagon since and have been trying to work who is scum and who is wrong or bad ever since.

GARMR
is scum because

Safe Play

Voting easy, not likely fight back targets

Boonskiies:
for bad(made up) reasons
(discussion of Aneninens criticism of boonskiies read here references )

Aneninen:
for pointing out the reasons were bad (but providing others that would be Ok) See
Thereby (according to garnr) stopping the pressure on Boon? (see below)
Aneninen offered these alternative reasons in Anen: "If you have told that you had voted for Boonskiies because of lurking and producing nothing I would have believed it."
Axle ?:
Dont know if I look safe to attack or not? (see OMGUS/self conscious)

then not actually progressing the cases, even when 85% sure they are scum...

OMGUS
(
overly self conscious
)
Aneninen
See: Holy over sensitive souls, end of
Axle
Extra double self conscious

I mention I have similar problem with his read. and ASK if he(Garmr) can explain TSOs read on Anen?
(because I am at the time scum hunting TSO, and trying to understand TSOs reasons. And why none else seems to care TSO doesnt have any stated reasons as being related to the thread explicitly.))
Garmr replies ignoring the question because its all about him
“I have explained my reasons even through it started with a misunderstanding.”
and suddenly (Garmr: "bang it hit me") Garmr decides I am scum (In D2 somewhere he claims it didn't happen like that)

Scummy reasoning as previously described

Perhaps the most telling for me is most recently stated in
I do know that in fact Garmr unvoted Boon when Boon soft claimed D1

but Garmr claims
that Aneninens (chainsaw/wk) of boon that Garmr “he(Anen) stopped my pressure on boon ” “It really cut any progress on boonskies short as he hasn't provided much content."

Scummy Bullshit.
Especially when garmr also charcterises Anens post as making Garmnrs points stronger

Also see the whole garmr Boon interaction (do a double ISO) already pre neutered any real pressure brought by

I cant see how a town mind can simultaneous think all those things. (points made stronger, and pressure removed == Nope not buying it)

Scum
can however be upset that their nice safe to hide vote on Boon is taken away, so they OMGUS the guy that did it.
That makes sense.

lastly (for now)
Garmr says of
him
(Boon)
In post 3058, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 3053, Garmr wrote:who ever is shooting from shooting
him
again.


what makes you think anyone is shooting
him
?


I cant see any reasonable reason a towny would be using the language "shooting him again", and be assuming it had already happened and that Boon knew.
(read the subsequent discussion for yourself)

However if Garmr belongs to a faction that had shot Boon, then that makes lots of sense.
I hate slips, per se, but only to the extent that I would hardly ever lynch someone on the basis of just that
However, such point is one more piece of evidence ina continuing and enduring pattern of scummy play.

That is eminently lynchable, and way more likely to flip scum than any one trick pony based wagon.

vote of Garmr happened

After this more reasons appeared as Garma reacted to the case.

Garmr claims Axles case is bad, no one takes seriously, not worth discussing
I ask why his post feels like he knows I am town. (read it) (Garmr saying Axle 85% scum is here )

Garmr Claims: Axle is clogging up the thread.
If Axle is 85% scum then Axle am generating interactions for when Axle flips sometime (thats a good thing yeah?)

Garmr Claims: Axle is no fun. Garmr doesnt mind being a wagon
These answer bits of 3267 (read them if you found 3267 persuasive.)

Is for me very strong point. I see Garmr being happy to be wagoned by a guy he 85% scum reads to be clearly not towny.
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Post Post #3319 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:31 am

Post by Shiro »

In post 3317, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3316, Shiro wrote:
In post 3312, Thor665 wrote:You voted a town read off deadline while not justifying the action while unvoting a mild not scum/town read while very much justifying the action.


But there wasn't anybody else to vote at the time. After re-reading Anen ISO I really didn't want to lynch him. Pere was the only other person since you wagon was horrible

You called Pere's wagon also horrible.
What changed?


I saw Anen in a better light. That's what changed and that is the point.

I didn't strongly like any of the wagon but I had some off feeling about Anen which was why I was thinking of voting him out of the 3 picks. After speaking with axl and re-reading Anen ISO I saw him in a better light and decided that from the 3 it might as well be Pere.

Btw you wanted reason to find who you mixed me up with. Well you brought what he said as an argument for Tier to vote me, doesn't that mean the person who exhibited the behaviour you accused me for is scummy ? Why aren't you interested into seeing why he did and potentially caught scum ?
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Post Post #3320 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:40 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 3319, Shiro wrote:I didn't strongly like any of the wagon but I had some off feeling about Anen which was why I was thinking of voting him out of the 3 picks. After speaking with axl and re-reading Anen ISO I saw him in a better light and decided that from the 3 it might as well be Pere.

But you found the Pere wagon to be bad? Why support it at all?
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Post Post #3321 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:50 am

Post by Shiro »

In post 3320, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3319, Shiro wrote:I didn't strongly like any of the wagon but I had some off feeling about Anen which was why I was thinking of voting him out of the 3 picks. After speaking with axl and re-reading Anen ISO I saw him in a better light and decided that from the 3 it might as well be Pere.

But you found the Pere wagon to be bad? Why support it at all?


You didn't exactly see me pushing it now did you ?
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Post Post #3322 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:58 am

Post by Thor665 »

I saw you vote it - that's kind of a big part of supporting it.
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Post Post #3323 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:15 am

Post by Shiro »

In post 3322, Thor665 wrote:I saw you vote it - that's kind of a big part of supporting it.


Was I supposed to abstain from voting ? A lynch had to happen regardless of how much I liked the wagons. Do you disagree with that ?
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Post Post #3324 (ISO) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:23 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 3311, Thor665 wrote:Yo, Muffin, back up your gak more - because I'm not unvoting you

Implying I give a flying fuck.

You got caught. You've been asked like 15 times to back up your retarded case on Shiro but you can't do it. Gee, I wonder why that is?
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