Mini 462: Just another game of Mafia... over

[Tarhalindur]

ok, day hasn't stared yet, so i'll just use the time to introduce myself,
since this is my first game here, and you all prob. know each other to some extent..

just a few of things you need to know about me and my style of play:
most important thing - > english is not my native language, so if i sound weird (probably cause i couldn't find the right word to express myself) or i suck at grammar, that's the reason.
i'm 22 years old student,

and my style is aggressive, i'll jump on bandwagons all the time in the beginning cause i think it's useful for town

.
i have a lot of experience in live mafia, but this is my first online game.
enough for now.

my first random vote -> when game officially begins.

have fun and enjoy the game guys

I think I'm going to like you.

[Tarhalindur]

No, thanks. That seems like a bad idea to me.

Bandwagoning = good

Speedlynching = bad

That is all.

[Tarhalindur]

well, one thing i learned about mafia:

setting rules = bad

because any rule we set as "good" scum can follow and stay under the radar.. so, now i won't bandwagon.. or i will. more rules and scum will feel more confident .
and all these rules are just WIFOM at best.

oh, and btw, i'm from belgrade, serbia.

I prefer to think of statements such as "bandwagoning = good, speedlynching = bad" as metagame observations instead of rules.

In other words, they're not so much "you shouldn't do this. ever." as "failure to conform with this observation can be considered a scumtell", typically because the end result of not conforming is anti-town. For example, failure to bandwagon is bad for the town as it lets scum lurk in the shadows to evade detection, and speedlynching is bad for the town because it typically causes the death of a pro-town player while curtailing discussion about the lynch.

On a more light-hearted track - you're from Belgrade? Interesting. (tries.... to... refrain... from... Kosovo... references... oops, too late. )

[Tarhalindur]

Original Roll String: 1d12

1 12-Sided Dice: (7) = 7

[/dice]

[Tarhalindur]

The dice have spoken.

Random

Vote: Nekka-Lucifer

.

[Tarhalindur]

Wait a minute, Falcone's in this game?

I feel the urge to

Unvote: Nekka-Lucifer, random Vote: Falcone

for being in Newb 399 with me.

(Psst... Jenter... if my name's confusing you, I recommend using Tar for short.)

[Tarhalindur]

Ahh, ok.. I'm here now.

I've got suspicions on 3 players; names I will not say for the moment unless they start acting abit more town.

I don't like random votes anymore, so I will stick to waiting for good proof and linking it through stuff... (If anyone understands me, please say, because I don't (I do))

I'd like to hear the names, if you will - the only player I'm finding suspicious in any way other than a general sense of "possible scum until proven otherwise" is ac1983fan, and that's just for lurking. Some actual information to discuss would be welcome.

Where is ac? He still hasn't posted.

That's a good question. I've seen him posting elsewhere on the site, but not here.

I'll give ac a pass for today - mnowax only posted the game start post yesterday, after all - but if he hasn't posted by tomorrow, I'll ask for a prod on him. In the meantime, I'll

FoS: ac1983fan

- his absence isn't quite vote-worthy yet, IMO, but it's definitely starting to get irritating.

[Tarhalindur]

why did you suspect khelvaster in post 36

just a hunch i got from reading page1. nothing i could back up right now.

why the sudden change of heart about Nekka (posts 45 vs 48 & 50)?

nope.
no "change of hearts".
i felt like he's protown right away, and that's why i said "
you are doing nothing usefull to the town" when i placed my vote, and not "you're scum"
that vote was just a way of making him stop, 'cause i felt we're milking the dead cow.

and we still got nothing people
(at least that's my opinion)

Something bugs me about your reasoning here.

You say that you had "no change of hearts", and that you "felt like he's pro-town right away", but in the same post you say that Nekka-Lucifer is "doing nothing usefull to the town", which I read as "is acting scummy". Given that, why do you think Nekka-Lucifer is town? Moreover, why vote for Nekka-Lucifer if you feel that he's pro-town? Just telling him to stop and explaining why he should stop should be enough to let him know that he needs to change what he's doing.

Could you explain yourself further, please? I approve of you trying to spark discussion, but with the explanations you've given are making you look scummy in the process.

Minor FoS: hand banana

pending further explanation.

Oh, and given that the thread's been up since Wednesday and effectively open since Thursday, can we have a

Mod Prod

on ac1983fan?

[Tarhalindur]

doing nothing useful to the town", which I read as "is acting scummy"

no, it isn't the same.
doing nothing useful for the town meant to sound like

"i think you're pro-town and you're channeling discussion into a dead end"

, that's all. vote was my way of pressuring him. he reacted the way he did, and i felt there was no need too keep my vote on him any more.
i will not explain this any further.

There's the kind of explanation I was looking for.

UnFoS: hand banana

(Since English isn't your native language - for future reference, with English syntax "doing nothing useful to the town" could be intrepreted to mean either "you look pro-town to me, but your posting isn't helping the town" or "you look scummy to me, but I don't really want to call you out on it".)

oh, and

FoS: Tarhalindur

for trying to revive completely useless and finished discussion. it is very clear to everyone what i wanted to do, and it's also clear what NLucifer wanted to do.
move on.

But is that what the town wants? Is it in the town's best interest to move on? I find it difficult to accept that we should just ignore unusual and/or scummy behavior simply because one or two people want to move on.

[Tarhalindur]

FoS:HandBanana

No discussion in a mafia game is ever dead. We simply move on. One can always ask questions and re-discuss the conversation to further understand or prove a point. Your offense to this a very scummy, especially because you are an aggressive player. Generally aggressive players never throw anything out because they want as much ammo as possible.

FoS Tarhilindur

for not pointing the above out. You should never accept, "that discussion is over" as an answer. I'm mulling over the idea that you and hand banana are distancing each other, because you seem to be appearing to attack rather then actually making an point.

Nekka, post something useful.

*cough*

But is that what the town wants? Is it in the town's best interest to move on? I find it difficult to accept that we should just ignore unusual and/or scummy behavior simply because one or two people want to move on.

What's this about not pointing out that discussion is over (or, at least, set aside) only when the town decides that is wise?

Or are you really asking "why aren't you attacking hand banana for his "discussion is over" comment? (A: hand banana's play so far looks like the aggressive pro-town play I've seen in other games - given that and his statement that he likes to play aggressively, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for now.)

------------------------

I'd like to take a closer look at Nekka-Lucifer, myself. I don't like how he said that he had suspicions on three people, then backtracked and told us that there was only one person he suspected. Moreover, I find Nekka-Lucifer's apparent reluctance to reveal who he suspected scummy, especially since 5-6 players had posted in favor of him revealing his suspicions. Finally, I'm getting really concerned about Nekka's recent tendency to post random commentary instead of offering actual thoughts about the game - we're out of the random voting stage, you know.

Unvote: Falcone, Vote: Nekka

[Tarhalindur]

I'm sorry for having been so confusing. I voted the lurker because I didn't want you guys thinking I was indecisive or lurking, then handbanana pointed out that lurker hunting isn't a good thing.

wait...my bad. Was it nekka who didn't want to hunt lurkers? I wholeheartedly agree with that now that I think about it. I was just pretty much panicking and trying to contribute something so people wouldn't think I was lurking.

These posts raised red flags for me. It seems to me like Khelvaster's really saying "I was lurking and/or indecisive, but I didn't want people to realize that, so I voted the lurker."

Khelvaster, why would you be worried by people thinking that you're lurking? Moreover, why did you decide to attack a lurker instead of posting actual content?

Unvote: Falcone, Vote: Khelvaster

.

[Tarhalindur]

Because I didn't know what else to do. There really isn't anyone being scummy yet, and I felt bad just sitting back, so I attacked a lurker to try and do something.

Okay, that makes sense to me. I can live with that explanation for now.

The more important question, however, was the one you didn't answer.

So, do tell me Khelvaster, why would you be worried by people thinking that you're lurking?

[Tarhalindur]

The more important question, however, was the one you didn't answer.

So, do tell me Khelvaster, why would you be worried by people thinking that you're lurking?

Because if people think I'm lurking, I will seem more scummy than if I am not lurking. I think you're forgetting, town-aligned people don't want to look any scummier than scum-aligned people do.

Or, in other words, "players don't want to look scummy". You have a point there. I'm still a bit concerned about you - IMO, voting for lurkers after 2 RL days is a rather scummy - but I can see why a town player might decide to go after lurkers as well.

Unvote: Khelvaster, FoS: Khelvaster

[Tarhalindur]

it seems you have partially neglected to explain (or you didn't see the post)

i don' feel like explaining that again. re-read the game.

-----
about Khelvaster: i re-read the game and at this point, i do believe him.

i don't think scum would be so careless and make a contradiction to himself this early in the game. you need more content to find scum inconsistencies.
i also think we need more pro-town players in this discussion, cause i feel that all 3 scum (i guess mod didn't do something wild, so there are 3 of them) are actively participating, and we won't be able to do much in a situation like that.

well, i was reading one game here (mini 443) and kinda decided to try something new..

Before hand banana's latest posts, my gut feeling was that hand banana was likely aggressive town, because he claimed that he prefers to play aggressively as town and his early actions made at least as much sense for a newb aggressive townie as they did for scum.

After these posts, however, I'm starting to like the case on hand banana. I can't see how hand banana thinks that his recent actions are helping the town find scum. I don't like how he's effectively admitting that he's not really playing aggressively in this game, especially since he stated early in the thread that he thinks aggressive play helps the town find scum. Most importantly, I can't think of a reason why a pro-town hand banana would think that refusing to explain something because he didn't feel like it is beneficial to the town. (If you've explained something earlier in the thread, the pro-town course of action is to point to the post where you explained earlier, not to refuse to explain again because you don't feel like it.)

Hand banana, I want you to answer Nekka-Lucifer's questions. Moreover, I want you to give a good explanation of why you think that refusing to give an explanation "because I don't feel like" could possibly be considered acceptable, much less good for the town. Finally, I want you to explain why you decided to be less aggressive in this game when you stated at the beginning of the game that you thought that aggressive play helped the town find scum.

FoS: hand banana

. This will be upgraded to a vote if you treat my questions the same way you treated Nekka's inquiries.

[Tarhalindur]

You realise you will almost certainly get NK'd now? We may well not have a doc at all, or a cop for that matter.

Or the mafia could have a roleblocker, in which case you're likely to be RB'ed into oblivion.

[Tarhalindur]

First off, if he is gonna play this, I'm gonna name people and they need to claim game and reveal power roles I want to be more certain then Hand Banana is vig. On top of that if he is gonna go around having power roles claim and such I'd rather have the vig lynched, because that is a terrible strategy. Might as well mas claim and see where that gets us. I'm 100% against this strategy regardless of the townness.

AlSleet, please tell me how I have been Inconsistent. I have been logical and aggressive the entire game. This is twice you have said something false about me. Why are you slandering me?

FoS:AlSleet

What. The. Heck?!

You're asking the town to just out power roles. You're asking us to lynch an uncounterclaimed vig (he may have been playing stupidly, but he is an uncounterclaimed vig). You're asking for a massclaim on day 1 when I see no way that could benefit the town. And you're using an appeal to emotion to accuse AlSleet of using an appeal to emotion (pot, meet kettle much?).

There is no way I'm going to ignore such blatantly scummy behavior without a really good explanation for it.

Vote: Panzerjager

[Tarhalindur]

HANDBANANA was the one who suggested he name people. I said mass claim because I figured you'd get the sarcasm because I was going on about how terrible the idea was. I think the claim is bullshit, and uncounterclaimed or not, it doesn't matter. Not every town has a vig especially in Normal mini's. Did you miss the part where I said "I am 100% AGAINST this strategy." I also said if he wants to go around and out power roles. I'd rather have him lynched because Cop/Doc are far more important then vig. Winning with out a vig is easy; winning without a cop or doc is far harder.

I misread your post; to me, it looked like you were actually advocating a mass claim. I sometimes find it difficult to distinguish from text alone between someone using ad absurdum logic to attack a bad plan and someone who's actually advocating the absurd action that his ad absurdum logic would suggest.

However, I still don't like how you seem to be advocating that we lynch an uncounterclaimed vig, and I really don't like your post 138:

EDWOP: FoS: Tarhalindur for actually reading my post and then saying that I am confirmed scum.

Where in my post 134 did you get the impression that I was calling you confirmed scum? I did NOT say that you were confirmed scum, I said that I found your actions in post 132 blatantly scummy (due to a misinterpretation), and asked for an explanation. There's a difference.

Unless you can offer a good explanation for why you claimed that I was calling you "confirmed scum", I think I'll keep my vote.

[Tarhalindur]

It felt like you were calling me confirmed scum.

I don't like attacks based on feelings, especially OMGUS attacks. Can you explain why it felt like I was calling you confirmed scum?

[Tarhalindur]

Because I read what you wrote but it registered as you are confirmed scum.

In other words, you misinterpreted what I wrote. That's what I was checking for.

I still don't like your tone over the course of this game, panzer, but your explanation for your posts 132 and 138 makes sense to me and I can't find anything else you've done that's voteworthy.

Unvote, IGMEOY: Panzerjager

Hand banana: Why are you ignoring the town's wishes about whether or not you should use your vig? And why are you still advocating that the town go along with a course of action that's quite likely to out our power roles?

You're an uncounterclaimed vig, yes, but you said yourself that a poorly played vig could work to the detriment of the town... and yes, I'd consider the course of action you're advocating poor play for a vig.

[Tarhalindur]

Hand banana's play has become so strange that the only reason I'm not voting him is because he's an uncounterclaimed vig. He seems dead-set to enact a plan that is, in my opinion, very anti-town (especially since it's likely to out most or all of our power roles), ignoring the town's wishes in the process (for future reference, it is my opinion that there are probably 1-2 scum hiding in the group of less-than-active players), and he's OMGUS'ing anyone who speaks out against his plan to boot.

IMO, hand banana is either lying scum or a vig who is playing *very* poorly (and hand banana is right that a poorly played vig can be a liability to the town). I'm not sure, however, if the benefit of taking out a probable liability to the town is worth the risk of potentially losing our vig on Day 1.

[Tarhalindur]

and you call yourself pro town?

Do I consider myself pro-town? Yes.

Should you just take my word that I'm pro-town and not look into me further? Absolutely not.

What about you, hand banana? I don't like how you're OMGUS'ing anyone who seems to disagree with you, nor do I like how you're using ad hominem attacks to do so.

(especially since it's likely to out most or all of our power roles

wrong.
i will ask for claim only 1 person per day.
and if i hadn't claimed that one would be the one i killed.
so, i don't see how this damages the town.
outing a power role is much better than killing it, like other vigs did in games i read here.

Seeing as you're a power role yourself, outing another power role makes it likely that we lose at least one power role the following night. Think about it - if you force a power role to claim, then there are two known power roles the following night. I would be extremely surprised if there is more than one doc in the game, so at most one of those power roles can be protected the following night. In all likelihood, the mafia will wind up killing the power role that isn't protected.

Add an SK or a doc claim into the mix, and losing a power role becomes almost certain (if there's an SK, then there are two NK's floating around and in general docs can only protect against 1 NK per night; if there's a doc claim, then the doc probably dies that night since docs usually can't self-protect).

and btw, i don't think i'm going to make many mistakes when i ask for claim.

It doesn't matter if you think that you're going to make mistakes when you ask for a claim; all that matters is whether or not you *do* make mistakes when you ask for claim.

so tell me, what is exactly wrong with my plan?
if you have a better one, go ahead and tell us..

Here's a plan for you - we, as a town decide whether or not we should vig someone tonight, and if so who. Once night comes around, you carry out the town's wishes by vigging whoever the town decided to kill (if anyone).

[Tarhalindur]

This situation is really uncertain. I think it'd be stupid to lynch him today for the chance that he as a vigilante, but, on the other hand, it'd be too risky toget all the power roles out there. I'm leaning towards a situation where he's getting a free ride through the game by trying to lull us all into a sense that it'd be too much of a risk to lynch him despite his anti-town behavior. I think we'll just have to see what happens in the first night though.

I've got a question that might help us decide where to go from here.

At this point, my opinion is that if hand banana is, in fact the vig, then he is effectively a forced/overeager vig (i.e, a vig that has to fire every night), especially since IMO revealing power roles is almost as bad as killing them off. From what I've seen in past games, forced vigs tend to be a liability to the town - they don't have the option of just not firing, so they often wind up shooting at vaguely scummy players who turn out to be power roles.

My question for everyone is, is it in the best interests of the town to lynch a claimed forced vig on Day 1, given that a forced vig is a town power role that is known to backfire horribly on the town?

[Tarhalindur]

My question for everyone is, is it in the best interests of the town to lynch a claimed forced vig on Day 1, given that a forced vig is a town power role that is known to backfire horribly on the town?

haha.. damn this is scummy.
my role doesn't say anything about "forced" killing, so i guess i don't have to kill if i don't want to.
and i will not decide for myself. i will count the votes from he people that are not my suspects or a liability.

I didn't say that you were actually a forced vig, I said that (up until your post 197, which I didn't notice until after I posted that) you were pushing for a plan that would effectively make you a forced vig. There is a difference.

That said, it seems that you are finally behaving in a pro-town manner. As long as you are effectively a second lynch, we no longer have to worry about you (since if you are SK or mafia you either have to go along with the town's decision or get lynched).

UnFoS: hand banana

[Tarhalindur]

I'd just like to raise a point that we have a big problem: we've had 9 pages so far and we're not close to lynching anyone. We can't lynch handbanana yet because it would be way too risky to lynch a noncounterclaimed power role. The situation has been distracting us way too long and I think we need to move away from it because I don't much further can come from it until day 2. So I'd like to see whom, other than handbanana, everyone finds suspicious and hopefully some discussion will come from it and we'll come closer to eliminating scum.

I agree with you here, AlSleet. Maybe it's time to try something here that I've tried before when a game stalled...

Given the rampant lurking and how little information we actually have, I think what we need is a new topic of discussion. In light of this, I propose that we use one of the best known of all discussion generators - the Top 3 Scum List. Here's how it works: everyone posts the three people they feel are most likely to be scum, and gives reasons why they feel that way.

Sound good? I'll start us off. Tarhalindur's Top 3 Scum List:

T1) Khelvaster. He's one of a couple of players who I've been suspicious of for a while. I don't like how you seemed to be lurker hunting earlier in the day, nor do I like how you immediately agreed with Panzerjager when he FoS'ed the lurker hunters (especially since you were effectively agreeing with him FoS'ing yourself). I'm concerned about your claim that I've been "laying low most of the game and rearing my ugly head to get a quick lynch" - my gut feeling up until the page before hand banana claimed was that hand banana was likely an aggressive townie (as I pointed out at least one or two times earlier in the thread) and with all the conversation revolving around hand banana I found it difficult to make a case against anyone else. (IMO, this is also a case of "pot calling the kettle black"; as far as I can see, Khelvaster has also been staying under the radar most of the game, despite a few questionable acts such as his lurker hunt earlier in the Day.) Finally, I'm disturbed by how you claim that I've been "consistently trying to take down an uncounterclaimed vig", since that's not the case for reasons that I'll explain below - if anyone's guilty of pushing a lynch on an uncounterclaimed vig, it's Panzerjager, who's been pushing the "hand banana is SK" theory rather vigorously as of late.

Speaking of Panzerjager...

T1) Panzerjager. Outside of his recent posts pushing the "hand banana is SK" theory, I can't find anything in Panzerjager's posts that I can make a proper case on. Despite that, my gut feeling is that Panzerjager is likely scum. I can't put a finger on it, but he seems to radiate an aura of scumminess that's distracting the town while keeping him out of the town's eye.

3) hand banana. As I've previously noted, at the moment the *only* thing that's kept me from voting you has been that you're an uncounterclaimed vig. Even that hasn't really put my mind at ease about you, because I have deep reservations about vigs who fire blindly and don't listen to the town's consensus (i.e, "Azwolging" vigs), to the extent that IMO the main difference between an Azwolging vig and an SK is that the Azwolging vig counts as a pro-town player in endgame.

That said, you *are* an uncounterclaimed vig, and you've recently agreed to follow the wishes of the town when deciding whether and who to vig (this is critical, as you were #1 on my scum list despite your claim until you agreed to follow the town's wishes). Regardless of your true alignment, you can wait until tomorrow.

Since there are two people in the game that I find about equally scummy, I won't vote either of them until I've made up my mind as to which is more likely to be scum.

FoS: Khelvaster

I'd FoS Panzerjager too, except that I still have an FoS (and IGMEOY) on him from earlier.

[Tarhalindur]

Unvote, Vote:Khelvaster

I have a stack of reasons but between not paying attention and being a hypocrite I can stick my vote on him comfortably without having to put all my reasons out there yet.

I'd rather see your stack of reasons...

I agree, Panzerjager should post his reasons for voting Khelvaster, as should Falcone (who also posted along the lines of "I have more reasons, but I'd rather wait before explaining").

In addition, I'd like some additional explanation from Khelvaster (in particular: Khelvaster, which post gave you the impression that I was pushing for a hand banana lynch?). Khelvaster's "oops, my bad, unvote" and his failure to follow through with his reasoning and vote for the person that has been attacking an uncounterclaimed vig (Panzer, who seems to think that hand banana is SK) makes me wonder if he's scum who was trying to lynch a townie based on a flawed premise and is trying to back off now that he got called on it.

Anyway, generally this game's confusuing me at the moment. As I can't see any way of distinguishing wether Banana's an SK, Scum, or Vig, Panzer please explain why he is so definitely an SK? Surely if he was SK he would try and lie low and not give out details about his NK abilities.

Khelvaster, your pinning that on Tar was idiotic, since Pan was the one pushing for the lynch.

Also, I'm worried about us playing a 12-man game with 9 players. There's a very good chance that one of them is either scum or power role.

Question; How many Power roles do you think we are likely to have in this game?

I'd estimate three or four power roles, possibly five if we have masons.

My biggest concern regarding power roles is that I very much doubt that we have cop+doc+vig without a scum role (probably Mafia RBer/redirector or SK) that can neutralize that trio, since cop+doc+vig with no way for the scum to counter that trio is imbalanced in favor of the town.

[Tarhalindur]

Just one thing FOR NOW, are Masons any useful to the town (seeming we have any)

That depends on whether their innocence is mod-confirmed or not. Mod-confirmed innocent masons are effectively a pair of mod-confirmed pro-town players that can vouch for each other, and as such are very useful to the town (doubly so if there is an SK running around, since mod-confirmed masons limit the number of unconfirmed players in endgame and a therefore an extreme threat to SK, second only to the vig). By way of contrast, unconfirmed masons are a minor help to the town at best, since the mason traitor is a well-known role that can allow a mafioso to glide through the game unchallenged.

[Tarhalindur]

I'd rather let the whole hand banana/Panzer arguments slide for the time being - hand banana and Panzer have brought enough suspicion upon themselves that the situation is very likely to clear up overnight (due to cop investigations and/or NK's), and as such my opinion is that we should wait for tomorrow before dealing with either of them.

In light of this situation, I went back and did a PBPA on Khelvaster:

Post 3:

mull my townspeople? What's that mean? :p

Post 5:

Just for that reasonable interpretation, Vote: Nekka-Lucifer :p

Post 8:

Unvote

That vote was a joke. Just in case it actually would count, i'm unvoting :p

Post 10:

Hand Banana: If you need help translating something or don't know what a word means, use google translator. The website is http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en . By the way, where are you from?

Post 18:

FoS: Handbanana

If the townie's scum, saying they are very aggresive would be an excuse for BWing. It just sounds wierd.

Post 28:

flubadubdub, wonder how this game will go.

Nothing of real substance here (unsurprising, since this comes from the random voting stage of the game), but his lighthearted, joking manner is noteworthy - IMO, it's a minor scumtell.

Post 33:

For not having posted yet

Unvote, vote: ac1983fan

Khelvaster seems to go on a lurker hunt here... which would be fine except that the game had only really started a day ago and the town already had a topic of discussion in Nekka-Lucifer's suspicion list.

I also don't like how Khelvaster elects to vote for a lurker *prior* to asking for a mod prod.

Post 38:

Where is ac? He still hasn't posted.

Khelvaster's still lurker hunting, and still not asking for a mod prod.

Post 42:

That sounds fine to me. If you think someone's scum, it's best to let them go on showing scumtells than to tell them what to correct. Panzerjager, your argument against this isn't very good.

Khelvaster's subtle support of Nekka-Lucifer's anti-town decision to withhold the names of the people (well, person) he suspected is noteworthy.

Post 51:

nekka definitely seems like an inexperienced townie to me.

This post caught my eye when I looked at it in the context of Khelvaster's post 42 and his later posts 91 and 126. I think I may know what's going on here, but I do not want to elaborate on this unless Khelvaster is forced to claim at some point in the future. Suffice it to say that I saw something here that should make it easier for me to decide if Khelvaster is telling the truth if/when he does claim.

Post 63:

good point with the fos: lurker hunting. Scum tend not to be absolute lurkers.

Here Khelvaster seems to contradict himself - despite his own hunting for lurkers earlier (indeed, note that he was the *only* person to actually vote acfan for lurking), he agrees with Panzer's FoS: lurker hunters. That's a scumtell by my book.

Post 91:

I'm sorry for having been so confusing. I voted the lurker because I didn't want you guys thinking I was indecisive or lurking, then handbanana pointed out that lurker hunting isn't a good thing.

Unvote if I haven't already.

Apologizing for being scummy is a scumtell itself, IMO.

Post 93:

wait...my bad. Was it nekka who didn't want to hunt lurkers? I wholeheartedly agree with that now that I think about it. I was just pretty much panicking and trying to contribute something so people wouldn't think I was lurking.

Here Khelvaster tries to explain himself. I find the explanation he gives scummy and ask for additional explanation shortly thereafter.

Post 96:

Because I didn't know what else to do. There really isn't anyone being scummy yet, and I felt bad just sitting back, so I attacked a lurker to try and do something.

Post 100:

Because if people think I'm lurking, I will seem more scummy than if I am not lurking. I think you're forgetting, town-aligned people don't want to look any scummier than scum-aligned people do.

I've grouped these two posts together because both of them represent Khelvaster explaining himself more fully in response to my requests for additional explanation. In light of Khelvaster's early belief that Nekka-Lucifer is town, I am still inclined to consider these explanations acceptable - one of the few things in Khelvaster's play that I can't find fault with.

Post 104:

You feel like they are all very active, implying you know who they are all

I don't really like this, but that's mainly because I consider trying to evaluate possible scum groupings as a moderate pro-town tell (one of the main reasons I thought that hand banana was likely pro-town up until the actions that led to my Post 120).

Post 113:

if the mod isn't replacing them, they probably answered the prod and are lurking as part of a strategy. These lurkers are most likely scum or power roles.

Regarding Hand Banana, he could be scum, or he could just be a noob. I can't find a way to defend him, but I don't want to take part in his lynch either. I am undecided about him.

Speculating on the identity of power roles is scummy, since it makes it easier for the scum to find and destroy them. Also, second-guessing the mod is bad, 'mkay? (Especially when the mod pays as little attention to the thread as mnowax does...)

Khelvaster's indecision about hand banana is interesting, especially given the "but I don't want to take part in his lynch" comment. Could he be scum who doesn't want to be seen on the wagon of a player he knows is pro-town?

Post 117:

This post doesn't strike me right. There is no way to even come close to truly assigning percentages that people are scum...Did you know 83% of statistics are made up?

Hand banana phrased his list of suspicions poorly, but I still like how he's been clear about who he suspects for most of the game (one of the strongest non-claim related points in his favor). What would you prefer that hand banana have done, Khelvaster? Would you have preferred that he post his list of suspects without using percentages? Or would you have preferred that he not post a list of suspects at all?

Post 123:

Hand Banana: I think many people believe that even if you turn out to be town, you are the least helpful townie we have, so it won't be that big of a loss.

My opinion is that the town should always lynch the player whose death is most likely to help the town find scum, rather than the player who has been the least helpful to the town. This distinction doesn't come up frequently (since the player who's most likely to help the town find scum and the player who's been least helpful to the town are often one and the same), but it's worth keeping in mind.

Post 124:

Can you at least try and defend yourself when people say things? Repeating yourself is better than saying "I already said this."

^^^^ I forgot to put that in my last post.

Another one of the very few Khelvaster posts that I can't find a fault with (or, at least I can't find a fault with it without starting on a path that leads to worlds of WIFOM).

Post 126:

Oh...I didn't know that. Thanks.

See post 42.

Post 129:

What if the person you name is the real doc or cop...

Khelvaster's pointing out the obvious (something both town and scum would have reason to do - town wants to prevent outing its power roles, scum wants to look pro-town and want to reduce the possibility that hand banana's plan will lead to a scum being randomly gunned down). Null tell.

Post 152:

I almost want to lynch Hand Banana...I feel unsafe with him as our vig. He isn't scummy, but the way he's acting makes me feel really bad about his judgement to hit scum instead of townies at night. He apparently read through Tapioca mafia...in that game, the vig nailed a townie night 1 and a doc night 2. Despite this, we could just tell him not to kill anyone. That would weaken him down to a townie, but it would be better IMO than losing a townie.

Anyway, I am seeing something awkward about Panzer's posts. I don't know if it's just paranoia, so for now IGMEOY, Panzer. I'll need to reread posts to find something substantial.

This post is critical. To my eyes, Khelvaster is subtly advocating lynching a claimed vig. More to the point, he says "I feel unsafe with him as our vig". Note the lack of a qualifier in that statement - the only players who could know for sure whether or not hand banana is scum are the scum themselves.

Post 167:

He kept himself safe from mafia until doc dies by claiming. The mafia won't hit him, since the question of whether he would die is left open. A doc, if he exists, will definitely offer him protection.

There could be a Mafia RB'er (in which case the scum can deal with him regardless of doc protection). There might not be a doc. There might be an SK along with the mafia, in which case there's a good chance that hand banana gets doublekilled (since docs usually only protect from the first kill).

Saying "the mafia won't hit him" is foolish and, more importantly, WIFOM.

Post 171:

Mod: Votecount please

Asking for a vote count without posting content at the same time is, IMO, a minor scumtell.

Post 181:

Vote: Nekka

No need to be so freaking hostile to the newbie. If we get two kills tonight, then hand banana is vig. If we get one kill, then hand banana is scum. It's that simple. I highly doubt the existance of a mafia roleblocker because of the small size of the game. Nekka is trying to quicklynch a claimed vig, and that is absolutely unacceptable.

Let's set aside the sudden reversal on Nekka for now and note that Khelvaster now claims that Nekka's continued attack on hand banana despite hand banana's vig claim is "absolutely unacceptable"... after Khelvaster did much the same thing in Post 152 (albeit more subtly). Anyone else see the contradiction here?

Post 182:

I forget the edit acronym, so yeah...adding to my last pos23t.

I mentioned Panzer in an earlier post--I'll look at him more on d2. Nekka's actions are much worse than Panzer's. There isn't much to go on d1, but I think attempting to lynch the vig is a terrible offense. I got lynched for doing that on d1 in Tapioca mafia, and I was scum.

I'll say preemptively to Nekka and his inevitable OMGUS argument: don't give me any crap about this being a WIFOM accusation. No sane townie would go out of their way to try and lynch a vig. Instead, the townie would want to wait until d2 to see what comes of the vig's claim. Zero tolerance is the only way to go for trying to lynch unchallenged, claimed pro-town power roles day 1.

Again - Khelvaster is attacking Nekka for continuing to attack hand banana,

despite attacking hand banana himself in post 152 when hand banana had claimed in post 127

. That's a player contradicting his own posts, and IMO it's lynch-worthy.

Post 3:

Vote: Tarhalindur

Tar is the only person I've seen who is continuously trying to take down a claimed, unchallenged vig. That is not good in my book.

Once again, Khelvaster is contradicting his earlier posts... twice.

First, he claims that I'm the only person he's seen who "is continuously trying to take down an uncounterclaimed vig". Not only is that wrong (the only player who might be guilty of that offense is Panzerjager), but that contradicts his posts 181/182, where he attacked Nekka for doing the

exact same thing

.

Second, he's once again attacking a player for attacking an uncounterclaimed vig,

despite his own attack on said uncounterclaimed vig in post 152

. Not only is he contradicting himself, he's doing so repeatedly. Contradicting yourself is bad enough, but contradicting yourself three times, and repeating the contradiction over multiple posts?

Vote: Khelvaster

Post 212:

Tar is also using an argument for lynch that is definitely a scumtell. He is saying the claimed vig is an inexperienced forced vig, and therefore we should lynch him. Tar has lain low most of the game--he now reared his ugly head to try and get a quick lynch.

Pot, meet kettle much? IMO, if any of our active players is popping up only to try and get a quick lynch, it's you - you've been flying under the radar for most of the game, and when you've popped up you've either been lurker hunting or attacking people for things that you've done yourself (i.e, contradicting yourself).

Post 213:

My bad...I shouldn't post so late at night...

Unvote: tar

"My bad" does not an explanation make.[/yodaspeak]

Post 238:

They're onto me because I made a sloppy play by mixing up tar and panzer. I backed out of that as soon as someone pointed it out to me--apparently fixing mistakes is a scumtell now.

Leaving out the OMGUS aspects of this post - no, your tar/panzer mix-up is not the only reason why you're being bandwagoned. It's one of the reasons, yes, but not the main reason. The main reason you're being bandwagoned is because you've been contradicting yourself on multiple points. Other valid points against you include your early lurker hunting when there was already discussion going on and your failure to attack the people who have actually been attacking a claimed vig after attacking someone who wasn't attacking said vig

because you were mixing up their posts

(i.e, if "pushing for a lynch on an uncounterclaimed vig" is scummy when you think I do it, why aren't you attacking panzerjager when he actually admits to pushing said lynch?).

[Tarhalindur]

The crumb is in post 23 if you filter through only my posts. Notice that in my post 26 I confirm there is a crumb to be found in 23. If someone finds it, I will ask them to please not reveal my role, since that would make me the scum target of tonight (unless we have a doc.)

For future reference, "post 23" and "post 26" in the Khelvaster-only view should be posts 152 and 181 in the main thread. Maybe I'm just being obtuse, but I can't find any breadcrumbing in those posts...

Nekka-Lucifer

: In your opinion, is Khelvaster telling the truth about being a town power role or not? I have reasons for asking, but due to the nature of said reasons I need to know the answer to this question before I reveal why I asked it.

[Tarhalindur]

Khelvaster, I need you to clarify something here:

From what I can tell, you're claiming that you breadcrumbed in Post 152:

I almost want to lynch Hand Banana...I feel unsafe with him as our vig. He isn't scummy, but the way he's acting makes me feel really bad about his judgement to hit scum instead of townies at night. He apparently read through Tapioca mafia...in that game, the vig nailed a townie night 1 and a doc night 2. Despite this, we could just tell him not to kill anyone. That would weaken him down to a townie, but it would be better IMO than losing a townie.

Anyway, I am seeing something awkward about Panzer's posts. I don't know if it's just paranoia, so for now IGMEOY, Panzer. I'll need to reread posts to find something substantial.

and confirmed it in Post 181:

Vote: Nekka

No need to be so freaking hostile to the newbie. If we get two kills tonight, then hand banana is vig. If we get one kill, then hand banana is scum. It's that simple. I highly doubt the existance of a mafia roleblocker because of the small size of the game. Nekka is trying to quicklynch a claimed vig, and that is absolutely unacceptable.

Am I looking at the right posts, Khelvaster? I have a reason for asking, but revealing said reason before I get my answer(s) would prevent me from getting any useable information from this.

------------------

Let's try this again:

Nekka-Lucifer, in your opinion, is Khelvaster telling the truth about being a town power role or not? I have reasons for asking, but due to the nature of said reasons I need to know the answer to this question before I reveal why I asked it.

[Tarhalindur]

Hold it. I just realized that Khelvaster's second breadcrumb is in post 182 (his *27th* post in this game), not 181. Khel's 182 is an EPWOP, so I can't be sure, but I *think* I know what Khel's been subclaiming.

Khel

, are you lumping some of your posts together? Specifically, are you counting your 182 as part of your 181 (since it's an EPWOP) or not? I need to know.

[Tarhalindur]

No, sorry, can't find it.

I'll

unvote

anyway. Seriously, this game is confusing me really badly. Sorry I'm being so little use, but it's a steep learning curve for me.

Khelvaster's post 298 makes it very clear that he's claiming cop.

I'm a little mistrustful of the cop claim (it's not too hard for a mafioso to claim cop and start claiming innocent results on players who are known to be pro-town - after all, if they get called out on it, they can bus a scumbuddy...), but the fact remains that Khelvaster is, for the time being, an uncounterclaimed cop, and we shouldn't lynch an uncounterclaimed cop on Day 1.

Unvote

I would vote Panzerjager now, but he's got 4 votes already, two of which are from players who are likely to be replaced (roland's random vote and elias's vote from several pages back). FAKEVOTE: Panzerjager pending replacements.

I'll look at getting up a PBPA on Panzerjager later tonight.

[Tarhalindur]

Now that I've got it finished (there's this thing called "life offline", and let me tell you, it is a *****), here's that PBPA on Panzer:

Post 7:

stop talking. Day has Not started.

Post 14:

woohoo, bandwagoning peoples? Lets quick lynch roland.

Early game posts, included for completeness. I am somewhat interested in Panzer's "let's quick lynch roland" comment (IMO, joking about scummy actions in the early game is a minor scumtell).

Post 41:

I've got suspicions on 3 players; names I will not say for the moment unless they start acting abit more town.

Okay, I understand you are new, but you shouldn't do this. You shouldn't say your suspicious and then not name those who you are suspicious of. Be straight forward with your suspicions. Plus if you are townie, you generally shouldn't be witholding information(exceptions for power roles).

P.S please don't claim cop or doc at this moment.


P.S.S I would like to OMGUS Vote:Roland for voting me and quoting my pre-game joke.

I like how Panzer is trying to get Nekka to elaborate on his suspicions. I don't like the OMGUS random vote (again, IMO joking about anti-town actions is a minor scum tell, somewhat more so when the joke concerns
a player as experienced as roland). I especially don't like his "P.S. please don't claim cop or doc at this moment" comment - to me, it looks like he's subtly fishing for power roles while including this comment to cover his tracks should he be called out on it.

Post 43:

It's not an argument, it's a suggestion. And you don't tell someone to "correct" their scumtells. You tell them they are scummy and to explain why they have taken that course of action or that route of logic.

This seems very pro-town to me.

Post 59:

This is Nekka's second or third game.

Nekka did you get the reactions you wanted? Who did you get them from? Any new suspicions?

I like what Panzer is trying to do here.

Post 61:

Game has been open 2 days. FOS people lurker hunting

I don't really agree with Panzer's FoS, largely because the thread had been opened for a couple of days prior to the official start of the game. In my opinion, it is okay to ask for prods and FoS lurkers when the thread has been open for a few days (though IMO voting for lurkers should wait until after the lurkers have been prodded).

Post 66:

FoS:HandBanana No discussion in a mafia game is ever dead. We simply move on. One can always ask questions and re-discuss the conversation to further understand or prove a point. Your offense to this a very scummy, especially because you are an aggressive player. Generally aggressive players never throw anything out because they want as much ammo as possible.

FoS Tarhilindur for not pointing the above out. You should never accept, "that discussion is over" as an answer. I'm mulling over the idea that you and hand banana are distancing each other, because you seem to be appearing to attack rather then actually making an point.

Nekka, post something useful.

Here, Panzerjager attacks hand banana for his "i will not explain this any further." comments in post 62. He then goes on to attack me for accepting "that discussion is over", despite my own comments in 64:

But is that what the town wants? Is it in the town's best interest to move on? I find it difficult to accept that we should just ignore unusual and/or scummy behavior simply because one or two people want to move on.

I asked hand banana for an explanation, and he gave one that I found satisfactory. I told hand banana that his blanket refusal to explain was not good for the town, but at the time I thought that hand banana was a misguided townie rather than scum (my gut read on hand banana until shortly before his claim was that he was an aggressive vanilla townie who looked scummy as a result of his scum-hunting tactics), and since I had no reason to ask him for additional explanation I did not press him on the subject.

Post 68:

No. Posting game related things is worth making a point. Not a funny thing the mod did that most people aleady caught.

No complaints here...

Post 78:

If you can quote where I lurker hunted I will lynch myself.

I know nekka is trying out new strategy's he is a new player.

And there were people who were lurker hunting and their were people asking for prods. Exactly their was not new discussion. And it was Hand Banana and Tarhildur. Falcone said nekka far too many times for me to comprehend that statement fully.

This post (in particular the last paragraph) is extremely interesting to me. Not only is Panzer attacking the two people who *didn't* vote for a lurker on grounds of lurker hunting, but he's doing so in a way that is, in my opinion, very confusing - it took me several rereads to understand what he was saying, both due to the phrasing and the grammar. Minor scumtell IMO.

Post 82:

Falcone never said they were right. He said they were fair. Falcone hasn't posted enough for me to get a good assessment on him.

Only reason to lurker hunt 2 days into a game is because you are scum trying to look like useful townies. Vote:Khelvaster because i forgot he was the one who lurker hunted and then he was a hypocrite.

Here Panzer says that he has a null read on Falcone (is he genuinely unable to get a read on Falcone, who's been fairly active, or is he avoiding picking sides?), claims that the only people who would lurker hunt 2 days into a game are scum trying to look like townies (setting aside my disagreement with this claim and the fact that the thread was open for ~2 days before the start of the game... WIFOM much?), and attacks Khelvaster for lurker hunting and contradicting himself (the latter is a valid point, but I don't like how he attacks Khelvaster only as an afterthought).

Post 132:

First off, if he is gonna play this, I'm gonna name people and they need to claim game and reveal power roles I want to be more certain then Hand Banana is vig. On top of that if he is gonna go around having power roles claim and such I'd rather have the vig lynched, because that is a terrible strategy. Might as well mas claim and see where that gets us. I'm 100% against this strategy regardless of the townness.

AlSleet, please tell me how I have been Inconsistent. I have been logical and aggressive the entire game. This is twice you have said something false about me. Why are you slandering me?
FoS:AlSleet

This was the post that really set off my alarm bells on Panzerjager (hence my strong attack on him in 134).

Once again, Panzerjager is joking/being sarcastic about scummy actions (in particular, a mass claim, which is all-but-unnecessary outside of LyLo situations), and confusing the town to boot. Also, I *still* think that his attack on AlSleet for using emotions is a case of "pot calling the kettle black" (and OMGUS to boot).

Post 136:

HANDBANANA was the one who suggested he name people. I said mass claim because I figured you'd get the sarcasm because I was going on about how terrible the idea was. I think the claim is bullshit, and uncounterclaimed or not, it doesn't matter. Not every town has a vig especially in Normal mini's. Did you miss the part where I said "I am 100% AGAINST this strategy." I also said if he wants to go around and out power roles. I'd rather have him lynched because Cop/Doc are far more important then vig. Winning with out a vig is easy; winning without a cop or doc is far harder.

Panzerjager seems extremely angry with me for misintrepreting his post 132. Very interesting. Scum reacting poorly to pressure?

The one thing that I will not fault Panzerjager for here is his willingness to lynch hand banana, given the timing on hand banana's claim and the plan that hand banana was advocating. I agree with Panzerjager that an Azwolging vig is a serious detriment to the town, regardless of whether he's killing or just outing power roles (indeed, if hand banana had followed through with his plan he would, IMO, be little better than an SK).

Post 138:

EDWOP: FoS: Tarhilindur for actually reading my post and then saying that I am confirmed scum.

OMGUS attack, anyone?

Post 139:

HandBanana, that is if we believe the claim.

Fair point, here.

Post 142:

Alright, fine. Out of curiosity, who would you name?

This falls into a grey area for me - it's fishing, but the situation is such that said fishing may actually be good for the town.

Post 145:

How are we supposed to be certain that you are actually a vig and not a mafia goon that is role fishing?

I see nowhere that this line of reasoning can go other than into WIFOM logic.

In other words... worlds of WIFOM, anyone?

Post 150:

It felt like you were calling me confirmed scum.

As previously noted in my Post 151:

I don't like attacks based on feelings, especially OMGUS attacks...

Post 154:

Because I read what you wrote but it registered as you are confirmed scum.

I'm still not thrilled with Panzer's post 138, but this is an acceptable explanation for his post 138 to me - IMO, accidental misreading is not a scumtell, especially if you admit to it.

Post 156:

I'm still curious who he would want to claim.

Again, Panzer falls into the grey area of "fishing that can help the town".

Post 158:

I was telling people they were acting suspicious. Consistently telling them they were suspicious. I still don't see and inconsistency. Is there any particular reason why you have FoSed me twice because of things both of us have proved to be not true?

Panzer seems *awfully* eager to claim that he's been consistent with his suspicions.

Post 163:

Well why would a protown player claim -5 from lynch

Worlds of WIFOM, anyone?

Post 165:

Alright, so since you seem keen on naming people for a claim, who did you want to name?

I'm not sure if

Post 173:

You're correct he did and he is amending it. I'm still not a fan of when he claimed, his thinking, his FoS me for being critical of his thinking, or his claim. If he wanted to come out and claim why did he wait so long. He seemed he was unsure and decided to gambit thinking his claim would be accepted and no one would give him questions, or he really did want to come out deceided to try to play it safe got flak and then said screw it i'll claim halfway through making it awkward. Either way I am getting very bad vibes from it, and am wishing he had a name to drop rather then that crap about no finding anyone suspicious enough to say he was gonna kill them. His little idea about saying I'll shoot them if they don't claim realy rubs me the wrong way. For now, I'm gonna risk being wrong about his role and Vote:HandBanana

Post 175:

I dare you.

Is Panzer a power role who knows that hand banana is hosed if hb vigs panzer? Or is Panzer a scumbag who wants to look like he's not too concerned with being vigged?

Post 176:

Ebwop: I thought of somethings after I dared you. Anyway this is an example of what others were saying were bad about your strategy. You outting pro-town players because you are not familiar enough with Mafiascum or Internet Mafia and don't possess amazing scum hunting ability. I will not be claiming until we get close to a non-handbanana lynch or am being pressurized.

Post 187:

Supported Nekka's view? I never supported anything. I have brought plenty to the table against you, none of which that you have addressed. If anything it is Nekka who is supporting my views. I think you are SK. And Khelvaster, two kills does not mean shit if he is an SK. And I know we shouldn't go SK hunting but when he falls into your lap it is hard to say oh let's have him kill some people first. No, kill him.

Mod:It has been far enough in the game where we need prods on AC, ~N9V~, and Roland. Replacements even. I know N9V is about ready to go on a trip and am taking over modding for him and probably will be replacing him in my game. Roland is famous for keeping the letter and going on hiatus so i wouldn't be surprised if he needed replacing as well.

Here's where Panzer starts pushing the "hand banana is SK" theory. I don't like how Panzerjager says that he thinks hand banana is SK without giving reasons. IMO, when attacking you should put all your reasons on the table unless you have a very good reason not to (in which case you should say something to that effect).

Post 205:

Why are you unsure about me Falcone?

Post 216:

Khelvaster pay attention. I'm the one attacking Banana, the SK.
Mod: We nee prods and vote counts.
Please be more active mod.

This post concerns me greatly. Panzerjager has shifted from "I think hand banana is SK" to "I'm the one attacking hand banana, the SK". That's a major change in tone for a mere half a day and two posts, especially coming after hand banana had agreed to make himself, in effect, a second lynch (which would effectively neutralize him if he was, in fact, SK).

Post 220:

Unvote, Vote:Khelvaster

I have a stack of reasons but between not paying attention and being a hypocrite I can stick my vote on him comfortably without having to put all my reasons out there yet.

As previously noted: IMO, when attacking you should put all your reasons on the table unless you have a very good reason not to (in which case you should say something to that effect).

Post 224:

He is SK. Look at the way he is playing. He isn't listening to the town but claimed vig and that he was all for the town. Now he is selfish and on a powertrip, which is lynchable when it's a vig cause he becomes a protown Serial Killer. What was the motive behind claiming vig so quick? He took a shot and is uncounterclaimed which totally cleared him in several people eyes, regardless of what he has said. On top of this he wants to kill me who has been probably the most active at trying to catch scum, among other things. If he is a vig, he is a detriment and should be dealt with. If he is an SK, he is again a detriment and should be dealt with.

Once again, Panzer comes out strongly in favor of his "hand banana is SK". The problem here is that Panzer is advocating lynching hand banana *after* hand banana has all-but-agreed to act as a virtual second lynch (which makes him a valuable asset if hand banana is town and neutralizes hand banana for the time being if he's scum). This conclusion holds even though hand banana still needed - needs? - to follow the wishes of the whole town instead of a portion of it; even if hand banana is only accepting the judgement of a portion of the town, that still neutralizes him if he's scum. I fail to see how lynching an uncounterclaimed vig who has all-but-agreed to a course of action that neutralizes him if he's scum is a good thing.

Post 227:

wait you can't say majority of the town then exclude a third of the town.

Post 232:

Okay so you, Jenter, 3 people that arn't playing, elias, Khelvaster, and Alsleet?

That list is hardly liable influence, with the exception of AlSleet. You left out all the influential and pro-town players. For real, what pro-town player excludes people from the list not knowing there alignment? On top of that you have quite possibly the most scummy player on you lister of pro town players and you also have a guy you said didn't read and should pay more attention. Not to mention 3 people who haven't posted anything really. What value do you see in excluding the 4 most active players(I'm assuming that I am excluded).

These are valid points.

Post 243:

welcome to the show AC. About time buddy.

He doesn't pay attention. He hunts lurkers then contradicts himself. He votes someone who is the exact oppisite of what he said. He follows what everybody else says. Doesn't come up with anything original and tries to jump wagons, albeit unsuccessful. Khelvaster has done anything at all protown, and HB never mentioned him. He has been too side tracked wanting to kill me he hasn't mentioned it. Why is this? Maybe because I have him fingered?

Panzerjager's choice of words regarding ac1983fan is interesting. A Freudian slip?

Also, come to think of it, I'm interested as to why Panzer has been attacking hand banana for the last few posts before this despite having his vote on Khelvaster since his post 220. More to the point - Panzerjager, if you think hand banana is SK, then why aren't you still attacking him as opposed to Khelvaster, who you're attacking on the much more vague grounds that Khelvaster "[hasn't] done anything at all protown"? That reeks of opportunistic scum to me...

Post 251:

Wait, If he is scum wouldn't that clear me too? I was the second on the wagon and the one who drew attention to him with the lurker hunting comment.

You seem awfully eager to be cleared, Panzerjager.

Post 257:

Where the hell are the vote counts in this friggin game? Mod wake up.

Asking for a vote count with no other reasoning is scummy.

Post 258:

EBWOP: I don't like that claim. If you don't full claim you'll probably die today. I'm not a fan of the whole "I have a power role" If you claim power role you are still going to die. Only reason to say that is your a vanilla that is pulling a stupid gambit or a scum that is pulling a slightly less stupid gambit.

On the one hand, Panzer's right that "I have a power role" isn't a good claim - in fact, a "power role" claim gives the impression that the claimer is trying to use his or her claim to clear him- or herself (instead of, you know, actual defense...), which is scummy.

On the other hand, Panzer's "Only reason to say that..." comment can't lead to good things. Worlds of WIFOM, anyone?

Post 260:

I'll go into why breadcrumbing is good play at a later date but for now my above argument is sufficient.

Post 261:

*isn't good play rather. Breadcrumbing is bad play.

Post 265:

No, Breadcrumbing is always bad, unless it's masons. The only time I support it is for masons. If you breadcrumb as almost any other power role, scum can pick up on it and you get gunned.

(260, 261, and 265 grouped together due to similarities.)

I don't really agree with Panzer's argument here. IMO, breadcrumbing isn't so much bad as risky - if you get caught, you're going to get burned, but if you can pull it off breadcrumbing can be a huge asset in the late game.

This doesn't excuse Khelvaster's actions - IMO, he's handled his breadcrumbing terribly, regardless of his true alignment (in particular, he failed to defend his play prior to revealing his breadcrumbing, and he decided to reveal his breadcrumbing prior to his full claim) - but it's worth keeping in mind.

Post 265:

Why not? He is all ready dead, and whay if he is lying, which I get the strong impression of. More so then HB's claim. A lot more so. If he claims fully he could be full of shit and if he doesn't then he is already going to die. Only reason to to reveal is if he is A Vanilla gambiting or B. Scum gambiting.

This post is extremely confusing, but from what I'm seeing, it looks like Panzerjager is advocating lynching Khelvaster regardless of what he actually claims - red flag material if I ever saw it.

Post 269:

*High Five* to HandBanaa

And I'm getting a Doc vibe from the first post and a Cop vibe from the second. And I'm with HB, your sounding more and more full of shit.

Why is Panzer so willing to agree with the player he thinks is SK?

Post 272:

I'm still not sure about his claim. I'm still more willing to accept that he is the SK, not the vig. He has mad a few town posts. Last antitown thing that jumped out at me was that doesn't want to vote for someone he believes is scummy because other people that he feels are scummy are voting for him. Because he could and probably is wrong about some that only he thinks are not protown. The town as a collective is more likely to not be wrong as a collective. I also didn't like his excluding of "scummy people" in his NK candidate. I still think his plan is bad and shouldn't be implemented.

I'm willing to give HB a chance due to Khelvaster being scum.

So in other words, "I still think you're probably scum, but I don't think you're as scummy as Khelvaster, so you can wait until tomorrow?".

Okay, that explanation makes sense.

Post 276:

HandBanana, I'm sure because of how many games I have played and my experiance with these situations. When people act like this I become pretty sure they are scum because of the percentage of time a person that does this is scum and the motivation behind the action. What reason does he have to claim I'm a power role but I bread crumbed. Guess my role. The only reason is either we nod like stupid townies and say ok and no one counterclaims because there is nothing to counterclaim. Or we pick up on the so called breadcrumbing figure out his role, someone counterclaims and we lynch khelv and have 2 outted powerroles. On top of those two options even if he claimed full either you or him are gonna die because there is no possible fucking way we have 2 docs. So why play all the games? He is probably gonna get lynched for claiming terribly(btw the timing was bad as well) or NKed for being a pwer role. I seriously doubt he is a power role, and fake claiming a power role is scummy.

For the most part, I agree with Panzer's arguments here about why Khelvaster's power role breadcrumb is scummy. What I don't like is how Panzer implies that *only* a scumbag would breadcrumb a power role - that's Worlds of WIFOM, folks.

Post 283:

Mnowax, You missed a vote. Khelvaster is voting me.


Mod edit: I have updated it in the vote count sorry.

Meh.

Post 285:

Our Mod's activityy has been less then that, and as long as that one time a week is good, I don't see the problem with that. But i would expect content if your only posting once a week.

Meh.

Post 287:

I confirm that I didn't catch any thing that would shoot to one specific role.

That looks like a fence to me... I wonder how Panzer's so comfortable sitting on it.

Post 289:

IS he subclaiming vig?

Fishing, anyone?

I'm going to stop the PBPA here for a second, and sum up the case for Panzerjager up until this point.

After running the full PBPA on Panzerjager, I think that the case against him is somewhat weaker than I thought it would be when I started the PBPA. A good deal of Panzerjager's posting has been pro-town, especially towards the beginning of the game.

Best points against Panzerjager:

- He pushes for a hand banana lynch because he thinks that hand banana is SK, even though hand banana agreed to a course of action that, while flawed, would in fact (temporarily) neutralize hand banana should he be scum.
- His switch from attacking hand banana to attacking Khelvaster seems opportunistic, especially since he continued to attack hand banana for several posts *after* he switched his vote from hand banana to Khelvaster.
- Panzer often uses OMGUS attacks and Worlds of WIFOM logic (i.e, logic that's fine on the surface but quickly devolves into WIFOM if you look at it closely enough) in his arguments.
- Panzer's jokes about scummy actions (speedlynching one of the most experienced players in the game and mass claiming without a good reason) are in and of themselves scummy, IMO.

Best points for Panzerjager being town:

- Panzerjager has consistently called players out for anti-town behavior (hand banana's reluctance to explain, hand banana's horrible plan for deciding who to vig, and Khelvaster's decision to make us hunt for breadcrumbs rather than just come out and fullclaim).
- Panzer has been one of the players most responsible for sparking discussion in this game. (In general, I think that people who spark discussion are more likely to be town.)

Now, the really interesting stuff:

Bullshit, Khelv. I'm cop. I am on the Falcone, he is full of shit and put it there cause he was in trouble bandwagon.

Yes I did. I responded to HB's claim to vigging me with an "I Dare you" knowing he would be fucked in the butt if he shot me. I have also actually been trying to hunt scum, unlike you who has done nothing but hope on bandwagons and play like the scum you are. Crumbing does not clear you especially when you claim 160 post or so into the game. Anyone can spell cop in a d post and then claim "I'm the really cop because I crumbed." The fact that you have experienced someone who crumbed as the real cop gives me more of a feel you crumbed because you were in trouble then if you weren't. You are scum.

So, Khelvaster has claimed cop, and Panzer has counterclaimed.

From what I've seen, I think we can be reasonably sure, barring extreme stupidity, that one of Khelvaster and Panzer is scum (specifically, mafia), and the other is the real cop. Given this, at some point we will probably need to trade our cop for a dead scum (if we lynch the scumbag, then the mafia will probably kill the real cop soon thereafter; if we lynch the real cop, then either we have hand banana kill the scumbag the following night or we lynch the scumbag the next day).

The one good argument I can think of for leaving Khelvaster/Panzerjager alive for a night or two is that it lets the real cop get in an investigation or two before he dies (barring a RBer).

So, the question for me is: if we lynch one of Khelvaster and Panzerjager today, which one should we choose?

Points against Panzerjager:

- He pushes for a hand banana lynch because he thinks that hand banana is SK, even though hand banana agreed to a course of action that, while flawed, would in fact (temporarily) neutralize hand banana should he be scum.
- His switch from attacking hand banana to attacking Khelvaster seems opportunistic, especially since he continued to attack hand banana for several posts *after* he switched his vote from hand banana to Khelvaster.
- Panzer often uses OMGUS attacks and Worlds of WIFOM logic (i.e, logic that's fine on the surface but quickly devolves into WIFOM if you look at it closely enough) in his arguments.
- Panzer's jokes about scummy actions (speedlynching one of the most experienced players in the game and mass claiming without a good reason) are in and of themselves scummy, IMO.\

Points against Khelvaster:
- Khelvaster's method of claiming was, simply put, horrible. Instead of coming clean and saying that he was the cop (with breadcrumb backup), he sent the town on a breadcrumb hunt that distracted us for at least a page. This makes his claim considerably less believable (and, therefore, makes Panzer's counterclaim more believable).
- More importantly, Khelvaster's post 167 wasn't the first breadcrumb I thought I saw from him. Some of you may remember the following comment from my PBPA on Khelvaster:

This post caught my eye when I looked at it in the context of Khelvaster's post 42 and his later posts 91 and 126. I think I may know what's going on here, but I do not want to elaborate on this unless Khelvaster is forced to claim at some point in the future. Suffice it to say that I saw something here that should make it easier for me to decide if Khelvaster is telling the truth if/when he does claim.

I posted this because I thought that Khelvaster might be crumbing a masonry with Nekka-Lucifer (both due to the posts I noted above and due to some Nekka-Lucifer posts that I will not point out for the time being). This is why I asked Nekka-Lucifer what his opinion was regarding Khelvaster's power role claim. It also makes me a little more suspicious of Khelvaster's cop claim, especially now that he's been counterclaimed.
- Khelvaster has contradicted himself on at least one occasion (post 63) - more if you (like me) interpret Khelvaster's post 152 as a subtle attack on hand banana, the claimed vig. Regardless, Khelvaster's tone in post 152 is a far cry from his "wanting to lynch a claimed vig is absolutely unacceptable" tone in posts 181, 182, and 211.

At the moment, I'm leaning towards Khelvaster being scum and Panzer being the real cop, but I'm not ready to act on that just yet.

Note: I'm a bit tired at the moment (thanks to offline issues). If something in this PBPA doesn't make sense, that's probably why.

[Tarhalindur]

While I've been leaning towards Panzerjager being the real cop (as indicated in my PBPA on Panzer), I'd like to reserve final judgement on our claimed cops for a little while, for two reasons:

- First, by reserving judgement on Panzer/Khelvaster, I'm giving both our claimed cops a chance to defend themselves.
- Second, and more importantly, Khelvaster's post 327 opens up a line of questioning that help me decide whether he is scum or cop:

I'll give some more stuff later. For now, I just want to bring two things up from my post 152.

I almost want to lynch Hand Banana...I feel unsafe with him as our vig. He isn't scummy, but the way he's acting makes me feel really bad about his judgement to hit scum instead of townies at night. He apparently read through Tapioca mafia...in that game, the vig nailed a townie night 1 and a doc night 2. Despite this, we could just tell him not to kill anyone. That would weaken him down to a townie, but it would be better IMO than losing a townie.

This was said in response to HB having said he felt confidant in his own scumhunting abilities. Notice how I conclude that it would be better for him not to kill at all than for us to lynch him. Of course, using him as another lynch is the best option. I never actually advocated lynching him. That's why I said almost.

Khelvaster, would the following statement...

"IMO, hand banana should allow himself to be used as a second lynch, or at least agree not to fire. If he refuses, I'd consider lynching him even though he is an uncounterclaimed vig, since I don't trust his scumhunting abilities and his Azwolging behavior could be disasterous for the town."

...be a reasonable paraphrase of what you were trying to say in Post 152?

---------------------------

Anyway, I am seeing something awkward about Panzer's posts. I don't know if it's just paranoia, so for now

IGMEOY

, Panzer. I'll need to reread posts to find something substantial.

Check out how I suspected Panzer on post 152...He's been acting scummy for a while.

I find it interesting how eager you are to point out that you've been looking at Panzerjager for some time, and how eager you are to (rightfully) point out that Panzer has been acting scummy for a while. After all, just because Panzer's actions have been scummy doesn't mean that your action's aren't...

[Tarhalindur]

I'll give some more stuff later. For now, I just want to bring two things up from my post 152.

I almost want to lynch Hand Banana...I feel unsafe with him as our vig. He isn't scummy, but the way he's acting makes me feel really bad about his judgement to hit scum instead of townies at night. He apparently read through Tapioca mafia...in that game, the vig nailed a townie night 1 and a doc night 2. Despite this, we could just tell him not to kill anyone. That would weaken him down to a townie, but it would be better IMO than losing a townie.

This was said in response to HB having said he felt confidant in his own scumhunting abilities. Notice how I conclude that it would be better for him not to kill at all than for us to lynch him. Of course, using him as another lynch is the best option. I never actually advocated lynching him. That's why I said almost.

Khelvaster, would the following statement...

"IMO, hand banana should allow himself to be used as a second lynch, or at least agree not to fire. If he refuses, I'd consider lynching him even though he is an uncounterclaimed vig, since I don't trust his scumhunting abilities and his Azwolging behavior could be disasterous for the town."

...be a reasonable paraphrase of what you were trying to say in Post 152?

That is exactly the point I was trying to convey, yes. I said it in a somewhat less diplomatic tone, because I believed HB to have already stated his desire to be independant.

I find it rather interesting that you say that's "exactly the point you were trying to convey". See, when I originally wrote that paraphrase I wasn't actually trying to paraphrase your post 152. Instead, I was trying to paraphrase my own posts 191, 196, and 200:

Hand banana's play has become so strange that the only reason I'm not voting him is because he's an uncounterclaimed vig. He seems dead-set to enact a plan that is, in my opinion, very anti-town (especially since it's likely to out most or all of our power roles), ignoring the town's wishes in the process (for future reference, it is my opinion that there are probably 1-2 scum hiding in the group of less-than-active players), and he's OMGUS'ing anyone who speaks out against his plan to boot.

IMO, hand banana is either lying scum or a vig who is playing *very* poorly (and hand banana is right that a poorly played vig can be a liability to the town). I'm not sure, however, if the benefit of taking out a probable liability to the town is worth the risk of potentially losing our vig on Day 1.

...Here's a plan for you - we, as a town decide whether or not we should vig someone tonight, and if so who. Once night comes around, you carry out the town's wishes by vigging whoever the town decided to kill (if anyone).

I've got a question that might help us decide where to go from here.

At this point, my opinion is that if hand banana is, in fact the vig, then he is effectively a forced/overeager vig (i.e, a vig that has to fire every night), especially since IMO revealing power roles is almost as bad as killing them off. From what I've seen in past games, forced vigs tend to be a liability to the town - they don't have the option of just not firing, so they often wind up shooting at vaguely scummy players who turn out to be power roles.

My question for everyone is, is it in the best interests of the town to lynch a claimed forced vig on Day 1, given that a forced vig is a town power role that is known to backfire horribly on the town?

At the time I posted my post 200, I had not seen hand banana's post 197 (where he finally agreed to a course of action that would neutralize any threat he posed for the time being). As such, my post 200 followed up on my logic in post 191 - to paraphrase, "if he refuses, I'd consider lynching him even though he is an uncounterclaimed vig, since I don't trust his scumhunting abilities and his Azwolging behavior could be disasterous for the town". From what I saw hand banana was still absolutely committed to a plan of action that would commit him to killing or outing a power role each night (in other words, while hand banana wasn't actually claiming to be a forced vig he was pursuing a course of action that would, IMO, effectively make him a forced vig), and as such I was starting to consider whether hand banana's scumminess on Page 5 and his insistence that we use his fatally flawed plan outweighed his status as an uncounterclaimed vig.

Now, let's take a look at your posts 212 and 213:

Vote: Tarhalindur

Tar is the only person I've seen who is continuously trying to take down a claimed, unchallenged vig. That is not good in my book.

Tar is also using an argument for lynch that is definitely a scumtell. He is saying the claimed vig is an inexperienced forced vig, and therefore we should lynch him. Tar has lain low most of the game--he now reared his ugly head to try and get a quick lynch.

Setting aside the obvious problems with this post (I wasn't even arguing for a lynch, let alone a quick lynch - considering a lynch, yes, but not actually arguing for it), I find this post, if not a direct contradiction of Khelvaster's post 152, then at least very hypocritical in light of his 152, seeing as Khelvaster's attacking me for using the exact same train of thought that he followed in his own 152.

Then, of course, there is post 182:

I'll say preemptively to Nekka and his inevitable OMGUS argument: don't give me any crap about this being a WIFOM accusation. No sane townie would go out of their way to try and lynch a vig. Instead, the townie would want to wait until d2 to see what comes of the vig's claim.

Zero tolerance is the only way to go for trying to lynch unchallenged, claimed pro-town power roles day 1.

So, let's see - in post 152, you admit that you were considering lynching hand banana if he tried to go throught with his plan, yet in post 182 you seem to be saying that we can't even consider lynching an uncounterclaimed power role on Day 1? Moreover, you attack me in post 212 (claiming that I'm continuously trying to take down an uncounterclaimed vig) for following the same logic that you yourself followed in Post 152? Those look like contradictions to me.

Khelvaster, if you can explain to me how these posts are consistent in your eyes, I would be glad to hear it.

Anyway, I am seeing something awkward about Panzer's posts. I don't know if it's just paranoia, so for now

IGMEOY

, Panzer. I'll need to reread posts to find something substantial.

Check out how I suspected Panzer on post 152...He's been acting scummy for a while.

I find it interesting how eager you are to point out that you've been looking at Panzerjager for some time, and how eager you are to (rightfully) point out that Panzer has been acting scummy for a while. After all, just because Panzer's actions have been scummy doesn't mean that your action's aren't...

This means I have been acting in a fairly pro-town way, and I didn't jump on any bandwagons, unlike Panzer.

And on the subject of Jenter, I already said that I was posting that for the record, should I get lynched. I don't know how many of you guys had noticed it. I did not intend for this to be a topic of discussion atm.

I don't agree with you that you've been acting in a pro-town way. Indeed, given the contradictions I'm seeing in your posts and the breadcrumb hunt you led us on, I think that you're probably scum, and Panzer is probably the real cop.

At this point, if I had to vote for one of our claimed cops, I would vote for Khelvaster.

Pre-post Edit: It looks like the situation has blown up while I was typing this. I'll look things over and give my opinion on our 4 claimed masons ASAP.

[Tarhalindur]

Masons - are you mod-confirmed or not?

If you aren't mod-confirmed, then we probably have 1-2 scum hiding in the masons.

If you are, then this setup is officially borked in favor of the town, seeing as in that case we have 6 masons, a doc, and probably a cop. (Yes, I know that there's a Doc. I would, seeing as I'm the Doc.)

[Tarhalindur]

I'm a bit surprised that I'm still alive - I guess the Mafia decided that the masons were a better target than the doc. For the record, I protected hand banana last night.

Khelvaster, Panzerjager - investigation results?

N9V, the non-Masons are hand banana (claimed vig), Panzer and Khelvaster (both claimed cop), me (claimed doc), and Falcone and acfan (both unclaimed). I suspect that our best plan is to look into Khelvaster/Panzerjager today, seeing as Nekka-Lucifer cut short the discussion about those two yesterday.

[Tarhalindur]

Last I'd heard, we were massclaiming yesterday, thanks to those 6! mason claims..

[Tarhalindur]

Guilty investigation, eh? Let's see what happens if we lynch Elias:

Best case scenario: We lynch elias, he's scum. We've killed a scumbag and have a mostly-confirmed cop (only other options are Panzer bussing a scumbuddy and a double mafia, and we can sort both of those out later).

Worst case scenario: We lynch elias, he's town. Hand banana vigs Panzer tonight, hence trading a mason for a scumbag (not a bad trade, esp. in a mini) and making Khelvaster a mostly-confirmed cop (only other possibilities are no real cop or acfan being the real cop, both unlikely IMO) and all but confirming AlSleet as pro-town mason.

That's not even a bad worst case scenario.

Vote: elias_the_thief

[Tarhalindur]

Khelvaster, the main flaw I can see with your reasoning on the setup is that there's still one scenario in which we can have a double mafia or SK: namely, if hand banana is lying about his role.

That doesn't affect the vigging argument, though, since hand banana almost certainly won't fire at himself, regardless of his role. In my opinion, if elias comes up scum, there are 5 players who could be vigged tonight:

Khelvaster/Panzerjager: This depends on whether we think there are 2 cops or not. If Elias comes up scum and hand banana decides to fire at a cop tonight, then IMO Khelvaster is the best bet (since Panzerjager will be a mostly-confirmed cop).

Falcone/Me: This is a slightly worse option IMO, since vigging a doc guarantees that we start losing power roles. If hand banana decides to vig a doc I'd prefer if Falcone gets vigged, for obvious reasons.

Acfan: Unclaimed, has promised material but has not followed through on that promise. I don't really feel comfortable lynching him (not enough material to go on), but given how little he's contributed and how little we know about him vigging acfan seems like a good idea to me.

I think Khelvaster and acfan are the best options for vigging if elias comes up scum.

[Tarhalindur]

Um, hand banana, if Elias comes up town then you should really vig the hell out of Panzer tonight.

Or do you know that Elias is going to turn up scum?

[Tarhalindur]

Sorry for the delay (I've had limited access for a bit).

Okay, Khelvaster is trying to get me lynched by claiming that a) Falcone is innocent and b) because Falcone is innocent, I must be scum. That's awfully shoddy reasoning - in fact, given the sheer number of masons in the game and Khelvaster's play here I think we may be dealing with 2 doctors and no cop, making Khelvaster a scum who got away with a fakeclaim due to luck/skill. The other possibility, of course, is that Falcone is a mafia godfather.

I'm not sure of which possibility to believe, but I do know that I am almost certainly NOT the play for today, as lynching me almost certainly leads to a scum win.

Thought - given that we're almost certainly at lylo (2 scum would be completely imbalanced in favor of the town given the sheer amount of pro-town power we've seen) and probably have at least 1 doc, would it make sense for us to No Lynch today and have Khelvaster investigate me tonight?

[Tarhalindur]

Tarhalindur:

- who did you protect each night?
- is there anything out of the ordinary with your role that you want to claim (flavour or something else)?

Protect targets:

N1 = hand banana
N2 = Falcone

Flavor is perfectly normal - if there's something going on with my role, I don't know about it.

[Tarhalindur]

A roleblocker too? Uh-oh. Looks like my little game is up.

This game is so heavily weighted in favor of the town, it's not even funny. Luckily for me, Khelvaster may yet win the game for the scum.

Unvote, Vote: Tarhalindur

[Tarhalindur]

Khelvaster doesn't matter anymore. My Godfather is still alive, you know...

[Tarhalindur]

YAY I AM HAMMARED!

[Tarhalindur]

Bah. Go scum!

[Tarhalindur]

Holy ****, we won?!

I *knew* there was a reason I bussed myself D3... I bow before your superior endgame skills, Jenter.

Oh, and I must thank Nekka-Lucifer (for getting himself modkilled) and Guardian (for, I don't know, letting us win the game)

For the record, here's a Mafia PM drop:

Hey man, I don't think it was that smart to claim doc. I would like to kill falcone but I think he is the really cop. I'm up for a Khelvaster, HB, or Falcone. I favor the Falcone NK though. Because he is dangerously logical. Let's try to keep this confusion going.

I claimed doc for 2 reasons:

1) After 6 mason claims, I figured that as long as the town plays halfway decently we can't win the game regardless of my claim. (We must thank Nekka for getting himself modkilled - it'll give us a chance.)
2) I strongly suspect that there is, in fact, no doc. If this game does, in fact, have doc + cop + vig + 6 masons, something is very, very borken in favor of the town (thanks to day 1 massclaim ).

In my opinion, the best play for us is probably to kill another mason (probably Rishi, who seems to be a reasonably good player - AlSleet's out because hand banana can still lose the game for the town, Jenter's made himself suspicious enough that we may be able to get him lynched, and elias/n9v are too inactive to be of much concern yet), or else kill hand banana (as I said, I think that there isn't a real doc). By attacking masons/vig, I can open a big can of WIFOM over why the mafia might prefer to kill a mason instead of the doc ("if all the masons are town, then mafia would want to kill a mason because 6 masons is a bigger threat than a single doc, if some of the masons are mafia the mafia might still choose to kill a mason in an attempt to get the doc lynched"), or (better yet) we can pretend that our kill was actually an SK kill (die, hand banana, die!) and that my doc protection blocked the mafia kill (or was ineffective, depending on whether hand banana fires). Of course, that still leaves me open to a Falcone counterclaim, but I don't really care about that anymore.

I'd prefer we keep Falcone alive until tomorrow night, for two reasons:

1) If there is, in fact, a doc in this game, it's going to be Falcone. I'd rather not get owned by counterclaim until tomorrow at the earlies, if you don't mind.
2) <pre-post edit: classified until an ongoing game finishes>

Should have added this in the last PM, oh well.

Are you RBer or Godfather, or just another goon like me?

Also, we need to get acfan up to speed here, and quickly.

Hey buddy, it's night. Time to talk over the Mafia kill.

Right now, I'm favoring a Rishi kill, for several reasons - PM Panzer, he can relay them to you.

Also - town is probably going to ask for your claim at some point. Claiming vanilla townie may actually be advisable at this point, seeing as nobody's claimed vanilla yet. For reference, we have 2 claimed cops (Panzer and the real cop, I presume), 1 claimed doc (me), 6! claimed masons (none of them in our mafia... ), a claimed vig (hand banana) who we may be able to lynch by calling him SK, and 2 unclaimed (you and Falcone).

Also - are you Godfather or RB'er, or are you just a Goon like me?

We are all Goons. Which is terrible. This is the most broken game I've ever played. 6 Mason!?! WTF. Okay Rishi sounds a good kill to me. Send it. AC can stay left behind for all I care. And I know Falcone is the doc. Mnowax's has [censored] us too hard to not let there be a doc.

Mafia kills Rishi.

Uh-oh, elias was indeed innocent. Looks like hand banana's going to vig the hell out of you tonight.

I think our best kill is hand banana, at this point - it removes the town's second lynch, it lets me test for the existence of a second mafia (I've been considering a 6-3-3 setup, with 6 masons, a Falcone-Khelvaster-hand banana scumgroup, and our little scum trio), and with Khelvaster all-but-confirmed as cop hb is unlikely to be protected tonight.

Yea, Go.

Mafia kills hand banana.

Your new partner in crime is Jenter #2

You MAY talk to eachother during the day for this day only,as i couldn't find a replacement in time.

Hello, I'm now back as our scumbuddy.

What the hell do I do? I can't really make any kind of believable claim, can I?

Please help...

Your best claim is probably RBer ATM. Nuke Falcone tonight, then claim to RB a mason and try to get a mislynch.

EBWODPM: claim mason targets for all nights (probably yourself as mason night 1 and n9v last night).

Also, if this game goes down as it has to go down remember to bitch about the setup postgame. I for one am *never* joining a mnowax game again.

(Note: After that last little twist, I may have to reconsider this decision. )

Triple PM: if nobody goes after our cop, put me at -1 in the near future so I can self-hammar.

Now it's time for me to bus myself in an attempt to save you. Nuke Falcone tonight, GL tomorrow.

Jenter, I strongly recommend claiming that you'll block n9v tonight. If you really want to incriminate n9v, pull a no-kill tonight.