Mini 462: Just another game of Mafia... over

[hand banana]

ok, day hasn't stared yet, so i'll just use the time to introduce myself,
since this is my first game here, and you all prob. know each other to some extent..

just a few of things you need to know about me and my style of play:
most important thing - > english is not my native language, so if i sound weird (probably cause i couldn't find the right word to express myself) or i suck at grammar, that's the reason.
i'm 22 years old student, and my style is aggressive, i'll jump on bandwagons all the time in the beginning cause i think it's useful for town.
i have a lot of experience in live mafia, but this is my first online game.
enough for now.

my first random vote -> when game officially begins.

have fun and enjoy the game guys

[hand banana]

well, one thing i learned about mafia:

setting rules = bad

because any rule we set as "good" scum can follow and stay under the radar.. so, now i won't bandwagon.. or i will. more rules and scum will feel more confident .
and all these rules are just WIFOM at best.

oh, and btw, i'm from belgrade, serbia.

[hand banana]

so it begins..

Vote: Jenter Brolincani

random..

[hand banana]

i'd like you to say names, cause i've got nothing, except maybe Khelvaster, but i'm far from being sure.
and i'd like to see your vote too

[hand banana]

yeah, i do.

Unvote: Jenter Brolincani

Vote: Nekka-Lucifer

you are doing nothing usefull to the town.

[hand banana]

can you please elaborate on that a litle bit more?
--
so, you say i got worried, and therefore i look scummy?
why do you think i got worried?

I was suspicous about one person,

was that me?
or did i become suspicious to you only after i said that i'd like you to say names?

[hand banana]

ok, so far, my impresion on Nekka-Lucifer is:

either he's a) inexperienced townie, or a b)good mafia.
a) is getting us nowhere, and b) will also be fruitless for now.

because of that, and because i think it's "a)" much more likely than "b)"

Unvote: Nekka-Lucifer

i'd like inactive players to take part in the game, or be prodded.

[hand banana]

why did you suspect khelvaster in post 36

just a hunch i got from reading page1. nothing i could back up right now.

why the sudden change of heart about Nekka (posts 45 vs 48 & 50)?

nope.
no "change of hearts".
i felt like he's protown right away, and that's why i said "
you are doing nothing usefull to the town" when i placed my vote, and not "you're scum"
that vote was just a way of making him stop, 'cause i felt we're milking the dead cow.

and we still got nothing people
(at least that's my opinion)

[hand banana]

doing nothing useful to the town", which I read as "is acting scummy"

no, it isn't the same.
doing nothing useful for the town meant to sound like "i think you're pro-town and you're channeling discussion into a dead end", that's all. vote was my way of pressuring him. he reacted the way he did, and i felt there was no need too keep my vote on him any more.
i will not explain this any further.
oh, and

FoS: Tarhalindur

for trying to revive completely useless and finished discussion. it is very clear to everyone what i wanted to do, and it's also clear what NLucifer wanted to do.
move on.

[hand banana]

i'd like to hear falcone's oppinion on Panzerjager, and AlSleet's about elias and vice versa.

His post sequence 45-48-50-56-62 just doesn't add up.

what is exactly wrong with my posts?

so Nekka was right to pursue the point for a bit.

what point?
about that half-assed "trap" he set up for mafia, and me falling into that trap?

[hand banana]

My main suspects now are probably you, Panzerjager, Tahrlinduhr. I'll have more details about that once I reread the game so far.

gotta agree on those 2 /(in my mind there is 90% that at least one of them is scum), but only with falcone or Khelvaster instead of me (again, if i had to make a guess, i would say 60% that at least one of them is mafia)

[hand banana]

then handbanana pointed out that lurker hunting isn't a good thing.

wasn't me, although i agree.

[hand banana]

it seems you have partially neglected to explain (or you didn't see the post)

i don' feel like explaining that again. re-read the game.
-----
about Khelvaster: i re-read the game and at this point, i do believe him.

i don't think scum would be so careless and make a contradiction to himself this early in the game. you need more content to find scum inconsistencies.
i also think we need more pro-town players in this discussion, cause i feel that all 3 scum (i guess mod didn't do something wild, so there are 3 of them) are actively participating, and we won't be able to do much in a situation like that.

[hand banana]

he has found all 3 scum

no, i didn't, and i didn't say that.
i said i felt like they are all very active, and in post 90 i said who are my suspects (and i could be wrong about them, too, the game has just started).

[hand banana]

yes i do.

not!

[hand banana]

yes, i think mod should tell us if they answered the prod.
~N9V~ and rolandofthewhite.

mod?

and vote count would also be nice.

any new questions for me.. let's see...

Hand banana wanted me to elaborate about my reasons for suspecting him, I did, and he didn't comment on it.

the same reasons i explained before.

--

Also, he claims to have found at least one scum (post 90) or even three scum (post 99), but he didn't give any reasons.

i never made such claim. i was talking about my suspects, and that is based on a hunch, not knowing.
but you fit into my definition of scum pretty well (playing just enough so you wouldn't be called lurker, being over causcious, exaggerating when describing your reasons for voting me, etc..)
earlier i said there was 60% chance that at least one of you or Khelvaster are scum.
now i think it's <10% that khel is scum and you are at the 90+ % mark.
thus,

vote: falcone

[hand banana]

about agression, he isn't showing much of it.

well, i was reading one game here (mini 443) and kinda decided to try something new..

[hand banana]

what do you need me to explain?

Hand banana, I want you to answer Nekka-Lucifer's questions.

what questions? i answered them.

I want you to give a good explanation of why you think that refusing to give an explanation "because I don't feel like" could possibly be considered acceptable

i don't like explaining the obvious.

Finally, I want you to explain why you decided to be less aggressive in this game when you stated..

i said that to: "kinda decided to try something new.. "

[hand banana]

nekka: "lost cause, and a failure"

i understand that my strategy may be incomprehensible to you (being confused, naive teenager and all), but "failure" is a little harsh..

ok, before all this turns into shit, let me explain myself thoroughly and step-by-step from the beginning up to this point, since i already achieved some of my goals, and i think it's time to come clean.

i never played with this role i got in live games, so first thing i did, i found a couple of games with this role in them, and i read them. one of these games was "Mini 443 - Tapioca Mafia". in it, the guy with my role did more damage to the town than mafia did.
first night he killed a civilian, and second night he managed to kill the doctor and he also got himself killed by mafia. so, i realized it's a very tough role to play, and it can be very dangerous for town of misplayed. so, my line of thinking is this: in order not to kill a power-role before the day ends i will say whom i'm going to kill. this, of course, needs me to come open and claim right in the first day. (im doing that right now -

i claim vig

). vig can be useful for town, but it can also be very harmful, so i don't think this claim will necessarily damage the town, and i think it won't.
after i decided to do this, i created this strategy: i will leave enough hints for experienced and good players that i'm power-role, but i will act very arrogantly and cocky, and i will put myself in the spotlight from the beginning. by doing this, i wanted to make two kinds of people vote for me: noob townies, and when their number gets around 2 or 3, a couple of scum will join them too, since i will practically be the only one we're discussing. i didn't achieve all of it, but i think it's time to claim before this gets out of hand.

if anyone has any questions for me, i will answer them now.
oh, except nekka's questions. (i'm sorry we play for the same team).

so.. before the day ends, i will say who i want to kill, and i will give that person a chance to claim. of course, if i pick mafia he will know he's got nothing to loose and he will prob. claim cop or a doc just to expose them. in this case, the real cop or doc or whatever SHOULD NOT counterclaim right after. he should wait for the next day. nad i will choose another possible scum to vig.

[hand banana]

i will not kill the person who claims.
after the night, if we don't get a counterclaim, it means that i named a real doc or cop (which i hope i will not do, but it's better to name them that to kill them, like that guy earwig did)

[hand banana]

no mass role claim..
other power roles are 100% useful for town. Vig can be, but it's not a great shame if he dies cause he can cause more harm to town then mafia. that's why i will be very causcious.

i'm not going to name more than 1 people per day. if we get a claim i will not kill that guy. and that one would have been the one i would kill without naming, if i haven't revealed myself in he first place. i think it's optimal strategy for my role at this time, but i'm opened for suggestions. as i said earlier it's much better to expose a doc that it is to kill him.
and i believe that there is a doc, it's more basic role than the vig. if mafia shoots at me and i get defended their chances of winning this would be zero.

[hand banana]

1. What made you think there wouldn't be any experienced and good players in the mafia to pick up on you hints that you were a power role?
2. As a townie, you should never deliberately act in a way that gets you votes.
3. As a townie, you shouldn't claim when you have only two votes. It makes it too easy for the mafia to gather information about the roles of the other players and thus determine their strategy.
4. Have you considered the possibility of just not using your ability tonight? In general, longer games (in game days) tend to benefit the town.

1. nothing. my plan does not work 100%. i hoped i will catch someone. and i did make some conclusions.
2. "never" doesn't really apply well to this game.
3. i planed on claiming from the beginning, and i did when i felt things are getting out of hand, and that nothing else useful can be done.
4. yes i have. i will name one guy. if i get a claim, i will not kill him nor anyone else.

[hand banana]

Everyone, don't claim just because hand banana is threatening to vig you. If hand banana does decide to kill someone without the support of a considerable number of people, I'll have no qualms whatsoever in lynching him the next day.

you are forgetting that lynch decisions all have scum factor involved in them. anything town declares is influenced by the scum. my decision is 100% pro town.

[hand banana]

Alright, fine. Out of curiosity, who would you name?

i'm not sure yet. if someone else gets voted, i guess it would be falcone, but my vote on him is based on a hunch more that facts, so i would be a little reluctant about naming right now.

[hand banana]

i don't get this.. "free nightkill"??

scum already has a free nightkill.
@panz: mafia will kill someone, i will kill someone, then you'll know.
(unless mafia decides not to kill in order to discredit me and my kill gets to be the only one )

[hand banana]

i wouldn't get NK'ed if doc protects me.
you would lynch me after that?

[hand banana]

well, anyone would claim in -1 from lynch. i really didn't have to claim..
and i explained all that.

FOS: Panzerjager

and about my strategy being " foolish and unnecessarily risky". i think unnecessarily risky is killing people without revealing that you are vig. would you rather had me killing secretly whoever i wanted than this? this way, at least i'm giving a chance to power-roles..

[hand banana]

Alright, so since you seem keen on naming people for a claim, who did you want to name?

i will see. if i'm not sure, i won't name anyone and i won't use night kill at all.

--

I think it would have been safer and more effective that way

it would be safer for scum. and for for me. yes, i will probably get killed right after the doc, but at least i will try not the damage the town, but to help it ...instead of almost all other vigs here (games i read so far, vigs really sucked and killed much townies).

[hand banana]

panzer you scum, you are so going down tonight.

[hand banana]

Wow, I've obviously missed out on alot of content while I was away. I just want to raise suspicion back onto Hand Banana, personally I don't believe his claim. The suspicion I would like to raise is on Post 127. In the last bit, didn't he outloy his future plan to catch scum, or did I misread it?

what???
future plan?
i explained my strategy about catching scum up to the point i claimed, nothing for the future.
the only future references were those about my nightkills.

so, now we have two scum (falcone and panzer) joining a very bad town player and supporting his ideas.. i'm very happy with my vote: falcone.. if situation remains the same and he doesn't com up with explanation for his scummy behavior i will use nightkill on panzer (of course, i will ask him to claim before that, and i would as soon as someone reaches -1 ).
but, on the other hand, i'd like this day to last at least as much as 8 more pages or so, cause maybe i'm wrong and i would like to hear other pro-town's players opinion on panzer and other players, before i rush things..

[hand banana]

OMGUS, eh? I don't like that at all, especially from a so-called vigilante.

it's not omgus. he was my prime suspect, and he knows it.

Handbanana could be lying and there is a another vig, you know

yeah, right.. i'd be an idiot to claim vig on L-5 on the first day if i were scum..
scum don't throw themselves in spotlight like that. and since i already said that i will be transparent about my N-kill, if i say for example: "i will kill XXX", and after the night we have YYYY and ZZZZ dead, that will prove that i'm scum.

[hand banana]

to quote alsleet:
"My main suspects now are probably you, Panzerjager, Tahrlinduhr. I'll have more details about that once I reread the game so far."

and to that, i said:
"gotta agree on those 2 /(in my mind there is 90% that at least one of them is scum),"
after that, panzer started to support nekka in his comments about me. so it's omgus from his side, not mine. and +, i'm almost sure he's scum, and also Tahrlinduhr seems much more pro-town now, but he could be faking it .

[hand banana]

it is true. vig and scum death scenes are different.

so you will know who was killed by mafia.
(i don't know what happens if both mafia and VIG shoot at the same person.. cause mafia will likely do this to set me up if i choose townie as my night kill, but mod should say something about 2 shots in the same person, so mafia will not be able to do that)

and SK death scene is different too, i guess, but mod will have to confirm about SK and VIG. that's the only way for me to really prove i'm vig or not.
stop being dumb, please.

[hand banana]

mod:

3 questions.
is there any difference between mafia and VIG nightkill death scene?
-||- VIG and SK death scene?
will the town know if both mafia AND vig shoot at the same person?

[hand banana]

and you call yourself pro town?

(especially since it's likely to out most or all of our power roles

wrong.
i will ask for claim only 1 person per day.
and if i hadn't claimed that one would be the one i killed.
so, i don't see how this damages the town.
outing a power role is much better than killing it, like other vigs did in games i read here.

and btw, i don't think i'm going to make many mistakes when i ask for claim.

so tell me, what is exactly wrong with my plan?
if you have a better one, go ahead and tell us..

[hand banana]

and this can lead to a very good situations for town..

say, you Tarhalindur, are a power role.. i pick my night kill, some other guy, and i ask that person to claim. he claims your role. you will then know that that person is scum. etc..

my plan for vig maximizes good sides of the role while minimizing possible damage (cause i will be very causcious and i will NOT kill a guy who claims, and that night i won't use nightkill at all.. if he's scum and claims role, the real role can expose him if he wishes, but that's his choice)
and as i said i will ask only person i suspect the most.

[hand banana]

OMGUS'ing anyone who speaks out against his plan to boot.

wrong again.
didn't omgus anyone.
i voted falcone. and i accused panzer before he accused me..

sorry for triple post

[hand banana]

i'm okay with that, if "town" decision doesn't include my prime suspects.

[hand banana]

edit: this sounds wrong. what i meant is this: i will not count my prime suspect's votes on who to should i kill.

[hand banana]

am i crazy or these guys are??
first of all:

(for example: X claims cop, Y counterclaims, town lynches X who turns out to be the real cop, at night you kill Y)

that Y guy would then be lynched, no need for nk from me. vig can NEVER be 100% sure or a guy who hasn't been lynched, unless he gets a another vig fake claim. so, if a vig is 100% sure (like in your example) town will also be 100% sure and lynch the guy.
so, all this you said is BS.

It seems like the possibility of not using your ability tonight, which is the correct play, hasn't even crossed your mind.

what??
i said that i will prob. not kill anyone like 1000 times!

By the way, don't you see how many people are disagreeing with your plan?

yes. i will lynch whoever town decides, but i will not count your vote, panzer's vote, Tarhalindur's vote (you're my scum sucpects), and nekka's vote (he's judgement is very poor)

[hand banana]

My question for everyone is, is it in the best interests of the town to lynch a claimed forced vig on Day 1, given that a forced vig is a town power role that is known to backfire horribly on the town?

haha.. damn this is scummy.
my role doesn't say anything about "forced" killing, so i guess i don't have to kill if i don't want to.
and i will not decide for myself. i will count the votes from he people that are not my suspects or a liability.

[hand banana]

Um, why has no one suggested just to handbanana the possibility of not killing tonight?

because you didn't read the game, that's why.

[hand banana]

panzer is only trying to save himself, because he knows he is my main suspect. know, again, he directs all the attention to me contrary to the town's interests, not even trying to find scum at all.

one by one:

he is selfish and on a powertrip

not at all. i said i will oblige town's wishes (with only my main suspects excluded), which i think is much more fair that playing vig secretly (and i had no reason to expose myself except for the benefit of town (to try and minimize killing pro town players))

He is SK

that's ridiculous. why would i expose myself if i was SK?
there's no way for me to win if i'm sk now that everyone knows that i have nightkills. if we eradicate all mafia (3 or 4), i'll be the only suspect. as soon as doctor dies i will die to, so there is 99% chance that i will not be alive at the end of the game. SK's don't sacrifice themselves, bacuse they have no greater goal than their own life. i have a team, and i exposed myself despite the fact that i knew i'll be dead as soon as doctor dies, cause i play what's best for the town, and not what's best for me...

What was the motive behind claiming vig so quick

read the game, i explained it at least 3 times.

On top of this he wants to kill me

no. i just said that at this time, you're the scummiest player here. IF nothing in my oppinion of you changes, i will ask you to claim. AND ONLY if majority of town players (excuding falcone, tar and nekka, agree to that.) and then again, i will not kill you if you claim ANY power-role (and since i believe that you are going to fake claim only to expose a real power role, 'cause you got nothing to loose, at least 1 person will know that you're scum.. it's up to him to decide weather he should expose you (and himself) or not).

If he is a vig, he is a detriment and should be dealt with

again,
very pro-town behavior.
i think my way of playing vig is the safest possible.

[hand banana]

because i want to exclude scum and liable influence on my decision.

[hand banana]

Just one thing FOR NOW, are Masons any useful to the town (seeming we have any)

yes, they're very useful.
-they can defend each other from being lynched
-they know of more town players, so they have fewer options (which is better) when hunting for scum.
-in case of mass role claim, we will have more pro-town roles
-they can claim if town wants them lyched, or if make a mistake and ask them to claim.

[hand banana]

well, i have to say that you have a point there, but things will change.. inactive players will become active or will be replaced.
i just say that it would be stupid that i vote for a guy to be lynched but to count his vote on who should i kill, don't you think so?

MOD! where are you?

prod, replace, count votes..

[hand banana]

i guess this is vote count, but i might be wrong
i got lost in all these pages, so if i made a mistake, correct me.
it's unofficial, so it's not a big deal if i did.


Khelvaster- 4 (~N9V~, Panzerjager, Falcone, AlSleet)
Panzerjager- 2 (rolandofthewhite, Elias_the_thief)
Falcone- 1 (hand banana)
hand banana- 1 (Nekka-Lucifer)
Tarhalindur- 1 (Jenter Brolincani)

Not voting (3): Khelvaster, ac1983fan, Tarhalindur

7 to lynch.

[hand banana]

the case against khelv. looks strong.
but i have a big problem voting for him, because my main suspects are strongly advocating his lynch. he was one of my suspects, though (in that 60% group).
if khlelv turns out to be scum, i guess that would clear both tar and falcone.
if he turns out to be townie, that doesn't mean anything, except that he played a sloppy game.
i think most of his mistakes were just a result of not paying attention, and that's usually the case with vanilla townies, not scum.
i don't know what to think about him. i'm close to voting him, but i don't want to be in the same group as my suspects.

khel is now at L-2
his lynch may come quick, so i need your suggestion for my NK, while there's still time.

@falcone: to tell you the truth, i don't remember specific posts now, and i'm to lazy to re-read the game right now. but it's my general feeling about you. i will do post by post analysis, and i will point out why i think you're scum if khelv doesn't get lynched or on day2 if he does.. it's pointless to do it right now.

[hand banana]

actually, it may be important 'cause falcone is the one of khelv voters.. i'm doing it right now.

[hand banana]

ok.. falcone

his second post in the game comes at #55:

Hand banana, why did you suspect khelvaster in post 36? Also, why the sudden change of heart about Nekka (posts 45 vs 48 & 50)?

i didn't like this part about nekka. i just explained why i removed my vote. it seemed to me as subtle scum strategy to make 2 townies fight each other. but it's all very vague.

Also, he claims to have found at least one scum (post 90) or even three scum (post 99), but he didn't give any reasons.

these are simply lies..
id didn't like his style here at all. i think he just picked up on nekka's mistake and he's trying to exaggerate arguments against me. and then he starts making them up.
then, after 5 pages, and only few of his posts..

- The point about playing just enough not to be called a lurker is stupid. You can't determine whether someone is a lurker just by looking at their post count. You also have to take into account the amount of actual content in their posts. I'll usually make one or two posts each day, and try to comment on as many issues as possible in those posts.

that content being:
-asked a couple of questions.
-made up something about me.
-said panzer is not suspicious at all.
that's all.
--
and then this:

Remember, being town doesn't mean you're going to decide correctly. Also, we can't actually be sure you're protown. Giving a possible scum a free nightkill of his choice would be terribly stupid.

when i asked about "what free nightkill" and pointed out that scum already
has a nightkill, he answered:

"That's why giving them an extra free nightkill would be disastrous."

i really didn't understand this, and it puzzled me for a very long time.
if i was scum, i wouldn't get an "extra free kill" by just a mere belief from town that i'm vig. and this came after i claimed. so he's making stuff up again, and subtly implying that i should be lynched.

then again, he sais he will be back with content on other players, but he disappears for couple of pages only to return with more false accussations for me:

It seems like the possibility of not using your ability tonight, which is the correct play, hasn't even crossed your mind.

it did. i said that at least couple of times.
then this:

The right way to play your role is not to claim unless absolutely necessary (as with most power roles) and not to kill unless you're extremely sure of someone being scum (for example: X claims cop, Y counterclaims, town lynches X who turns out to be the real cop, at night you kill Y).

yeah right.. the right way to play vig is not to claim, and to pick random players and kill them as he wishes. and all this with "Y" player. how the hell would he survive the day, and not get lynched if he claimed cop, and we have a dead cop??

By the way, don't you see how many people are disagreeing with your plan?

only 3. and 2 of them were my main suspects.
--
later he voted khelv and that's our current discussion.
so here are my conclusions:
he was very causcious with other players from the beginning. he made a couple of mistakes and contradictions only when he came after me. he never attacked anyone, but me, and jumped on khlev's bandwagon with reasons (in post 247) that don't seem believable to me at least.

-if khelv turns out to be scum, i think we should clear tar. falcone might be still scum, but he thinks khel is lost cause, and he just gives a couple of mild accusations. so, what i concluded right now is that khel's guit has nothing to do with falcone's.. if falcone is scum, that doesn't mean khel is innocent. and i would not like to see khel lyched before i see two of the in a discussion (khel and falcone).
right now i reconsidered everything i've read so far and:
falcone is scum 80%
khel is scum 55%

[hand banana]

i don't like this at all.
i wanted to defend khelv by saying that i think he's pro-town becauswe of the way he played before i claimed. i kinda got the impression that he sensed that i'm power role, and when votes started piling up on me, he backed up. there is no reason for scum to do that. i was unclaimed, suspicious, he wasn't even jumping on the bandwagon, cause he was one the first to suspect me..

but now, i don't like this claim at all. it was unnecessary, and unlike vig death, he death of doc or acop can seriously damage the town.
either way, i don't think we should pressure him to reveal his role.

[hand banana]

i like this less and less with every single post..

[hand banana]

Are you satisfied with these explanations or do you have more questions?

i'm not exactly overjoyed, and i'll leave questions for later, but for now, since only i'm the only one voting for you, it seems like a waste of vote.

Unvote: Falcone

just one more thing about my plan:
i don't like the idea of me killing "confirmed scum" for one simple reason - very possible existence of mafia role-blocker. if we find one "confirmed scum", and we decide that i should kill him, and town lynches some other guy and he turns out civilian, i get blocked, and we will have: my N.kill wasted, lynch wasted and again that one scum alive so we have to lynch him the other day again.
so: town should deal with "confirmed scum", not me. and i still think my plan rules!
----------

doesn't want to vote for someone he believes is scummy because other people that he feels are scummy are voting for him

exactly. other people (you for example) are way more scummier then he is.
if he's pro town, i really don't like his style of play (last couple of pages).
and his behavior about my "bandwagon" (it wasn't really bandwagon, but still), really gave me strong pro-town vibe from him, so i'm very reluctant to vote him right now.. those 2 reasons are equally important for my decision not to vote him..

and you are also getting scummier panzer.
you seem very happy with this confusion, and you also seem VERY assured that khelv is scum.

[hand banana]

again, since mod doesn't seem to care:

Vote Count:

Khelvaster- 4 (Falcone, Panzerjager, AlSleet, Tarhalindur)
Panzerjager- 2 (Elias_the_thief, rolandofthewhite)
Nekka-Lucifer- 1 (~N9V~)
Tarhalindur- 1 (Jenter Brolincani)

Not voting (4): Khelvaster, hand banana, Nekka-Lucifer, ac1983fan

7 to lynch.

correct me if i'm wrong.

[hand banana]

damn...
all my suspects are looking very pro town lately, and people i trusted behave very scummy..
i will decide between khelv and panzer, i just need a little more content from you guys and one thorough re-read.

either way, i don't want a full claim from khelv yet.
can anyeone confirm anything (any breadcrumb) in those 2 posts he made?

[hand banana]

i believe him..

vote:panzerjager

[hand banana]

hey, thanks!

[hand banana]

oh my.. in light of counter claim..

unvote: panzer

for now.
breadcrumbing does not clear any one of them at all.
i will need one more re-read now to place my vote.

[hand banana]

i guess my avatar is not really smart looking.

It’s hard to trust this guy. He says that it’s his style to jump on bandwagons. And then he claims really early. We are, of course, assuming that the mod didn’t give him vigilante as a safe claim. A little fishy to me.

what do you mean with "safe claim"? something like "hand banana, you're mafia, but you can safely claim following power- roles: ....." mods really do this here?
so.. i changed my mind about people i find scummy a lot, so i would like you guys not to rush lynch yet, because if it was up to me, i would lynch panzer a couple of pages ago, and i would *maybe* make a terrible mistake.
downside for this is: the longer this day lasts, we risk more power-roles exposed. and i guess we only have doc left. and he is the most important.
if a real doc sees fake doc claim, he should NOT counterclaim. this is very important. only if he's just about to be lynched.

[hand banana]

I am, however, quite inclined not to make ANY of the claims today's lynch.

i guess you're right.
when each one of them gives us the details of investigation, we will have more info, and we can make more informed decission. and i think it's better to let possible mafia escape for just one day, then to lynch a possible cop.

[hand banana]

khelv has a point there... but...
one thing just crossed my mind:

say panzer is scum.
i guess, after khel claimed, he felt that most likely he is the one who's getting lynched.
so he needs to claim, either to save himself or to expose a power role.

i guess that there is no point in claiming cop.
if i was him (in case he is mafia), i would claim doc. it's win-win situation. either he survives or exposes doc sacrificing himself. it doesn't make sense to claim cop, if he's not cop.
but, i guess this is wifom..
and maybe he just felt he has chance of eliminating the real cop (if khelv is real cop)

i really don't know, and i will probably not vote for either one of them today. better safe than sorry. i need investigations details from both of them.

[hand banana]

and while you wait, you could catch up to, and post some actual content.

[hand banana]

wow, what???

we now have 2 claimed cops, and 4 claimed masons?
haha

are you guys kidding me..
when i saw the title "Just another game of Mafia..." i expected just the opposite, but this..... omg.

can there be 2 sets of masons??


if we have so much power roles, then mafia has roleblockers, godfathers and whatnot. but since i will publicly say who i'm going to vig, if i get roleblocked, we'll have a target for lynch the next day (unless mafia blocks me even if i want to kill townie, so that we use our lynch on him the next day, depriving the town of one lynch.. bah.. it's all wifom, and it's all f-ed up).

ok.. i am against the lynch of claimed cops.
i am for lynch of one of the claimed masons. i will 99% not use NK tonight.

--
i think that first masons that claimed are scum. i think their reasoning was: since there are so many power roles, there are no masons, and we should breadcrumb/claim it. but they were wrong..

this scenario is much more likely then 2 mafia guys juts exposing themselves counterclaiming the real masons.
makes no sense to me.
so in my eyes jenter and rishi are clear.

nekka and alsleet are either scum (which is more probable) or other pair of masons (less probable).
-------
and i will vote for either one of them. but i will not vig the other on the first night because they can be masons. if one of them turns scum, i'll vig the other on the next day.

--

one more thing: can there be a 2 pairs of masons but both pairs consisting of one townie and one scum? that would be very bad for us.

[hand banana]

now nv9 claims mason?


ok, so we def. have pairs of masons that consist of

one townie + one scum!

this is not bad at all, as i thought, but very good.

every town player now knows that his mason partner is actually scum.
only thing is to determine which one is what.

[hand banana]

so:

vote: Jenter Brolincani

because i think rishi's reaction to the first claim is sincere.. and he is a townie mason.
the same goes for ~N9V~.
~N9V~ - expose your partner, cause i think he's scum.

alsleet and nekka - i don't know who is what.

[hand banana]

i have a new strategy.

we have 3 pairs of masons (maybe even 4, we'll see about that).

there is no doubt in my mind that every pair consists of one townie + one scum.

so there we have:

1st pair: nekka and alsleet
i'm not sure
50%-50%

2nd pair: rishi and jenter
i'm pretty sure
5%-95%

3rd pair: N9V and XXX
also, pretty sure NV is town
5% - 95%

and my plan is: we lynch jester, and i Night Kill NV's partner.
ok with that?

and panzer khelv situation will be resolved when we get theris investigations.
i think town wins easily in this game.

[hand banana]

I am very, very confused. This means there might be two cops as well.

no, that means that your partner is scum, if you're not.

[hand banana]

and yes, of course, cop investigates either nekka or alsleet. both cops. whatever.

[hand banana]

double-claiming masons

triple claiming.
re-read last pages. i voted jenter because i think his mason partner is townie.
they are all indeed masons.

[hand banana]

there is.


and it's possible that there are 4 scum if there are vig, cop, doc?, masons etc..
and it's also possible that there are 3 scum and both you and panzer are cops, but with sanity issues.

[hand banana]

I dont feel like waiting for N9V. I've returned, and I am his mason partner. My PM says nothing about his innocence/guilt however.

what do you think, about my theory?
either him or you gotta be scum?

[hand banana]

6 calimed masons.
who agrees with me that we have 3 pairs of town-scum masons?

[hand banana]

and this:

Vote Rishi MAJOR FoS Jemter

is the reason, i'm *possibly* going to kill elias (if i don't get enough defence).

n9 woudn't jsut randomly pick one and major fosed the other if he was scum nad knew about scum-townie pairs.

[hand banana]

kill n9v?
no, i'm planning to kill elias.

i have no reason to believe you more than i do panzer.

[hand banana]

1.Are you kidding me? 2. If I were scum why would I openly out myself, with all the discussion of scum/town pairings and scum/scum pairings, why would I do that? 3. If me and N9V were a scumpair it would be completely stupid for me to claim. 4.I cant speak for N9V, but I'm protown.

i inserted numbers in his post, so i could answer them:

1. no
2. there are no scum/scum mason pairings, only scum/townie (and if falcone is right there might be one townie-townie pair and that's the only reason i will reconsider my decision about you, cause i'm pretty sure N9V is townie). and you outed yourself because n9V would out you right after he reads the last page anyways.
3. yeah, but n9v is not scum, there are no scum/scum mason pairs, and this point makes no sense at all.
4. ok. i don't believe you right now, BUT i only base this on his reaction and an assumption that all mason pairs are scum-townie. so, as i said, i will seriously reconsider my decision.

[hand banana]

4. Both he and n9v are scum.

no, it's unlikely that 2 masons are both scum. not just unlikely but impossible.

3. He is scum and n9v is town. Very unlikely--elias/roland are much less scummy than some other people in this game.

well, to me, this scenario has probability of about 95%, if there are no townie/townie pairs, as i said on last page.

[hand banana]

3. um, how do you know that N9V isnt scum? So far he's random voted, counterclaimed a mason claim, and fosed based on this. What exactly makes him seem protown to you as opposed to me?

ok.. i will explain my train of thoughts about you and him.

so, first i realized this: there are 3 mason pairs.
mafia counterclaiming masons would be stupid.
so then, all 3 pairs are REALLY masons.
only way this could ever be in a setup is if every pair consists of one townie + one scum.
so, you and n9v are a pair.
one of you is scum, the other one is townie.
and then he said this:

Two, sets of Masons is really, really unlikely. Vote Rishi MAJOR FoS Jemter

it seems to me he wants to lynch them both, and he actually believes that they are fake masons.
scum would
1. know that there are more masons
2. would not react like that, wanting to lynch both of them.
so, n9v is townie.
that means you're scum.

similar reasoning led me to believe rishi is townie, and jeneter is scum.
that's why i said want to lynch jenter and kill you.
about 3rd pair nekka and alsleet, i'm not sure, and i would like both cops to investigate ONLY ONE OF THEM. and this has to be pre-aranged because of that thing falcone mentioned about 2 cops being able to investigate only one mafia family.
(to give an example: say there are really 2 cops. and say nekka is scum. and khel can detect him but panzer can't. panzer investigates him, and khel investigates other guy, and we have nothing. only way we ca be sure is if we pre-determine cops investigations)

so @ both cops (if we really have 2 cops): investigate nekka.
if we do this,
i'm pretty sure that we will have 2 scum dead in the morning, and 3rd mason pair will also be exposed. if falcone is right and we have 2 cops we will either get 2 results on nekka (1 guilty and 1 innocent) or 2 innocent, and we'll know who to lynch on day 2.
if i make a mistake and kill the wrong guy, in worst case scenario, we will have 1 more day.
i think this game is practically allready won.
who's with me?

[hand banana]

what? you think that there are 6 masons, 2 cops and a vig, in a 12 player setup?
you gotta be kidding me.

that's 9 people.
other 3 are then mafia.
that has to be the most ridiculous setup ever.
9 power roles and 3 mafia.

mass role claim, and game is over.
every mason pair is scum+townie. if we kill a townie by mistake, only thing we need to do is to kill the other guy. and cop is also VERY important cause in a setup like this 1 investigation count for 2!!!
cause he clears one guy, and accuses the other.

[hand banana]

I honestly think it's the setup.

unvote: Jenter

i'm not that sure anymore about you and jenter.

[hand banana]

to tell you the truth, i didn't expect and elias to abide but what are you afraid of?

There are many different situations that can explain the six mason claim

like what?
there is only 1. and that is if all 6 are genuine. there's no reason for townie to lie, and there's no reason for scum to expose themselves like that. and not to mention the fact that absolutely no one was under any kind of pressure when all these claims came.

[hand banana]

damn!!!!
yes, i killed jenter (sorry man )
it killed him because i was 100% convinced that every mason pair was consisted of one scum+one town, and rishi gave me a very strong town vibe.

i was thinking between him and alsleet, but i thought alsleet (being nekka's patner) is the clearest choice for town now tat nekka is dead and turned up innocent, and then all i need to do is to choose elias or his partner on night 2 and this game is over.

i really have no idea what to do now, and i guess we're screwed. assuming it was 9-3, we now have 6-3 in favor of town.
but if it was 8-4, we now have 5-4 and it's almost LyLo.

and i think maybe it could be 5-4 since we only had one mafia kill (rishi). no 2 mafia families.
so it's either 4 mafia alive (because there's way to much power roles, and game needs to be balanced), or half of these power roles are liars and they are mafia.

[hand banana]

who advanced the pairings in the first place

i guess that was me.

[hand banana]

no...

two mason pairs turned out to be legit

i don't agree, and i don't see why would you.
ONE pair is legit.
the other is completely unknown to us, and your mason partner was innocent but that means nothing.
and since mod is writing "innocent mason", i guess there must be other masons.
but i will not press this idea, and i will not shoot at masons any more if town disagrees .. . and i don't even know should i trust town any more, cause in a situation of 5-4 my night kill is the only thing that keeps us from LyLo. and right now, i don't have a single confirmed townie i could trust. we have 2 cops, 2 docs 3 masons and a pair of unclaimed guys.. i don't like this at all.

[hand banana]

eidt: only one unclaimed.

[hand banana]

1:Falcone - claimed Doc
2:Khelvaster - claimed Cop
3:Elias_the_thief - claimed Mason
4:hand banana - claimed Vig
5:Belgarion ~N9V~ - Claimed Mason
6:Panzerjager - Claimed Cop
7:AlSleet - Claimed Mason
10:ac1983fan - made no claim
12:Tarhalindur - Claimed Doc

Dead - 3/12


9:Nekka-Lucifer, Innocent Mason Modkilled D1
11:Jenter Brolincani, Innocent Mason, Killed N1
8:rolandofthewhite Rishi, Innocent m\Mason Killed N1

[hand banana]

where is panzer and his investigation?
since we entered the day before the deadline for night choices, he must have been here if he was cop.
more and more, i believe we have one doc and one cop, 2 fake scum claims. and maybe 1 or 2 scum as masons too.

and ac1983fan situation is intriguing.. there can't be just ONE vanilla townie. either we have fake townie claims or he's scum. in that case, i believe we have 4 scumz. him , one fake cop+doc and one hiding in masons..

[hand banana]

i knew i should have vigged elias in the first place, instead of jenter.. but i guess if i did that and elias was guilty i would have vigged jenter on night 2 so we would have the same situation..

so

Vote: elias_the_thief

i see this bandwagon rising fast, so before we lynch, suggest a nightkill for me ASAP-

[hand banana]

hmm.. one thing just came to my mind..
hypothetically, if it's 5:4 right now, and panzer is scum and pulling this on us, worst case scenario is that we kill a townie, scum kills a townie, and we have 4:3 for scum.
and if i manage to kill one scum we have 3:3. what happens in that case, considering that town (that is: me) also has a nightkill? i guess we can't have a consensus for lynch and mafia wins if they kill me, and it's a draw if i manage to survive till the last round (surviving 3:3, then 2:2, and in the end staying with one scum... )
i don't like the fact tar didn't consider that posibility at all.

unvote

fos : tar

[hand banana]

ok, who do you think i should vig, and should i use night kill at all?

[hand banana]

damn... BOTH COPS INVESTIGATE ONE PERSON!
and i want that to be Tarhalindur.

that's the only way to know if we have sanity issues.
i'll vig ac (if he turns up town, it's not my fault, cause he can't be the only one that has no power role, and if townies lied about being power roles, it's their fault),
so panzer DO NOT INVESTIGATE him.

[hand banana]

actually, i will not rush with sending that NK.
i will re-read, and then decide.

[hand banana]

someone please suggest a NK for me before mod is here! ASAP!

[hand banana]

i hope he will (he was my prime suspect one page ago.), cause if he doesn't and there is 4 mafia, town lost this game already.
and that's the main reason i withdrew my vote, i wanted to slowly reconsider everything.
i can't understand why town voted so quickly..

omg i just realized something.....!!!!
even in case of 3 mafia, there are 5 civilians.
and i unvoted.
so if he was scum, there could only be 4 townie votes for him. and he got 5!
so HE IS NOT SCUM. why would one scum vote for his own team mate when i unvoted???

i think i'll vig panzer tonight.

and tar, my question was: if you were vig, who would you vig tonight?
suggestions, fast, while we wait for mod!

[hand banana]

EDIT:: nope, sorry, i'm retarded, if there are 3 scum, 6 townies are alive, not 5. so i guess, town could lynch him without me, if ALL 5 voted.

[hand banana]

ok, but why no one suggested anything regarding my NK yet?

[hand banana]

first of all, i think you and panzer need to make deal and choose one player to investigate. both of you.
and no, i will not hit one doc randomly tonight.

other players' suggestions for my NK?

[hand banana]

first of all, i think you and panzer need to make deal and choose one player to investigate. both of you.

one reason is to determine something from your behavior, other reason is that i know not to vig that guy, it would be a waste of investigation.

[hand banana]

ok, we'll go with 3 mafia, cause we already lost this game if there are 4 of them.
and how about this worse case scenario:

Elias is innocent
i kill a real doc
mafia kills townie.

in that case it's 3-3 and game is over. and that scenario is enough for me not kill if i'm not at least 90% sure that someone is scum. and 50 is far from 90.

and since i'm not taking that risk, i don't care what are possible benefits.