NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #2425 (ISO) » Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:21 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

@thread procedural fluff with Egg.

In post 2411, Egg wrote:Just the all black ones are impossible to read without copying and pasting and risking losing my own post.

yeah I can get with the program *1
Black spoilers suck.

Spoiler: gee I like actual words x n
becuase you said, I believe, your problem was with >spoilers< not black ones. (with no link and my recent posts had named spoilers...)
named spoilers break up posts in a way i sometimes dont like (changes meaning a bit(adds artificial paragraph breaking up a thought) ) as spoilers with names also add white space. They are not just an aside.

However i have frequently resisted black spoilers as ... they're ugly and I dont like forcing mouse over to read. (with phones, it would be gak I see that)
I will make a strong attempt to include any black spoiler as labelled plain text at the bottom of the post. (aka, as per a footnote)


*1 Black spoilers suck

/PSA
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Post Post #2426 (ISO) » Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:26 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 2420, Shiro wrote:
I guess best wagon is Anen. His posts seem off and coming right out of a game that he was town(even if I was maf) his post don't have the same town vibe they had there.

So link to one... a specific post you claim is "off" "doesnt have the same town vibe"

I don't really know how to explain this tbh. Has GM noted anything similar to that ? If I recall Tier has and he was in the same game I speak of.

If you quote somethign and discuss it. You will either realise you are right and convince others or wrong.

Either way, would look townier than what you just did.
Doing so (being specific about which post) is risky if you are scum of course...
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Post Post #2427 (ISO) » Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:48 pm

Post by Muffin »

Fine, whatever, compromise lynch:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: aneninen
One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.
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Post Post #2428 (ISO) » Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:10 pm

Post by T S O »

Imagine if you actually gave a reason for me being scum?
Or even responded to me proving your Pere accusation against me was terrible?
Wouldn't that be magical?
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #2429 (ISO) » Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:34 pm

Post by Scripten »

In post 2428, T S O wrote:Imagine if you actually gave a reason for me being scum?
Or even responded to me proving your Pere accusation against me was terrible?
Wouldn't that be magical?


This.

Muffin:
Or, at least, give a reason why you will not post your case? My light townread on you is slipping, and I don't like that.
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Post Post #2430 (ISO) » Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:02 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 2428, T S O wrote:Imagine if you actually gave a reason for me being scum?
Or even responded to me proving your Pere accusation against me was terrible?
Wouldn't that be magical?

I really haven't been doing much more than skimming since thursday so I missed these, I guess.

Signal:noise ratio in this game is p bad tbh, where did you ask these?

Scripten wrote:
In post 2428, T S O wrote:Imagine if you actually gave a reason for me being scum?
Or even responded to me proving your Pere accusation against me was terrible?
Wouldn't that be magical?


This.

Muffin:
Or, at least, give a reason why you will not post your case? My light townread on you is slipping, and I don't like that.

why do I care if people are townreading me? I'm here to find scum not to be read as town.
One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.
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Post Post #2431 (ISO) » Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:11 pm

Post by Scripten »

In post 2430, Muffin wrote:
why do I care if people are townreading me? I'm here to find scum not to be read as town.


Up to you to decide that. But it'd be nice if you'd post your reason for pushing a TSO wagon if you want people to vote him.
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Post Post #2432 (ISO) » Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:11 pm

Post by goodmorning »

In post 2413, Thor665 wrote:I'm not asking for an essay, I'm asking how you feel about the wagon you are currently on considering the votes that have supported it.

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned in this game that I don't understand why people get weirded out by other people on the same wagons, so if that's your whole point in asking me the question then it's kind of a waste of time.

It shouldn't require a day, and even if you lazed off that day you should have been able to swing it sometime within the following 72 hours.

I definitely just said I'd do it tomorrow, so why not stop being a dick about it?

In post 2415, davesaz wrote:I'm trying to poke gm and she seems to be ignoring me.

Quote it and I'll get back to you.

In post 2420, Shiro wrote:He was the only one trying to get town to do anythimg early on and kept it up.

Just going to point out that it's really easy to ask for activity from people.

Has GM noted anything similar to that ? If I recall Tier has and he was in the same game I speak of.

Not really, but then I haven't really been reading his posts since the whole TSO thing.
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Post Post #2433 (ISO) » Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:00 pm

Post by beastcharizard »

I am like halfway done.
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Post Post #2434 (ISO) » Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:11 pm

Post by Shiro »

Axl wrote: If you quote somethign and discuss it. You will either realise you are right and convince others or wrong.

I would link to the game itself but he said himself his isn't playing in the same way. I guess understable since that was a newbie game and this is a 21 people thingy

GM wrote:Just going to point out that it's really easy to ask for activity from people.


You can't disagree thought that he has acted pretty town. You said his tone is off but I don't really know how his tone is supposed to be.

It is funny cause about halfway the game I felt really comfortable sheeping his decision it after a bit when he that my view on pere changed a bit xD

Btw since we have 3 neighboorhoods is it the chance of scum in each really high or speculation ?
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Post Post #2435 (ISO) » Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:03 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 2434, Shiro wrote:
Axl wrote: If you quote somethign and discuss it. You will either realise you are right and convince others or wrong.

I would link to the game itself but he said himself his isn't playing in the same way. I guess understable since that was a newbie game and this is a 21 people thingy




The suggestion was you quote the posts from this game that give you those impressions

You said
In post 2420, Shiro wrote: [...] Anen. His
posts
seem off
[...]


but so far i have no idea which posts you are talking about. (makes it hard for me to ask you questions or form a judgement whether you are making stuff up(scum) or trying to work stuff out (town)
please quote which
posts
and indicate in what way they
seem off
.
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Post Post #2436 (ISO) » Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:27 pm

Post by Shiro »

Hmmm first of the pigeon jokes felt off I had hard time believing that the person that made a complicated impssible to see crypto message acted that way.

He had many posts that made little sense but screamed screamed town. I don't really see that here either

His approach to being top counterwagon want as defensive.

I get the feeling he is more laid back here but that might be cause of his TSO interaction which would have made most people go fuck it.

Tier has a point though half a newbie game isn't sufficient meta to cross check.

That is on top of my head. Will read his and Pere ISOs when I get home to try and make a better conclusion .
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Post Post #2437 (ISO) » Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:32 pm

Post by Garmr »

back just spent the weekend partying on a speed boat full of alcohol will catch up.
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Post Post #2438 (ISO) » Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:57 pm

Post by Slandaar »

In post 2408, goodmorning wrote:If you mean 239, I was still walking through his questioning, pruning out the weak points. I didn't read him as Town before I finished questioning him.

That's the one.

Let's get this straight then. You didn't have a townread before finishing questioning but he never answered/responded to your huge wall post... where exactly did this townread come from then?
In post 2408, goodmorning wrote:Because I never thought he was Scum. He was a nullread with a weird case on TSO whom I questioned for thought process and found it present.

Yes well you never said it explicictly but...
In post 62, goodmorning wrote:Sorry, rolefishing isn't scummy now?

This does have implications...

Have a good morning :]
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Post Post #2439 (ISO) » Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:32 am

Post by Slandaar »

In post 2419, Thor665 wrote:Well...what the hell dude?
1. That's not what I was saying.
2. Even if you thought it was - the question is why Pere thought it was *scummy* that I was saying that.
3. What the hell is this pedant spiral you want us in?

PV's experience is this happens 29% of the time. He sees you who has also played a lot and he thinks you should think similar to him that multiball (two scumteams) is not too likely (29%).

So, when he sees your multiball post, he thinks you wouldn't assume this if you were town thus it seems suspicious to him and in his reads list he posts this.

There you go. This is what his meta should have told you and even if you don't like the argument you can understand it.

So, at this point where he has posted the meta, we can now agree nothing is scummy. It's a bad argument that is it.
In post 2419, Thor665 wrote:So?
You did say his case made sense - and I said it doesn't.

So? you misinterpreted my meaning and I was correcting you.

The 'case' does make sense read above.
In post 2419, Thor665 wrote:You seem, like him, to be focused on whether he is statistically correct which though I disagreed that he was had NOTHING to do with my scum case on him

Of course it matters your argument is his argument doesn't make any sense but when the % is lower it makes more and more sense. It's like if someone just randomly assumes SK in a mini normal that is suspicious due to the % chance there is an SK they shouldn't be assuming it.

The rest of the post:
I know how it came across because I read it all with an independent view. You do not have this benefit, you can only think about how you intended it to come across and how you think it would have.

The SK introduction did not come over well at all - it was very out of the blue.
In post 557, Thor665 wrote:Please provide me a link to all the 21+ player games you have been in recently that were not multiball.
I presume it's a majority?

He responds showing this is the case and you throw in SK's to 'explain' you meant SK's in multiball too but obviously PV didn't.

You know if you had just said 'I meant SK's in multiball' and seen what he said things would have gone better. Instead you made it sound like that was obvious so he responds with the wiki link and accuses of discrediting because of how you responded being terrible.
In post 2419, Thor665 wrote:I clarified everything

Where do you think you clarified everything - what exact point are you talking about?
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Post Post #2440 (ISO) » Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:32 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

Still not seeing the links to posts in this game.
In post 2436, Shiro wrote:Hmmm first of the pigeon jokes felt off I had hard time believing that the person that made a complicated impssible to see crypto message acted that way.


You say : "I had hard time believing that the person that made a complicated impssible to see crypto message acted that way"
1/
. does that lead you to the conclusion he is more likely to be scum? why/how?

pigeon posts go back to here. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p5962781 at least and
In post 429, Thor665 wrote:
In post 427, Muffin wrote:The pigeon thing is getting really old, really fast.

You should have tried living through it's creation - I think I was over it by the third reference. When it showed up this game... :cry:

(The post above is a reference by Thor to a previous completed game where Aneninen posted the pigeon posts for the first time. )
so I think its in his meta, so reading it as weird (scummish) would mean(require) looking at in previous in game contexts and see if he's using it the same or faking.
IIRC, how he used them in the past, it(the pigeon poop posts) does not feel weird or off to me. (that they exist at all is unusual... yes)

He had many posts that made little sense but screamed screamed town. I don't really see that here either

His approach to being top counterwagon want as defensive.

2/
What would have been towny?


I get the feeling he is more laid back here but that might be cause of his TSO interaction which would have made most people go fuck it.

3/
Is that alignment indicative to you? Which way?


Tier has a point though half a newbie game isn't sufficient meta to cross check.

That is on top of my head. Will read his and Pere ISOs when I get home to try and make a better conclusion .


IME, Its way easier to think OMG that guy looks soooooo town, when you know.

4/
Would you expect him not to be defensive after posts like this?
In post 426, T S O wrote:What would you grade your reading ability, out of 10? Right now it's a 3 and going down constantly.

In post 481, T S O wrote:Do I have to respond to Aneninen's posts of bad?


So again
I am asking that when you read Aenninen's filter in this game and you find posts that make you think he might be scum,

5/
post specifically which Aneninen post those are.
then post why they make him scum.

(Note pretty much the same questions, for anyone else if you change your mind about who is scum)
(I like reasons that refer to stuff in the game. Townies are mant to read the game then form conclusions, scum can and often have to just make stuff up.)

Do note:
I and hopefully everyone else can see, your join date, and read your last completed game.
This is not me grilling you. I have tried pretty hard to make fair questions you can answer. (Some more challenging i hope than others)
(I have not yet read your previous games)
I also see
Shiro: "That is
on top of my head
. Will read his and Pere ISOs
when I get home
to try and make a better conclusion .
and understand the limitations of being in a less than ideal position to evaluate a big game.

Also if you have, in your view and judgement more productive things to do than answer these do that, then deal with this stuff tomorrow (game day).
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Post Post #2441 (ISO) » Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:50 am

Post by Garmr »

axle this is the last time I'm going to talk about that initial conversation with anne

fuck It here it goes. What I found scummy was I didn't like the he stopped my pressure on boon at the time boon was a weak scum read and I wanted more reactions to get a feel for him. Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand. I believe he had to try and discredit because I don't think he was expecting to be questioned on 418 becuase he just labeled me as scum because of my reasoning for voting boon and getting lost early in the game, if he is going to label me as scum for my reasoning he should be able to show why it's flawed and then explain the scum motivation behind my post.

Plus I have Labeled other reasons why I think annenien is scummy especially His victim complex in post 1003 and he continues to show it in 1050 trying to gain sympathy.

That's the short of it.
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Post Post #2442 (ISO) » Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:06 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 2438, Slandaar wrote:Let's get this straight then. You didn't have a townread before finishing questioning but he never answered/responded to your huge wall post... where exactly did this townread come from then?

Hmmm that is a bum note in GMs filter.

Spoiler: wall + the non reply
This reply does not inspire towny confidence as reply to
In post 251, Csareo wrote:@Goodmorning- I'll get to your questions later, once I have more available time


this wall of accusatory questions
In post 239, goodmorning wrote:
[...#muffin stuff..]
In post 232, Csareo wrote:Does that help you understand why I might be trying to get off the TSO wagon?

So basically you're concerned that it's making you look bad?
Hmmmmmmmmmm.

explaining Nero snipped and that

So you're scumreading him because he makes jokes? I don't think he's directing anyone anywhere in particular.

- Humor and Misdirection

I really don't see TSO either being humourous or attempting to direct conversation.

- Meta Change

How many games have you played with TSO? Because as far as I can tell I've played in 6 at least with him, not counting any games where either of us was in hydra.
I know a fair amount about his meta and the way it's developed, particularly this new slightly less fucks given style (which I like a bit better than the somewhat abrasive TSO of yesteryear).
I'm not sure whether you do.

- The interaction where he showers me in compliments until you guy's don't

I don't think that happened; or, if it had, that it would be alignment-indicative.

- RVS voting me while also giving me a compliment

1) not sure that was meant as a compliment
2) that's kind of what happens when you RV. The number of times I've randomly voted someone with a "HIIIII" or an alarmingly cheery smiley is far greater than the number of times I've yelled something like "SCUM OMG" or "DEATH TO THE WEST" or something.

- Keeping RVS vote on me after calling me town about a dozen times after

This did happen, but why do you find it scummy?

- Refusing to answer ^

Refusing to answer anything is never a scumtell.

- How others joined my wagon when it became obvious TSO slipped on my meta

How is others joining your wagon indicative of TSO-Scum?

- He actually keeps up with the VI gambit unnecessarily for several posts

I don't think that was a gambit and I don't think he found it unnecessary.

- Thor Votes TSO and says he'll vig me (this needs more looking into)

But what does that have to do with TSO being Scum??

- Refusing to answer my questions and being anti-town

Being anti-Town is also not a scumtell.

P-EDIT: Please show me where I've said you're Scum. I'll wait.

You said you had a read on me of some sort. I'd like to see it explained, yeah?


Id like to know where that town read came from.... a lot... today

VOTE: Goodmorning
The above + Tone() + ...
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Post Post #2443 (ISO) » Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:25 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 2419, Thor665 wrote:I'm not even wall quoting the rest, I think this is the curx.


here is some more crux.

@Thor Lets assume that as I have poor logic I have reached the conclusion that you have lost and will continue to lose the argument with Slaandar.
Now while that may not be true (from your POV) it is my vote, and so its only my logic that really matters.

Ok so thats done.

Why else should I be lynching PereV today,
If I squint, and I did (when I consolidated on what appeared to be the least worst wagon), I can find 'scummy' stuff in PereVs filter, but I have poor logic,
(I also reckon I found at least one thing i dont like in yours.. However past experience (reading games you played) tells me I can find things I don't like in your filter when you are town.
and note just like PereV they dont have to right/valid things, indeed as you flip town, they alone are demonstrably not reliably alignment indicative.)
Wat do.

Well I want to see how well
In post 848, Thor665 wrote:He is not only doing a slow start (which I might buy as town him) but is pairing it with sloppy reads and not really looking over the thread

What sloppy reads are there?
Particularly ones that are not all mixed up in your interpretation of MB, and what ought or ought not be scum indicative.
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Post Post #2444 (ISO) » Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:30 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

EBWOP

Well I want to see how well
In post 848, Thor665 wrote:He is not only doing a slow start (which I might buy as town him) but is pairing it with sloppy reads and not really looking over the thread

line up with thoughts in my head, but ones I am no longer comfortable lynching (besides GMs tone is off on that town read)

What sloppy reads are there that PereV made?
Particularly ones that are not all mixed up in your interpretation of MB, and what ought or ought not be scum indicative when said about MB.
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Post Post #2445 (ISO) » Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:31 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 2432, goodmorning wrote:I definitely just said I'd do it tomorrow, so why not stop being a Smurf about it?

Because this is the second time. I was a total believer of you the first time. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

In post 2439, Slandaar wrote:He sees you who has also played a lot and he thinks you should think similar to him that multiball (two scumteams) is not too likely (29%).

So, when he sees your multiball post, he thinks you wouldn't assume this if you were town thus it seems suspicious to him

Well, first off, ignoring that a greater than 1/4 and slightly less than 1/3 chance *is* safe to assume, and also ignoring that I have been given by you burden of explanation, but he's allowed as his first response to go 'ooooh, scummy' instead of asking me why I believe what I said first, let's get to something I find odder.

Why does he presume to now how I would think?
You don't seem to do this.
I don't do this to others.
Yet it's integral for your town case on him that he expects Thor to think like he does...which evidence actually suggests is not true between us as players.
So why do you think he thought this? Which is also an odd trip inside his head on your part.

In post 2439, Slandaar wrote:Where do you think you clarified everything - what exact point are you talking about?

You are well aware of when I said I counted SKs.
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Post Post #2446 (ISO) » Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:35 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 2443, AxleGreaser wrote:Why else should I be lynching PereV today,
If I squint, and I did (when I consolidated on what appeared to be the least worst wagon), I can find 'scummy' stuff in PereVs filter, but I have poor logic,
(I also reckon I found at least one thing i dont like in yours.. However past experience (reading games you played) tells me I can find things I don't like in your filter when you are town.
and note just like PereV they dont have to right/valid things, indeed as you flip town, they alone are demonstrably not reliably alignment indicative.)
Wat do.

Apparently your what do is asking me for logic to allow you to sheep a case you want to be on record against.

Do you or don't you support the Pere wagon? Act accordingly.

Also, it is dumb to ask me 'what are his sloppy reads...oh, not counting the read you were actively calling sloppy at that point in time'.
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Post Post #2447 (ISO) » Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:37 am

Post by Thor665 »

Also I don't care, really - since I'm about the only player who tried during Day 1...shock of shocks, my wagon is the only one with weight. People thinking 'need a lynch before deadline!' are going to provide derp and terrible reasons to vote in support of either my wagon or worse ones to vote the wagon on Anen.

Frankly this town deserves what is coming, I am so annoyed at so many of you.
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Post Post #2448 (ISO) » Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:39 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 2350, Aegor wrote:
Day 1 deadline:
(expired on 2014-10-27 20:25:38)

I mean, look at this.

I think Pere is currently still L-5 (I haven't re-checked)
He is the biggest wagon with the next being L-7.

We basically have 24 hours.

All of you suck.
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Papa Smurf
User avatar
User avatar
Thor665
Papa Smurf
Papa Smurf
Posts: 33454
Joined: October 11, 2009
Location: Venice, FL

Post Post #2449 (ISO) » Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:41 am

Post by Thor665 »

And before any of you start up the whine.

Sure, I'm a dick for saying you all suck - I admit it, I'm a jerk.
That said, why are we at basically a 50% to lynch wagon with less than 24 hours till deadline in a large with multiple extensions?
Do all of you who are annoyed I said you suck find that to be *optimal* play?
Do you find it to be *good* play?
Do you think towns should *try* to be like that?

Unless you said 'yes' to at least two of those - you should be aware there is some level of fail here.
And if you did say yes - let me know, so I can never play in another large with any of you.
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