Mini 462: Just another game of Mafia... over

[Khelvaster]

mull my townspeople? What's that mean? :p

[Khelvaster]

Just for that reasonable interpretation,

Vote: Nekka-Lucifer

:p

[Khelvaster]

Unvote

That vote was a joke. Just in case it actually would count, i'm unvoting :p

[Khelvaster]

Hand Banana: If you need help translating something or don't know what a word means, use google translator. The website is http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en . By the way, where are you from?

[Khelvaster]

FoS: Handbanana

If the townie's scum, saying they are very aggresive would be an excuse for BWing. It just sounds wierd.

[Khelvaster]

flubadubdub, wonder how this game will go.

[Khelvaster]

For not having posted yet

Unvote, vote: ac1983fan

[Khelvaster]

Where is ac? He still hasn't posted.

[Khelvaster]

I've got suspicions on 3 players; names I will not say for the moment unless they start acting abit more town.

That sounds fine to me. If you think someone's scum, it's best to let them go on showing scumtells than to tell them what to correct. Panzerjager, your argument against this isn't very good.

[Khelvaster]

nekka definitely seems like an inexperienced townie to me.

[Khelvaster]

good point with the fos: lurker hunting. Scum tend not to be absolute lurkers.

[Khelvaster]

I'm sorry for having been so confusing. I voted the lurker because I didn't want you guys thinking I was indecisive or lurking, then handbanana pointed out that lurker hunting isn't a good thing.

Unvote

if I haven't already.

[Khelvaster]

wait...my bad. Was it nekka who didn't want to hunt lurkers? I wholeheartedly agree with that now that I think about it. I was just pretty much panicking and trying to contribute something so people wouldn't think I was lurking.

[Khelvaster]

Because I didn't know what else to do. There really isn't anyone being scummy yet, and I felt bad just sitting back, so I attacked a lurker to try and do something.

[Khelvaster]

The more important question, however, was the one you didn't answer.

So, do tell me Khelvaster, why would you be worried by people thinking that you're lurking?

Because if people think I'm lurking, I will seem more scummy than if I am not lurking. I think you're forgetting, town-aligned people don't want to look any scummier than scum-aligned people do.

[Khelvaster]

You feel like they are all very active, implying you know who they are all

[Khelvaster]

if the mod isn't replacing them, they probably answered the prod and are lurking as part of a strategy. These lurkers are most likely scum or power roles.

Regarding Hand Banana, he could be scum, or he could just be a noob. I can't find a way to defend him, but I don't want to take part in his lynch either. I am undecided about him.

[Khelvaster]

earlier i said there was 60% chance that at least one of you or Khelvaster are scum.
now i think it's <10% that khel is scum and you are at the 90+ % mark.
thus, vote: falcone

This post doesn't strike me right. There is no way to even come close to truly assigning percentages that people are scum...Did you know 83% of statistics are made up?

[Khelvaster]

Hand Banana: I think many people believe that even if you turn out to be town, you are the least helpful townie we have, so it won't be that big of a loss.

[Khelvaster]

Can you at least try and defend yourself when people say things? Repeating yourself is better than saying "I already said this."

^^^^ I forgot to put that in my last post.

[Khelvaster]

Oh...I didn't know that. Thanks.

[Khelvaster]

What if the person you name is the real doc or cop...

[Khelvaster]

I almost want to lynch Hand Banana...I feel unsafe with him as our vig. He isn't scummy, but the way he's acting makes me feel really bad about his judgement to hit scum instead of townies at night. He apparently read through Tapioca mafia...in that game, the vig nailed a townie night 1 and a doc night 2. Despite this, we could just tell him not to kill anyone. That would weaken him down to a townie, but it would be better IMO than losing a townie.

Anyway, I am seeing something awkward about Panzer's posts. I don't know if it's just paranoia, so for now

IGMEOY

, Panzer. I'll need to reread posts to find something substantial.

[Khelvaster]

He kept himself safe from mafia until doc dies by claiming. The mafia won't hit him, since the question of whether he would die is left open. A doc, if he exists, will definitely offer him protection.

[Khelvaster]

Mod: Votecount please

[Khelvaster]

Vote: Nekka

No need to be so freaking hostile to the newbie. If we get two kills tonight, then hand banana is vig. If we get one kill, then hand banana is scum. It's that simple. I highly doubt the existance of a mafia roleblocker because of the small size of the game. Nekka is trying to quicklynch a claimed vig, and that is absolutely unacceptable.

[Khelvaster]

I forget the edit acronym, so yeah...adding to my last pos23t.

I mentioned Panzer in an earlier post--I'll look at him more on d2. Nekka's actions are much worse than Panzer's. There isn't much to go on d1, but I think attempting to lynch the vig is a terrible offense. I got lynched for doing that on d1 in Tapioca mafia, and I was scum.

I'll say preemptively to Nekka and his inevitable OMGUS argument: don't give me any crap about this being a WIFOM accusation. No sane townie would go out of their way to try and lynch a vig. Instead, the townie would want to wait until d2 to see what comes of the vig's claim. Zero tolerance is the only way to go for trying to lynch unchallenged, claimed pro-town power roles day 1.

[Khelvaster]

Vote: Tarhalindur

Tar is the only person I've seen who is continuously trying to take down a claimed, unchallenged vig. That is not good in my book.

[Khelvaster]

Tar is also using an argument for lynch that is definitely a scumtell. He is saying the claimed vig is an inexperienced forced vig, and therefore we should lynch him. Tar has lain low most of the game--he now reared his ugly head to try and get a quick lynch.

[Khelvaster]

My bad...I shouldn't post so late at night...

Unvote: tar

[Khelvaster]

They're onto me because I made a sloppy play by mixing up tar and panzer. I backed out of that as soon as someone pointed it out to me--apparently fixing mistakes is a scumtell now.

[Khelvaster]

I have a power role and I dropped a breadcrumb in a post. I am reluctant to go further--I don't want to die tonight. Props to anyone who can spot it.

[Khelvaster]

The crumb is in post 23 if you filter through only my posts. Notice that in my post 26 I confirm there is a crumb to be found in 23. If someone finds it, I will ask them to please not reveal my role, since that would make me the scum target of tonight (unless we have a doc.)

[Khelvaster]

EBWOP: I am not asking for the doc to claim. Someone will probably take that last sentence to mean that. I am just saying I am scum's number 1 target tonight, being a claimed power role.

[Khelvaster]

I was telling you guys to go out and find it because there are three scum and nine townies. The chance of a townie finding one is three times higher than that of a scum, assuming just one person finds it. If someone did find it and that person was a townie, he could say he found it, without giving away the specific role, and yet still verifying that I was ok. In the event I get to lynch -2, I will claim. I don't want a mafia picking me off when I am atlynch -1.

Also, I just read Panzer's latest accusation last page of HB being SK. He still seems to be trying to lynched a claimed vig.

Vote: Panzer

[Khelvaster]

Tar, what you are saying is indeed correct. I crumbed in my post 23 and confirmed in my post 26 (the one in which I inserted the number 23.)

[Khelvaster]

Hold it. I just realized that Khelvaster's second breadcrumb is in post 182 (his *27th* post in this game), not 181. Khel's 182 is an EPWOP, so I can't be sure, but I *think* I know what Khel's been subclaiming.

Khel

, are you lumping some of your posts together? Specifically, are you counting your 182 as part of your 181 (since it's an EPWOP) or not? I need to know.

I am not lumping them together. The only reason I mention post 181 is because it mentions my other post (26 in my filter view.) I had the number 23 in there, since my actual crumb is 23 in my filter view. I hid it pretty well, so I didn't want people thinking it was just coincidence that my crumb came out to what it is.

My entire claim is contained in number 23 of my filtered view. That is all I'll say. If you do find it, please post that you found it, but don't reveal anything else.

[Khelvaster]

By the way, his breadcrumb of his claimed role doesn't convince me at all.

I found Khelvaster's hint, but I'm not convinced by it. It came relatively late in the game, making it less reliable. Furthermore, it's obscure enough that he could very well have hidden similar clues to other power roles in other posts. Anyways, there's nothing that keeps scum from breadcrumbing a role they don't have to rely on when they're in trouble, especially when, like in this case, it's extremely unlikely someone stumbles upon it without being told where to look.

Also, again, why hasn't Khelvaster given any explanation for his actions instead of making his claim? Maybe because he has none...?

The reason I put that 23 in post 26 was so nobody would think what you are thinking now. Anyway, I haven't given much explanation for my actions because there wasn't much to explain. I was simply ignorant in formulating my accusations. I don't have much of a case beyond that.

[Khelvaster]

So, both panzer and I are at lynch -3.

[Khelvaster]

This is ridiculous,

vote; Khelvaster

until he tells us straight what he's claiming.

The puts me at lynch -2. Go to my post number 23 with the filter for me-only on, and look at the first letter of the last word of each sentence.

[Khelvaster]

I mean filter Khelv. Also, I think everyone knows who I am now. What I didn't want was to be brought to lynch -1 and then hammered by an opportune scum.

[Khelvaster]

Well done for blantently telling everyone that it's a cop claim... Due to his post records the first post isn't included because I think it's a /confirm post

Not everyone would have found it, making scum finding it less! And you just happened to tell everyone after I made a DISCREET chat about it to Khel while you told everyone...

ummmm No. He didn't reveal it to everyone. I did. He just simplified what I said (first letter of each last word of each sentence of post 23 when looking at my posts only.) If he were a scum, he could have waited to tell his buddies at night when looking for an NK. Now he just alerted the doctor as to who I was if, somehow, the doctor failed to see that small post of mine explaining how to find my crumb. If anything, this confirms tar as town, not scum.

[Khelvaster]

I love the funky counterclaim. Panzer, I did some subtle crumbing, you didn't do any. I learned to crumb because my first game, Tapioca mafia, I got lynched because I claimed cop and then it turned out the real cop had done a crumb. I learned from my first game, so I went ahead and crumb'd on this game. You, on the other hand, did none of that.

Panzer is today's lynch. My PM didn't hint at any sanity issues, and I doubt anyway whether there would be on nonsane and one sane cop in a 12-man game. Before we let Panzer hammer himself, I strongly suggest that we determine Hand Banana's NK, if anyone should be NK'd. It's time to start analyzing who Panzer has been interacting with.

[Khelvaster]

I suggest we both sit back and let everyone else post. If we keep talking without any 3rd party input, it would most likely turn into a really nasty fight, just as I am in another game I'm currently in.

[Khelvaster]

Well, that's enough opinions for me to feel confidant about posting my case against Panzer. This should be enough to convince you all that I am the real cop and Panzer's counterclaim is fake.

His strategy from the beginning of the game has been to go after HB, who presented himself as the easiest target through his newb claim. Despite this, Panzer has kept on hammering. Even after HB claimed vig, Panzer attacked him, automatically jumping to the conclusion that HB was actually an SK. He also has accused Falcone of things at times, but always the accusations returned to HB.

Here is a compliation of highly shady, disreputable, and outright scummy quotes from Panzer. Judge him for yourselves.

First off...more certain then Hand Banana is vig. On top of that if he is gonna go around having power roles claim and such I'd rather have the vig lynched, because that is a terrible strategy.

HANDBANANA was the one who suggested he name people. I said mass claim because I figured you'd get the sarcasm because I was going on about how terrible the idea was. I think the claim is bullshit, and uncounterclaimed or not, it doesn't matter. Not every town has a vig especially in Normal mini's. Did you miss the part where I said "I am 100% AGAINST this strategy." I also said if he wants to go around and out power roles. I'd rather have him lynched because Cop/Doc are far more important then vig. Winning with out a vig is easy; winning without a cop or doc is far harder.

Yes, so let's lynch the vig at every chance we get.

EDWOP: FoS: Tarhilindur for actually reading my post and then saying that I am confirmed scum.

And persecute people for their opinions, Mr McCarthy. Stop with the OMGUS

How are we supposed to be certain that you are actually a vig and not a mafia goon that is role fishing?

Better safe than sorry--trust roleclaims unless there are counterclaims.

Well why would a protown player claim -5 from lynch

It's his first game, and he still is unchallenged

I'm still not a fan of when he claimed, his thinking, his FoS me for being critical of his thinking, or his claim. If he wanted to come out and claim why did he wait so long. He seemed he was unsure and decided to gambit thinking his claim would be accepted and no one would give him questions, or he really did want to come out deceided to try to play it safe got flak and then said screw it i'll claim halfway through making it awkward. Either way I am getting very bad vibes from it, and am wishing he had a name to drop rather then that crap about no finding anyone suspicious enough to say he was gonna kill them. His little idea about saying I'll shoot them if they don't claim realy rubs me the wrong way. For now, I'm gonna risk being wrong about his role and Vote:HandBanana

Or you could wait until tomorrow to see if he proves himself vig tonight. Your inability to look at alternatives gives you away. You hardly ever will see pro-town players trying to lynch claimed vigs day 1.

Ebwop: I thought of somethings after I dared you. Anyway this is an example of what others were saying were bad about your strategy. You outting pro-town players because you are not familiar enough with Mafiascum or Internet Mafia and don't possess amazing scum hunting ability. I will not be claiming until we get close to a non-handbanana lynch or am being pressurized.

Absolutely meaningless to dare someone to NK you. There is no way you would want that unless you are a jester-style guy, and in a minigame I doubt there would be a jester. Major scumtell in this post IMO. And also notice he is still clamoring to get us to BW on HB.

Supported Nekka's view? I never supported anything. I have brought plenty to the table against you, none of which that you have addressed. If anything it is Nekka who is supporting my views. I think you are SK. And Khelvaster, two kills does not mean shit if he is an SK. And I know we shouldn't go SK hunting but when he falls into your lap it is hard to say oh let's have him kill some people first. No, kill him.

So, why are you assuming he's an SK when he claimed vig? That is something to think about after a few days, not something to assume immediately. Also, don't you dare say you didn't really think he was an SK.

Khelvaster pay attention. I'm the one attacking Banana, the SK.

Unvote, Vote:Khelvaster

I have a stack of reasons but between not paying attention and being a hypocrite I can stick my vote on him comfortably without having to put all my reasons out there yet.

Not mentioning reasons when you vote is not a very pro-town thing to do.

He is SK. Look at the way he is playing. He isn't listening to the town but claimed vig and that he was all for the town. Now he is selfish and on a powertrip, which is lynchable when it's a vig cause he becomes a protown Serial Killer. What was the motive behind claiming vig so quick? He took a shot and is uncounterclaimed which totally cleared him in several people eyes, regardless of what he has said. On top of this he wants to kill me who has been probably the most active at trying to catch scum, among other things. If he is a vig, he is a detriment and should be dealt with. If he is an SK, he is again a detriment and should be dealt with.

He wants to kill you because you are scum. You also voted for me, so why were you continuing to pursue the claimed vig? It just doesn't make sense, and neither does assuming he is SK in the first place. That just seems like a weakness you felt you could exploit in HB's claim. There is no substance behind your argument--it's just your personal opinion that he is SK.

Wait, If he is scum wouldn't that clear me too? I was the second on the wagon and the one who drew attention to him with the lurker hunting comment.

Blatant WIFOM

HandBanana, I'm sure because of how many games I have played and my experiance with these situations. When people act like this I become pretty sure they are scum because of the percentage of time a person that does this is scum and the motivation behind the action. What reason does he have to claim I'm a power role but I bread crumbed. Guess my role. The only reason is either we nod like stupid townies and say ok and no one counterclaims because there is nothing to counterclaim. Or we pick up on the so called breadcrumbing figure out his role, someone counterclaims and we lynch khelv and have 2 outted powerroles. On top of those two options even if he claimed full either you or him are gonna die because there is no possible fucking way we have 2 docs. So why play all the games? He is probably gonna get lynched for claiming terribly(btw the timing was bad as well) or NKed for being a pwer role. I seriously doubt he is a power role, and fake claiming a power role is scummy.

And then you go ahead and do just that. It's almost like you were baiting me to claim...

[Khelvaster]

I'll give some more stuff later. For now, I just want to bring two things up from my post 152.

I almost want to lynch Hand Banana...I feel unsafe with him as our vig. He isn't scummy, but the way he's acting makes me feel really bad about his judgement to hit scum instead of townies at night. He apparently read through Tapioca mafia...in that game, the vig nailed a townie night 1 and a doc night 2. Despite this, we could just tell him not to kill anyone. That would weaken him down to a townie, but it would be better IMO than losing a townie.

This was said in response to HB having said he felt confidant in his own scumhunting abilities. Notice how I conclude that it would be better for him not to kill at all than for us to lynch him. Of course, using him as another lynch is the best option. I never actually advocated lynching him. That's why I said almost.

Anyway, I am seeing something awkward about Panzer's posts. I don't know if it's just paranoia, so for now

IGMEOY

, Panzer. I'll need to reread posts to find something substantial.

Check out how I suspected Panzer on post 152...He's been acting scummy for a while, and as a veteran player I would expect him not to be a scummy townie.

[Khelvaster]

I'll give some more stuff later. For now, I just want to bring two things up from my post 152.

I almost want to lynch Hand Banana...I feel unsafe with him as our vig. He isn't scummy, but the way he's acting makes me feel really bad about his judgement to hit scum instead of townies at night. He apparently read through Tapioca mafia...in that game, the vig nailed a townie night 1 and a doc night 2. Despite this, we could just tell him not to kill anyone. That would weaken him down to a townie, but it would be better IMO than losing a townie.

This was said in response to HB having said he felt confidant in his own scumhunting abilities. Notice how I conclude that it would be better for him not to kill at all than for us to lynch him. Of course, using him as another lynch is the best option. I never actually advocated lynching him. That's why I said almost.

Anyway, I am seeing something awkward about Panzer's posts. I don't know if it's just paranoia, so for now

IGMEOY

, Panzer. I'll need to reread posts to find something substantial.

Check out how I suspected Panzer on post 152...He's been acting scummy for a while.

[Khelvaster]

I think it's obvious who I would vote for...anyway, here's something I want to mention now that we can bring up tomorrow/today after deciding on the lynch.

Also, if I manage to fail to make it through this day, this post should prove to be very helpful in nailing the town's second scum. I *DO NOT* advocate lynching Jenter today because that will put the doc in a very awkward WIFOM situation between me and Panzer tonight. If the doc were to choose Panzer over me (and panzer would make the similar WIFOM argument with our names reversed,) the town loses its cop. Again, I am voicing this now in the event that I die. I don't mean to distract you guys...try not to take much notice of this until the cop thing is resolved.

I have content I don't want to post until I know EVERYONE's thoughts.

I think we just found our second scum. There is no way he could hurt the town by posting his opinions now. [speculation]I believe the motivation behind this would be to see how he could make a post to distance himself best from Panzer without actually helping indict Panzer. If the town opinion were to be very strong against either me or Panzer, he would be able to issue a massive anti-Panzer post.

If I get lynched, Panzer would be sure to follow the next day as being scum. Because Jenter would have made a strong case against the scum on day 1, he would not be under as much suspicion as people who made a case for me. Similarly, if Panzer is under a lot of flak today, he would work to get Panzer lynched today and seem very pro-town for it. On the other hand, if people are 50/50, Jenter would work to get me lynched, thus using up today's lynch. He would be under suspicion, but no more than many others who suspected me. Townies who honestly believe that Panzer is the real cop would not be going out of their way to appear pro-town in case they are wrong, because they are pretty sure they are right. Jenter is playing this situation to his diplomatic advantage.[/speculation]

So there's my little tidbit about Jenter. If I am lynched, I believe you guys will now have your n1 NK and your d2 lynches all set up.

[Khelvaster]

I'll give some more stuff later. For now, I just want to bring two things up from my post 152.

I almost want to lynch Hand Banana...I feel unsafe with him as our vig. He isn't scummy, but the way he's acting makes me feel really bad about his judgement to hit scum instead of townies at night. He apparently read through Tapioca mafia...in that game, the vig nailed a townie night 1 and a doc night 2. Despite this, we could just tell him not to kill anyone. That would weaken him down to a townie, but it would be better IMO than losing a townie.

This was said in response to HB having said he felt confidant in his own scumhunting abilities. Notice how I conclude that it would be better for him not to kill at all than for us to lynch him. Of course, using him as another lynch is the best option. I never actually advocated lynching him. That's why I said almost.

Khelvaster, would the following statement...

"IMO, hand banana should allow himself to be used as a second lynch, or at least agree not to fire. If he refuses, I'd consider lynching him even though he is an uncounterclaimed vig, since I don't trust his scumhunting abilities and his Azwolging behavior could be disasterous for the town."

...be a reasonable paraphrase of what you were trying to say in Post 152?

That is exactly the point I was trying to convey, yes. I said it in a somewhat less diplomatic tone, because I believed HB to have already stated his desire to be independant.
---------------------------

Anyway, I am seeing something awkward about Panzer's posts. I don't know if it's just paranoia, so for now

IGMEOY

, Panzer. I'll need to reread posts to find something substantial.

Check out how I suspected Panzer on post 152...He's been acting scummy for a while.

I find it interesting how eager you are to point out that you've been looking at Panzerjager for some time, and how eager you are to (rightfully) point out that Panzer has been acting scummy for a while. After all, just because Panzer's actions have been scummy doesn't mean that your action's aren't...[/quote][/quote]

This means I have been acting in a fairly pro-town way, and I didn't jump on any bandwagons, unlike Panzer.

And on the subject of Jenter, I already said that I was posting that for the record, should I get lynched. I don't know how many of you guys had noticed it. I did not intend for this to be a topic of discussion atm.

[Khelvaster]

Don't direct the cop.

Very nice slip-up, Panzer. Any reason why a real cop wouldn't have said, "Don't direct me?"


Anyway, what with all these double-claiming masons floating around, I believe the only good thing to do is

Vote: Jenter

I already have suspicions on him...the counterclaimed mason claim confirms my suspicions.

[Khelvaster]

i have a new strategy.

we have 3 pairs of masons (maybe even 4, we'll see about that).

there is no doubt in my mind that every pair consists of one townie + one scum.

so there we have:

1st pair: nekka and alsleet
i'm not sure
50%-50%

2nd pair: rishi and jenter
i'm pretty sure
5%-95%

3rd pair: N9V and XXX
also, pretty sure NV is town
5% - 95%

and my plan is: we lynch jester, and i Night Kill NV's partner.
ok with that?

and panzer khelv situation will be resolved when we get theris investigations.
i think town wins easily in this game.

Whoa there...this implies that there are four scum. Is that possible in a minigame? I think you should seriously reconsider your theory that there are scum-town links in every case.

[Khelvaster]

there is.


and it's possible that there are 4 scum if there are vig, cop, doc?, masons etc..
and it's also possible that there are 3 scum and both you and panzer are cops, but with sanity issues.

I think that once we get a lynch, everything will be much easier. What we need to do now is first decide on a lynch, and then decide on who your kill should be.

[Khelvaster]

and this:

Vote Rishi MAJOR FoS Jemter

is the reason, i'm *possibly* going to kill elias (if i don't get enough defence).

n9 woudn't jsut randomly pick one and major fosed the other if he was scum nad knew about scum-townie pairs.

The bigger question is why he didn't go ahead and vote Jenter, seeing as Jenter has not contributed to the town, and he has made a few majorly scummy, yet low-sized posts (the one I mentioned previously being the latest.)

If I were you, I would go straight to the heart of things and kill n9v, assuming Jenter is scum. If Jenter were lynched as scum and you still didn't trust that I was cop, you should probably go ahead and NK n9v. Jenter is clearly scum in my book, as is Panzer. N9V is probably scum, but I find him scummier than his supposed mason partner. Go for Panzer if you trust yourself to find the right NK choice. If not, I'd support your going for N9V. I would like to remind you how Panzer was incredibly un-town in supporting the theory that you must be SK, without even considering that we should keep you alive for at least 1 or 2 nights to test that theory. That is the most incredibly anti-town action I have ever seen in all the mafia games I have played.

@Everyone: With a 4-scum setup highly likely (cops with sanity issues seem highly unlikely,) this game could not be balanced if HB were an SK. 4 scum/1 SK/1 cop/3 nonconfirmed mason pairs/1 doc (hopefully there's a doc...otherwise I'm fucked, along with the rest of the town) is inbalanced. The only town power roles in this case would be the doc and the cop. Against 4 scum and an SK, the town would stand no chance, especially with the wierd mason pairings popping up.

That is why it is extremely reasonable to believe HB is a vig instead of an SK.

[Khelvaster]

Before all these quote chains get out of hand, I'm going to prune some stuff from excessive quotes by seperating them out in my post, if you don't mind. The format is starting to get on my nerves when I look at my post and see five QUOTE=XXXXXX before any content. It also is harder to remember who posted what. Anyway,

I almost want to lynch Hand Banana...I feel unsafe with him as our vig. He isn't scummy, but the way he's acting makes me feel really bad about his judgement to hit scum instead of townies at night. He apparently read through Tapioca mafia...in that game, the vig nailed a townie night 1 and a doc night 2. Despite this, we could just tell him not to kill anyone. That would weaken him down to a townie, but it would be better IMO than losing a townie.

Khelvaster, would the following statement...

"IMO, hand banana should allow himself to be used as a second lynch, or at least agree not to fire. If he refuses, I'd consider lynching him even though he is an uncounterclaimed vig, since I don't trust his scumhunting abilities and his Azwolging behavior could be disasterous for the town."

...be a reasonable paraphrase of what you were trying to say in Post 152?

That is exactly the point I was trying to convey, yes. I said it in a somewhat less diplomatic tone, because I believed HB to have already stated his desire to be independant.

I find it rather interesting that you say that's "exactly the point you were trying to convey". See, when I originally wrote that paraphrase I wasn't actually trying to paraphrase your post 152.

That doesn't really matter. I said the point

I was trying to convey

. I didn't admit to having conveyed that point well. Also, one of the pivotal points in your arguments against me has been that I advocated HB's lynch. I never at any time did so. I said that I "almost" felt like lynching him. That means I don't, not that I do. What is so unclear about that?

Now, let's take a look at your posts 212 and 213:

Vote: Tarhalindur

Tar is the only person I've seen who is continuously trying to take down a claimed, unchallenged vig. That is not good in my book.

Tar is also using an argument for lynch that is definitely a scumtell. He is saying the claimed vig is an inexperienced forced vig, and therefore we should lynch him. Tar has lain low most of the game--he now reared his ugly head to try and get a quick lynch.

Setting aside the obvious problems with this post (I wasn't even arguing for a lynch, let alone a quick lynch - considering a lynch, yes, but not actually arguing for it), I find this post, if not a direct contradiction of Khelvaster's post 152, then at least very hypocritical in light of his 152, seeing as Khelvaster's attacking me for using the

exact same train of thought

that he followed in his own 152.

First of all, I already said that I had confused you and Panzer. It was a mistake in my memory. Townies can do that just as much as scum can.

Second, I said I *almost* wanted to lynch HB because he was so out of control. I did, however, recant

in the same post

by saying that the town would be better off with HB not vigging anyone than us lynching him or his vigging without our deciding who his vig should be. You seem to have either misread or misinterpreted my text. Go back and read post 152 and you will see very clearly that I don't advocate lynching HB in any way. That fact also answers your next argument, so I will skip to the end of your post.

I don't agree with you that you've been acting in a pro-town way. Indeed, given the contradictions I'm seeing in your posts and the breadcrumb hunt you led us on, I think that you're probably scum, and Panzer is probably the real cop.

1. I claimed that I had acted in a pro-town way (implying at least once,) not that I had always acted in a pro-town way. Some people tend not to contribute anything at all to games--I contributed a good deal of stuff. Looking back, I see that the breadcrumb hunt was a bad idea for wasting time.

2. Regarding the breadcrumb hunt, I justified why I did that. Here is the relevant quote.

I was telling you guys to go out and find it because there are three scum and nine townies. The chance of a townie finding one is three times higher than that of a scum, assuming just one person finds it. If someone did find it and that person was a townie, he could say he found it, without giving away the specific role, and yet still verifying that I was ok.

I was trying to give the scum a minor headache at night if it happened that a townie found my crumb but not a scum. More specifically, if the doc knew I was good from a townie confirmation and protected me, the scum would be agonizing over whether I was doc or cop, and could quite possibly waste their NK on me.


There, Tar. Have I adequately defended myself?

[Khelvaster]

kill n9v?
no, i'm planning to kill elias.

i have no reason to believe you more than i do panzer.

`
Yeah, but why the hell would you kill elias? Look at the scenarios.

1. He and n9v are both town. You just killed a town, and maybe the scum/no-scum pair theory holds up.

2. He is town and n9v is scum. See #1.

3. He is scum and n9v is town. Very unlikely--elias/roland are much less scummy than some other people in this game.

4. Both he and n9v are scum. Would mean either 5 scum (incredibly unlikely) or a town-town and scum-town mason pair. Also very unlikely, because why would n9v make that extremely risky mason claim in the first place if it would just bring 2 more scum into the spotlight.

n9v is not only scummier, but his being scum would mean a jackpot, since he has so much to analyse. You can get others' opinion on this--elias is definately not the NK for today.

[Khelvaster]

Jenter and rishi were masons???

AlSleet is, in fact, an innocent mason. My PM specified that he was a mason, so there are no sanity issues.

[Khelvaster]

EBWOP: On second thought, I suppose it could have also said he was guilty and a mason...I'll go under the assumption that I am sane at this point.

[Khelvaster]

EBWOP Again: I take full responsibility for convincing HB to vig Jenter. If you guys think that this would be enough to justify lynching me today, then so be it. I am probably doing the town a disservice by being alive.

[Khelvaster]

3.

FoS: Khelvaster

. How do you know hand banana killed Jenter?

By the way, what was your result on AlSleet? "Innocent", "Mason", "Innocent Mason", or something else?

My result on AlSleet was innocent mason.

I believe hand banana killed Jenter because

1. Hand banana needed guidance, and I specifically gave him guidance, as well as presenting a pretty good case against Jenter. The day was then ended prematurely.

2. There was a theory floating around that there were scum-mason pairs. It would have been fairly easy for the mafia to set up a D2 jenter lynch if Rishi, part of the jenter-rishi pair, were dead, leaving Jenter, a highly scummy person and the other half of the pair.

Your bringing up that question made me think about who advanced the pairings in the first place, so for now I will

FoS: n9v

[Khelvaster]

who advanced the pairings in the first place

i guess that was me.

damn my memory...n9v was the one who brought up the rishi/major FoS jenter, then you brought up the pairings.

Un FoS: n9v

FoS: Falcone

Why wouldn't the mafia kill the doc?

[Khelvaster]

Damn...I really am going crazy.

Un: FoS Falcone

Do you think someone could get a list of everyone and their claims? That would make everything so much easier.

[Khelvaster]

The mafia is playing WIFOM regarding Tar's claim, but the fact that he claimed d1 makes me think he is scum. Did he need to claim d1?

[Khelvaster]

I agree with the logic that tar used, even if it is possible that he is scum...

Vote: Elias the thief

A 4-mafia setup in a 12-man game with so many unconfirmed masons and a doc, cop, and vig is unbalanced in the mafia's favor. It can't be 2-2, since otherwise there would have been three night kills. Thus, we must have 3 scum.

I am assuming that my conclusion is valid, so here is my proposal on the vig, assuming an Elias lynch.

If Elias is not scum, Panzer is the definite NK for being a false cop.

If Elias is scum, that would leave Falcone/Tar and Me/Panzer as the two possible scum. This ought to be a townie win.

Tell me if this suggestion is wrong, people, but I think that vigging Tar or Falcone is the best option here if Elias is innocent. If we get the doc, we can lynch the other guy tomorrow, and HB can vig me or Panzer at night. The next day, lynch the other guy, if you end up vigging me. That is the worst case scenario, and it will mean 3 scum lynched in 3 days. I'll investigate Panzer tonight just to double check that he isn't a cop.

[Khelvaster]

Don't listen to panzer. Read my post, and vig tar or falcone, whichever you think is the scummier. Either way, we will either get a scum tonight or get a scum tomorrow.

Also, if Elias is not scum, kill Panzer.

[Khelvaster]

EBWOP: You don't know who the doc will protect--you just know that it isn't going to be falcone or tar. I suggest tar, but if you think falcone is worse go ahead and try him. Contrary to what tar said, we aren't guaranteed to start losing power roles. There is a 50% we lose power roles. I will go ahead and investigate acfan tonight--that's what cops are for. Vigs are for doing things that are pretty much confirmed beneficial for the town. A 50% chance to trade doc for a scum and a 50% chance to confirm a doc and kill a scum is a win-win situation.

[Khelvaster]

first of all, i think you and panzer need to make deal and choose one player to investigate. both of you.

one reason is to determine something from your behavior, other reason is that i know not to vig that guy, it would be a waste of investigation.

And then the mafia ends up killing the guy. No thanks.

Anyway, let's assume Elias is guilty. His innocence would give an obvious NK choice of Panzer.

So, assuming Elias is guilty,

1. you NK tar, and he is the doc. The scum NK someone else. We have 6 people left, 2 of whom are scum.

2. The next day, we lynch Falcone. There are 5 people left, 1 of whom is scum.*

3. That night, you vig me or Panzer (hopefully panzer will appear scummier than I do by that point.) Assuming you vig me, there are 4 people left, and you know which one is scum.

4. We lynch Panzer. This is game over, town wins. Of course, if you are a serial killer, you would end up winning too, provided you still live. Either way, it is in your best interest to folloiw this course of action...

*The doctor should protect you, so the mafia will have to kill him that night, leaving you to get an NK the following night against one of the claimed cops.

And to the rebuttals:
There isn't a 2-2 mafia setup because otherwise there would be three NKs, with a vig and 2 mafias. It would be in both mafia's best interests to NK night 1.

A 4-man mafia and a vig fundamentally unbalances the game. Two straight days of mislynches and bad vig kills mean that the town loses. If there are 4 scum and Elias is town, we are pretty much screwed regardless of what HB does. That is why I believe 3 mafia is more likely.

[Khelvaster]

Let's give the mafia our sincerest thanks for getting rid of the SK. That said, for some reason I didn't get any investigation results tonight.

[Khelvaster]

The mod ended up just forgetting to give me results. Falcone is indeed our doc, so I would assume Tarhandilur is scum.

Vote: Tarhandilur

[Khelvaster]

Okay, Khelvaster is trying to get me lynched by claiming that a) Falcone is innocent and b) because Falcone is innocent, I must be scum.

And Tarhalindur goes into defensive scum mode, starting with a nice, juicy helping of misattribution.

I am trying to get him lynched because

0. I am assuming one doc in this game--when was the last mini game you saw with 2 docs?
1. He claimed doc, and Falcone did too.
2. Falcone is doc
3. Because Falcone is doc, Tarhalindur isn't doc
4. Tarhalindur claimed doc d1 without being under that much pressure. He wasn't nightkilled night 1, and came up with a lame excuse that 'scum must have wanted to go after masons instead of doc'

That's awfully shoddy reasoning - in fact, given the sheer number of masons in the game and Khelvaster's play here I think we may be dealing with 2 doctors and no cop, making Khelvaster a scum who got away with a fakeclaim due to luck/skill.

It's shoddy reasoning the way he describes it, not the way I actually presented it. He misrepresented my argument, then attacked that misrepresentation. That is a signature of a scum's last-ditch effort to save himself. He then presents more shoddy reasoning:
According to Tar

The fact that there are 6 unconfirmed masons in this game and the fact that I report Falcone as doc and AlSleet as innocent mason mean that there is a good chance there are no cops and 2 docs in this game.

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

The other possibility, of course, is that Falcone is a mafia godfather.

Yes, because everybody knows godfathers give investigation results of 'doctor,' as opposed to 'townie'.

I'm not sure of which possibility to believe, but I do know that I am almost certainly NOT the play for today, as lynching me almost certainly leads to a scum win.

Lynching someone besides Tar leads to a scum win.

What do the rest of you make of this?

[Khelvaster]

I advocate waiting for ac. I am just making sure that once ac's replacement does come in, Tar hasn't managed to switch the lynch target to someone else.

[Khelvaster]

I will investigate Jenter tomorrow. If nobody else has any objections, I suggest we get our lynch and move to night.

[Khelvaster]

Mod: Why didn't I get any investigation results?

[Khelvaster]

@Panzer: We didn't know if there were any mafia-masons. I purposefully will ignore your and Tar's statements because they are WIFOMable. I will post again when I get investigation results.

[Khelvaster]

Hmmm...I just found a PM with investigation results. I was roleblocked.

Jenter claimed Roleblocker, so

Vote: Jenter

[Khelvaster]

EBWOP: In case this isn't clear, there is probably a roleblocking scum. That is why I vote Jenter.

[Khelvaster]

I told you--I got roleblocked. Who I investigated shouldn't matter to you. As soon as n9v comes on, he will vote you.

[Khelvaster]

Unvote

Just realized that Jenter could be one shot vig

[Khelvaster]

unvote

n9v is godfather mason and jenter is 1-shot vig, or n9v is innocent mason and jenter is roleblocker mafia

[Khelvaster]

My good lord, this is the most powered town ever... if all the claims are true...

I claim Roleblocker.

Hit at Elias N2 and Jenter N1. Will post more tomorrow, have like 10mins access now.

Jenter. Please explain this. You can't be an NK survivor and a roleblocker.

Mod: Could you please prod n9v

[Khelvaster]

Whoa there, Jenter. I just realized, you screwed up, badly. If you really were a survivor with NK capabilities, you would have a guaranteed win by voting me, since you know I am a townie and n9v would know I was a townie. n9v would win as scum, and you would win with him as a survivor.

Unless you can give me a logical explanation as to why you didn't vote me as a survivor, I will vote you and let n9v hammer.

[Khelvaster]

I just synthesized all the available information, so here are the results:

1. Guardian is a mafia mason (or godfather mafia mason.) Since Falcon is described as "doctor," instead of "innocent doctor," I take it that because most masons are specified as innocent, there would also be guilty masons. In the doctor's case, there is no guilty doctor, so his alignment is unspecified. I am guessing the godfatherness was why I got no results last night.

2. Jenter is a mafia. He came out claiming roleblocker, and I believe I was roleblocked last night. If Jenter were a survivor, he would have placed a vote today. Jenter said he was a roleblocker before. However, if that were the case, he should have come out as survivor, voted me, RB'd n9v/guardian tonight, and NK'd him. Thus, I come to the conclusion that he is most likely an ordinary goon.

3. I am a cop. I outed two scum. There is no way we had 4 scum on one team in a 12-man game. It is 2v2. I could not have known the identity of 2 other scum if I were scum.


Now, I come to my proposal. How about a nice, three-way tie? The way things are right now, I could vote myself and push myself through as a deadline lynch, and let you two shoot each other at night, leaving no victory. A 3-way tie is more dignified and less prone to error (if jenter or n9v have NK immunity.)

Here is my ultimatum to Jenter: Vote 3-way tie or I will vote you and lynch you. Either you tie or you are lynched--that simple.

Vote: 3/way tie

[Khelvaster]

EBWODP:

Vote: 3-way tie

[Khelvaster]

I am changing my conclusions. Jenter is a wierd SK-nurse-deputy abomination, Guardian is a roleblocker scum.

@Jenter: Here's the deal: Guardian knows he is more experienced than I am. He thinks he can squeeze a win out of this by dancing around me. His post doesn't address much relevant stuff. He is playing on the fact that you are a newbie as well. He obviously wants me to be lynched.
This is because he expects a win with his NK, roleblocking you while he kills you. There is no reason he wants to be in a shootout with you and get everyone killed instead of having a 3-way tie.

I know what you are, you know what you are. I'm going to go ahead and dissect Guardian's post for your benefit, in case you somehow think he is town and you will win tonight.

@Guardian:

Khevlaster, you didn't repeat your claim for me. .

And Guardian starts off with complete, utter crap. Look at the post right above his.

3. I am a cop.

Also, this is all bullshit, since I am not a mafia member. Neither is Jenter, imo. I am more and more inclined to believe that Khel is the last member of the mafia, and Jenter is a second SK OR a survivior.

If you are town and Jenter is survivor, how does that make two night kills? Jenter must be a backup-SK or something (only activates the night after real SK dies.) You are obviously a roleblocker, because I didn't get any results on you.

Jenter, Khel's threats are

completely empty threats

. I

will not

vote to lynch you at this point. The only player I will consider voting to lynch right now is Khel, since from the above post he is definitely scum. Two scum groups is... bullshit, frankly.

Yeah, you are right. Two scum groups is bullshit. I wasn't thinking clearly last night, having just travelled from Germany to Indiana and thus not having slept for 22 hours. However, I fail to see how I am "definitely scum" when I am 2-for-2 on my investigations and there is nobody challenging me for cop.

Jenter, if you convince me you are a survivior, I will hammer Khel if you vote him. If not, I will vote nothing but no-lynch today, unless I become convinced that Khel is town, which after that post is highly, highly doubtable.

Vote for a freaking 3-way tie, Guardian. You are obviously a roleblocker mafia from my lack of investigatory results on you, so you will roleblock Jenter, shoot him, then shoot me tomorrow night. I will not let this pass as anything but a tie.

Jenter, Khel is most likely lying scum who made up his investigation results (easy for scum to do because they know everyone's alignment).

Yes Jenter, we all know how one scum will claim cop, the other scum will counterclaim cop, and they both know that there isn't a cop in the game. Listen: if 2 scum both claim cop without knowing whether there isn't a cop in the setup, they will be fucked if the real cop comes out and claims.

Khel first, and then Jenter, I want you to claim your FULL and TRUE roles. If EITHER of you doesn't claim a killing role, I will be all but convinced that you are lying. AND WILL VOTE YOU, allowing the other player to hammer and forcing YOU to lose.

Er...you are one of the killing roles, and Jenter is the other. Jenter will lose if he gets me lynched today, since you will roleblock him. I am an ordinary cop.

Jenter: You need to read this

-------------------

Guardian, I have one question for you.

Jenter believed that I was cop, judging from his July 10th post,

Khelvaster claims to be cop and i think he's right, but if n9v is town he has to be scum.

This implies that if I investigate you and come up with nothing, you must be scum because of a scum powerrole.
Since Jenter fully believed I was cop, if I were really scum, why wouldn't I have just gone ahead and said I got a townie claim off of you?

Try and find an answer to this question in a way that would make it beneficial for you to want to lynch me today if you were town.
As far as I am concerned, there is no answer for that if you were town. The only possible way you could answer that is if you were a roleblocker scum. Am I wrong?

[Khelvaster]

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST!!!!

WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT ME BEING A CONFIRMED COP?

I could have won for scum if I were scum and got falcone lynched d2 instead of Tar. Get that through your thick head.

[Khelvaster]

Jenter, you didn't vote in proper format. There is still time :p

[Khelvaster]

Jenter: You need to read this

-------------------

Guardian, I have one question for you.

Jenter believed that I was cop, judging from his July 10th post,

Khelvaster claims to be cop and i think he's right, but if n9v is town he has to be scum.

Since Jenter fully believed I was cop, if I were really scum, why wouldn't I have just gone ahead and said I got a townie or guilty claim off of you?

[Khelvaster]

EBWODP: Answer this straight, guardian.

[Khelvaster]

Guardian...you are the biggest moron I have ever seen.

[Khelvaster]

Well, this limited stuff wasn't right either...shouldn't people know if they are limited?

[Khelvaster]

This is definitely normal. Except for the superscum, all these roles were traditional. The unproven masons really didn't help the town at all FYI. They were, if anything else, more confusing.

[Khelvaster]

I can't believe we lost this game.

I think the reason for it is basically three things:

1) the set-up, which was weird and probably better suited for a theme game (alignment change, triggered abilities, unreliable results for cop and doc ...).

More importantly, this was a setup that encouraged mass claiming: once one mason claimed, it was foreseeable they all would, and that the town would go on to mass claim.

This is wrong. The masons were unconfirmed. This implied that one mason was scum. If masons had been confirmed, I would have voted Jenter straight away in the endgame instead of pushing for a 3-way tie. I wouldn't have even considered investigating a mason n1. Unconfirmed masons did nothing for this setup--they were like townies that could talk at night. The fact that the first 5 were town made me almost sure the 6th was scum.

2) mnowax's replacement policy: I wouldn't have let Jenter come back in the game with another role, and it was unfortunate to replace ~N9V~ who announced to be on vacation. I don't think ~N9V~ would have made the same choice in the endgame.

Jenter should have felt free to come in again, since he was coming from town to scum. He gained no additional information by being town. It just meant he could post more, because he didn't have to reread the game.

3) most important reason: the town's afwul play, and I take part of the blame myself.

We had practically lost the game already after believing the SK and killing of 4 masons. Then we got the lucky double crosskill, and we still couldn't win.

Yeah, but the SK could very well have been right. He didn't know either. I thought there was a mafia mason, and the 5 other masons were just to confuse me.

We shouldn't have ended day 2 without ac1983fan having claimed. It was obvious at that point either he was scum or one of the masons was scum, and if he had claimed vanilla at that point, he would have been lynched.

He could have claimed roleblocker, like his replacement eventually did. Also, what you are saying is vacuous. There were only unconfirmed masons and ac left, plus me, the confirmed cop, you, the confirmed doc, and tar, the confirmed scum.

And Guardian, I agree with you that the info from which you needed to make a decision was contradictory, but in those situations one must go with his reads on people and not with outguessing the mod.

Then why didn't guardian vote for a 3-way tie? There was no way he could have thought he would survive if both Jenter and I were able to NK. His decision was stupid beyond belief.

There was no way Khelvaster was not a cop, because then he must have been scum with Panzerjager, which doens't make an ounce of sense. And Jenter admitted to being not a member of the town (survivor) and to lying about his role! I can't understand why you believed him over a proven cop.

Guardian's stupidity lost the game for the town. Guardian is the new Battle Mage.