NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #2175 (ISO) » Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:37 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 2164, Aneninen wrote:Hmmm... and has that claim changed your reads on Pere?



did you read what he claimed when? (follow the link?)
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Post Post #2176 (ISO) » Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:45 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 646, Garmr wrote:
In post 562, Boonskiies wrote:Don't push me to claim, please.



In post 572, Boonskiies wrote:I'm almost positive it's multiball. My role basically implies it.

Kinda annoyed that someone would passively role claim day 1 with only one vote on them. If it is multiball all you had to do was wait one day and you could of keeped it hidden from scum. Unless your just saying that to get some town cred but that will sort itself out in time.

UNVOTE: boon

VOTE: Aneninen


@Garmr
this is your original vote of Aneninen.

Could you clarify just what you saw before that that this vote was based on.

There is some old discussion, and i could trawl the thread but I dont want to be putting words in your mouth.

There is wagon on Aneninen, I am on record as saying on
principle
I'd prefer not to lynch Thor or PereV today.
I am claiming that if
you have a good case on Aneninen (esp based on things early in the thread
aka
: back when you voted.)
I will vote it too...

do you?

Spoiler: clarity
As you know (or should) because I said so
In post 2113, AxleGreaser wrote:[...]However the one of the
biggest problems I have with voting your wagon on Aneninen
, is that I cant see for myself the scummy stuff he did nearer the beginning of the game.
You saw plenty of it!

Please show me the scummy stuff Aneninen did earlier. [...]

I am developing a strong suspicion TSO wont be posting his reason anytime soon.
earlier I said:
In post 1432, AxleGreaser wrote:I will discuss Aneninen with you, if I achieve clarity on TSOs claimed reasons.

I have failed to reach that endpoint, instead I have demostrable proof he wont do as he says he will.

So now, I would like to know what you found scummy about those earlier posts.
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Post Post #2177 (ISO) » Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:50 pm

Post by TierShift »

In post 2155, T S O wrote:
In post 2136, TierShift wrote:
In post 2132, T S O wrote:Why would scum-GM randomly decide to push Thor?

well, why the heck would she not? Why would her scumreading thor make her have a 'death wish'?


Because there was no support for Thor being scum at the time and, more importantly, Thor is probably one of the worst players to pick a fight with as scum onsite due to his proficiency in winning arguments, propensity to re-evaluate reads and even tunnel if need be. GM's not stupid.

Well, if all she keeps saying is 'tone', Thor can't really argue with her, can he?
In post 2171, Scripten wrote:
In post 2170, beastcharizard wrote:So, who is town and who is scum?


I'm town. Thor's probably town. TSO and Davesaz are probably town. AxleGreaser... might be town? It's a tough one.

You forgot me!
Why davesaz?
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Post Post #2178 (ISO) » Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:30 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

@GARMR
Addendum: reading that back it seems unfair (me asking you do the work). But when i looked it wasnt hard anyway.
Your interactions with him seem centred around

If that is the case what about that made him scum for you?
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Post Post #2179 (ISO) » Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:34 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

centred around
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Post Post #2180 (ISO) » Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:53 pm

Post by Slandaar »

In post 2158, goodmorning wrote:Townies that look scummy are townies that Scum can make eat a lynch. I thought that would be obvious.

It doesn't really matter, I mean the point of my post was the questions not that I wasn't entirely sure what you meant but obviously you focused on the excess not the actual point.

In post 2164, Aneninen wrote:The thing you pointed out in your next post made me think about Goodmorning. I'll check that later.

It made you think? about what? how you should have been reading GM's posts?
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Post Post #2181 (ISO) » Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:54 pm

Post by Slandaar »

In post 2171, Scripten wrote:Everyone else is hinging on various levels of null for me.

Am I?
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Post Post #2182 (ISO) » Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:57 pm

Post by Slandaar »

Also I don't have time to get quotes but basically GM said to someone Tier I think to reread Thors posts when Tier said he thought Thor was town. This is off because all GM has is 'tone' so what was Tier supposed to be rereading for?

I may try explain this better later. With quotes it's clearer.
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Post Post #2183 (ISO) » Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:56 pm

Post by TierShift »

I get what you mean slender
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Post Post #2184 (ISO) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:29 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 2123, Slandaar wrote:
In post 2119, The Fonz wrote:#1819: I see no reason for town to make this post. Boonskiies was claiming non-specific PR. EVEN IF as town, you thought some nuance of it made clear he was cop, what would be the benefit?

I was explaining to Boon that as the cop you shouldn't be so obvious to ensure that other power roles, who are unsure of whether Boon was playing his role well and thought they may do similar, would know not to play like Boon.

:]

Fonzie do you actually think I would post that without an actual reason even as scum? (Hint: that wasn't the real reason)

Some of the other stuff you wrote is also equally terrible.


There seems no obvious reason to do it as scum. But it's actively harmful as town. Risk/reward is different. It seems to me unlikely that anyone was likely to play like Boon anyway. People don't tend to try to imitate VIs.

In post 2124, Slandaar wrote:I wasn't going to reply to this but eh...
In post 2119, The Fonz wrote:1789 isn't entirely fair to goodmorning. What GM's saying, I think, is that a push on a claimed PR is unlikely to work and likely to make you look scummy.

What is the difference between scum trying to lynch a claimed PR and trying to lynch another unclaimed townie?

Neither is more or less scummy. The difference between them is the reasoning for trying to lynch - this is what defines if the person is scummy or not. Therefore if scum think they can lynch a claimed PR with the reasoning they have, then why wouldn't they?


The fuck? The difference between scum trying to lynch a claimed PR and an unclaimed nonaligned is that

A) Town is very unlikely to lynch the claimed PR, regardless of your reasoning
B) You are likely to draw some fire for attacking the claimed PR

Therefore scum, who tend to be risk-averse and can just kill the PR overnight anyway, have no reason to push the claimed PR that town doesn't have, and has reason not to that town lacks.

In post 2127, goodmorning wrote:
In post 2119, The Fonz wrote:coming in and pushing a case hard =/= tunnelling.

No, but coming in and pushing a case hard whilst not doing anything else is.


No. What else are you supposed to do other than find scum and push them?

In post 2134, davesaz wrote:I'm quite surprised that nobody scumread me after I "caught" Egg having "scum knowledge".

This brings up two inconsistencies. Some players are seen as scummy if they point out other players who seem to have inside information, but other players who make the same observation are not scummy. And there seems to be a double standard on the posting of apparent inside information as well.

UNVOTE:


Possible double standard. More likely, game density by this point is causing people's eyes to glaze over and just miss it. I know I keep trying to read the TSO/Anen/Axle back and forth, but just get a headache very quickly and stop being able to follow it. I think it's pretty likely your posts are simplygetting missed.


In post 2141, Egg wrote:

The Fonz wrote:I would kinda like to know why scum would come up with the super-derpy 'not talking to someone' reaction test, though, then openly admit it wasn't in keeping with her meta. That seems convoluted and unlikely to benefit any scum end.


Seems like keeping busy, scum hunting, and doing stuff, but isn't. And if I did something outside of my town meta as either alignment, I'd sure as fuck admit it. People research that shit.


Causation runs the other way: Scum tend to try to behave in ways they can justify as 'How I play as town,' and if called out on apparent meta-inconsistencies, try to claim the play wasn't inconsistent in the first place, imho. Town seem less likely to care about being meta-inconsistent if they think something could be useful.
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Post Post #2185 (ISO) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:38 am

Post by The Fonz »

Oh, also, 'Literally doing nothing' doesn't seem to constitute 'seems like being busy, but not' to me.
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Post Post #2186 (ISO) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:01 am

Post by goodmorning »

In post 2182, Slandaar wrote:Also I don't have time to get quotes but basically GM said to someone Tier I think to reread Thors posts when Tier said he thought Thor was town. This is off because all GM has is 'tone' so what was Tier supposed to be rereading for?

I may try explain this better later. With quotes it's clearer.

For overall effect, obviously.

In post 2184, The Fonz wrote:
In post 2127, goodmorning wrote:
In post 2119, The Fonz wrote:coming in and pushing a case hard =/= tunnelling.

No, but coming in and pushing a case hard whilst not doing anything else is.

No. What else are you supposed to do other than find scum and push them?

Finding more than one is usually A+. Having opinions on multiple things is usually helpful as well.
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Post Post #2187 (ISO) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:07 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 2184, The Fonz wrote:I know I keep trying to read the TSO/Anen/Axle back and forth, but just get a headache very quickly and stop being able to follow it.


perhaps as its(Aneninen) now one of the three leading wagons, its important enough? (recently tied for first)
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Post Post #2188 (ISO) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:54 am

Post by Slandaar »

Looked at my meta yet Fonzie Fonzie?

:]

---

I have opinions on multiple things GM. Perhaps instead of suggesting I don't just because I haven't posted everything I think (as is always the case with me) you should have asked about whatever subject it is you think is so important which I should definitely have posted about. That sounds a little too much like something a townie would do though eh?

What are these 'things' I should have posted about which I have not?
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Post Post #2189 (ISO) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:18 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:4. Boonskiies- Probably scum



can you explain what came before here that made you think "probably scum"
to be clear I interpet that statement at that time to mean More likely than every body labelled less strongly, (its an early D1 read),
but I am interested in where it came from?
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Post Post #2190 (ISO) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:43 am

Post by Egg »

Goodmorning wrote:You've never PR hunted?


I haven't. I play the same when I am VT as I do when I am a power role, so I don't even know what to look for without fishing in thread which I also avoid doing.

Aneninen to Thor wrote:Hmmm... and has that claim changed your reads on Pere?


Why should it?

Aneninen wrote:I've posted about that but this part is obsolete now, because Hephaestus replaced out.


No. It's still relevant. He was still in this game with a role, alignment, and everything. You made an argument that I disagreed with. I was trying to see where you were coming from. The fact that he replaced out doesn't change that.

Beast wrote:So, who is town and who is scum?


Town: Me, Thor, Axle
Scum: Pere, Tier, Goodmorning

And of course there is everyone else, but there's three of each for you. Hopefully you do a little more here than in the last large I played with you.

The Fonz wrote:Causation runs the other way: Scum tend to try to behave in ways they can justify as 'How I play as town,' and if called out on apparent meta-inconsistencies, try to claim the play wasn't inconsistent in the first place, imho. Town seem less likely to care about being meta-inconsistent if they think something could be useful.

The Fonz wrote:Oh, also, 'Literally doing nothing' doesn't seem to constitute 'seems like being busy, but not' to me.


Meh. Depends on the player. I personally couldn't give a shit about my own meta most of the time because I feel like my behavior is more strongly affected by the playerlist than my alignment. And Goodmorning's so called reaction test DOES look busy if we see it the same way she is presenting it to us.

So. I'm sad that Pere hasn't been here since I last posted. I feel like I'm not pushing my top scum read enough, but in a large games, my posts tend to be more reactive than proactive. Anyone wanna talk about how Pere is scum?
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Post Post #2191 (ISO) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:55 am

Post by Slandaar »

Fonz serious question.

If scum claims a PR on D1 can
you
lynch them based on what you are saying?

Let's say they claim Miller what then? when do you lynch them? It can be anything else other than cop really (cop is only role which you can just see if they die N1) Choose a Back-up role etc even a Doctor claim is quite unverifiable especially if scum have an RB.
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Post Post #2192 (ISO) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:31 am

Post by Scripten »

In post 2177, TierShift wrote:
You forgot me!
Why davesaz?


Oh, right, I did! Tiershift is maybe town. He's a little quiet, but this feels way different from his scum game. (Granted, that was a micro and this is a large. So eh.)

In post 2181, Slandaar wrote:
In post 2171, Scripten wrote:Everyone else is hinging on various levels of null for me.

Am I?


Yup.
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Post Post #2193 (ISO) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:47 am

Post by TierShift »

Hey egg, I see I'm a scumread of yours! Why?
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Post Post #2194 (ISO) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:15 am

Post by davesaz »

In post 2150, Garmr wrote:
To be fair I scum read people sheeping thor on the pere wagon If that's what you mean by thors wagon and thors town reading everyone of them and I felt he could only explain one adequately.


Are you saying that sheeping is sufficient to scum read someone? Or that it's scummy to town read someone who is sheeping you?
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Post Post #2195 (ISO) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:29 am

Post by davesaz »

In post 2144, goodmorning wrote:
In post 2139, Slandaar wrote:
In post 2127, goodmorning wrote:Why would I come into a fresh discussion with an agenda?

Is this a serious question?

Lets talk hypothetically; If you are scum do you think you would have an agenda while entering a fresh discussion?

I begin to see the problem here. One of us is wrong about my alignment. Hmmmmm.

The only agenda I have, as either alignment, is to figure things out.
I don't come into questioning intending anything else.

This does not quite ring true. Sure, maybe at a high level you're figuring things out, but that's not the only factor in deciding whether to enter a discussion and how. Scum can and do butt in when a townie is after their buddy, for example. Disrupting the questioning process is a way to help a buddy without openly defending them. So information gathering as the explanation for entering a discussion is really shallow.
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Post Post #2196 (ISO) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:40 am

Post by Muffin »

Can you guys stop theory crafting.

My opinion is that Aneninen is scum for reason s aforementioned.

It is a distraction to be arguing about theory, this game is long enough
One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.
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Post Post #2197 (ISO) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:19 am

Post by Aneninen »

In post 2167, Muffin wrote:So in other words Aneninen, you can't demonstrate why Slandaar is scum, and can only throw Appeals to Emotion?
Why are you voting Slandaar? You can't even come up with reasons why he is scum.

I have posted a case against him. Even if you haven't liked it.
What is your case against me again? Having disliked my case against Slandaar? Why do I keep thinking that you have merely followed the path of the easiest resistance?


In post 2175, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 2164, Aneninen wrote:Hmmm... and has that claim changed your reads on Pere?

did you read what he claimed when? (follow the link?)

Yes. Though I asked Thor, what's your opinion about that claim?


In post 2180, Slandaar wrote:
In post 2164, Aneninen wrote:The thing you pointed out in your next post made me think about Goodmorning. I'll check that later.

It made you think? about what? how you should have been reading GM's posts?

You can say that too. I say: I might have skimmed over certain things in GM's posts.

In post 2190, Egg wrote:
Aneninen wrote:I've posted about that but this part is obsolete now, because Hephaestus replaced out.

No. It's still relevant. He was still in this game with a role, alignment, and everything. You made an argument that I disagreed with. I was trying to see where you were coming from. The fact that he replaced out doesn't change that.

That's true, but his replacement's gameplay may change my opinion.
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Post Post #2198 (ISO) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:40 am

Post by davesaz »

In post 2196, Muffin wrote:Can you guys stop theory crafting.

My opinion is that Aneninen is scum for reason s aforementioned.

It is a distraction to be arguing about theory, this game is long enough

If you're talking to me, it is not theory. If you're not responding to me, then who? Quoting is good.
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Post Post #2199 (ISO) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:18 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 2022, TierShift wrote:Pere, what do you think about ?


It seems like a continuation of the Slandaar read in . The reasons seem to be the opposite of why I'm a scumread (), but maybe he just hates people catching up or calling them catch-up posts.

Either way, seems upset about the Goodmorning vote and the reason behind it.

Never mentions Aeronaut previously except once, so doubt they are scum together.
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