NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #2050 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:16 am

Post by T S O »

And as well as that it's not like I'm even fucking townreading Peregrine anyway.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #2051 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:17 am

Post by T S O »

Axle, does it ever get boring when someone
keeps
ignoring you and you keep posting stuff to them anyway?

Because to me it looks like a handy way to look busy.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #2052 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:45 am

Post by Egg »

Ok, probably won't get far today, but here it goes.

On Page 52, TSO and The Fonz are arguing over what Aneninen's nervousness means. I think it's personality and has nothing to do with alignment. He seems worried about how people view him as a player/person. I think that's what you guys are seeing and possibly overanalyzing.

I have to admit that while I was town reading The Fonz, 1306 is blatant OMGUS on Nero.

Goodmorning's "reaction test" was weird. I don't understand why you thought Toby would react to you not interacting with her on Day 1 of a large game.

Flubber wrote:Does anybody have a non-meta or non-PoE town read on Thor right now? I would love to hear about it.


Town for coming into the neighborhood saying there is definitely scum in it and then seeming to be legitimately scumhunting me before Day 1 started. However, I second guessed this when I saw why he had me as town because it didn't look like a genuine read. I guess that could be backed by his Pere read, which I agree with, assuming he believes two scum in a 3-man neighborhood is pointless and needed an excuse to town read me when it's actually process of elimination? I mean, that's kind of a stretch, but...if not that, I have no idea.

Flubber wrote:That reminds me, how come nobody took issue with Thor's reads list that was all town\lurksack?


I took lurksack to mean null. My issue with Pere's reads list was all of the scum. Like, how do you have 12 scum reads in a 21 player game?

I'm reading Flubber's entrance as town.

In post 1362, Garmr wrote:
In post 1334, Egg wrote:
Gamr wrote: tbh I don't understand why scum would reveal they have a role that could confirm multiscum because that would make them more likely to be targeted in the night phase


At first, I wanted to call this town thinking because it shows that you are trying to understand where boon is coming from and admitting you may be wrong. Buuuuuut. Why are you thinking/talking about NKs?

It's obvious Because I'm pissed off that someone with a role would reveal themselves day one.What would you prefer crossfire(if we have multiscum),a vanilla dying or a fucking power role dying? It's the vanilla towns role to hunt hard catch scum and try to get night killed for their townie roles to provide information. If boon is town then his just fucked town over.


So... You voted him thinking he was a power role? How does that help town any more than him claiming?

Pere wrote:
In post 1365, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 1335, Egg wrote:As I said in the post you quoted while making this post, I had no issues with you sheeping at Izar. I was trying to understand your position. It seems that you claim to have mostly voted for lolreactions and failed to show us what reactions you got (unless I missed that part, which is entirely possible and if so please point me in that direction). And as I also said, there's possible scum motivation in adding momentum after a case is made if Script is town and you are scum. As for my specific read on Script, I've started to lean more town now that he's started posting some pretty good content. I liked Izar's case at the time it was made, but those points aren't really relevant anymore.

Reactions to my Scripten vote







Spoiler: Scripten's posts at the time of my vote
In post 28, Scripten wrote:I have had a lot of beer tonight.

VOTE: ote Thor

He's a thor.

In post 39, Scripten wrote:
In post 36, Thor665 wrote:I now support Csaro's lynch also.

Scripten's drunk post is also a policy lynch.

People should vote one or the other, my RVS stage is over.


Policy lynchers should be policy lynched.

Thor vote is serious.

In post 301, Scripten wrote:Also here. Really busy and currently in the max number of games I want to take on at a time.

Nobody is really pinging hard either way.

TSO vs. Csareo is a lot of reading and not a whole lot of enlightenment.Trying to figure out who's pushing it.

In post 362, Scripten wrote:Have a few minor reads.

TSO seems mildly town. Toby and Tiershift feel town. (Tier feels quite town, in fact.)

Nero Cain looks a little suspicious. Cho feels like scum to me.

UNVOTE: Thor665
VOTE: Cho

In post 364, Scripten wrote:Because the day is still young. In spirit.


So, in summary, a vote for Scripten caused a massive reaction of Scripten=town while the sum of the spoiler-ed posts indicate null at best.



Which of those reactions do you read as town? Which do you read as scum? Why do I have to drag this out of you if it was your own reaction test?

Pere wrote:You are applying a lot more certainty to day1 reads than I am.
I doubt ALL my 8 person wagon is scum, but go look at the reasons given. I already did, and unfortunately for me Thor's vote parking momentum will lead to me lynch.

Unfortunately for you both, since I'm town, and scum being in our hood means it's one of you (or both when multi-ball happens-right, Thor? :wink: ), so hopefully the vig will take care of that tonight.

If you want to talk about specific players, probably best to ask. My initial reads are fairly outdated at this point.


I'm not applying certainty. That's not the point. The point is that you are leaving room for more than half of the game to be scum. And yeah, it's probably outdated. I get that. Reads change. But this is where you stood at that point of the game and it was off to me. If you were to post a new reads list that was completely opposite of this one, it wouldn't make this one go away.

Tier wrote:I've played with townscripten; he clearly explained his reads and had an opinion on everything. Not seeing that here.

VOTE: scripten


Was that a large game?

Goodmorning wrote:Did I say, anywhere, that he wasn't right about the voting situation? No. The post was originally going to be something snippy about how I didn't like any of the counterwagons either. I decided sarcastic would be more fun, especially since I'd mentioned that I found those folks Town a bit earlier.
Bolded: I'm not sure I like this assertion. It doesn't read "making sure we all get shit done in a timely manner". It reads "making sure we compromise... onto my top wagon, of course."


It just feels like you've had a lot of "Thor is scum because <Insert Weak Jab>" where weak jab turns out to be a joke. What are your serious and strong reasons for scum reading Thor?

TSO wrote:Using a hard scumread as the basis for my reads is actually quite a solid tactic, Anen, and it's really not indicative one way or another.


Ehhhhhhh. I'd agree if not for the use of the word "tactic". That implies that it's intentional and being done in a strategic way which makes more sense for scum. I'd call it more of a bias for town.

Script wrote:
It was the way in which he responded in general. Notice how Thor and others (including myself) are saying that it doesn't matter if the setup is MB or, his push was wrong due to being based on non-alignment-related opinion.


Wait. Wasn't the argument that Thor was scum for having knowledge of a setup with two scum teams? Now he's scum for the same argument even if there turns out to be only one team? Guy just can't win with you people, can he?

In post 1415, Scripten wrote:
In post 1411, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1409, Scripten wrote:
That said, why would you expect a hood to change a player's direction, as you say?


discussing things in hood could from my external view, generate jumps and gaps in the flow/trajectory of a player.
any information exchange channel that i am unaware of might do that.

So might sitting down and thinking, whoops why did I xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <<< bunch of graphic imagery elided as pointless and tasteless.
So if TSO is the kind of player that can sit down and think oops all by himself, then I suppose no need for another channel.


I can help out here. I don't know about the other hoods (though it would make sense for them all to operate the same way), but ours does not have daytalk, so TSO either had another avenue of communication for what you suggest or came to his conclusion independently. I'm pretty sure it's the latter. Do you disagree?


Axle is town. As scum, he'd know there is no daytalk.

Gamr wrote:I was mixing up pere with thor I am town reading pere as well. Sorry my bad.

Gamr wrote:I'm currently intoxicated so sorry about spelling and grammar and shit just smashed a bottle jagermeister and starting on the wild turkey and honey lol.


Gamr is NOT scum with either Pere or Thor. No way he'd mix up a scum buddy and the person they are fighting with. And drunk posts tend to be pretty telling with stuff like this.

Through Page 58. Gonna hit submit and take a shit. Might or might not come right back to this.
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Post Post #2053 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:51 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 2016, Aneninen wrote:Whenever I post a case, everybody loses their minds.
Do you really think "losing our minds" is a fair characterization of what's going on here? Your case was bad and it was called such.

For your information, about Slandaar. (Supplementary for .)
– the highlighted bits were scummy because, (1) "let's lynch someone else is way not enough for launching a case; and there are other possibilities besides Thor and PereV; (2) that part about "Goodmorning is scum because she doesn't make mistakes as scum" must have been a joke, but a real life experience from me is that players tend to make joke out of real things just to attenuate their "annoying" thoughts; I still can't see why a player who has never played with Csareo before is scummier because of their interaction with him than another one who has played with Csareo. (And this argument against TSO from me was called weak... yet another double standard)
Okay let's try this a different way. Here is what you need to do to get your "case" taken seriously and to have your posts not be skimmed/ignored. Use the following format, borrowed from someone else earlier in thread:
  • Snippet of relevant post,
    using the quote tag function

  • explanation of why it demonstrates scum motivation

So far you have failed to show scum motivation, including in the above quote.


– I was FoS-ed in another game for using the phrase "derail a wagon" and I was town

Pro tip: FOSses don't mean anything. They're stupid and you should ignore them like everyone else.
Secondly: This supports my point that word choice is rarely if ever going to be indicative of alignment.

– and the most important part, which, I must admit, an intuition-read, was his nervous reaction to my scumlist. Some calls things like that "reaction tests". But, I've already learnt it: if someone else performs a reaction test, noone bats an eye. If I do the same...
Oh, it was a reaction test? Okay, what would a town reaction have been, and why does "nervousness" indicate scum? Be specific, clear, and explicit. Reaction tests are highly overrated, and you need to demonstrate why the reaction you got was scum, and what you would expect to be a town reaction.

Muffin was "not confident enough" about his reads
What town motivation is there for you to put words into my mouth, twisting my post into something I didn't say? What I said was that I am not confident Pere will flip scum.

Remember what I said before?
My posts are misinterpreted, misrepresented or ignored, and used by many for playing the "Regardless Of Card" at me and many are talking AT me instead of talking TO me. It still works in this way: some players ARE interested in focusing on me and make out arguments out of anything to call me scum. I have a couple of ideas, but if you check the thread, there WILL be one name which crystallizes itself out VERY clearly. Who's ALWAYS there whenever there IS a possibility of a wagon against me. (No, I won't tell it. If I told, there would be more votes without cases for me.)
Feel free to lynch me, but and as soon as I flip town start examining all the votes for me and all the players who were eagerly voting for me without providing any reasons. I strongly think THAT would be more helpful to the town than my posts.
Honestly this whole tirade reads to me like inexperienced scum who's angry and doesn't understand how/why they got "caught", initially overestimating the amount of suspicion they were under (what was it, a measly 4 friggin votes?) and then over-reacting as a result.
One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.
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Post Post #2054 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:53 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 2049, T S O wrote:Because the way the argument inevitably goes is I make my case on Axle, you say I'm wasting my time, we back-and-forth, I lose the argument and end up sheepishly voting Peregrine.

I, as I've said before, am both too highly-strung and too busy to do that.

That is meaningless - the only issue is whether or not you think I'm right about the wagon states and the needs of town.
If I am, you should join me.
If not, you should tell me to sod off.
The only way there is a middle point is if you have no idea - and if you have no idea you shouldn't get pissy about it.
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Post Post #2055 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:55 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 2052, Egg wrote:Goodmorning's "reaction test" was weird. I don't understand why you thought Toby would react to you not interacting with her on Day 1 of a large game.
Yes I agree. Town
or
scum, I rarely if ever notice one player not interacting with me, especially if they'd done so earlier. It's not like she was being conspicuous about interacting with everyone else, either.
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Post Post #2056 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:15 am

Post by Garmr »

In post 2052, Egg wrote:

In post 1362, Garmr wrote:
In post 1334, Egg wrote:
Gamr wrote: tbh I don't understand why scum would reveal they have a role that could confirm multiscum because that would make them more likely to be targeted in the night phase


At first, I wanted to call this town thinking because it shows that you are trying to understand where boon is coming from and admitting you may be wrong. Buuuuuut. Why are you thinking/talking about NKs?

It's obvious Because I'm pissed off that someone with a role would reveal themselves day one.What would you prefer crossfire(if we have multiscum),a vanilla dying or a fucking power role dying? It's the vanilla towns role to hunt hard catch scum and try to get night killed for their townie roles to provide information. If boon is town then his just fucked town over.


So... You voted him thinking he was a power role? How does that help town any more than him claiming?


Gamr wrote:I was mixing up pere with thor I am town reading pere as well. Sorry my bad.

Gamr wrote:I'm currently intoxicated so sorry about spelling and grammar and shit just smashed a bottle jagermeister and starting on the wild turkey and honey lol.


Gamr is NOT scum with either Pere or Thor. No way he'd mix up a scum buddy and the person they are fighting with. And drunk posts tend to be pretty telling with stuff like this.

Through Page 58. Gonna hit submit and take a shit. Might or might not come right back to this.

Wow egg that's a terrible misrep boon didn't soft claim till after I voted him and I unvoted him after because i believed it are you even paying attention.

Also your right about one thing I'm not scum with either pere or thor since I'm not scum at all I'm town.
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Post Post #2057 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:39 am

Post by davesaz »

In post 2052, Egg wrote:
Axle is town. As scum, he'd know there is no daytalk.

If Axle were scum, he'd know if there is or is not daytalk. But you wrote this pretty definitely -- "he'd know
there is no daytalk
".
This makes it sound like
you
know there is no daytalk.

VOTE: Egg
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Post Post #2058 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:45 am

Post by Thor665 »

He said it in reference to the Neighborhood QTs - not a Scum QT.
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Post Post #2059 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:04 am

Post by Scripten »

Spoiler: Egg
In post 2052, Egg wrote:
Tier wrote:I've played with townscripten; he clearly explained his reads and had an opinion on everything. Not seeing that here.

VOTE: scripten


Was that a large game?


It was a micro, and Tier was scum.

In post 2052, Egg wrote:
Script wrote:
It was the way in which he responded in general. Notice how Thor and others (including myself) are saying that it doesn't matter if the setup is MB or, his push was wrong due to being based on non-alignment-related opinion.


Wait. Wasn't the argument that Thor was scum for having knowledge of a setup with two scum teams? Now he's scum for the same argument even if there turns out to be only one team? Guy just can't win with you people, can he?


What? I think you misunderstand my post. I said it doesn't matter whether Thor or PereV is right about the setup. What matters is how they each interacted with one another. PereV's reaction to Thor pressing him about his statement that Thor would be scum if the game was MB felt pretty damn scummy, and the game setup has no bearing on it.

I'm trying to get a better read on PereV, but I'm not sure how well that's going to work.

In post 2052, Egg wrote:
Axle is town. As scum, he'd know there is no daytalk.


Could also have been pretending to not know for town cred. I don't think that question was alignment-indicative.


Spoiler: PereV
In post 2021, PeregrineV wrote:
I expect town-Fonz to read the game and make an independent decision (see Slandaar). His jump on the largest wagon (even if me) based on post 300 or so was surprising.

Beyond that, look for logic fails for scum-Fonz (Cold War Mafia)


Hm. I was townreading Fonz, but okay. This could be useful after a flip.

In post 2021, PeregrineV wrote:
I see where Axel is coming from, I had similar issues with TSO for many games (see earlier post).
His playstyle is meticulous, which I find refreshing or skippable, depending on my mood.

As long as he stays true to himself but can adjust his scumhunting if he figures out he is wrong (in general and for this game).


This sounds like a town read. I suppose that makes sense. Do you think his pushes (discounting TSO) are worthwhile?


In post 2038, The Fonz wrote:@Scripten: I asked you to expand on why you think the way in which Flubbernugget retracted his reads, specifically, was townish. Please do so.


Ah crap. I meant to do this ages ago. Apologies. Going to make another post for that. Give me a few minutes.

Davesaz:
I don't think that's a scumslip on Egg's part.
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Post Post #2060 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:09 am

Post by Scripten »

Spoiler: Flubber's Posts
In post 1336, Flubbernugget wrote:That reminds me, how come nobody took issue with Thor's reads list that was all town\lurksack?

In post 1344, Flubbernugget wrote:
In post 1342, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1336, Flubbernugget wrote:That reminds me, how come nobody took issue with Thor's reads list that was all town\lurksack?

Issue with it for what reason? Calling too many people town? Too many lurksacks? Or too many of each?


Are all of your scum reads PoE?

In post 1353, Flubbernugget wrote:It kinda implies you're not scumhunting. I mean, you have that huge back and forth with PV over a superficial case, and thats the only scum read I can remember you having. If you have better scum reads, why are they less prominent than some scum slip discredit?

In post 1520, Flubbernugget wrote:
In post 1508, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 1503, T S O wrote:Pere, who do you want dead today?


At this point, it will probably be me.

My vote on Scripten triggered too much for a simple vote. I'd want to lynch him.

Thor arguing like this I can see from town Thor, but the topic/reason/trigger was also insignificant. I'd lynch him. (But part of me wants to wait until multiball gets confirmed :P )

Egg for vote-parking. Unless someone can point out town-Egg doing this, classic scumtell.

Lurkers.


I'm ISO'ing your wagon right now and Muffin is probably vote parking worse than Egg yet was never mentioned.

In post 1541, Flubbernugget wrote:@thor: your case is sound and valid as far as I can tell but it's beating the rotting remains of a dead horse and cousing apathy. If you don't see any other scumtells in him (or opportunities to dig for additional scumtells) what about this particular instance do you think could in be causing something worth going on about for this long?

@axle: okay I misread your post. But I don't understand the hesitation to list other scum reads.

In post 1550, Flubbernugget wrote:
In post 1548, Thor665 wrote:Well, a couple of those are actually quite explicit and not vague at all.
And I don't see the point you're trying to make regardless.

6. If he made a mistake he had plenty of time to at least discuss why he believed in that mistake. Instead he got dodgy - was that also a mistake on his part?

5. Which do you think is the more likely response from a town Pere who thinks he's right? How about from a scum Pere that doesn't?


If he is more focused on winning the argument what makes you think he would admit a mistake?

And either way I see you two arguing about it regardless of alignment, although the argument is more beneficial as scum.


Fonz:
These posts feel organic and natural. He doesn't keep pushing the exact same point over and over, but had some amount of ebb and flow to his discussion with Thor. Feels like a townish Flubbernugget to me.
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Post Post #2061 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:13 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 2060, Scripten wrote:These posts feel organic and natural. He doesn't keep pushing the exact same point over and over, but had some amount of ebb and flow to his discussion with Thor. Feels like a townish Flubbernugget to me.

I'm pretty neutral on that He changed his stances because I was battering the arguments. You'll note he walked away from me with no particular commentary about how he felt about it. That doesn't particularly vibe like townish ebb and flow. I'm not saying it's scummish either, but I don't get the town vibe.
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Post Post #2062 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:28 am

Post by Scripten »

In post 2061, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2060, Scripten wrote:These posts feel organic and natural. He doesn't keep pushing the exact same point over and over, but had some amount of ebb and flow to his discussion with Thor. Feels like a townish Flubbernugget to me.

I'm pretty neutral on that He changed his stances because I was battering the arguments. You'll note he walked away from me with no particular commentary about how he felt about it. That doesn't particularly vibe like townish ebb and flow. I'm not saying it's scummish either, but I don't get the town vibe.


I disagree. I don't really want to go ISO him again, but I remember seeing that he was scumhunting other people and generally interacting in a way that suggested that he hadn't just popped up to look like he was scumhunting you and left once he was out-maneuvered. In the last game I played with him, I was scum and drilled him really hard until he flipped town. Flubber being overwhelmed as town is perfectly understandable and this feels like how he would react under pressure in a large. It's not a strong town lean, but it's a bit more than null.
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Post Post #2063 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:28 am

Post by Egg »

The Fonz to Pere wrote:That's not an answer to that accusation at all. Thor's behaviour hasn't changed over the last fifteen or so pages. If it's scummy now, it was scummy on page 25 or whatever.

Also, why have you never once in this argument considered what to me was the obvious reading of Thor's post - that he was sincerely mistaken about how common multiball is?


^One of the best posts in this thread up to that point. I agree with every word of it. (I didn't quote the whole quote pyramid. If anyone wants the whole context, it is the very first post on Page 59)

Aneninen wrote:Hephaestus is a lurk-scum, in my opinion. He promises posts all the time but those posts never arrive.


Is there anything specific about him that makes you think he is either lying about being too busy or avoiding catching up because he is scum?

Gamr wrote:We need mac in this game then we can have egg mac muffin :p


LMAO.

Pere wrote:
goodmorning is probably best investigated.


I hate when people try to direct cops. If Pere is scum, I could see Goodmorning as an investigation immune buddy. As much as I hate this kind of thing, if Pere is town, I actually kind of agree with this in a weird way and it hurts to admit it. So much WIFOM around this kind of comment. And the WIFOM thing is an observation, not an accusation. Basically, I'm storing this comment in the back of my mind for after Pere flips. Hell, it's even possible Pere is scum, knows there are two teams (or is SK?), and legitimately suspects goodmorning. But then, why not just NK her? Like I said, a lot of WIFOM. Sorry for the IIoA here, but it stood out and I don't know what to make of it.

Pere wrote:Egg for vote-parking. Unless someone can point out town-Egg doing this, classic scumtell


No need to compromise when you are my top scum read and the leading wagon. And I'm less likely to change my vote when I'm not caught up. Buuuuuut:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go - Inuyasha mafia. Voteparked xofelf to a lesser extent than here on Day 1.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=57612 - Hope+1. Vote parked Thomas pretty much all of Day 1. He ended up being lynched.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=48144 - AAA Mafia. Voteparked Cho pretty much all Day 1. She was lynched.
^These are my last three completed games and I was town in all of them. So it's hard to call voteparking a scum tell for me. When I find a scum read early on Day 1 and don't feel I've been proven wrong, and a wagon builds, it's hard to get me off of it barring a deadline lynch. I feel like I probably do this as scum too, but here are my last three games, all town, and I did it there. Unfortunately, my target was town all three times, but *shrug*. I'm a better scum hunter at night as a power role than I am during the day in thread, so I don't completely suck. lol.

Flubber wrote:
I'm ISO'ing your wagon right now and Muffin is probably vote parking worse than Egg yet was never mentioned.


Nah. I've been voting Pere since before he posted. I'm actually curious where you are going with this though. I don't think I can see Muffin and Pere as buddies.
UPDATE: 1568 makes sense.

Goodmorning wrote:Almost never. I find I get lost in them.
Of all my games, I've played 5 Larges. This is only the second one I've started and the first one I've begun as a single player.
Graveyard Shift (replaced in fairly late because interesting mechanic)
NY 169 (replaced in because Cabd asked nicely)
Shadows and Lights (inned as hydra because Noctan needed a partner and I felt bad)
Lord of the Rings (replaced in about halfway through because I like the source and lots of people were dead)
Author Mafia (replaced in because big names and TS ELIOT WHAT)
This is my 6th Large in 2 years. Make of that what you will.


What made you join this one?

pere wrote:6. No mistake. I still believe that if there are 2 scumteams, Thor is likely scum (this was the initial thought- now that has gone up to 100% chance).


So you are either claiming a guilty on Day 1 of a normal game or using hyperbole. Why are you using hyperbole?

Pere wrote:
But Egg has pushed nothing else. And his initial vote was vague


I've poked and prodded at other people and found nothing but weak scum reads. And I know my initial vote was weak, especially seeing that there are other neighborhoods. Your later play just validated it.

Gamr wrote:You have the similar thoughts on the pere/thor subject as me, But I don't see tso as scum and you seem to feel similar about Annienen. So how about we start a new wagon. Maybe a muffin wagon since after Isoing him and seeing the way he act around pere while buddying up to thor is scummish to me or a nerocain,scriptian and davesaz wagons are pretty good to or if you have changed your mind about Annienen there's plenty of room there.


Apologies if you've done so and I missed it, but can you give reasons for wanting a wagon on each of those players? Wouldn't want you to just be throwing out names and seeing what happens and where you can get traction.

Thor wrote:I also do have other people I'd be willing to lynch.
However, as noted, my prime lynch option is the top wagon. I'm not sure why everyone keeps expecting me to compromise at this stage.
That's not how it works.


Yeah, I keep getting this too. Scum doesn't want Pere lynched.

Muffin, on page 65, you say you are caught up, yet I don't see very many words. Can you provide a few thoughts other than that your Pere read hasn't changed and you are changing your mind on Aneninen?

Axle wrote:I can easily suspect TSO's reasons for voting you without knowing or even having strong views of your alignment.
people are attemtping to claim I must prove you are town to believe TSO is scum, that is balderdash.


If you are scum and he is bussing, his reasons are likely to be crap.


Nah. TSO's attack on both Aneninen and you reads too real to be bussing. Like it's legitimately attacking the way you guys play, think, and type. Scum buddies, in my experience, don't get so personal when bussing. But there's another point to be made here. What exactly is your read on Aneninen?

Goodmorning wrote:Players who are Town: GrayFoxxx, Garmr, TSO, Tier
Players who are not Town: Thor, Fonz
Players who may be Town: Cho, dave, Flubbernugget, Pere, Scripten
Players who may not be Town: Aeronaut, Axle, Anen, Muffin, Nero
Players who may or may not be Town: Boonskiies, Egg, hephaestus, Izariael

If you'd like an explanation of one of these and I haven't already given it, you're welcome to ask


Why is Gray town? I can't remember a single post of his.
<-Asked by Dave and answered. Answer is fair. Forgot he replaced Csar.

Flubber wrote:I can't tell whether Axle should be getting scum points or farside22 points right now.


What do you mean by this?

In post 1637, T S O wrote:
In post 1615, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1612, Aneninen wrote:To tell the truth, I've had an intuition that he had been protecting me because of trying to get towncredits in case of my mislynch.

I am not protecting you.

Indeed what you claim doesn't make sense is me not protecting you by claiming you are town.

I have in the thread only claimed I find TSO reasons suspect.

if you actually got lynched or vigged and flipped town, I get no "credit" for guessing you were town, because as you just observed I never said you were town....

I will get towny credit if TSO flips scum.

please try and make your theories fit the facts.


Egg you should also explain to me how town could possibly post this.


It's actually a good point. If he isn't calling Aneninen town, how does he get towncred if Aneninen flips town? Also, he can think your case sucks without thinking Aneninen is town. I've seen bad cases made against scum before.

Flubber wrote:Egg basically took his reads list and was like "your whole reads list is omgus. wtf."


To be fair, only 66% (8/12) of his scum reads were voting him. My issue was just as much the number of scum reads as it was the fact that all eight players voting him were apparently scummy. But yeah, you get the general idea.

Thor wrote:
@Egg - it doesn't matter, and you continue to misunderstand me, and I don't care.


It does matter. It's the only thing you've done so far that concerns me about my town read on you. I want it clarified, otherwise it makes me second guess my read on you just a little bit.

Axle wrote:Aneninen was not exhibiting any slam dunk tells. Thor's post 401 is correct in that if he was on L-1 near deadline, and this wagon on him had got there.
The lynching Anenin vs No lynch is a no brainer. The list of people I would not do that too however is rather small


Interesting. Can you give us that list?

Aneninen wrote:I kept responding TSO for a while and I stopped it because I found out that he was tunnelling me regardless of my posts.


Perfect. Now I have the whole picture. Both sides are actually pretty fair.

Aneninen wrote:Hephaestus did something similar in a game before, it was abandoned but he was scum.


Do you have evidence of him NOT doing it as town in a large game?

Egg wrote:Even if we call this a joke, you are still making other weak jabs at Thor and that's not like you.

Goodmorning wrote:Is it really not like me?


I'm just going from memory, but I don't think so. I thought I remembered you giving good cases with strong points.

Goodmorning wrote:If I could describe it then there'd be no need for me to say I couldn't describe it.
I don't know why, just like I don't know why I was pinged by BnB in Shadows and Lights, but I was.


I found it interesting though because it looked like a town post from Thor. And the fact that you find it scummy, but can't say why, makes it yet another weak jab.

Pere wrote:I think there is an SK.


0_o

TSO wrote:why would Pere have any sure knowledge as to whether scum specifically have daytalk here

if you wanted to see the general trend, you could simply have done it yourself.

that's a shit question which serves no purpose.


It's actually a great question if Pere wasn't a neighbor...

Oh shit. Just saw that deadline is tomorrow. I'm already voting the lead wagon though, so it's on other people to sheep it or make a new one. Hopefully this is already happening. If not, let's go people.
UPDATE: Guess it's suspended again?

Me wrote:So you think that without you being here to guide us, we'd all make the mistake of assuming neighbors are the same thing as masons or...?

Nero wrote:yes :cool:


Pffffffffttttttt.

Nero wrote:
ummmm? guys walks into the game, is not caught up, votes the biggest bandwagon, and doesn't find anything else worth commenting on in 20 pages. I don't know why you think I should not be suspicious of that or why you aren't. So talk to me about the Fonz slot


Well, that specific point can go either way, so I consider it null. If I remember right, he said he didn't realize it was the biggest wagon. Either you believe him or you don't. But it's not like he made a major impact on it. He moved it from somewhere around L-5 to L-4 and we still haven't lynched Pere. Not a huge deal. I was townreading Toby and the only thing I didn't like about The Fonz so far was his OMGUS vote on you. Do you have a specific question about my view on the slot or does this answer it?

Axle regarding TSO wrote:@Thread. Does anyone at all have a reason they are not voting this guy now?


Pere is scummier. Although, he (TSO) keeps misusing the word "literally", so there's that.

Aneninen wrote:But, I realized something else too.
In a mini normal I'm able to follow more or less every player and every topic shows up in the thread – but here I'm unable to do so. Either because this is my first Large Normal or because of the amount of the players. I also noticed that "normally" there are 1–2 pages of new posts a day in a Mini but here, whenever I want to catch up I find 5 pages or something like that. (By "normally" I mean, when the Day is not close to Deadline, not stalled etc.)

@Everyone: does the difference I've written above exist between Mini and Large games?


Yes. I'm more ok with having null reads on Day 1 of a large than a mini. There's more going on and it's harder to follow. And some players get lost and fall behind to the point where you forget they are in the game until you see them post.

Dave wrote:Because only scum don't explain their reads.


I really wish this was true.

TSO wrote:yes I'll post it in my QT now


Ok, I'm fully aware this is sarcasm. But it kind of feels like trying to feign ignorance to the fact that this game doesn't have daytalk and uses PTs rather than QTs. Isn't TSO a neighbor? Someone other than TSO tell me if I'm crazy here.

Gut scum read on Slandaar.

TSO wrote:Also, many people have played with scum-me here and know my playstyle - Thor, for one, has and he's not scumreading me. Fairly sure gm has, he's not scumreading me. Cho has and, afaik, she wasn't scumreading me. Garmr probably has. PeregrineV has and he's not scumreading me either


Hi. Guys, my gut meta read on TSO is that he doesn't seem like his town self. Discuss.

Tier wrote:I feel very discouraged from reading because all the discussion before I left was nonsense and it probably is now. We nded a flip. Pere wouldn't be my first choice, but I can live with it


This is the kind of thing I'd expect Pere's scumbuddies to be saying right about now.

Aneninen, can you explain why you don't like Slandaar's Goodmorning push? That's probably the only thing I like about his posts so far.

Muffin wrote:Barring vig, why would a scum player get vigged? Is this gm slipping that she knows thor is town?

That phrase really pinged for me.

oh god oh god oh god oh god oh god oh god oh god oh god indecision


Nah. She said "if". The only thing she is implying is that she could be wrong about her read. I don't see a slip of any knowledge here, especially considering that Thor tends to be prone to NKs.

Muffin (2055), yeah we are definitely on the same page here. Everything you said is exactly what I'm thinking, especially with this being a large game. My only thing is this: Is there scum intent there or is it just weird?

Gamr wrote:Wow egg that's a terrible misrep boon didn't soft claim till after I voted him and I unvoted him after because i believed it are you even paying attention.


Didn't you vote him for the softclaim?

Dave wrote:If Axle were scum, he'd know if there is or is not daytalk. But you wrote this pretty definitely -- "he'd know there is no daytalk".
This makes it sound like you know there is no daytalk.

VOTE: Egg


I'm a neighbor and don't have daytalk. I am assuming scum chat works the same way. In probably about 300 games, I don't believe I've ever seen scum have daytalk and neighbors or masons not have it.

Tier wrote:I've played with townscripten; he clearly explained his reads and had an opinion on everything. Not seeing that here.

VOTE: scripten

Me wrote:Was that a large game?

Script wrote:It was a micro, and Tier was scum.

^LMAO

Script wrote:What? I think you misunderstand my post. I said it doesn't matter whether Thor or PereV is right about the setup. What matters is how they each interacted with one another. PereV's reaction to Thor pressing him about his statement that Thor would be scum if the game was MB felt pretty damn scummy, and the game setup has no bearing on it.

I'm trying to get a better read on PereV, but I'm not sure how well that's going to work


I may have to reread this when my brain isn't fried. I'm kind of confused on your stance here and that's probably more on my end than yours.

Script wrote:
Could also have been pretending to not know for town cred. I don't think that question was alignment-indicative


I don't feel like he's very capable of that. Seemed like a genuine townslip to me.

Holy shit, I made it. The end of the thread.
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Post Post #2064 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:30 am

Post by Egg »

Oh, and I debated a little on whether I should do this, but I see a lot of discussion on it and it's already out there and I kind of want to squash it.

I DOUBT VERY VERY SERIOUSLY THAT BOON IS A COP. I HAVE A REASON. I WILL NOT ELABORATE. I WILL NOT RESPOND TO ANYTHING ANYONE SAYS IN RESPONSE TO THIS.
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Post Post #2065 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:37 am

Post by Scripten »

In post 2064, Egg wrote:Oh, and I debated a little on whether I should do this, but I see a lot of discussion on it and it's already out there and I kind of want to squash it.

I DOUBT VERY VERY SERIOUSLY THAT BOON IS A COP. I HAVE A REASON. I WILL NOT ELABORATE. I WILL NOT RESPOND TO ANYTHING ANYONE SAYS IN RESPONSE TO THIS.


I'm willing to listen to this. Do you think a Boon fakeclaim is alignment indicative or some sort of townie gambit?
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Post Post #2066 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:40 am

Post by Egg »

I WILL NOT ELABORATE. I WILL NOT RESPOND TO ANYTHING ANYONE SAYS IN RESPONSE TO THIS.
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Post Post #2068 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:48 am

Post by Scripten »

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Post Post #2069 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:48 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 2047, goodmorning wrote:There's a reason that we call transparency of thought process pro-Town.



really do tell
/sarcasm not @you well maybe but not.
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Post Post #2070 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:49 am

Post by Scripten »

Aww... those don't work in there. WELL.

:neutral:

Fine, question extends to the rest of you lot, then. Boon fakeclaim more likely to be town- or scum-motivated?
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Post Post #2071 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:51 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 2051, T S O wrote:Axle, does it ever get boring when someone
keeps
ignoring you and you keep posting stuff to them anyway?

Because to me it looks like a handy way to look busy.



you mean like everytime I ignore you not putting up, being not transparent and not protown?
and you just go on doing it?
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Post Post #2072 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:55 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 2071, AxleGreaser wrote:posting stuff to them anyway?


also did you even check what fraction of my recent posts are
to you
, or did you just decide to make this shit up too?
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Post Post #2073 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:07 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 2058, Thor665 wrote:He said it in reference to the Neighborhood QTs - not a Scum QT.


also dont forget the possibility of Axle just fucking up.

Its foggy as hell, but when () I was (probably)'reminded' there was no day talk in neighbourhoods, I believe there was already at least implied info in the thread earlier there was no day Talk.
Id seen it and forgotten it. (I think PereV, mentioned whod posted when and
why
in his hood, and I think it was earlier)

perhaps that is a town tell that I was really trying to think about stuff.
Lack of the other knowledge not >so much< (but maybe if you really wanna believe it)
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Post Post #2074 (ISO) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:36 am

Post by T S O »

egg can you talk about your read on me

because you don't seem to really like anything I do at all and some of it is reaching. like the pt/qt thing.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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