NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #1850 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:36 am

Post by Flubbernugget »

Boonskies needs to play the damn game.
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Post Post #1851 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:36 am

Post by Garmr »

In post 1847, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1846, Garmr wrote:
In post 1845, AxleGreaser wrote:so far he is getting away with it, and youre town reading him for it? (as its got no percentage except you town reading him for it?)


You agree that boonskies is being boonskies right?


That phrase came up in this context
In post 420, Aneninen wrote:
Garrmrrmr wrote:Boonskies was the fact he needed to clarify that those were rvs votes.1 No one really asked him for it and it seems odd as town why you feel the need to say hey this is a rvs vote.


(1) Boonskiies was just being Boonskiies. I can tell you I've seen that. Even if you haven't come across with him, why is it a scumtell?


On that occasion, you replied
In post 423, Garmr wrote:1.I'm not the only one who thought that was scummy (thor did) and how is that even a defence boon skies is boon skies. Like i said why would town need to clarify themselves.


and its true that, feeling the need to over explain yourself at that stage of the game can be a scum tell.
however "Boonkies is Boonskies is a short hand way to tell you that with respect to how Boonskies plays that was not all that remarkable.

That is my view even if Boonskies has never felt the need to say that before!!!!
Why?
Context, at post , Csaero had been taking all sorts of things and treating them disproportionately seriously.
I can imagine even a town Boonksie thinking nope, "As my second vote had reason, I had better inb4 someone takes it wrong"

at the very least it is an actual argument by Aneninen, it may be wrong, but its not dismissable out of hand.

I am not in anyway keen to lynch Boonskie today.

What exactly are you asking me to agree to? You seem to be fishing for an open ended agreement, that I absolutely read Boonskie is Boonskie.
Indeed the D1 soft claim is I think a bit weird(not seen before)(new Boonskie) but I have no intention of talking about it today.


I didn't want a long answer in that way I wanted a yes or no but I will take this as a yes.

Because Tso is being Tso.
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Post Post #1852 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:47 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 1851, Garmr wrote:Because Tso is being Tso.



That i something that I have tried to grapple with.

Here for instance is someone else, who has experience with TSO (seemingly recent (see claim of grudge))
In post 293, Cho wrote:Believe me, T S O can fake annoying anger. It's what helps him win scumgames.


and they think TSO can be TSO too.
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Post Post #1853 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:54 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 1851, Garmr wrote:
Because Tso is being Tso.


Do you have specific game to refer me to that will make your point clear? (so that I can see it for myself)

I expect that to be way harder thing to do as TSO is more experienced player with larger palette of previous play styles as town or scum.

Also I do argue he is better lynch that PereV, or Thor, who I have said I dont want to lynch D1.

This for instance is self described on wiki "Bah. I played fucking shit here."
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=29163
and he does not seem to do the anti town stuff I am talking about there.
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Post Post #1854 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:13 am

Post by Slandaar »

In post 1836, goodmorning wrote:Today is Day 1. If you don't get why that makes a difference then perhaps you should try to figure it out.

So, if scum claims PR D1 they are immune to being lynched bar a cc for D1? What about D2? well I think they have not had long enough as scum can risk one night right? D3? so much suspicion on them that scum wouldn't kill...

Where is this magical line that you actually think PR claims can be lynched? What happens when they claim they are RB'ed or some such?

:]

I know you didn't mention scum claiming PR but it's all the same argument, if you don't think scum try to lynch town PR's then either you think that anyone who tries to lynch a town PR is town (clearly wrong) OR you think no-one tries to lynch them so by extension you cannot lynch scum claiming PR either (bar cc) because obviously you can get it wrong...

You actually think I am going to believe you think scum and by extension NO-ONE would try to lynch PR claims on D1? You are mistaken.
In post 1836, goodmorning wrote:
I'm sorry you replaced into a Scum slot, but sidetracking me with theory discussions is not helpful.

Yes, yes, 'you replaced into a scum slot'. Very original. I assume I will see a well written case by you when I am fully caught up?
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Post Post #1855 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:17 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 1839, davesaz wrote:Likewise I'm not willing to call Thor as definitely not town, because there isn't a lot of directly scummy behavior. I am significantly less confident in his towniness than early in the gamee. Like Axel, he is posting on multiple topics but doesn't seem to be actually pushing anyone but PereV. There is support for the PereV wagon which means it's not as risky for potential scum to maintain.

:facepalm:
Why do people keep forgetting that I *made* that wagon. If I wanted to, I could make another - I am apparently the only player here capable of such because I've been on v/la for a week and *nothing else is happening* during the period I've been quiet and busy.
Starting tomorrow I plan to take this wagon to L-1.
If someone wants a different wagon get your butt in gear and start playing the game.
Meanwhile, stop acting like Thor is playing anything safe by staying on the "big" wagon - because that literally makes no sense considering what has happened this game day.
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Post Post #1856 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:27 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 1851, Garmr wrote:Because Tso is being Tso.



also I am a little intrigued.

When Aneninen said that is just Bonnskies being Boonskies he was referring to a thing that happened.

You statement seems more open ended. (aka: Do you think the whole TSO filter is TSO being TSO?)

Is that an unequivocal town read by you on TSO as, TSO is being TSO?
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Post Post #1857 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:33 am

Post by Slandaar »

In post 583, Thor665 wrote:
Adding in the other SK ones changes it to a 6/13 ratio.

I don't think you should be adding the SK ones here Thorsie.

Even if we agree (we don't) the term multiball includes games with SK's in them it is very nitpicky and we know Peregrines reply before even reading it;
In post 597, PeregrineV wrote:Except Multiball means 2 scumteams

Amazing, right?
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Post Post #1858 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:39 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 1857, Slandaar wrote:
In post 583, Thor665 wrote:
Adding in the other SK ones changes it to a 6/13 ratio.

I don't think you should be adding the SK ones here Thorsie.

Even if we agree (we don't) the term multiball includes games with SK's in them it is very nitpicky and we know Peregrines reply before even reading it;
In post 597, PeregrineV wrote:Except Multiball means 2 scumteams

Amazing, right?

I think...
Like you I see all sorts of things in that argument that makes me regard a D1 lynch of either of them as very unsafe.

So do you see any reason not to vote TSO?

If not do you have anyone else you would like to start a wagon on?
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Post Post #1859 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:53 am

Post by Garmr »

In post 1853, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1851, Garmr wrote:
Because Tso is being Tso.


Do you have specific game to refer me to that will make your point clear? (so that I can see it for myself)

I expect that to be way harder thing to do as TSO is more experienced player with larger palette of previous play styles as town or scum.

Also I do argue he is better lynch that PereV, or Thor, who I have said I dont want to lynch D1.

This for instance is self described on wiki "Bah. I played fucking shit here."
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=29163
and he does not seem to do the anti town stuff I am talking about there.


Wait you ask me for examples as why tso is being tso but it's ok that annienen didn't provide an example how boon is self conscious as town and your fine with that? (even through i do think his town now.) That's kinda bs and hypo fucking critical. I'm going to show you a game where tso is acting similarly to what he is now except he used no hard cases at all, mini 1510 . He also got into one of his pushes on majiffy like he did with ane this game and it lasted till a majjify lynch if i remember correctly.

This game also shows my 2nd scum tick which i only had 4 times before this game
1.my first normal with banksy flareon
2.that game on grimgrove (tso counter pushed me on this one day 1 i so could of got him lynched but then again i fucked up end game.),
3.Regefan in mafia in space(ffery told me to shut up about regefan because she was in a foul mood and he was her number 1 town read I was right she was wrong :P instinct vs theory)
and 4. a game with Beelzebub in georgetown(yuck belzefail).

Axle you are my 5th to trigger this instinct in a strong enough manner.
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Post Post #1860 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:58 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

Spoiler: things I liked in PereV filter
Yep this is me liking part of the post Fonz says screams scum, and yes I can point fingers at other bits, or just say he is warming up to the game having started late.

In post 385, PeregrineV wrote:

In post 49, Boonskiies wrote:
unvote

I like this.

I liked this because its not direct crank the handle observation. Boonskies IMO unvoted because of the state of the thread.
If we were reading some people, then if they did not to have the stones to stay on their RVS while someone else makes push, and then unvote only if the response is towny enough, would show fear.
On boonskies that unvote seems about right to me and it shows boonskies was paying at least some attention.
Hence PereV made a judgement I agree with.

In post 391, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 46, TierShift wrote:Disclaimer: this is my first large game and I have no idea how to approach it.

In post 75, TierShift wrote:
VOTE: TierShift
Deal with it.


This would be the scum approach to dealing with a previously unknown environment.

I like this post as its either reading ISOs checking for consistency, or remembering posts across time. That happens when people try to solve the game.

In post 393, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 388, Thor665 wrote:1. I found it annoying that he was taking derp fake claims serious and extending the derp fake claim discussion.

So you vote was because you found him annoying, but not scum?

Even though tis you this tree was worth rattling.

In post 395, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 87, Garmr wrote:
first read of the game.
a medium town with high chance of idiocy.


Pretty harsh page 4 criticism. What were the top 5 posts inthsoe 4 pages that points you to "town idiocy"?

This post calms down, the chance of people pissing others off with that kind of put down. Enhances a pro town atmosphere.


I found town motivated posts, or ones that townies make naturally.
Yes PereV can fake them and does when scum, but they are towny and they are there.
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Post Post #1861 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:00 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 1860, AxleGreaser wrote:I found town motivated posts, or ones that townies make naturally.
Yes PereV can fake them and does when scum, but they are towny and they are there.



Also, as i oppose the PereV and the Thor wagon on D1, then i owe thread the same towny posts from Thors filter.

Id like to lynch people D1, without so much of that kind of content.
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Post Post #1862 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:06 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 1859, Garmr wrote:
In post 1853, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1851, Garmr wrote:
Because Tso is being Tso.


Do you have specific game to refer me to that will make your point clear? (so that I can see it for myself)

I expect that to be way harder thing to do as TSO is more experienced player with larger palette of previous play styles as town or scum.

Also I do argue he is better lynch that PereV, or Thor, who I have said I dont want to lynch D1.

This for instance is self described on wiki "Bah. I played fucking shit here."
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=29163
and he does not seem to do the anti town stuff I am talking about there.


Wait you ask me for examples as why tso is being tso but it's ok that annienen didn't provide an example how boon is self conscious as town and your fine with that? (even through i do think his town now.) That's kinda bs and hypo fucking critical. I'm going to show you a game where tso is acting similarly to what he is now except he used no hard cases at all, mini 1510 . He also got into one of his pushes on majiffy like he did with ane this game and it lasted till a majjify lynch if i remember correctly.

This game also shows my 2nd scum tick which i only had 4 times before this game
1.my first normal with banksy flareon
2.that game on grimgrove (tso counter pushed me on this one day 1 i so could of got him lynched but then again i fucked up end game.),
3.Regefan in mafia in space(ffery told me to shut up about regefan because she was in a foul mood and he was her number 1 town read I was right she was wrong :P instinct vs theory)
and 4. a game with Beelzebub in georgetown(yuck belzefail).

Axle you are my 5th to trigger this instinct in a strong enough manner.


No it
is
ok that you didnt provide them in the first place. (doing so would have made your post excessively long)

However I am now asking you to back up your claim.
Feel very very very free to also do that with Aneninen.

What I dont like is this kind of response
In post 383, T S O wrote:I really don't agree with anything Aneninen is saying right now.


as it does not promote discussion. Its not refutable. Aneneinen tried a bit clumsily to point out TSO cant mean disagrees with literally everything.
but TSO just slapped that away aswell
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Post Post #1863 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:08 am

Post by Thor665 »

So are you settling your count at '4'?

Because the discussion was who could find more.
I, personally, just intend to use whatever justification you use to trawl through TSO's ISO, but I bet I can do better than 4 - especially with intense tells like 'remembers stuff posted in the past'.
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Post Post #1864 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:27 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 1859, Garmr wrote: That's kinda bs and hypo fucking critical.

No its not, and this push of your is really very lame, as described the situation are different.


I'm going to show you a game where tso is acting similarly to what he is now except he used no hard cases at all, mini 1510 . He also got into one of his pushes on majiffy like he did with ane this game and it lasted till a majjify lynch if i remember correctly.


In the game you linked..... :(
Apparently no you are not. He voted SGirl, and replaced out before any lynch. Yes he was clearly playing an IDGAF game.

No he was not posting put downs or a number of other things he has done this game.
No I didnt see him refusing to talk to peole or refuse to post reasons to back up his claims


perhaps you linked the wrong game? mini 1510
fits your description better, but no TSO is not
Using insults and put down to shut down weaker players, instead of determine their alignment.

I did see him say "If you gave reasoning for doing ...well, anything, you might be of some value as Town. As it stands, nah."

which would imply that as town he has an object on to not giving reasoning for his Aneninen wagon in this game.

I strongly disagree, that you have shown meta for TSO being TSO that suggests he is town.
Also single cases, dont make meta.


You will need to reword whatever it is you are saying about ticks because I cant parse it.
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Post Post #1865 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:32 am

Post by T S O »

If anyone wants me to respond to that, ask. Otherwise, I'll just continue with the case on Anen.

The above is heavily filled with misreps and fallacies, but I'd still prefer not to have to waste an hour taking it apart.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #1866 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:32 am

Post by Garmr »

@axle am writing another one but I linked the wrong thing thats mini 1516 but I meant 1510

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=32209
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Post Post #1867 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:33 am

Post by Garmr »

In post 1863, Thor665 wrote:So are you settling your count at '4'?

Because the discussion was who could find more.
I, personally, just intend to use whatever justification you use to trawl through TSO's ISO, but I bet I can do better than 4 - especially with intense tells like 'remembers stuff posted in the past'.


I'm willing to bet this is 5 off the bat but I've only been in 14 games I haven't completed all of them due to the ban and the fact i used to replace alot into games. But like I said it's not a tell thing it's a instinct there's no logic behind a instinct(Not going to say my case case no logic because it does but that's separate in my eyes) I'm just noting I had it for bragging rights at the end of the game if(90%) he flips scum. Also there has only ever been one game as town where I didn't have scum in my scum pile for most of the game. I was a miserable failure that game (on the boat). But when i talk strong instinct I mean a screaming sound.
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Post Post #1868 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:35 am

Post by Garmr »

In post 1864, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1859, Garmr wrote: That's kinda bs and hypo fucking critical.

No its not, and this push of your is really very lame, as described the situation are different.


No there fucking not and that's what ticks me off.
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Post Post #1869 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:35 am

Post by T S O »

My playstyle is to call stuff I think is shit, shit. It doesn't mean I think I'm great. You know that, Axle, so why are you trying to say I do?

Also, many people have played with scum-me here and know my playstyle - Thor, for one, has and he's not scumreading me. Fairly sure gm has, he's not scumreading me. Cho has and, afaik, she wasn't scumreading me. Garmr probably has. PeregrineV has and he's not scumreading me either.

Either you think I'm supernaturally good at subverting my town meta, or I'm town. You're claiming the former, but you're not really backing it up one bit,
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #1870 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:36 am

Post by T S O »

Axle, have you even read any of my scumgames?
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #1871 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:36 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 1863, Thor665 wrote:So are you settling your count at '4'?

Because the discussion was who could find more.
I, personally, just intend to use whatever justification you use to trawl through TSO's ISO, but I bet I can do better than 4 - especially with intense tells like 'remembers stuff posted in the past'.



No I thought you said my turn first.

yeah that seemed like the kind of thing you might do.
(using my definition then shoe horning things to fit out of TSOs ISO. )
I am pretty sure however that if you look TSO has done very little of that.
and no, PereV did buckets more than that I started at the beginning of his ISO.

I do find examples of TSO posting links to multiple previous posts, but not then also drawing cogent relevant conclusion about whether someone is being self consistent.
It is a big ISO maybe I missed it, but in PereV ISO its easy to find?.

That rings alarm bells about your D1 wagon vs my vanity one for me.

(personally I am starting to suspect there is 5 scum teams of 4 guys each and me the only towny... but I checked and its not bastard, so :/
clearly I just don't get this game)

Garmr seems to be trying to get lynched from my POV. Its odd.
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Post Post #1872 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:47 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 1870, T S O wrote:Axle, have you even read any of my scumgames?



Its been a while, which is why I wanted Garmr to link me to your games that he said showed this games meta.

I will have seen others, when i read games for the primary purpose of learning other peoples meta.
IIRC (but havent found it again)
I believe I did read a newbie queue game of yours as scum IC, where I kept thinking that guys scum.(Thats why I read it to see if I was right) (my recollection is you lurked(didnt play) your arse of in a way I didnt think any self respecting town IC would, while town crashed and burned itself.)

I have some awareness of your reputation, and laughed when
In post 288, Cho wrote:You're never an easy vote. I cry every time I have to make it.

and thought bullshit at the easy vote part of this
In post 287, T S O wrote:You voted me when I'm an easy vote at the moment and you have no real way to back it up whatsoever.

but did understand what I thought you meant. (but its not an easy vote)
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Post Post #1873 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:51 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 1868, Garmr wrote:
In post 1864, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1859, Garmr wrote: That's kinda bs and hypo fucking critical.

No its not, and this push of your is really very lame, as described the situation are different.


No there fucking not and that's what ticks me off.


did you read 1862 it explains how they are different.
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Post Post #1874 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:51 am

Post by T S O »

oh goddd not 1492

that was a really awful game where I lurked and then threw the game :(
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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