NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #1825 (ISO) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:56 am

Post by Scripten »

TSO:
I take it that you're townreading Boon, righ? Just want to check where you stand right now.
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Post Post #1826 (ISO) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:02 pm

Post by Boonskiies »

I believe Thor is town.
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Post Post #1827 (ISO) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:02 pm

Post by T S O »

Yeah.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #1828 (ISO) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:06 pm

Post by Muffin »

Prod dodge. At a wedding, back late tomorrow night.
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Post Post #1829 (ISO) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:13 pm

Post by Flubbernugget »

So Boons you didn't answer my question.
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Post Post #1830 (ISO) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:14 pm

Post by Flubbernugget »

Also why you're here, convince me that Thor is town.
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Post Post #1831 (ISO) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:14 pm

Post by Flubbernugget »

*while
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Post Post #1832 (ISO) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:23 pm

Post by Boonskiies »

That was my answer to your question. Thor is town. He be town, because he ain't scum.
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Post Post #1833 (ISO) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:02 pm

Post by Flubbernugget »

"town" is not a reaction.
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Post Post #1834 (ISO) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:02 pm

Post by Flubbernugget »

and you really played me there. I should self vote in shame.
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Post Post #1835 (ISO) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:03 pm

Post by T S O »

the case is coming, btw, surely but very slowly.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #1836 (ISO) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:06 pm

Post by goodmorning »

In post 1803, davesaz wrote:
In post 1648, goodmorning wrote:
Barring that, can you point to anything concrete in the thread to explain any of your reads?

I'm going to pretend I don't know what you're implying.

Explain your reads. I don't listen to meta, I lynch the players who rely too much on it. Because only scum don't explain their reads.
Clear enough for you?

Yeahhhhhhh, "pretend" wasn't in there because I wanted you to explain; if I had I'd have asked you to.
"Pretend" was in there because I was trying not to get annoyed.
"Was" is in the previous sentence because now I
am
annoyed.

In post 1805, davesaz wrote:
In post 1802, goodmorning wrote:
Town
anyone
is more likely to fall into that trap. That TSO is especially isn't really the point.

I happen to agree with this, though it does start a little in the direction of assuming scum
can't
tunnel. I think it's more accurate to say that scum do tunnel, but they do it strategically where they're likely to either appear town or get a mislynch. Scum don't generally tunnel randomly, and they don't generally go back to their tunnel after being called on it by town. This analysis counts as a town-leaning factor for TSO.

I didn't mean that he was tunneling. TSO does that regardless. I meant that he was in a discussion with no percentage.

I don't like TSO's attempted use of appeal to his own authority. I have not looked deeply into the reasons it came up, and have no real desire to do so. Even if it were in direct response to something like "your case is crap", using previous results to show he can catch scum (in a good game for him) doesn't give a free pass on proving his case in this game. If someone challenges his case, he needs to be able to back it up. If he can't back it up, admit it was a bad case and move on. Not being able to back a case, and in particular being unwilling to back it, is scummy. Notice I'm not focusing on the AtA itself, but the lack of backing on the case.

Except that it wasn't anything to do with his case. It was a pissing contest with Nero, and only that.

In post 1821, Slandaar wrote:
In post 1802, goodmorning wrote:
It's terribly transparent, trying to lynch a PR. Your answer is too simple - it doesn't take consequences into account.

PR's get lynched all the time by town and scum alike. The 'consequences' are what? they may get lynched for it? but it's no different to any other town wagon/lynch they try to push.

Today is Day 1. If you don't get why that makes a difference then perhaps you should try to figure it out.

I'm sorry you replaced into a Scum slot, but sidetracking me with theory discussions is not helpful.
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Post Post #1837 (ISO) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:38 pm

Post by Flubbernugget »

He comes off as scum to you?
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Post Post #1838 (ISO) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:32 pm

Post by Izariael »

Hey all,

weekend time which means I can finally catch up fully :) I'll be reading through tonight and hope to be fully caught up before I go to bed for the night and have some posts made.

Off to read! *vazooms away*
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Post Post #1839 (ISO) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:09 pm

Post by davesaz »

In post 1836, goodmorning wrote:
Yeahhhhhhh, "pretend" wasn't in there because I wanted you to explain; if I had I'd have asked you to.
"Pretend" was in there because I was trying not to get annoyed.
"Was" is in the previous sentence because now I
am
annoyed.

Well, you responded and I think it was a fair price.

I'm not quite ready to call TSO totally town based on your explanation, but I agree that the potential reward on his play does not seem to make sense for scum. Waiting for his promised case... The lack of apparent scum motivation for TSO's play makes me doubt Axle. While Axle has posted on other topics, his push on TSO seems awfully one dimensional, and he doesn't seem to be taking enough surrounding information into account. However, Axle's push does get mitigated to some extent for a similar reason that TSO gets mitigated. I'm not sure what's the scum angle in continuing to push someone when the argument isn't gaining traction.

Likewise I'm not willing to call Thor as definitely not town, because there isn't a lot of directly scummy behavior. I am significantly less confident in his towniness than early in the gamee. Like Axel, he is posting on multiple topics but doesn't seem to be actually pushing anyone but PereV. There is support for the PereV wagon which means it's not as risky for potential scum to maintain.

I'm interested in hearing more / looking into The Fonz. I got immediate scum vibes but can't quite lay a finger on it right now.

The set of talking people seems to be smaller than the set of not replaced people. I know there are a couple of V/LA but still I'd probably like to suspect the ones who are here doing next to nothing over the ones who are not here at all.
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Post Post #1840 (ISO) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:14 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 1836, goodmorning wrote:I didn't mean that he was tunneling. TSO does that regardless. I meant that he was in a discussion with no percentage.


I think I understand what you are saying. On that basis.

What is his percentage in the discussion as town?
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Post Post #1841 (ISO) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:40 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 1840, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1836, goodmorning wrote:I didn't mean that he was tunneling. TSO does that regardless. I meant that he was in a discussion with no percentage.


I think I understand what you are saying. On that basis.

What is his percentage in the discussion as town?


also I have scum percentage... youre town reading him for it... seems like a pretty good percentage to me
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Post Post #1842 (ISO) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:00 pm

Post by Aegor »

*sigh* Replacing WBOCampire1104 upon request because of game size. Deadline suspended once again.
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Post Post #1843 (ISO) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:06 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

@Thread

How to know TSO is scum.

If you have town PM, look at him is he playing on the same team as you?
(Nope, he is certainly not playing on my team)

Is he furthering discussion, generating information?

Spoiler: Some details
When he was voting and scum reading Aneninen was he probing Anenine drawing him out trying to get more information from the lynch, A lynch he supposedly wanted on his top scum read?
In post 481, T S O wrote:Do I have to respond to Aneninen's posts of bad?

This is not how you get someone to talk. This is how you shut it down.
Its also how you enjoy playing scum, if you enjoy that kind of thing.
In post 152, T S O wrote: […] the only thing I did/felt like doing was mildly ripping the piss out of you.

Apparently TSO does.

Or

was he as scum perfectly content to be voting a stalled wagon, and not interact with with view to getting Aneninen to give more tells, and interactions.
In repsonse to this post , which mentions many people and Anenines views on them
TSO effectively asks if he has stopped beating his wife yet.
In post 766, T S O wrote:why do you feel the need to constantly justify being illogical at worst or surface deep at best with your analysis

and why do you feel the need to constantly warn people about your wagon?

This again is not how you get an interaction to happen.

He has no curiosity if Aneninen actually believes his reads (because he is town), or if those reads will leak associations to his scum buddies.

Nope
.

Was he willing to explain his case to other people?
Nope.

When he did (explain some examples), it didn't stand up to actual scrutiny

Did he have a case?
In post 676, T S O wrote:So, what this boils down to is, that Thor has given a case, while I haven't,


Is TSO capable of town reading derpy town players he has very low regard for. (AKA does TSO habitually mistake bad for scum?)
Spoiler: nope, he knows bad!=scum
He thinks very poorly of pretty much everything Csaero says
In post 96, T S O wrote:I don't mean to be nasty, but I don't think you get just how bad I consider your townplay to be. Like, it's really, really awful.

but can still town read him
Post 152 and 48 suggest to me TSO was not even particularly suspicious that Csaero was scum and feeling antsy (hence being overly serious about RVS) as early as post 48.

So his inability to be able to read the possibility any towniess at all into Aneninens posts
In post 874, T S O wrote:-Aneninen's readslists are awful. Aneninen is really blatantly scum. Literally, everything he does is scum, from harp on about his wagon to talking to me like he's both scumreading me and townreading me in the same post. It's horrific. He's a better vote than PV.

Did he ever point out just where... Aneninen both scum reads and town reads him?

BTW no not literally everything Aneninen does is scum.
And when TSO actually put that to the test , ends up at
In post 1240, T S O wrote:Ugh, I guess you've maybe got a point there.


Did he then test if the rest of his claimed reasons were valid? Where are they?
DO you know the plenty of reasons TSo thought Anenine was scummy? If note vote TSO. now.


TSO never had case, or a real reason to vote Aneninen, what he had was place to hide.

Then make lots and lots of look busy posts, and not actually read and analyse the thread
In post 840, T S O wrote:
I have thought a lot of his pushes seem to go over my head
due to me skimming most of his arguments if they bore me,
but I don't know if that's relevant to him, rather than me just being a lazy skimming fuck. Meh.


And whats TSOs view on people who refuse to talk to other people
In post 1237, T S O wrote:Well, I 100%
despise
[..other things he despises..], as well as the whole "I'm-not-talking-to-you" routine, [..more words..]


That however does not stop him, refusing point blank to talk people. That rather large glaring internal inconsistency. Townies tend not to do things they despise, especially when those things are inherently scummy and anti town.

Lynch TSO Today
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Post Post #1844 (ISO) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:19 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 1836, goodmorning wrote:

I don't like TSO's attempted use of appeal to his own authority. I have not looked deeply into the reasons it came up, and have no real desire to do so. Even if it were in direct response to something like "your case is crap", using previous results to show he can catch scum (in a good game for him) doesn't give a free pass on proving his case in this game. If someone challenges his case, he needs to be able to back it up. If he can't back it up, admit it was a bad case and move on. Not being able to back a case, and in particular being unwilling to back it, is scummy. Notice I'm not focusing on the AtA itself, but the lack of backing on the case.

Except that it wasn't anything to do with his case. It was a pissing contest with Nero, and only that.


Well not really, TSO has had an ongoing pattern of appeal to his authority by denigrating that of anyone else.
Spoiler: denigrating posts
Not claiming none of them were earned, and this is the school of hard knocks.

In post 90, T S O wrote:Idiocy confirmed!
PEdit: Sweetheart, I'm not sure if you were reading or not, but I was actually the one calling you town.


In post 426, T S O wrote:What would you grade your reading ability, out of 10? Right now it's a 3 and going down constantly.


In post 463, T S O wrote:Does anyone want to explain why Pere's actually scum, without attached mindless rhetoric? I don't get it/I'm too lazy to read it.


In post 481, T S O wrote:Do I have to respond to Aneninen's posts of bad?


So yeah I think rather large slice of TSO play has been based on "Youre bad, I am good, I am so good I dont have to do jack shit." (even though he despises that approach to play)
Well he does that with whoever he thinks he can get away with it.
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Post Post #1845 (ISO) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:31 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

so far he is getting away with it, and youre town reading him for it? (as its got no percentage except you town reading him for it?)
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Post Post #1846 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:54 am

Post by Garmr »

In post 1845, AxleGreaser wrote:so far he is getting away with it, and youre town reading him for it? (as its got no percentage except you town reading him for it?)


You agree that boonskies is being boonskies right?
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Post Post #1847 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:19 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 1846, Garmr wrote:
In post 1845, AxleGreaser wrote:so far he is getting away with it, and youre town reading him for it? (as its got no percentage except you town reading him for it?)


You agree that boonskies is being boonskies right?


That phrase came up in this context
In post 420, Aneninen wrote:
Garrmrrmr wrote:Boonskies was the fact he needed to clarify that those were rvs votes.1 No one really asked him for it and it seems odd as town why you feel the need to say hey this is a rvs vote.


(1) Boonskiies was just being Boonskiies. I can tell you I've seen that. Even if you haven't come across with him, why is it a scumtell?


On that occasion, you replied
In post 423, Garmr wrote:1.I'm not the only one who thought that was scummy (thor did) and how is that even a defence boon skies is boon skies. Like i said why would town need to clarify themselves.


and its true that, feeling the need to over explain yourself at that stage of the game can be a scum tell.
however "Boonkies is Boonskies is a short hand way to tell you that with respect to how Boonskies plays that was not all that remarkable.

That is my view even if Boonskies has never felt the need to say that before!!!!
Why?
Context, at post , Csaero had been taking all sorts of things and treating them disproportionately seriously.
I can imagine even a town Boonksie thinking nope, "As my second vote had reason, I had better inb4 someone takes it wrong"

at the very least it is an actual argument by Aneninen, it may be wrong, but its not dismissable out of hand.

I am not in anyway keen to lynch Boonskie today.

What exactly are you asking me to agree to? You seem to be fishing for an open ended agreement, that I absolutely read Boonskie is Boonskie.
Indeed the D1 soft claim is I think a bit weird(not seen before)(new Boonskie) but I have no intention of talking about it today.
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Post Post #1848 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:19 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

ah yeah, so take this where its going. k.
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Post Post #1849 (ISO) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:23 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 1848, AxleGreaser wrote:ah yeah, so take this where its going. k.



As in: Yes, I agree that peoples alignment is best determined by considering them in terms of themselves not just against an absolute scale of towniness.

(Eg Thor and Perv are both posting more insightful posts than say Aneninen or Csaero (pretty sure all 4 agree)
(However Thor claims PereV is skating (or something) and yes PereV has to live up to expectations of PereV not a newer less experienced player.)

does that help?
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