Mini 461 "24" Game Over. Roll Credits

[Yosarian2]

Hmmm...this is an interesting set-up.

Looking at the list of positions, I notice that there are more possible positions avalable then there are players in the game, so we will want to try and figure out which positions are the most important/useful to the town.

First of all, it looks like some of the positions help for the normal mafia "find the bad guys and lynch them" game and win condition, and some seem more useful in the "help Jack Bauer" win condition. We might have to decide which one of those two victory conditions we want to focus on, as we can either win by catching the bad guys or we can win by helping Jack Bauer. My inclination would be that it would probably be best to mostly focus on the "catching the scum" win condition, unless we seem to be in imminent danger of losing or winning due to the "Jack Bauer" win condition, but that's just me; and of course there's some overlap, as catching the scum will help us prevent people from giving Jack Bauer bad intel, and on the other hand watching people try to give Jack Bauer intel might help us find the scum.

Let me re-read the roles in a bit more detail, see if I can figure out which roles are most useful to the town to fill.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, so we have 12 people. We always have to have a Director and a Deputy Director, so that leaves 10 more people we can put into positions here. Like I said, I think our main priority for now should probably be to find the scum, so I'm focusing on that for figuring out what positions to fill.

It sounds like the Counterintellegence Agent is our main cop, so it sounds like we definatly want to keep that position filled. It's defiantly very vulnerable, though, as the identity is known to everyone, and it takes him 4 hours to investigate someone while the scum can kill every 3 hours. So the only way we're going to get any information is if we protect him. And he also has to have at least 1 crypto agent to pass information to; 2 might be better, just so the scum don't know who he sent the information to.

If we want to keep the counterintellegence agent alive, I think we'll need at least 1 "field agent", as field agents can be assigned to do bodyguard duty for another player, and that's the only "doc-like" ability I see on the list, unless I missed somehting. The other "field agent" abilities all sound like they're focused on helping Jack out in the field.

The Signals Intelligence Analysts can intecept communications from any player to the mod, which sounds to me like it's a little bit better then a tracker. We definatly should always have both of those positions filled, I think.

If we've got 2 Signals Intellegence Analysts, and 1 Counterintellegence agent, and if it takes a player a full hour to decrypt messages, and there'll also be messages coming in from Jack in the field, we probably want to keep all 3 crypto positions filled.

So, at the moment, I'm thinking that we will always want to have at least 1 Counterintellegence Agent, 1 field agent, 2 signal intellegence analysts ,and 3 crypto analysts, which makes 7 people out of the 10 we'll have avalable. Those 7 out of our 10 positions seem to me to be the most important and should always be kept filled so long as we have enugh people left alive to fill them, unless we really need to help out Jack Bauer with some other ability. Some of the others sound interesting, as well, like the ability by the FBI lieason to "arrest" a player could be useful.

[Yosarian2]

Actually, now that I take a better look, I think we'll always want an FBI liason, those abilites are just too important, especally as it looks like he might be some kind of information role with that 3rd ability.

The FBI is able to carry out a variety of operations on domestic soil including,

Arrest,(Can be used on Players)
Release,(Can be used on arrested players)
Information Extraction(Looking at a player's extensive personal history/expenses to figure out if they are likely to be compromised)
Storming Targets,
Wiretapping,

The other 4 liasons all sound like they have abilites more designed to help Jack then to help us catch the scum.

[Yosarian2]

CTD, you're missing a position. Deputy Director is one of our essentials.

Actually, he's not; Director and Deputy Director are both manditory, so I think we're both just trying to figure out what's the best use for the other 10 people.

[Yosarian2]

I refuse to vote Yossarion or whatever on the basis that his name comes from that awful book "Catch-22", so I will

Vote: Guardian

because I hope he will guard us.

On another note, I'm not sure I see how random votes for director are really going to be helpful right now; usually random votes are mostly to try to get a reaction or whatever and I don't see how that really applies here.

[Yosarian2]

CTD: Ok; the only big difference between my list and yours is that you are assuming 3 field agents, while I was thinking that 1 or perhaps 2 to protect the counterintellegence agent might be enough.

[Yosarian2]

CTD: Ok; the only big difference between my list and yours is that you are assuming 3 field agents, while I was thinking that 1 or perhaps 2 to protect the counterintellegence agent might be enough.

Seeing as Field Agents seem to be completely transparent in their work, I don't see any reason to let players do nothing when they could fill positions there instead.

They're transparent in their work? I don't know about that, some of that "assasination" ect stuff might let the scum hurt Jack Bower if they're field agents.

I agree that we probably don't want people doing nothing, though. I'd be tempted to make someone who seems scummy or lurky/useless Deputy Director, as that's basically the most useless position and it's one we have to fill, and then just have field agenets protect the director so the deputy never takes over. Might be dangerous though.

[Yosarian2]

One thing that I think is definitely a good idea, that no one pointed out yet , is that while we do want 3 guys that can decipher the crypto, the director can unassign and reassign positions at any time!!! So we only need the 3 one hour guys for one hour! So, we could have like 4 liasons doing their jobs, and then reassign 3 of them to crypto when their jobs and the person who gets the crypto's jobs are finished!

You know that 1 hour=3 real life days, right?

Every "hour", I'd think that the two Signals Intelligence Analysts would get new info and send it to the crypto guys, and then it will take them another entire "hour" (3 real life days) to decrypt it, by which point they'll get more info.

Although the fact that the director can move people around is a good point...if the crypto guys aren't going to get any info from the signals guys until hour 2, perhaps we could start with just 1 crypto guy to get any info Jack might send us, and have a few extra liasons or whatever doing stuff during hour 1.

Also, no one really answered my thoughts about how having an easier to read and more likely to work with the town director is safer. I see myself, YB, UA, and possibly some other people as more likely to do that than Ctd, Yos, and Cdb.

Spambot's post was indeed odd.

So, your suggest is bascially that we put someone "easy to read" as director, and then just lynch them if they start to look scummy? That sounds rather iffy to me. And I'm not sure I really find yougurt easy to read anyway, I usually have an easier time reading people I've played multiple games with before.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I've noticed a few posts about my first comment on page 1 (I think), and I meant since he didn't give the townie roles out yet, I was accidently confirming myself as town; then added 'I'm kidding' so I don't cause any confusion.

Just finishing reading this, and I strongely disagree with giving the most intelligent player the lead role. I suggest we give it to the

newest/worst

, but easiest to read player, so that rather than if they were scum them manipulating us, we come to a group decision and make that player do what we want. It'll be hard for them as scum to work independantly, since they'll be a newbie. It's much safer to make this a group decision than a decision for a single guy. Scum trying to manipulate a weak leader should be rooted out by the more intelligent players here, or the group as a whole.

Similarily, I say we give the intelligent players the roles least useful to the terrorists and most useful to the town so they can't screw us over that bad if they're scum.

The biggest problem with that line of thinking is that if we give the "newest/worst" people all the most "important" roles, then even if they are town they're more likely to make bad decisions. This is especally true with roles like crypto and the information roles and the director role; who to investigate, when to reveal information, and who to trust with vital roles are not necessarally choices we want our "worst" players to be making.

[Yosarian2]

Modnote: The Lag Time for the Liason Role means that you can't schuffle people in and out of the Liason roles while a certain action is being performed, the Liason has to be alive and be the Liason for as many hours as the lag is in order to complete an action.

Also crypto must be sent directly to the crypto guys, you can't have classified stuff just lying around waiting to be decrypted because it would be incredibly easy for a technically competent scum to change the content of the message. Messages must be transferred directly to a cryptographer.

Hmm...ok, we might not want just 1 crypto guy on hour 1 then, or else he'll be swamped with information that might take him several hours to decode, if he dosn't get killed before he finishes decoding it all.

[Yosarian2]

We could agree that everyone should relay information EXACTLY as how they recieved it, assuming they're newbies. Scum should be easier to pick out, and if newbies were doing the gambits they'd tend to be less succesful than a pro doing it.

Oh, of course. What I was talking about with the crypto guys is WHEN to reveal information; for example, if a crypto guy gets an investigative result and finds out someone's a confirmed innocent, when should he tell the town about it, that sort of thing.

[Yosarian2]

I don't think newer players are more likely to work with town, just easier to read if they slip up as scum. My sentence was confusing.

I do agree that we need someone competent as director, but again, I greatly fear us getting a very competent scum director who with strategic role assignments wins the game for the scum.

Also, what roles look like they are most likely kill targets? Crypto? Director? Whatever the case is, we don't want to put experienced people there, as it would give scum even more incentive to kill off better town players.

Yos, yes I know 1 hour = 3 life days. Pooky said this in the queue, I got it...
We can start with less crypto because we will probably be getting less crypto info in the beginning; we could have two extra liaisons doing tasks for the first few hours and then switch them to crypto.

And Yos, we may disagree on who is easy to read/not, but what in and of itself is fishy about putting someone easy to read as director and lynching them if they seem scummy? We definitely don't want a scum director, so...

It's absolutly true we don't want a scum director, that could be a disaster, and if the director starts to look scummy we very well might want to lynch them. Personally, I think we should more worry about voting for someone who during this "pregame" part looks both pro-town and looks like he'd do a good job about director, rather then focus on trying to pick someone "easy to read".

We could start with 2 cryptos during the first hour and then go to 3, but having just 1 for the first hour sounds quite dangerous to me; he'd have big backload of information, and if the scum kill him then we'd lose all of it.

As for kill targets, I'd say the #1 target is usually going to be the "counter-intellegence" cop, especally a cop who's halfway done a 4 hour investigation. The #2 target is probably either the director or a crypto with information. I don't know if that would encourage the scum to kill good players, though, as those are also the people most likely to get field agent bodyguards.

And btw, as I think about it, I agree CTD's idea that we should make suspicious looking players or lurky players into field agents; with the bodyguard thing, we basically want the field agents to be...(cough)...expendable.

[Yosarian2]

I hate those two paragraphs. The first is speculating kill targets, which may mean you are thinking out lud while making it look good. It also has an air of scuminess too it, Theres no doubt about that.

...what?

First of all, Guardian just speculated about the exact same thing, and you didn't have a problem with him doing it. The inconsistancy of you ignoring him for saying that and attacking me for saying that is interesting, especally because he was earlier pushing for you as director.

fos:Yogurt, fos:Guardian

because of a possible connection there.

Anyway, what's wrong with me pointing out who the key targets are? I think it's an important thing to discuss, so the bodyguards know who to protect.

The last sentence, is basically putting people at death. Of course, it will protect Crptyos and Directors, but still. Expendable? Sounds like an easy death for the terrorists. The last thing we want is for 3 Agents to go down in the first 12 Hours. With Lynches, Mafia kills are 3, and Lynches are 4, So we could have 7 deaths in the first 12 hours. Which could possibly mean horror and terror for CTU. Assign most to Liason, its a role that cant do too much dangeR (aside from NSA)

That dosn't make any sense. It looks like the scum probably ARE going to kill when they choose to, we don't seem to have any roles that can stop that, no role-blockers or doctors or anything. The only control we have is WHO the scum kill, because we can have bodyguards protect the key pro-town roles, so that the town can hopefully get investigate results from the cop and trackers without losing that info to nightkills.

And I don't see how my suggestion is anti-town. If X is a pro-town person who is considered to be highly scummy and suspicious by the rest of the town, it would be much better for the town if he sacrificed himself to save the cop from a nightkill rather then us eventually lynching him. Sorry if that sounds cold to you, but it's good pro-town stratagy.

[Yosarian2]

With that said, it is EXTREMELY necessary that nobody lurk. Nine days for the equivalent of a normal mafia day isn't very much time, especially for a day 1. It seems like there will be a lot of info coming in and we can't afford to have somebody with an important job slacking or missing deadlines.

Truth.

Not only is it a matter of 9 RL days per lynch, we might not want to wait until hour 3 to get off the first lynch, because the town might get more lynches if we start lynching in hour 1 or 2. So, everyone start thinking about who looks scummy, because if we could put together the first lynch in the first 3 or 6 days it would be a good thing.

[Yosarian2]

It's also the role most powerful in the hands of intelligent scum.

Interesting. Why do you say that? Scum very rarely try to lie and fake cop results, although this setup does raise the risk a bt, because we won't know if it was the cop or the crypto messing with us. Still and all, it'd be a huge risk for either of them to flat out lie about cop results; I'm be more worried about a scum crypto messing with us in more subtle ways.

I suggest we once again, give it to a newbie, because scum trying to lie as cop is going to leave some large footprints. There's still the problem of

when

the cop reveals information, but this'd really only apply in games where we don't all know who he is.

I believe it's not the cop who would have that choice, it's the crypto who would decode the info and get the result. And if we get a confirmed innocent, we woudln't necessarally want the crypto to say that right away, because then the confirmed innocent would just get killed. It's better for the town to reveal confirmed innocents as late as possible, either when they would otherwise be lynched or in as close to an endgame situation as is practical, the information is just more useful then.

I was thinking, in fact, that that's something the director's ability to talk in private could be useful for; if a crypto gets a confirmed innocent, he tells the director rather then telling the whole town, that way the information isn't lost unless both the crypto and the director get killed, and it'd make it harder for a scum crypto to hold back information then him just not telling anyone at all.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah; based on the mod post, it sounds like counterintellegence agents send their results to cryptos, and it also sounds like they can only send their result to 1 crypto. Which probably means they don't find out if the person they investigated was town or scum, although they should at least know WHO they investigated which should limit the ways in which a scum crypto could lie. It also sounds like a scum counterintellegence agent could intentionally send the crypto bad info, though. And it also sounds like he can only send the info to 1 crypto, instead of multiple cryptos.

Counterintelligence Agent(1)

Counterintelligence is the section that handles internal investigations in order to root out terrorist agents, the Counterintelligence Agent can investigate a player's prior history in order to get a result about his innocence or guilt(by pulling his entire phone records for the past month).

Since the phone records are encrypted, they must be decrypted by a crypto agent.

All investigations take four hours to complete so it's important that you choose wisely who to investigate. Investigations can be interrupted or cancelled by choice or death of agent involved, partial investigations are not saved and must be restarted.(If you begin investigating player X at hour 1, the investigation will be done by the beginning of hour 5 and you can foward the results to a chosen crypto agent at that point. you may not send multiple results to multiple crypto agents).

Beware of putting a terrorist in this position because he is very likely to falsify investigation results!

So, yeah; I'm going to agree with you here, we probably want the people we trust the most to be cryptos, because they're the ones who are going to get most of our information first.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, you seem scummy, trying to post a lot and throw around a lot of good ideas to get the nomination. If you are town, though I would like to be director myself, I would be happy with you being director.

Are you town, Yos?

Heh. Yes, I'm town.

As for the "campaigning for director" thing; well, I always tend to run for "mayor" ish roles when pro-town, because I trust myself more then someone else, if that makes any sense. I can show you some examples if you want. I also always love to try and figure out the best pro-town stratagy of how to use special rules and roles in theme games; I just have a lot of fun doing that.

That being said, I don't really care if I am director or not, so long as whoever does become director is willing to listen to my ideas. I'd like to be, sure, but if you guys for whatever reason distrust me, you should pick someone else; if nothing else, it would be incredibly difficult for me to try and plan stratagy and move people around into different roles and all that while half the town is trying to lynch me. If you guys decide you don't want me as director, I'd suggest CrashTextDummies, he seems to have a pretty good understanding of how to use the different roles and such, and the way he's thinking about stuff gives me a good vibe about him.

[Yosarian2]

Yos said he was town.

He wouldn't lie to me.

Yos, I actually would like to see those examples where you tried to become director as pro town. Doesn't mean you are town here, but it makes it more plausible.

Well, for example, in the oigional Reverse Mafia I campaigned quite hard to be the first person nominated for revival.

[Yosarian2]

because I trust myself more then someone else, if that makes any sense. I can show you some examples if you want.

Hehe, I definitely identify with you on the first part; I know I am pro town, I only can suspect to a certain degree of confidence that the rest of you are pro town.

The second part, you gave me one example, and no links. I would appreciate more.

Yeah...I really thought there were more games where I "ran" for mayor as town, but I can't seem to find them. Only other game I could find where I was town and there was a mayor was covert opps mafia, and I didn't want to be mayor in that game, because mayor couldn't be nightkilled, and with my role being very dangerous to the town I wanted to get nightkilled ASAP.

Anyway, the one that I told you about, reverse mafia, you can find here:
viewtopic.php?t=3923&start=0. I was pro-town, and got myself revived first, during day 1; if you take a look at day 1, I think you'll see that I played pretty much like I'm playing this game, basically getting myself elected day 1 mostly because of a whole lot of stratagy/theory type discussion posts.

[Yosarian2]

Right now I think a good starting setup would be:
1x Director
1x Deputy Director
2x Crypto Analysists
2x Field Agent
1x Counterintelligence Agent
4x Liasons
1x SIA

Why do you think the liasons are more important then SIA's?

[Yosarian2]

Korran: Is this your first mafia game?

[Yosarian2]

Ah, ok, I had missed that.

Anyway, I don't know that korran's vote really tells us much at this point. If one of the two of them turn out to be scum, it'll be worth looking at though.

[Yosarian2]

I think it tells us something, Yos. It has the potential of forming a link between two players (Korran and Guardian) and this is useful information - both now and in the future. I think it's something worth noting now, early in the game, not if and when one is lynched and turns out to be scum.

I agree with that. And like I mentioned before, I also noticed a possible connection between Guardian and Yogurt earlier.

[Yosarian2]

Heh. Yeah, exactally. I don't know if there's actaully a scum link between Guardian and Yogurt, it could just be that they're friends outside of the game or something, but I definatly wouldn't vote for either one to be director at this point.

[Yosarian2]

You know, Guardian, I have difficulty following your line of thinking. Earlier you said that you find both Yosarian and

yourself

scummy for trying to be director, which is an incredibly twisted way of looking at things. You say you are pro-town, so you of all people should be able to recognize the motivation of a pro-town player to become director.

Agreed; I'm kind of wondering if Guardian is trying to cast suspicion on the other candidates for dictator just to help himself get elected.

[Yosarian2]

Hah...yeah, that's a funny misanthropism there. Yeah, director.

[Yosarian2]

Hmm. I know the mod's away, but I would like to see a votecount before deadline. I'll vote for either myself or CTD, depending on who's winning.

[Yosarian2]

Hmm. I know the mod's away, but I would like to see a votecount before deadline. I'll vote for either myself or CTD, depending on who's winning.

Why depending on whos winning?

Because I want either me or CTD elected, I don't want Guardian elected because I don't trust him at the moment. So if (hypothetically speacking) Guardian is first in the votecount, CTD is second, and I'm third, I'd vote CTD.

[Yosarian2]

Here are a couple of question I think everyone should answer, in order to give the Director (whoever that may be) an idea of where everyone stands:

1. What do you think the most important role (besides Director) is?

The most important single role is probably the counterintellegence agent. The crypto roles are also vital.

2. Which player would you like to see in that position?

Hmm. For counterintellegence agent, I'd want someone who looks pro-town to me and is already trying to figure out who the scum are. Perhaps Xdaamno or CTD. Whoever it is, we'd want to leave him in that position for 4 days, and defend him with bodyguards and such, so it'd have to be someone we trust and who's active and paying attention.

3. Which player do you trust least?

At the moment, probably guardian, yogurt, and the lurkers.

4. What role, if any, would you like assigned to that player?

Field agents aren't bad, although we might not want ALL the field agents to be lurkers/scummy players. Some of the liason positions seem like they couldn't hurt the town directly if a scum gets his hands on it, although they might be able to sabatauge us on the "Jack Bouer" side of things, so we'd have to play that by ear. Making someone suspicious looking a signal intellegence analysist might put him in a tricky position if we direct him; I'll have to think about that. In any case, I would give everyone some position, I think; the risk of giving a scum power is balanced out by the info we can get by watching how people use their power.

Strange as it may sound, I'd also be tempted to make Guardian assistant director, in the hopes that if he is scum we might be able to get an investigation on him before the director dies and lynch him if he's scum, and a scum assistant director can't really do any harm on his own; and OTOH, if he turns out to not be scum Guardian might not be a bad director. He's at least active and thinking about stratagy.

[Yosarian2]

Ok; if the voting's that close, then I might as well

vote:Yosarian

for director.

Anyway, Guardian, I would never put a player I don't trust in the position of FBI liasion, as the FBI liasion also has the ability to "arrest" other players; I'm not entirely sure what that means, but I'm pretty sure it's not a power we want in the hands of the scum.

(On another note, perhaps I'm paranoid, but something about his last post makes me wonder if Guardian might be trying to set up a long-term "If Yos dosn't get killed it means he's scum!" trap for me.)

Anyway, we need to have a deputy director, and it'll be a tricky position to fill; if the director puts an active player there, then he's not doing anything, but if he puts a lurker there, then if the director dies the town loses a lot of flexability. Putting you there, Guardian, is about the best compromise I can think of; do you have a better suggestion?

[Yosarian2]

Or

maybe

I keep on top of the games I've signed up for. How's that theory work for ya? I agree that the lurkers returning definitely look the most townie now because they're complaining of not receiving a mod PM about the game - but I didn't factor it in because I didn't sign up for a game and then forget about it.

I don't know how many you're playing in but it shouldn't be that hard.

Yeah, exactally; I'm playing two other games in this forum right now, including a speed mafia game, so as soon as this game started I noticed. And as soon as it opened I went through and read the rules pretty carefull before posting. Paying attention is not scummy.

It's interesting how many different people are trying the whole "I'm going to say I didn't get a role PM and therefore the fact that I said that that PROVES that I'm a good guy!" shtick. Some of them may be telling the truth, but I'm really wondering if the scum before the game all messaged each other and said "hey, guys, look at that in the rules, looks like townies don't get a role PM. When the game starts, make sure you all pretend you didn't get a role PM, ok guys?" Too many people are being way to obveous about saying they didn't get a role PM, when even if you skimmed the rules the fact that townies didn't get role PM's should have been obveous to anyone posting after Xdaamno's post #4, and that includes everyone.

[Yosarian2]

That's quite a fantasy you cooked up there, Yos.

FOS: Yosarian2

Oh, it's a "fantasy". You see, here I was thinking it was a "theory" or a "hypothisis". But I guess you would know better then me what the scum did or did not say to each other before the game started.

There was no confirmation, we didn't even know the game existed. Obvious vanillas are the 2 lurkers.

That's possible, and it's certanly understandable if true. I cetanly don't blame you for not knowing the game started. Alternatly, I don't consider you and Off the Mark as 100% confirmed innocents just because you didn't post for a while; it's not like that would have been a difficult thing for a clever scum to fake.

Now, based on your posts so far, I don't have any reason to suspect you specifically right now. I'm just always very cautious about declaring people 100# confirmed innocents this early in the game based on that kind of circumstantial evidene.

[Yosarian2]

(eyebrow) We're not SURE that anyone is pro-town, OTM.

[Yosarian2]

Still not going to make guardian FBI liason agent if I'm elected. That seems like positions we really want someone we can trust in; even if you "just" use it as a cop role like you claim, I still wouldn't really want a possible scum in a cop role.

Albert and UA might make good crypto agents. Not sure I trust Off The Mark, though; he seems to be trying WAY too hard to convince us all he's a confirmed innocent, when if he's a scum he could very easily have just read the rules post and decided to lurk until he was mod-prodded in order to pretend he didn't get a PM. And I also don't like the way he just tried to argue that "either he and albert are both town together or we're both scum" and tried to claim that they were basically "masons". Um, no, not at all. The whole tone of OTM's posts feels like that of a scum who's trying to make us think he's confirmed; Albert and UA have both made posts that have a pro-town feel to them, while OTM has been mostly trying to "prove" he's a good guy.

[Yosarian2]

CTD: I think the "assasination and abduction" part of the "field agents" job is mostly in relation to outside work, helping Jack and all that. Reading the role, it dosn't sound like a field agent can assasinate or abduct a player in the game.

[Yosarian2]

But yeah, the point about the town telling the field agent who to target was upmost in my mind. If the field agent is pro-town but scummy looking, then the scum probably don't want him dead, so they'll avoid going after the person he's protecting; if the field agent is scum, then the scum can't afford to kill the person he's supposed to be protecting.

However, we can't direct all the field agents; we've got at least 4 people we want to protect (counter-intellegence+3 cryptos, and perhaps others) and only 3 bodyguards to do it, so we'd probably want at least some of the field agents to not annoucne their choices to keep the scum guessing. Which means that not ALL of the field agents can be scummy looking people.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, you seem to focus on odd things when you read my posts. The only way you could possibly think that the focus of my posts has been to prove myself innocent is that either you were suspicious of me from the very beginning for some odd reason or you are simply scum and trying to throw up a smokescreen here.

The reason I think that you've been mostly trying to prove you're a confirmed innocent is because most of your posts look like attempts on your part to create and re-inforce the idea that you and Albert are confirmed innocents. My guess at this point is that you're scum and you're trying to latch onto a pro-town Albert.

In your first real post...

Anyway, yeah having the roles not sent by PM was a big mistake by the mod IMO. I am finding myself agreeing with Albert that anyone posting soon after the thread started is suspicious.

...
How about this idea?

vote: Albert B. Rampage

for director.

We need someone we can trust and he is my pick because I am sure he is in the same boat as me. I had no idea this game had started until I got a prod and it seems he is in the same situation.

Trying to re-inforce the idea that you and albert are confirmed innocents together.

In your next post

3. Which player do you trust least?
The lurking ones. Who haven't posted. At all. Other than that... maybe I don't know. Too early in the game to be certain about things like that.

eyecking was giving me scum vibes from the beginning but this post puts him over the top. Given that the mod didn't send out PM's to townies, that seems like an obvious answer to me as to why players are lurking. But if you DID receive a PM, (as I believe eyecking did) perhaps this would not occur to you. It's also a convenient excuse to deflect suspicion.

FOS: eyecking

Again repeating the idea that all lurkers are pro-town.

I knew I signed up for this game, I just assumed it hadn't started yet because I hadn't received a PM. I don't have any other games going in Coney Island, I think I checked in this forum once to see if 24 was here but it wasn't on the front page at the time, so I just kept waiting for my PM.

An excuse for why you hadn't noticed the game, again trying to convince us you didn't get a PM and are therefore town.

That's quite a fantasy you cooked up there, Yos.

FOS: Yosarian2

Attacking me for daring to question your claim that you are a confirmed pro-town. Very suspicious.

Albert, what convinces you Yos is town? I would be much more comfortable with a director who we are sure is town.

I'm sure Albert is town because we both did not get a PM and found about the game when we got prodded. You say we could have plotted this from the beginning as scum, but from my perspective, I know that didn't happen. So in my book, we're practically a mason group.

Trying to use argument through repition here to convince us that "we are sure" that you and Albert are town. I especally don't like the craplogic here where you call you and Albert a mason group and imply that either you're both scum together or you're both town, when it's certanly possible that he's telling the truth about not noticing and you decided not to post intentionally, or vice versa. Again, I'm thinking that you're scum and Albert is town, and you're trying to latch on to him and buddy up with him.

So, yeah. That's why I think most of your posts are a focused effort to convicne us all that you're a confirmed innocent. It looks to me like that's been your main goal so far, and that makes me distrust you.

[Yosarian2]

Guardian: It's not that I don't want scum to be cops because I think they'll fake results, because they probably wouldn't (although I'm not entierly sure, as the town then wouldn't know if it was the cop or the crypto who faked the results). The main reason I don't want scum to be in our cop positions is for the obveous reason that then the cops wouldn't catch any scum, and would probably just "confirm" people as innocents who the scum were planning on killing anyway.

And I've already explained why I don't trust you at the moment, Guardian; the link between you and Yogurt looks scummy to me.

[Yosarian2]

I think SIA's and the CIA are great for players who are good but under suspicion; they don't get results,

they get codes that go to crypto

. A scum CIA or SIA can't really do much bad, because all they get are codes the go to cryptos.

Note that the mod did warn us also that scum in those roles can fake the codes so the crypto will get bad information.

[Yosarian2]

How does the CIA help us catch scum, exactally?

[Yosarian2]

On the usefuness of the coutnerintellegence agent? It sounds like that he's our main cop; well, either him or the FBI agent. I would definatly put someone I thought was both pro-town and looking like a good scum-hunter there.

The setup Albert suggested is more like what I had in mind, and is basically what I was suggesting from the start. I think the best plan is start out focuing on finding the scum, although we may have to have more people help Jack find the nuclear bomb if that starts to go badly (and, based on the series, it's not likely to go smoothly). And I think the key to doing that is 1 counter-intel, 2 SIA's (which, like I said, sound like trackers to me who can tell us what the scum are telling the mod), 3 cryptos to get all that data, 3 field agents, and 1 FBI liason to act as cop.

And, like I said, the only places in there safe to put people that look suspicious are deputy director, some of the field agents, and perhaps, if needed, the SIA's. (If we're devoting a huge amount of resources to keeping a counter-intel person alive with bodyguards for 4 hours and then keeping the crypto agent alive for 1 hour to decode it, we can't afford to put a scum in that positon who would waste all that time and effort, and we won't want to lynch the counter-intel person half-way though his investigation, so we definatly want to put someone we think is pro-town there.)

[Yosarian2]

Yos: you need to accept the possibility that I simply believe the things I am saying. It seems counter-intuitive for you to believe I am scum because I am trying to look innocent. That is WIFOM to the extreme.

No, not really. It's a matter of motiviation. In any mafia game, the #1 priority of scum is always to not be lynched; in fact, if 1 scum manages to be consdiered a confirmed innocent and last the entire game without being lynched, the town loses. Whereas if you were town, trying to make yourself look confirmed would be a much lower priority; I wouldn't be surprised to see a pro-town person using the argumetns you've used in self defense when in danger of being lynched, but I would not expect a good guy to try to go out of your way to convince us of your innocence before anyone had even questioned it. There's just no real reason to do that at this point, unless you're scum.

[Yosarian2]

With maybe about 3-4 terrorists in the mix, I think it is affordable to have 1 or 2 as cryptos, since all cryptos will confirm eachother once they have decrypted a code.

From what Pooky's said so far, it dosn't seem work that way. 1 SIA or counter-intellegence person sends their info to 1 crypto, and then it takes that 1 crypto a full hour to decode the information. Which means that 1 bad crypto could give us bad intellegence, and we woudln't have any way of knowing if it was the crypto or the SIA/counter intellegence agent doing it.

Its important for at least 1 SIA to be pro-town, so I suggest putting two players that have been going at eachother as SIAs; at least one must be town. We can figure which one if one tries to falsify data.
[/qute]

Perhaps, but only if we trust the cryptos.

[Yosarian2]

I wouldn't be surprised to see a pro-town person using the argumetns you've used in self defense when in danger of being lynched, but I would not expect a good guy to try to go out of your way to convince us of your innocence before anyone had even questioned it. There's just no real reason to do that at this point, unless you're scum.

OK.... but I didn't do that. I said I trusted Albert and UA because they seem to be in the same position as me. You seem to be reading this as me saying, "Trust me!" when really I am just saying I trust these other guys. That's why I said you must have distrusted me from the beginning in order to get this type of read on my posts. You seem to be trying very hard to read between the lines for no good reason here. Just drop your suspicion for a second and it will all be much clearer. I am simply saying what I mean here and you are trying to glean other meanings from it and it is quite frustrating.

(shrug) Well, that's how mafia works, we're all trying to figure out what other people are thinking based on what they are saying. And the impression I got from your posts so far is that you really, REALLY want us to believe that ALL the latecomers MUST be pro-town, which is what I would expect you to do if you intentioanlly decided to come in to the game late in order to prove you're pro-town.

The fact that it never seemed to occur to you that it was possible that ANY of the latecomers might be scum trying to trick us bugs me.

Now, none of that is solid proof you're scum, of course, but you never get solid proof this early in a game.

[Yosarian2]

Still, having said that, him ignoring the difference in status seems like something a pro-town player would do. If he was scum, I'm not sure of the reasoning behind him saying he trusts them, unless they're both his scumbuddies (unlikely). Of course, that dosen't mean the statement didn't seem off.

Eh...scum often try to buddy up with a good guy; they try to tie themselves to the good guy, both to make themselves look good, to get themselves an ally, and to make the good guy look bad later if they get caught. That's what it looks to me like he was doing with Albert.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, off the mark, why do you like Guardian's plan more?

[Yosarian2]

Fuck you if you don't beleive me nobody ever does.I wish I never found this fucking site!!

Holy crap. Dude, it's a game of mafia, no one ever believes ANYONE, that's kind of the entire point of the game.

[Yosarian2]

Ok. Well, let me make a quick list of who I would put into each position if I become director; don't want anyone to be surprised or anything.


Field agents:
Off the Mark
YogurtBandit
Korran

Off the Mark and YogurtBandit I consider to be suspicious. Korran, not so much, actually, but he's also not someone I think the scum want to see dead.

Deputy Director:
Guardian

Like I said, it's not a position where he can do a lot of harm as scum, and if town he wouldn't be a bad director. Just so long as I don't get killed before we figure out his alignment, should be all right. If I do get killed, keep a close eye on him.

FBI liason: Xdaamno

Cop like role; definatly want someone here who active and seems to be already scumhunting. Xdaamno seems like the best choice at the moment.

CounterIntellegence: CrashTextDummie

Definatly want someone here we trust to be pro-town and who is active. Trust is even more important then with the FBI position, as whatever results he has is filtered again and so it'd be harder to prove a scum was fooling with us here, and it takes 4 hours to get an investgation so we don't want someone we'd be lynching halfway through.

Crypto agents:
Albert B. Rampage
???
???

Albert seems pro-town at this point.


So, that leaves the following players for the other two crypto roles and the two SIA roles; I'll have to go back and re-read them before I make any decisions there. And of course I'm open to suggestions (except more demands from Guardian to put him into some key position )

Spambot
Eyceking
UltimaAvalon
ChannelDelibird

[Yosarian2]

Well, to be honest, I want to hear more about this. If the code is something like XYUFsku342fnk, I find it hard to believe that the scum could falsify it meaningfully. Also, whoever was being falsified against would certainly challenge the crypto/SIA, casting doubt onto the message's truthfulness and the crypto/SIA's alignment.

Then Pooky's warning wouldn't make any sense. I would guess that the SIA has the option to change the message the crypto gets in some meaningless way (or perhaps only has that option if the SIA is scum). We'll know more once we actually have someone in that position, but for now, I'm assuming that a scum SIA would be able to fake whatever kind of result he wanted. So then the next hour, the crypto would say "Ok, player X told the mod to kill Y", we'd lynch X, X would be town, and we still wouldn't know if it was the crypto or the SIA messing with us. I'm not even sure if we'd know which SIA sent which message to which crypto, which could mix things up even more.

[Yosarian2]

So, spambot, I was earlier talking about giving out roles and you were one of the people I was undecided on. Do you have any thoughts on that?

[Yosarian2]

Well, honestly, we might or might not be able to spare a bodyguard to protect the director, even if he was confirmed. But yeah, I can certanly understand that either the counter-intellegence guy or the FBI guy might want to check me out, if they suspect me.

I tend to think that the systems analysis guys would probably be better off keeping an eye on people who are sending night choices to the mod, such as field agents; you know, make sure they're doing good pro-town stuff like bodyguarding and not trying to assasinate Jack Bauer or anything like that.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah; it dosn't sound all that useful to me. I'd think that just keeping the cops alive is a higher priority then trying to get the FBI investigation in hour 4 rather then in hour 5.

[Yosarian2]

Could be useful to place suspiscious players. If they're scum they can't do much harm, from what we know.

Well, not to us directly. Some of that stuff could probably screw with Jack Bauer(especally "pardoning a terrorst" and "declaring war" and stuff), but then again, we can listen in on any conversations between them and the mod, and if the FBI or whatever action isn't sped up I'd think we'd notice anyway.

[Yosarian2]

The white house speeding up the FBI, our best cop, is crucial, and I cannot believe that you all are disregarding it. That is ludicrous.

Basically, if the game goes the full 24 hours (which it probably won't), remembering that hour 1 dosn't count, then, if the FBI agent never dies, is lynched, or has to inturrupt an investigation due to the person he was investigation dying or being lynched or being confirmed innocent or something, then without the white house liason, we'd get investigations on:

Hour 5
Hour 9
Hour 13
Hour 17
Hour 21

With the white house liason doing his thing, again assuming that the white house liason dosn't get killed remembering that his ability wouldn't kick in until hour 5, we'd get investagtions on:

Hour 5
Hour 8
Hour 11
Hour 14
Hour 17
Hour 20
Hour 23

So, if everything goes right and nothing is ever disrupted, it's basically 2 or 3 extra investigations; (3 extra if the game goes all the way to hour 23, which I'm thinking it probably won't). If the FBI liason gets intrupted for whatever reason a time or two, then the payoff gets smaller.

Basically, it might be marginally worthwhile in theory to put someone as white house liason in order to get the FBI associate the extra investigations, but that's only if everything goes perfectly, and the scum could screw it up by killing off the white house liason before he's done. I don't think we can afford to put an extra bodyguard to protect him, it'll be hard enough to protect the 2 cops and the 3 cryptos.

[Yosarian2]

OTM, I don't dislike that setup, though I would want someone at white house.

UA, exactly. We need someone at the white house.... Yos, you ignore that FBI could be killed anyways, etc. etc. etc. The white house play is a good one, it should be done in hour one and will benefit us the rest of the game.

Well, the question is, is it worth it having 1 less SIA doing investigations or 1 less bodguard keeping our cops alive in order to get those 2 extra investigations. (shrug) It's a close call. I tend to think the extra bodyguard might be better, but eh, we can try having a white house liason to start the game off with, see how that works.

[Yosarian2]

Simple: take out FBI, put white house. Use ability, then put FBI at hour 5.

Hmm. Well, that's an option, but it would mean we wouldn't get our first FBI investigation until hour 9, after we've already had 3 lynches.

[Yosarian2]

(nods) I agree, eyeking is looking rather scummy and should not get a key role; definatly not going to make him a crypto or a SIA now, too dangerous to have a scumy looking person in either role . Because he looks scummy, and because there is a good argument for having a white house liason, I'm thinking that might be a good place to put him; if he dosn't do what he's supposed to there and speed up the other liason's return time, we'll certanly notice.

So, this was my old list:

Ok. Well, let me make a quick list of who I would put into each position if I become director; don't want anyone to be surprised or anything.


Field agents:
Off the Mark
YogurtBandit
Korran

Off the Mark and YogurtBandit I consider to be suspicious. Korran, not so much, actually, but he's also not someone I think the scum want to see dead.

Deputy Director:
Guardian

Like I said, it's not a position where he can do a lot of harm as scum, and if town he wouldn't be a bad director. Just so long as I don't get killed before we figure out his alignment, should be all right. If I do get killed, keep a close eye on him.

FBI liason: Xdaamno

Cop like role; definatly want someone here who active and seems to be already scumhunting. Xdaamno seems like the best choice at the moment.

CounterIntellegence: CrashTextDummie

Definatly want someone here we trust to be pro-town and who is active. Trust is even more important then with the FBI position, as whatever results he has is filtered again and so it'd be harder to prove a scum was fooling with us here, and it takes 4 hours to get an investgation so we don't want someone we'd be lynching halfway through.

Crypto agents:
Albert B. Rampage
???
???

Albert seems pro-town at this point.


So, that leaves the following players for the other two crypto roles and the two SIA roles; I'll have to go back and re-read them before I make any decisions there. And of course I'm open to suggestions (except more demands from Guardian to put him into some key position )

Spambot
Eyceking
UltimaAvalon
ChannelDelibird

Moving eyeking from a crypto role to a White House Liason role, and we get:


Field agents:
Off the Mark
YogurtBandit
Korran

Deputry:
Guardian

FBI liason:
Xdaamo

Crypto roles:
Albert
Smambot

CounterIntellegence: CrashTextDummie

SIA roles:
UA
CDB

White House Liason:Eyeking

2 cryptos might be enough to start the game out with. We can move a third guy over to a crypto role once we get close to having our first counter-intellegence investigation come back (I don't know from where; but I guess we can figure that out later)

How does that sound to everyone?

[Yosarian2]

Heh..funny simulpost there.

[Yosarian2]

Xdaamo as FBI ? LOL.

Eh? You have a reason for that?

I already explained twice why I think he'd make a good FBI agent; I was looking for someone who was active and ,even more importantly, someone who looked like thwy were scumhunting already, as we're going to need the FBI agent to start his first investigation basically immedeatly I want somone who's already trying to figure out who the scum is. And he has been doing more scumhunting then anyone else, and I also tend to agree with many of his points. Here's some examples:

Alright, I think I get this? It's definitely different is what it is. Anyway...

In case anybody is wondering this is because the general consensus is that he is the strongest player. I have no idea having very little experience and I'm willing to go with what the majority feel is in their best interest. I'm willing to take the risk that he might be scum in the hope of a bigger pay off that he is a strong pro-town leader.

I don't like your sheep-ness here; many scum do this to pass the blame if something goes wrong. You should make your own mind up

YogurtBandit - You're pushing hard to be a Liason. Care to explain why? Also, what makes you think Guardian's the right choice for Director?

Eh, Seems like a cool position to be in.Guardian is like, cool. I mean, I'd know if he was scum, and he's not scum. I can just tell. We're cool like that. For real. 8)

This kind of thing is why I don't particularly want guardian the the chair...

Guardian, OMGUS is baaaad

It's just all your posts seem to be atleast slightly fishy, but I can't really pin it on anything.

I find OTM's reasoning a litte strange there too. He should atleast of been able to see the argument from our POV in that Albert and UA aren't confirmed as trust-able at this stage in the game. He seemed to ignore the fact that his status dosen't correlate to the other's statuses.

Still, having said that, him ignoring the difference in status seems like something a pro-town player would do. If he was scum, I'm not sure of the reasoning behind him saying he trusts them, unless they're both his scumbuddies (unlikely). Of course, that dosen't mean the statement didn't seem off.

All I did is vote for him because he was the only one I sort of knew.I don't know who is the best to be director.to me it could be anyone.

I seriously think you all should stop buggin Korran about this. I mean hes sort of new, And hes just trying to pick a familiar face. Yeah Korran could be scum but Its not likely.

'He's sort of new' isn't a good enough excuse, really.

And what do you mean it's not likely? How do you know he's not likely to be scum? And even so, we can't just assume he's town off the bat.

Anyway, guardian's once again jumping players with no good evidence from my POV. IGMEOY *twisted*

In general, Xdaamno has been doing more scumhunting then most people; he's been one of the more active players, and his posts look to me like he's honestly looking for scum, and doing it in a way that looks logical to me, so I think he'd make a good cop, at least if he's town.

If you'd like to explain why you don't trust him, Albert, I'd be glad to hear it. Same with CrashTestDummies.

[Yosarian2]

That goes for you too, OTM. Why don't you trust Xdaamno? Your attack on him feels a big OMGUSy to me.

[Yosarian2]

Well, I can't say I really agree with that. Many of the things that you seem to think are scummy (Attacking Guardian, "bullying" Korran) are actually thing I tend to see as good scum-hunting; I agreed with most of his attacks on Guardian, for example, and putting pressure on a newer player to get a reaction is also a quite useful way to find scum. And I'm not sure why the early joke post is scummy.

I'd also like to hear why you think CTD is scummy; I'm not sure I see that either.

As for a no-vote; do you mean a no-lynch vote? Well, we basically get 1 lynch every 3 "hours". If we lynch in the first hour, we might get more lynches in total, but I could see how it might be better to wait until hour 2 or 3 if the extra conversation or whatever improves our odds of lynching scum.

[Yosarian2]

Actually, Albert, if you looked at my posts, I was planning on putting you in a Crypto position, which is perhaps the MOST important place to put people we think are pro-town. A scum in an FBI position would be in great danger if he tried to fake his one investigation; a scum in a crypto position could give us incorrect results for investigations much more easily, and it'd be very hard to prove it was him faking the investigations or giving us the wrong results.

[Yosarian2]

Ah, I see. They posted early, so you think they're scum that got PM'd?

I guess that's possible, but it's just as likely they just saw the game open up. I know I always glance at all the game forums whenever log onto the site, because I'm playing in games in all 4 forums, so I'm wouldn't be surprised if they also noticed the game thread right away.

[Yosarian2]

@yos: What are your thoughts on SpamBot ?

(shrug) He's posted some good content over the last few days. I've got a fairly good pro-town feeling about him at the moment.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, my plan is to have 3 players of completely unsure alignment as cryptos and 2 players of completely unsure alignment as SIAs so the scum won't know exactly who the information will be sent to.

If there is one player that is more trusted than another among SIA/crypto, then there is only need for 1 SIA/crypto, with 1 field agent protecting both.

Wait...what?

If we're suspicious of the cryptos, and we're suspicious of the SIA's, then when a crypto says "I got a message, I'm not sure from where, but it says Albert told the mod to kill Yosarian last night", does the town believe him? If the town does, and Albert gets lynched, and he was town, then what? How do you know if it was the crypto lying, or one of the SIA's sending bad messages? And you don't really want the town to end up in a situation where they have to lynch a crypto who might still have more info he hasn't yet decoded anyway.

We do NOT want scummy looking people to be cryptos or SIA's.

[Yosarian2]

Albert: Are you talking to me? Because with 2 SIA agents, 1 counter-intellegence agent, and apparently other coded messages coming in from Jack Bauer, 1 crypto is not enough. It takes a full hour for a crypto to decode a message, so if you only have 1 crypto, he gets loaded down with at least 2 messages from the 2 SIA's hour one, and if you still have only 1 crypto, he'll get at least 2 more messages from them hour 2. And he can only decode one an hour, so he's get a huge backload of messages very quickly, and I'm not sure he would ever catch up. At the very least, it would be a long time before we got all that info.

[Yosarian2]

You can only send encrypted data to one crypto, why would you have 3 cryptos ?

If there is multiple amounts of encrptyed Data.

And how will you ensure the safety of the data ?

If you only have 1 crypto and 2 SIA, he won't be able to decode the data fast enough to keep up, and we just won't GET all the data.

It is true that multiple cryptos will be harder to protect, but it's a risk we're going to have to take if we want to actually make any use of the investigations.

[Yosarian2]

What makes you think SIAs will capture something every single hour ?

Hmm. Don't they get a result every hour? The mod did say they receive all transmissions from the targeted player, which I was assuming meant that so long as the SIA is watching he gets a report every hour.

Although, now that I think about it, it could be that they only get a result when the watched player sends a transmission, or even multiple results in an hour if the person asks the mod multiple questions in an hour. That could be really ugly, if it means that a person who asks the mod 10 questions in an hour means the crypto has to spend 10 hours to decode them all.

mod:could you clarify how that works, exactally? Does the SIA send stuff to the crypto once per hour?

[Yosarian2]

In any case, though, as nearly everyone has to send an action choice to the mod during the first hour, I would expect the SIA's to get one report each during the first hour.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian, your setup is terrible. Mafia will probably only contact the mod to send in their NK, which can happen anywhere between hour 1 and 5, with 11 possible suspects, watching 2 players will not amount to many intercepts.

There should be ONE, and only ONE cryptologist at hour 1.

No, almost everyone will probably send moves to the mod during hour 1. Remember, SIA's aren't just good for catching mafia doing nightkills; every single power role, including field agents and the white house liason, has several different abilites. An SIA agent can keep an eye on them, make sure they're doing something protown, make sure the field agents and such are actually protecting someone and not trying to use their other abilites for some scummy purpose. So I would think we're going to want both SIA's to record info and send it to cryptos every hour.

[Yosarian2]

In any case, though, as nearly everyone has to send an action choice to the mod during the first hour, I would expect the SIA's to get one report each during the first hour.

What ? Why would they send in actions the first hour ?

Why wouldn't they? Why wouldn't a field agent start protecting someone hour 1, a cop start investigation someone hour 1, ect? The only people who don't have a night action are the director, the deputy director, and the cryptos, I believe. Everyone else has several different actions they could take, and which action they DO take could tell us a lot about their alignment.

[Yosarian2]

Any action they do take will be known to us by the result of it a few hours later anyway. All we are concerned with is terrorists contacting the mod to send in terrorist actions, which can happen whenever. I'm not disagreeing with 2 SIA, I'm disagreeing with more than 1 crypto.

What makes you think that any action the field agents do would be known to us a few hours later anyway? The only way we'd know if a field agent wasn't doing what he was supposed to is if the person he was supposed to be protecting got killed. Otherwise, we'd only know if the mod told us specifically, and I don't imagine he would. Now, sure, if the white house liason did something he wasn't supposed to do, we would find out eventually, but by that point he might have already started a war or something; be better to catch him in the act and lynch him before he finishes the action in that case.

Yes, one of the big advanatages to the SIA's is that they can spot if somone sends in a kill order to the mod, but they can get us other information to, and I can't see why we wouldn't want them to.

And if we've got 2 SIA's sending in regular reports, we're going to need more then 1 crypto, right?

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) Well, if people don't trust me yet to discuss bodyguard targets in private, we could just assign one to the FBI agent, one to the CIA agent, and let Korran (who is the most pro-town looking of the 3 bodyguards, IMHO) pick one of the 2 cryptos on his own. Not perfect protection, butshould be pretty safe for the moment.

The set-up for roles I sent in is the exact same one I said I would do yesterday; I know there were some people conserned about Xdammo, but like I said, I liked the way he was scumhunting yesterday; both made him look pro-town to me and made me think he'd be a good cop. Hopefully I'm not wrong about this one.

Anyway, time is very limited here, hour 1 is only 3 days long. We need to both very quickly figure out all the stratigic stuff, and simultaiously start thinking about who we want to lynch. We don't necessarally need to lynch someone during hour 1, but the sooner the better.

[Yosarian2]

I think that monitoring the players is a better option, because I'm not entirely sure how monitoring a faction would help us or what information we would get from it.

(shrug) I assume if we figure out what faction is planning on setting off the bomb, it'll be easier for Jack Bauer to go after them.

[Yosarian2]

On another note, as CTU director, I can apparently send instructions to Jack Bauer, telling him where to go and stuff like that. I don't have any idea what to tell him to do at the moment; anyone has any ideas, or if anyone gets any intellegence, let me know. If you want to discuss something with me in private, just ask and I'll invite you into my office.

[Yosarian2]

And I want confirmation from Yos/whoever about whether you guys want my investigation result tonight immediatly or not.

It'll take you 4 hours to finish. After you finish, it's your call; if you find a confirmed innocent and don't want to reveal it right away, you could tall me. Try to find a scum though; I don't think we can afford to go the "confirm several innocents and find the scum by process of elimination" path this game, scum could do too much damage in the mean time. I'm assuming you get the result yourself, and it dosn't have to go to a crypto?

Albert: Protecting the cryptos is important, but I was thinking that even more important is keeping the cops alive for the 4 hours it'll take for them to get their results, at least for the moment. After the counter-intellegence guy sends his first result in to a crypto, priorities might change.

By the way, I'm going to be busy for the next day or two, might not be able to get on. Normally, being away for that short a period of time wouldn't even be worth mentioning on mafiascum, but I figured it'd be worth saying here. For example, I probably won't have time to call all 3 field agents into my office during hour 1, I'm afraid, assuming I have to do each one seperatly. For the moment, I'd say Off The Mark should protect the FBI agent, Yogurt should protect the counterintellegence agent, and Korran pick one of the cryptos on his own (and not say who in thread, obv) and protect him. Sound good?

[Yosarian2]

And I want confirmation from Yos/whoever about whether you guys want my investigation result tonight immediatly or not.

It'll take you 4 hours to finish. After you finish, it's your call; if you find a confirmed innocent and don't want to reveal it right away, you could tall me. Try to find a scum though; I don't think we can afford to go the "confirm several innocents and find the scum by process of elimination" path this game, scum could do too much damage in the mean time. I'm assuming you get the result yourself, and it dosn't have to go to a crypto?

Albert: Protecting the cryptos is important, but I was thinking that even more important is keeping the cops alive for the 4 hours it'll take for them to get their results, at least for the moment. After the counter-intellegence guy sends his first result in to a crypto, priorities might change.

By the way, I'm going to be busy for the next day or two, might not be able to get on. Normally, being away for that short a period of time wouldn't even be worth mentioning on mafiascum, but I figured it'd be worth saying here. For example, I probably won't have time to call all 3 field agents into my office during hour 1, I'm afraid, assuming I have to do each one seperatly. For the moment, I'd say Off The Mark should protect the FBI agent, Yogurt should protect the counterintellegence agent, and Korran pick one of the cryptos on his own (and not say who in thread, obv) and protect him. Sound good?

[Yosarian2]

It's true that lynching a townie means we have 1 less role filled, but not lynching a scum could be worse, as nearly all the roles in the game are dangerous in the wrong hands.

Like I said, we might not want to lynch during hour 1 unless we have a really good suspect, but we should start thinking about it; if we don;t lynch during hour 2 or 3, we start both losing lynches and we start making the lynches/nightkills ratio worse for the town.

If we're focusing on the "find the scum" win condition, we probably don't want to wait to long to start lynching.

[Yosarian2]

So I go ahead and send PM to pressurise the FBI Liaison, right? I didn't see you confirm that's what you want, Director Yos.

Yeah, start pressuring to speed up the FBI liason.

[Yosarian2]

I also don't like how Guardian's trying to direct the cops here, as he's still high on my suspicious list. Perhaps I'm being paranoid, but I'm wondering if he's hoping to get the cops to waste their investigation on me because he's planning on killing me anyway and become director.

But, whatever; cops, investigate whoever you want. We might not get all that many investigations, so you guys need to make each one count, and if at least one of you finds scum that'll make our second lynch nice and easy. It's probably best, in fact, if cops DON'T announce who they are/aren't investigating, because that kind of information makes it easier for scum to figure out who they're going to kill.

[Yosarian2]

Yos - wants to be director a lot. Says he has evidence that he always does this, doesn't. Initially comes up with some things that are subtly anti-town (the not using the white house thing, for instance), but then moves away from them when people disagree. Tie with Xdam? puts him as director.

Using the white house guy or not is a close call. We're going to have to move some people around over the next few hours as people start to die or get lynched, and keeping someone in a position that dosn't do anything directly, and keeping him there until hour 5, is iffy, for a possible long-term payoff, is not as obveous a choice as you try to make it sound. Honestly, I didn't change my mind because of your arguments; I changed my mind mostly because eyeking started looking suspicious to me, and as I didn't want him to be a crypto or a SIA agent I didn't really have anywhere else safe to put him.

Xdam - opposes everyone but Yos for director, gets powerful role because of it. Not a lot of theory contributions. Not great reasons for not supporting others over Yos.

Bull. I explained why I made him a cop; it's because he did good scum-hunting in the pre-game, which is what I was looking for as we really want our cops to nail a scum fast. Perhaps he didn't have as many theory contrabutions as scum, but he was one of the most active people during hour zero, and I think scumhunting's much more important in a cop then game theory, don't you?

He supported me over you for dictator because you've been looking scummy, and he explained why in great detail. It's also a complete misrepresentation to say that he "opposed anyone but Yos for dictator" or the he got a powerful role "because" he supported me; many other people were supporting me from the beginning of the game, wheras he didn't vote for me until much later, and for a while he supported Crashtext instead of me.

You've been attacking him ever since he started attacking you've given quite terrible reasons why. And now you're pretty blatently just making stuff up that has no basis in the thread.

Albert - suggesting horribly anti-town ideas, interactions with Yos, possibly faked late appearance.

Sure, I disagree with many of his stratagy ideas. However, my opinion of him is the same one you yourself stated several pages ago:

perfect position for him. Town, but doesn't really know what's what imo

What, exactally, has changed your opinion since then? Or are you just throwing whatever you can at the wall to see if it sticks?

You know what, this entire post of Guardian's been full of paranoia and OMGUS attacks against people who doubted him earlier in the game. This, combined with his scummy day zero behavior, his intense desire to be dictator and to attack anyone who got in his way, and his attempt to direct the cops earlier today (most likely in order to get them to not target HIM or one of his buddies) has convinced me he's probably scum.

vote:Guardian

.

If we lynch now or during hour 2, we get another lynch by hour 5 when the cop investigations start coming in. That's probably the best bet at this point.

[Yosarian2]

Eh, w/e, just don't lynch me while I'm gone.

Sorry you're going to be out of town, Guardian, but I don't think I can afford to let someone I think is scum hang around until hour, what, 3 or 4? just because you're out of town.

[Yosarian2]

You think He's scum but put him at a high postision? Either Thats Scum distancing, Or Framing somone, or Just Plain dumb.

Vote:Yosarian2

Did you read my posts yesterday, Yogurt?

Strange as it may sound, I'd also be tempted to make Guardian assistant director, in the hopes that if he is scum we might be able to get an investigation on him before the director dies and lynch him if he's scum, and a scum assistant director can't really do any harm on his own; and OTOH, if he turns out to not be scum Guardian might not be a bad director. He's at least active and thinking about stratagy.

Deputy Director:
Guardian

Like I said, it's not a position where he can do a lot of harm as scum, and if town he wouldn't be a bad director. Just so long as I don't get killed before we figure out his alignment, should be all right. If I do get killed, keep a close eye on him.

Deputy Director is a position that needs to be filled, and it's also a position that dosn't actually do anything, so if Guardian is scum he can't do any harm there at the moment. Granted if I get killed he'll become director, but hopefully before that happens we'll have a better idea of his alignment.

And you didn't disagree with those points at all yesterday, Yogurt. If you didn't like the idea of putting someone scummy as Deputy Director, you should have said so THEN, rather then not disagreeing with me at all when I repeated that several times yesterday and now suddenly acting like it's scummy for me to have done what I said I would do.

[Yosarian2]

Wow...it's hour 2 already? Geez.

Listen, I haven't sent any orders to Jack Bauer yet, so I guess that means he's still sitting around in the white house, unless he's gone off and done his own thing without orders (which wouldn't surprise me). I can tell him to move or to go kill bad guys or whatever, but I guess we first have to figure out what part of the city the nuclear bomb is in?

[Yosarian2]

I don't really know how that works; Pooky just sent me a map of DC and told me I can tell Jack to move or whatever.

Here, here's the map of DC Pooky sent me.

http://dcpages.com/Tourism/Maps/Washington_DC_Map/

[Yosarian2]

Huh...I just noticed that the mod is now listing Jack Bauer's location as "unknown". That's interesting, I haven't sent him any orders yet so I have no idea. If the show's any guide, we might be better off just letting him go off and do his thing rather then trying to direct him, at least until we get some intellegence about some of the sites or some of the terrorist groups or something.

[Yosarian2]

Hmm...interesting. Out of those groups listed in the second post, I guess the two islamic groups'd be most likely to target an oil tanker leaving the persian gulf for terrorism, right? That'd be Al-quaeda and Hezbola.

[Yosarian2]

@Yos

It makes no sense that in this day and age, a ship exploding in the middle of the ocean limits the cause to a local group. Just because it happened in the Indian Ocean, doesn't mean it could've only been a Middle-Eastern Terrorist Group, especially since that narrows it from 10 to 2 in the 2nd hour.

Well, no, it dosn't prove anything, but Pooky did mention that the ship was currently "en route from the Persian Gulf", so I guessed that it might be a group based there.

I don't know. It certanly could be a red herring. But then again, I'm not sure if it's that improbable for us to be "supposed" to figure out which terrorist group is involved pretty early in the game; I suppose that info would somehow help, but it dosn't exactally tell us where the bomb is.

[Yosarian2]

Someone investigate Hezbolla - how do we do that?

Well, one of the SIA agent's abilities is to listen in on all communications from one of the terrorist groups. If Hezbolla are the ones planning to set off the bomb, I imagine that might give us some useful intel, either intel on people at CTU working for them or intel on where the bomb is or something like that.

[Yosarian2]

EBWOP: Yosarian, why did you get a crypto when we didn't have any results? 1 hour to change positions isn't that much.

I figured the SIA's would be sending results to the cryptos every hour. If that's not true, then perhaps we can go from 2 down to 1 crypto, but we definatly can't go under that. Remember, there has to be a crypto when people SEND results, or else they can't send them. Also, the mod hinted cryptos might be getting results send in from Jack and we don't want to miss any of that.

But if the cryptos aren't doing anything, I guess we could transfer one of them to a different position for the moment...let me take a look and see what open positions there are at the moment

[Yosarian2]

Hmmm...I guess I could put one of the cryptos into one of the other liason positions. The NSA might be good, "domestic satalite recon" sounds like it might help us find out about certain locations. Only problem with doing that is, because all liason positions take 4 hours to do anything, we wouldn't want to transfer them back to crypto later, and we might have to move a SIA or a bodyguard over instead when it comes time to get all the data.

[Yosarian2]

Sure.

Albert, i would like to see you in my office

Now, I believe you can just PM me; is that correct mod?

Also, do I have to kick Albert out of my office before I can privatly talk to someone else? Is that right?

[Yosarian2]

And...um...Yogurt, thanks for the information, but yeah, I had wanted you to protect the Counter-intel agent.

[Yosarian2]

Speaking of which, where is our counter-intel agent? CTD's been lurking for a while.

CTD, can you confirm you've started an investigation, at least? If not, I might have to put someone else in that position, as can not afford to have one of our cops sitting around doing nothing.

[Yosarian2]

As for the lynching thing, I still agree that Guardian and Yogurt look scummy. Anyone know what the current vote-count is?

[Yosarian2]

Yogurt - aren't you supposed to be protecting someone? Are you claiming that Yos2 gave you different orders? Talk about a useless investigation - the Jefferson memorial? Next time try something with - you know - important people in it, instead of a tourist site.

Heh...that is a good point. I mean, I guess the nuke COULD have been hidden in the Jefferson Memorial, but that'd be pretty silly, what with all the tourists and stuff hanging out there all day.

[Yosarian2]

They Cant kill yet...

Umm...why do you say that, Yogurt?

[Yosarian2]

I'm not really sure what to think about Yogurt's recent behavior. It's certanly not pro-town, but I'm having trouble seeing what he stands to gain from it. Unless he know his scum mates are about to kill the person he's supposed to protect, and he's trying to set up a pre-emptive defense here?

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, agreed. We can deal with his buddy Guardian afterwards; it's already hour 3, time is quite short here.

unvote:guardian

vote:Yogurt

[Yosarian2]

Well, that's worrying...

I was just told by the mod that someone here at CTU just tried to hack into the director's personal computer, and specifically into the director's e-mail and personell file. I'm not sure what that means; whatever they were trying to do, it apparenlty wasn't sucessfull this time.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I started an investigation back in Hour 1.

Ok, good. Just checking.

Since you didn't bother explaining this apparent knowledge, I'm gonna assume it was a scum-slip.

Vote: YogurtBandit

Yeah, I was wondeirng about that myself.

[Yosarian2]

Albert was thew onl yone with acsess.

All the PM I got said was that it must have been someone in the building, in CTU headquarters. I don't see any reason to assume that the person had to be invited into my office.

[Yosarian2]

I don't think we get to find out his alliance.

And we can call him back into play at a later date, if I understand it right. Kind of like the way people seem to be wrongly arrested in every season then when they discover uh oh, it was someone else, the arrested person comes back.

Is this right??

I think that's only if we have the FBI arrest someone for us; then we don't find out their alignment but we can get them back later if we want. If we lynch someone, I think they're dead and we find out their alignment.

[Yosarian2]

Hmm. Good point, Albert. That might be a good idea. Not sure who I would re-assign, though; don't have a lot of options here. I'd guess it'd have to be either one of the SIA's or one of the cryptos, and I don't really want to do either.

Until we do, OTM, I suggest that you pick one of the two cops and protect them, and don't say which one. (Don't want to let the scum know which cop is protected)

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, agreed Albert, I'd like to hear from Korran as well.

I guess I could tell one of the SIA agents to send over whatever new info he has to one of the cryptos ASAP and then make him a field agent after he sends his info over. Either of you guys willing to voulenteer for field work?

Or else I could make one of them into deputy director and send guardian to be a field agent, I guess.

[Yosarian2]

Sure, OTM.

Off The Mark, can you see me in my office please?

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and repeat myself - why in hell did we lynch YB? I don't like OTM or Yos2 right now, as pro town.

Dude, just because you for some reason feel obliaged to ALWAYS defend Yogurt in any game you're in with him...

[Yosarian2]

On another note, if we want to lynch again on hour 6, we've only got about 7 days left to figure out who. Granted we'll get some investigative results before then, but if the cops don't find scum, we don't want to be all "duh, what do we do now".

[Yosarian2]

Lol...I think you're the "one of the investigative agents" he was talking about Xdaamo.

Anyway, I've got no problem with a field agent telling me who he's protecting; at least that way, if the field agent suddenly dies, we might have an idea of who the scum were trying to kill. Unless they killed the field agent to make us think that, of course, but again I don't see why they would if they don't know who he was supposed to be protecting.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, sorry spambot; I guess I had missed your request to talk in my office.

Anyway, we don't really know if the scum did anything at all hour 2 anyway, so I didn't expect much from those results. When we get the hour 3 results, when they tried to hack my computer, we might be more lucky.

[Yosarian2]

Um. This is probably bad, guys. Apparently, whoever it was has tried to hack into my computer again, and this time they have succeeded. I was told that they will be able to issue 3 orders in my name using my email account, and that I will not be able to countermand them until hour 5. So if anyone gets any wierd orders from the mod that are supposed to have come from me, just ignore them, ok?

[Yosarian2]

Dude, I have no idea what it means. What I'm really worried about is they might be using the director's e-mail to send orders to Jack Bauer or something.

[Yosarian2]

Well, nothing really useful, most of it seems like just flavor. It's similar to the PM I got last hour, that someone here at CTU has hacked in to the director's personal computer, including my e-mail account and the personell files, and that they'll be able to send out 3 orders in my name. As for what that means, your guess is as good as mine.

[Yosarian2]

I wonder will his location remain unknown?

Well, the mod did tell me that if Jack gets into a gunfight, we'll all find out about it, where and when and how it happened, because it'll be on CNN.

[Yosarian2]

Yos -- did you order this??

No, I didn't send any orders in.

I'm not surprised they apparently gave Jack a bad order from my e-mail account, but I didn't realize they'd be able to order personell changes. Looks like they sent one e-mail to jack, and with their other two emails, they ordered a switch of Guardian and CTD's positions, and switched Xdaamo and eyeking's positions.

I was worried that with the town having so many cops and trackers that the scum might have some kind of roleblocker, but this is just devistating; looks like they managed to disrupt everything. Did any of the three of you finish your jobs? Eyeking, did you manage to speed up the FBI thing?

I wonder if this is why they haven't killed yet; perhaps if they hack, they can't kill during that 4 hour period?

Anyway, I'll send in the order to change the rolls back during this hour, which probably means they'll be back to the way they were by hour 6. Unless anyone has any better ideas of what we want the rolls to be; if we want to make any changes, this would be the time to do it.

[Yosarian2]

If you make changes again, it will take even longer...

True, but I'm not sure I'm willing to accept the roles the scum picked for us. I mean, they might have put you in the cop role because they want you there, or it could be just to make you look bad. Same with Xdaamo and the deputy director role; the paranoid part of my brain was worried when I first saw that that perhaps Xdaamo is a scum and they were hoping to frame me, get me lynched next hour and make Xdaamo director, but after seeing the way he reacted I don't think that's the case; it's probably more likely that he's pro-town and they're just trying to make him look bad.

But still, three people just got moved into key roles by the scum (You, xdaamo, and eyeking), and while that was probably just to disrupt the three 4 hour actions, it does make me nervous. Or, again, the scum could just be trying to play us all off against each other here.

My gut reaction would be to either move everyone back, or perhaps to move you, Xdaamo, and CTD back and make eyeking a third field agent.

[Yosarian2]

Good point; I know Korran said his computer broke down, but then he hasn't posted for a week since then.

[Yosarian2]

Hmm. I guess I could, but if we wanted to keep 2 cryptos I'd have to move someone else to crypto then, and it's probably be eyeking at this point.

Albert and Spambot: how many messages have you guys been getting? Do you think we need 2 cryptos?

[Yosarian2]

Well, if we wanted to do a re-shuffle, this would be the time.

Albert, out of curiosity (and because I think you're probably pro-town; if nothing else, I can't imagine a scum wanting to be transfered from a crypto position to a field agent position), who do you think should go in what role now?

[Yosarian2]

I want Yos's complete explanation. Who is the "they" who hacked your computer. Now.

I told you everything I knew when I reported on the hacking before, Guardian. All I know is that it must have been someone here at CTU who did the hacking.

[Yosarian2]

o.O!? He knows exactly who hacked his computer? Maybe I

do

[i/]

need to do the re-read I promised. No skating by for me .

...um...what?

[Yosarian2]

On another note, I was thinking about this at work today, and we really don't want to miss or delay any lynches.

Right now, we have at most 7 lynches left.

Hour 6
Hour 9
Hour 12
Hour 15
Hour 18
Hour 21
Hour 24

So, we have at most 7 lynch chances to catch 3 scum. That's not bad odds. However, if we lose even 1 hour anywhere along the way, (say, by waiting until hour 7 to lynch) then we're doing to 6 chances to lynch 3 scum, and the more we delay the worse our odds get.

[Yosarian2]

Well, I think the only way Jack has of contacting us, Off The Mark, is by sending coded messages to the cryptos. I can tell you that the order would have come from my own e-mail account, though, as I was told that the my computer was hacked and 3 orders were sent from my e-mail account in my name. If Jack manages to somehow figure out any more then that, perhaps he'll contact us. I donno.

Anyway, there are several unrelated issues I want to persue here, so I'm goign to seperate them with lines rather then make like a quadriple post here.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


First of all, Guardian, when you do your re-read, one thing I would specifically like you to adress is the case I laid out against you in post 555, back on page 23. The only response you ever made to the case I laid out against you and the vote I made for you was that my argument was "not obveously flawed". I realize you were on vacation and perhaps have time to respond fully, but if you could respond now I'd appriciate it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Second of all, at the moment, I'm thinking of sending the following orders in to put the positions back. Only change is that I'm going to make another field agent, and take away the white house position.

So, what I'm thinking of is:
Xdaamo back to FBI liason
CTD back to counter-intel
And out of Guardian and Eyeking, I'm going to make one deputy director and the other one a field agent. I'm leaning towards eyeking as deputy director and guardian as field agent, but have not made up my mind yet. Anyone has any other suggestions, I'd like to hear them, but soon; have to make sure I get the new orders in before the end of hour 5.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And on an unrelated note

off the mark, can I see you in my office, please?

In reference to what we were discussing the other day.

[Yosarian2]

Hmm. Good to know.

Now that we know that, I think I'm definatly not making Guardian a field agent.

So I'm thinking
Xdaamo as FBI
CTD as counter-intel
Guardian as deputy director
and Eyeking as the 3rd field agent

Any other thoughts before I send this in?

[Yosarian2]

Yos, you really want me to address that? *grumble grumble*

Yes, as I expained in that post several reasons I suspect you, and you never responded to it other then to kind of agree with it in a wierd way, I certanly would like you to adress that.

Yos2 is highly suspect as well. I don't buy the explanation. I think he was being investigated, I think he knew he would turn up scum, and I think he pulled this as a last ditch effort to survive.

(shrug) You can think whatever you want. I've told you what I know

I will say one thing; your theory that I faked the whole thing just to stop Xdaamo's investigation of me has one very large hole in it.

During hour 4, Off The Mark had told me he was protecting CTD, not Xdaamo. There was no one protecting Xdaamo during that time. If was a scum who had wanted to stop Xdaamo's investigation of me, I could have just killed him.

Also, some subtle pro-scum game theory:
-We don't want to "make use of all our lynches" if we aren't feeling good about anyone as scum. If we have only 6 people left at hour 21, with 2 (arbitrary number) of them scum, how in hell are we going to keep Jack alive?

Look, I still think our best chance of winning this is to lynch all of the scum before we run out of time. If it gets to hour 24, and we haven't lynched all the scum, and we haven't somehow gotten Jack to disarm the bomb, we lose. And frankly, as of yet, we've gotten absolutly no actionable intellegence to help Jack out, and Jack's already been hurt. If anyone's got any ideas of what we can do to help us reach the "disarm the bomb" win condition, speak up, but I'm not going to count on it at the moment.

Meanwhile, all the scum have to do in order to win is to keep one of them alive long enough to run out the clock, and then they win. I think that's probably what they're trying to do, in fact; that would explain why they're hacking and disrupting us instead of killing us.

If we fail to make use of all our lynching chances, if we only get 5, or 4, or whatever lynches off before hour 24, what do you think the odds are of us catching all the scum on time? If we play it your way, if we take it safe and easy and only lynch when we're sure, sure, there might still be 7 or 8 people left late in the game, but if 1 of them is scum, and we don't find him in time, we lose.

-The White house was OBV OBV speed up the FBI -- and you almost didn't want us to do it. Wtf? With a sped up FBI, we will profit much more now.

Ok, I already responded to this in the post I asked you to respond to earlier, and you've still ignored. And your case here is even weaker now, as the scum apparently have the ability to disrput long-term actions like the white house thing (like they just did).

-Also, assuming which terrost groups did it is highly suspect. UA pointed this out right quick, and kudos for that -- Yos could have been misleading us here.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm trying to speculate and figure stuff out based on the hints the mod has been giving us in the thread. If we want to help Jack, it's pretty obveous from the mod's posts that at some point we're going to want to figure out which group is behind the planning, and I can only think that the two mod reports of other terrorist activity (the oil tanker thing, and the spy satalite thing) are supposed to be some kind of hint to help us figure out stuff.

Again, you're big on critisizing, but I'm just trying to figure out stuff here. Do you have any better ideas on what's going on here?

Also, I cannot believe no-one brought this up in my absence -- SIA's SHOULD target the deputy. Deputy = potentially scummy player. I have had NO PM communication with the mod or anyone else all game. If someone had been monitoring that, I would be cleared by now, .

That's really, really dumb, Guardian.

The only thing the SIA's detect are communicatiosn sent from a player to a mod. And I'm sure that any reasonably intellegent scum group that you were a part of would have had someone lower key send in any scum actions, not someone that everyone is as suspicious of as you.

Besides, just earlier in this post, you were trying to claim that I made up the whole "hacking" thing. If that were true, then it would appear that the scum haven't done ANYTHING yet this game, so how would that "clear" you anyway? In fact, I think this "Oh, if a SIA's been watching me that would clear me!" line was a slip; it sounds like you know that the hacking thing DID happen, and you also know it was one of your scum-buddies and not you who did it.

I also think that you're trying to get the SIA's to say who they are targeting, so you and your scum buddies know which one of you should send in orders in the future.

fos:Guardian

UA should be in an investigative role -- CIA or FBI. The man is town. Korran should be crypto -- also town.

Um...Korran has been lurking for most of the game. I'm not sure how you can claim to have a read on him, and I'm also not sure how you think it's a good idea to have a crypto who's apparenlty completly vanished, and thus is unlikely to either decode anything or share any results with us if he did.

And you were accusing me of suggesting anti-town stratagy. Hah. Basically every piece of stratagy advice you just gave, from "let's make the lurker a crypto" to "let's not use all of our lynches!" seemes designed to help the town lose.

vote:Guardian

[Yosarian2]

Lmao you fell for that ?

Both CTD and Xdaamo were investigating Yos, killing Xdaamo wouldn't do shit.

...why would CTD be investigating me? Xdaamo said in thread during hour 1 that he was investigating me, I'd hope they wouldn't both be investigating the same person, that would be a waste.

And what makes you think he was investigating me, anyway? He never said anything like that in thread.

[Yosarian2]

Um, dude, you're not making any sense.

"Don't fish for info"? You just blatently stated that CTD was investigating me; and not only that, you stated it as if it was a completly obveous fact, which it clearly is not. I was assuming you'd just misread the thread somehow, although if you're now trying to say you had info to say otherwise because you're a crypto, fine.

As far as I know, the only person investigating me was Xdaamo; and I can't imagine why CTD would be investgating me, as Xdaamo annoucned in thread he was doing so and as CTD never expressed any suspicious of me. If he was, I'd like to hear the reasoning from him behind that move.

Besides, even if you did know who CTD was investigating, what the hell would I have to gain by "fishing" for that now?

[Yosarian2]

I wanted to see his reaction.

But CTD was investigating someone, and that person could have easily been one of the terrorists. Assassinating Xdaamno would not be as beneficial as canceling all the jobs at the same time.

Well, perhaps, in the short term anyway. Which is probably why the terorists hacked me. I was just pointing out that Guardian's claim that "Yos is just doing this to protect himself from Xdaamo's investigation" argument is flawed.

[Yosarian2]

Maybe CTD is investigating scum too, maybe there is an SIA on Yos or other scum, we just don't know.

Um, that dosn't make any sense either, because the changes the hackers made didn't do anything to interfere with the SIA's or the cryptos, Guardian. We'll still get all the information from them.

[Yosarian2]

You couldn't send in a kill because of who the SIAs were targeting -- that was what I meant by that option -- make sense now?

Huh? No, that really dosn't make any sense at all. Could you clarify?

OTM -- I really don't think he's town. If he is though, and has genuine suspicion of me, if he gets lynched that will be confirmed town suspicion. I don't feel up to responding right now because I think he's scum and I don't like the case at all, but I'm sure there are "flaws" in my counter-arguments and it will start this back and forth that I'm really not up for.

That's just bizzare. You're not going to bother debating or discussing anything with me or even trying to respond to any of my points...um...until after I'm lynched?

If you really think I'm scum and want me lynched, shouldn't you be, like, arguing with my points here, trying to show how you think I'm wrong or somnething?

[Yosarian2]

Ok. Assume there is an SIA on you, and an SIA on a scum buddy of yours. It would be too risky for either of you to send in a kill at this point, but it would make more sense for you to be "hacked" into sending an order to switch these positions. Make sense now? If not, what is unclear?

No, it still really dosn't make much sense.

How would I know who the SA's are looking at? You really think the scum just aren't going to kill at all just because there's an off chance that one of the trackers might be scum? And if I was worried about that, couldn't I have made one of my scum partners a SA anyway?

In theory, I probably should. I am not very interested in discussing the merits of your attack on me, though, because I know I am not scum.

Again, that's really, really foolish. If you're not scum, it's your job to convince me and everyone else of that. You refusing to defend yourself because "you know you're not scum" is silly.

I am, however, interested in discussing the merits of my attack on you, because I think there is a great probability of you being scum, but I do not know for certain that I am right.

Heh...does anyone else see the absurdity here?

I could easily say "Well, I don't want to talk about your attack on me because I know I'm not scum". I'm not, though, because that would be dumb. Instead, I've responded to everything you've said, no matter how illogical it was, and you haven't even wanted to discuss that. Sheesh.

Yos, what do you think about FA?

Eh? Don't really have much of an opinion about him at the moment, haven't notice any major scum tells or town tells. Why?

[Yosarian2]

First off, why are we not using the liaison to the State Department??: Check this out:

Request Intelligence report from Foreign Intelligence Agency regarding Terrorist/Suspect/

Player

(This might work better with the Mossad than with the FSB)

Note: I don't understand the last part in the parenthesis, but yea...

That's interesting, I hadn't noticed that. I already sent in the move to change people's positions like I said I would for hour 5, but perhaps I could still change stuff. Although with a scum hacker around, I'd be nervous about investing too many of our resources into that kind of long-term stuff, instead of, say, a SIA agent.

Second thing: FBI can be used as a role blocker! Arrest, that is EXACTLY what it is. Arrest someone who is suspicious, SIA two more and you handicap up to three scum.

Well, except it sound like someone who's arrested can't even post in the thread or anything. It's more like a vig kill, except we don't find out the person's alignment but we could undo it, if we wanted to spend another 4 hours getting someone released from arrest, which would be an incredible waste unless they're somehow a confirmed innocent or something.

At the moment, I'd much rather we be lynching people and finding out their alignment rather then arresting them and basically killing them but not finding out their alignment. Although if it gets to endgame and we still can't find one of the scum, we might want to use that ability then to get a few extra kills.

Also, Yos, if you could call me into your office, there are a few other things I wanted to ask you.

Sure.

Kinetic, can you see me in my office, please?

[Yosarian2]

Well, you could very well be right. I didn't really read his post like that; when I read his second post, my impression was he was a townie who was hoping a scum would mess up and say something about his PM, and that he was annoyed that people had already pointed out that they didn't have PM's and thus prevented that.

[Yosarian2]

"Er... Kinetic, what exactly do you mean by protecting Yosarian? Clarify. And guys, if we can't reach an agreement on a lynch, we should at least be helping Jack find the bomb, don't you think?"

Well, if we want win by the "lynching scum" win condition, then we need to lynch hour 6.

Anyway, do you have any ideas of how we can help Jack find the bomb? All we know right now is that it's not at the Jefferson memorial, and it's probably not in the Franklin D. Roosevelt Park since the scum hacker probably told him to go there.

[Yosarian2]

Hmmm...well, I guess that's possible. I guess the question is, do we want to randomally order Jack around the city, or if we don't have any solid information is it better to just not send him any orders?

[Yosarian2]

Eh...then again, as far as we know, we don't even know if Jack does anything without orders; at least we might be able to rule out some more places. Would anyone have any problem with me sending Jack to the National Museum of Natural History?

[Yosarian2]

Just a thought: if we had 3 field agents plus Jack all investigating locations in D.C. we could sweep through the whole town in a couple "hours".

Perhaps; I guess it depends if we need to just look at the major buildings.

Although, even if we don't find the bomb that way, there are apparently other things to find; for example, there were apparently "shooters" who tried to kill Jack (I'm assuming NPC's at this point; I guess a scum at CTU doing it himself, or a rouge field agent, could also be possible), and we have a lot of town abilites to "extract" information from captured NPC terrorists. Even if the field agents or Jack don't find the bomb, they might find or capture a terrorist, or stop a secondary terrorist attack, or something.

[Yosarian2]

You know, Guardian, you could actually respond to my points on the subject, rather then just ignoring everything I say. But, whatever.

Anyway, when does hour 5 end? If we're sending Jack somewhere, I'd like to get the order in before the end of the hour.

[Yosarian2]

Nothing that has transpired in the last few days has caused me to think Yosarian2 is town.

Dude, nothing that's happened all game has "caused you to think I was town". You started attacking me quite early in hour zero, based on nothing, and you've been attacking me ever since. Either you're a stubborn fixated townie, or you're a scum who's trying too hard to look 'consistsnt'. Other points, like your blatent refusal to actually defend yourself and respond to logical argument set against you, make me think that scum is more likely.

[Yosarian2]

Back from v/la. If anyone links to specific posts, or types specific things they want me to address, I am now willing to.

Blatant refusal to address cases on me. Yes sir. Mr. Yos2.

Um...you did blately refuse to adress cases against you, several different time, and you still haven't adressed any of them.
#1:

First of all, Guardian, when you do your re-read, one thing I would specifically like you to adress is the case I laid out against you in post 555, back on page 23. The only response you ever made to the case I laid out against you and the vote I made for you was that my argument was "not obveously flawed". I realize you were on vacation and perhaps have time to respond fully, but if you could respond now I'd appriciate it

Your response:

Yos, you really want me to address that? *grumble grumble* I will do so if you affirm that it is so desired

In post 863, I did "affirm" it, and laid out several other arguments against you. You still refused to comment on my earlier argumetns, despite your promise that you would "if so desired", and just said you were too "depressed" to respond.

You again refused to respond to ANY of the arguments set out against you here:

I am still not ready to respond to Yos -- I have my thoughts, but putting them into words will just suck and take time and make me more annoyed when he responds and points out the "flaws" in my responses.

here:

I don't feel up to responding right now because I think he's scum and I don't like the case at all, but I'm sure there are "flaws" in my counter-arguments and it will start this back and forth that I'm really not up for.

and here:

I am not very interested in discussing the merits of your attack on me, though, because I know I am not scum.

So, yeah. You've pretty consistantly just flatly refused to defend yourself against either of the major cases I made against you (post 555, and post 863). I get the feeling that you know you can't effectivly respond to my attacks on you, because I've got you dead to rights, and so you're hoping you'll just ignore them and try to undermine me in other ways and hope the cases I made against you will be forgotten.

[Yosarian2]

I just told you, Guardian. Post 555, post 863.

[Yosarian2]

I really really disagree there. Speeding up the FBI when we don't really have a better idea of what we should be doing is an obvious move. Having the FBI sped up is going to help us all.

Well, except that we had to go down to 2 field agents, which actually left the FBI agent open to being killed, which would have already cost us 1 of the extra investigations the white house guy could have theoretically given us.

Again, I disagree. By the way,

anyone,

does Eyceking's speed up count? Or does someone have to do it again now?

I don't think it does; eyeking didn't sound sure. I guess we won't find out until the FBI agent concludes an investigation.

The white house is hardly safe as we can bribe terrorists or w/e, but ok.

Meh. I think that mostly just applies to captured terrorists, but it still seemed safer then most other positions.

I think pro towness is important in a cop. I still think UA or CTD would be better cops, as they are more pro-town looking.

I did make CTD a cop. And could you explain why you think UA is more town looking then Xdaamo? Because from my point of view, your suspicious of Xdaamo looked very OMGUSy.

[quote="Guardian]

He supported me over you for dictator because you've been looking scummy, and he explained why in great detail. It's also a complete misrepresentation to say that he "opposed anyone but Yos for dictator" or the he got a powerful role "because" he supported me; many other people were supporting me from the beginning of the game, wheras he didn't vote for me until much later, and for a while he supported Crashtext instead of me.

OK, that's true, fair enough.

You've been attacking him ever since he started attacking you've given quite terrible reasons why. And now you're pretty blatently just making stuff up that has no basis in the thread.

Huh? Making stuff up? Where, oh master Yos?
[/quote]

Um...the paragraph I just quoted that you agreed with? Where I showed that you totally mischaracterised te way Xdaamo behaved in the pre-game and his interactions with me? What you discribed had basically no connection to what actually happened in the game, so yeah, I think you were pretty much just making stuff up there.

Albert - suggesting horribly anti-town ideas, interactions with Yos, possibly faked late appearance.

Sure, I disagree with many of his stratagy ideas. However, my opinion of him is the same one you yourself stated several pages ago:

perfect position for him. Town, but doesn't really know what's what imo

What, exactally, has changed your opinion since then? Or are you just throwing whatever you can at the wall to see if it sticks?

I change my mind a lot. I can't answer this adequately because as of right now I find Albert townlike,

Well, it's one thing to change your mind, but you changed your mind in a lightning speed way just to match some paranoid conspericy theory you had, and now you can't even explain why. Makes me think you were just trying to invent a case against me and Xdaamo because we were both suspicious of you. Between your weak attack against me, your lies and misrepesentations about Xdaamo, and your sudden and switch from trusting Albert to thinking he was scum, the whole thing looks more like a cobbeled together attempt to put suspicion on to people who stand in your way then like an honest attempt to find scum.

You know what, this entire post of Guardian's been full of paranoia and OMGUS attacks against people who doubted him earlier in the game.

Paranoia, possibly. OMGUS, I don't think so.

Oh? So it's coincidence that your two main suspects for the entire game, me and Xdaamo, were also the first two people to put together attackes or express suspicious against you back in the start of the game?

I wanted someone I knew was pro-town and would do a good job as director. Only I fit the bill.

It's not that I suspect you for running for director; it's that I think the tactics you used were scummy, which were basically to try and accuse your opponents of being scum just so you would win the election.

[Yosarian2]

I STILL see no reason to believe Yos's computer was hacked. What am I missing?

Again, believe whatever you want. Hopefully if we can find and lynch, or catch in the act, the scum hacker, I'll be cleared.

]You couldn't have stopped CTD's investigation, AND eyceking's speedup, AND Xdaamno's investigation though. You managed to do all three, and came up with this nice excuse "OHMIGOD, my computer was hacked." Even if you had killed Xdam, suspicion would have come to you because Xdam was investigating you and then he was killed.

Your whole explination for why I was faking the "hacked" thing was that if I was scum I would have had to in order to avoid being investigated, and that's simply not true.

Sure, if Xdaamno had been killed, it might make me look bad. But the hacking thing makes me look even worse, as you've just pointed out.

The way you did it, you managed to disrupt THREE actions AND saved the mafia kill. Saying that you as mafia doing this has a "very large hole in it" is highly suspect.

What do you mean "saved" the mafia kill? The maifa can kill every 4 hours. It's hour 5 now. The mafia could have killed twice by now, unless they were doing something else instead. Besides, if I was a scum faking the whole hacking thing, then why wouldn't I have faked that and killed at the same time?

Also, some subtle pro-scum game theory:
-We don't want to "make use of all our lynches" if we aren't feeling good about anyone as scum. If we have only 6 people left at hour 21, with 2 (arbitrary number) of them scum, how in hell are we going to keep Jack alive?

Look, I still think our best chance of winning this is to lynch all of the scum before we run out of time.

Why not help Jack find the bomb? Really, why not? I think if we play this well we almost have a better chance of doing that then finding scum. It will be very hard to do that if we have a scum director though.

Eh? What makes you think we'll have a "better chance" of finding the nuke then of finding scum? Unless you know more then I do, I don't think we have any way of knowing what our chances of finding the nuke are, at all.

Again, like I said several times, I'm more then willing to listen to any suggstions about how to help Jack find the bomb, and we probably should do both at the same time. I really don't think we should just give up on the standard "find and lynch the scum" win condition; missing a lynch in this game is just as bad as a no-lynch in a normal game. Worse, even, as the time we have to win this game in is very limited.

If it gets to hour 24, and we haven't lynched all the scum, and we haven't somehow gotten Jack to disarm the bomb, we lose.

Very true, so why not disarm the bomb again?

I'd love to disarm the bomb. I just have absolutly no idea what our odds of doing that sucessfully are, and I don't really want to put all our eggs in that basket at this point in time.

And frankly, as of yet, we've gotten absolutly no actionable intellegence to help Jack out, and Jack's already been hurt. If anyone's got any ideas of what we can do to help us reach the "disarm the bomb" win condition, speak up, but I'm not going to count on it at the moment.

Put good players in all the agency roles, listen to the intel, help Jack, win the prize. It doesn't seem complicated to me. The longer this game goes on, the more the agency roles are important. And the more important it is for us to have able bodied townies around we can plug into roles. Your idea of using every available lynch will severely cripple the town's ability to

protect

Jack, never mind find the bomb.

Agency rolls? Ok, what agency rolls and abilies are you suggesting we use to find out where the bomb is and who the terrorists are, and what positions are you suggesting we lose in order to do that?

Meanwhile, all the scum have to do in order to win is to keep one of them alive long enough to run out the clock, and then they win. I think that's probably what they're trying to do, in fact; that would explain why they're hacking and disrupting us instead of killing us.

OR kill jack. I think this is complete misdirection and you are trying to kill Jack, and cripple and confuse the town.

Well, yes, that's true, if they kill Jack they also win, unless we lynch them all before they do that. You keep talking about "protecting Jack", and I'm not sure how you're suggesting we do that, exactally. Again, if you have specific suggestions, rather then just vauge attacks, make them.

If we fail to make use of all our lynching chances, if we only get 5, or 4, or whatever lynches off before hour 24, what do you think the odds are of us catching all the scum on time? If we play it your way, if we take it safe and easy and only lynch when we're sure, sure, there might still be 7 or 8 people left late in the game, but if 1 of them is scum, and we don't find him in time, we lose.

If we lynch all the townies, how are we going to utilize all the power roles? We won't be able to. Lynching for lynching's sake is a bad play in this game, imo.

Well, no, we wouldn't be able to utilize all the power roles, that's true. But if we can find the scum, that dosn't matter, does it?

Besides, this all seems way too convienent here. Seems like you just don't want us to lynch because you know if we do, it'll probably be you.

And your case here is even weaker now, as the scum apparently have the ability to disrput long-term actions like the white house thing (like they just did).

Yeah, that's true... they do have that ability.... WHEN A SCUM IS DIRECTOR....

So, you're just ignoring the possibility I'm telling the truth here, huh?

Many of your arguments are circular here. I'm a scum because you don't believe me, and you don't believe me because you think I'm scum.

-Also, assuming which terrost groups did it is highly suspect. UA pointed this out right quick, and kudos for that -- Yos could have been misleading us here.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm trying to speculate and figure stuff out based on the hints the mod has been giving us in the thread. If we want to help Jack, it's pretty obveous from the mod's posts that at some point we're going to want to figure out which group is behind the planning, and I can only think that the two mod reports of other terrorist activity (the oil tanker thing, and the spy satalite thing) are supposed to be some kind of hint to help us figure out stuff.

Since when have you wanted to help Jack? Up until this bit, it seems you've been much more concerned with voting off players at every opportunity and ignoring the Jack win condition.

Like I said, we should obveously try to do both, to both help Jack and to lynch the scum. We have two ways of winning, and I was never suggesting we totally ignore Jack, just that I think we're probably better off focusing on the one that we know how to do, find and lynch scum, rather then hoping that somehow everything just comes together as far as the Jack Bauer thing goes.

Again, you're big on critisizing, but I'm just trying to figure out stuff here. Do you have any better ideas on what's going on here?

Yeah, I do. You're scum, we need a town director, and we need to start helping Jack and using lynches much more judiciously.

More circular "you're scum because you're scum" reasoning from you here.

Also, I cannot believe no-one brought this up in my absence -- SIA's SHOULD target the deputy. Deputy = potentially scummy player. I have had NO PM communication with the mod or anyone else all game. If someone had been monitoring that, I would be cleared by now, .

That's really, really dumb, Guardian.

Ohmibad. Proven townies = really really dumb. Sorry for suggesting it.[/sarcasm]

Um...did you actually read the rest of what I wrote? Besides, directing investigative rolls, especally ones that the scum can avoid if they know who the rolls are targeting, is very, very scummy.

The only thing the SIA's detect are communicatiosn sent from a player to a mod. And I'm sure that any reasonably intellegent scum group that you were a part of would have had someone lower key send in any scum actions, not someone that everyone is as suspicious of as you.

Who knows how many scum there are? And who knows who the SIAs would think is scummy. I disagree.

Um...you disagree with what? I was just stating a fact. No matter if the SIA's got any messages coming from anyone or not, it could not possibly "clear" anyone. The most it could do was to clear someone of being the scum hacker, but you were just earlier trying to insist that that scum role dosn't even exist.

Besides, just earlier in this post, you were trying to claim that I made up the whole "hacking" thing. If that were true, then it would appear that the scum haven't done ANYTHING yet this game, so how would that "clear" you anyway?

OK, that is a good point. I think the scum are waiting to use their kill for some reason.

That dosn't make any sense either, but whatever.

In fact, I think this "Oh, if a SIA's been watching me that would clear me!" line was a slip; it sounds like you know that the hacking thing DID happen, and you also know it was one of your scum-buddies and not you who did it.

Negative.

Sound reasoning there.

I also think that you're trying to get the SIA's to say who they are targeting, so you and your scum buddies know which one of you should send in orders in the future.

fos:Guardian

Nope. Just that if one of them had been targeting me, that'd have been really nice.

HOW? HOW WOULD IT HAVE BEEN REALLY NICE??? Because that would mean that they wouldn't have been targeting your hacker scumbuddy?

And again, trying to direct SIA targets/find out who the SIA's are targeting is really the one of the main reasons I re-voted for you here.

I want a town crypto. Is that too much to ask?

Do you know who all the pro-town people are? Also, while he's fortunaly been replaced now, it would have obv been absolutly terrible to have a lurking crypto who would never have even sent in the order to decrypt information because he wasn't around.

vote:Guardian

Why am I not surprised. His main detractor, and he dedicates two huge posts to finding me suspicous and voting me.

Um, I've "dedicated two huge posts" to attacking you because you've been looking incredibly scummy all game. So I explained why I think you're scummy, and voted for you. It's called "scum hunting".

[Yosarian2]

I agree with you.

Um...you agree with who about what, exactally?

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, before the end of the hour, I'm going to send Jack out, as we discussed. Hopefully he'll find something.

[Yosarian2]

I think we want people in all the agencies pretty soon, and take away 1 or 2 SIAs and Field Agents. I think the agencies are going to give us valuable intel to help us find terrorists.

Well, we might, it mentiosn that in the mod post, but as far as I know nether of the agincey people we have got any extra intel from the FBI or the white house. Not really sure we want to bet on that changing.

Especally since, if we do want to find the bomb, the only roles we have that can actually do that as far as we know are the SIA's (who can listen in on terrorist groups) and the field agents (that can check out locations). Some of the agencies have some abilites that sound useful if we manage to capture a terrorist though.

[Yosarian2]

Right. If we actually use all 7 lynches, the odds of us getting all 3 scum are quite good. The bandwagons provide info, and just the number of possibilities drops.

[Yosarian2]

Um....Is it just me, or have Albert's last three or four posts just given off really weird....vibes?

What was that Salam Alayku business? And what makes you think we can lynch every hour? (Cus...guess what. We can't.)

Yeah, he's been rather wierd for a while now, starting with the whole "CTD was obv investigating yos...how dare you ask me how I know that, stop fishing...no that was just to get a reaction" thing.

[Yosarian2]

Guaridan, like I said a few pages ago, I already sent in the order to change things back to the way they were before I was hacked, except that eyeking is now going to be a third field agent. So you're going to go back to being deputy once hour 5 is over (which I think is overdue, actually).

[Yosarian2]

If that is the case, then I did no harm by starting something, right?

No, no harm. You might as well, I suppose. Just letting you know.

[Yosarian2]

Well, I don't really have much of a read on him yet. Looking back at his posts, he's been kind of quiet; not actually a lurker, and he's been contributing some content, but he hasn't done much in the way of scumhunting.

FA, who do you think is looking suspicious, and why?

[Yosarian2]

Is a field agent investigating a site something that only takes an hour? I know Yogurt did it, but I'm not sure how long it took him.

Anyway, yeah, I agree that it would be a good idea for one of the SIA's to watch Hizbollah.

[Yosarian2]

Hmmm...reading over the list of terrorist groups, al-Ikhwan is also a possibility for a group that would want to take terrorist action against Israel, I just noticed that they supported Hamas in Palestine.

[Yosarian2]

Guardian: I suppose it could be unconected, but whenver some other random terrorist act happens during a season of 24 (a plane blows up, someone blows up CTU headquarters, ect), isn't it generally connected to the plotline?

[Yosarian2]

Therefore, I think there are 2 questions we have to consider:
1. Should we stop concentrating on just one win condition, and start putting resources towards keeping Jack safe and helping him find the bomb in addition to scum hunting?

I personally think the answer is yes. So far, we're down one townie and have gathered zero useful cop info as far as I'm aware. Considering we're already 1 quarter into the game, that's pretty bad. And we're at least another 5 hours away from getting anything in that regard, and only if (and it's a big if) the scum don't fuck us over again.

Ok, fair enough.

Well, the two most useful things I can think of to do to help Jack find the bomb are to have the field agents (or some of the field agents) checking out sites in DC, and having the SIAs listen in on the terrorist networks. Looking back at the list of powers we have in the first post, I don't see a whole lot else; looks like the NSA guy can investigate a location with satalite recon, but that's probably slower and less efficent then just sending a field agent there; and I don't see any other abilites that look all that helpful at finding the bomb or finding the terrorists until after we get some better info or until after we capture someone.

2. Is there any way we can stop another hacking attempt, or other unforseen scum shenanigans?

We have tools to stop nightkills, and battle the scum on the traditional win condition. Do we have tools to mess with them on the other front as well? I'm only really familiar with my own role (or rather my ex- and soon to be again role), so I trust each one of you to know this better than I do. If you have suggestions on that front, speak up please.

Yeah, if anyone has any ideas on that front, I'd like to hear them.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, I don't know if you have more information than me or something, because I would have no clue where to start with all this 'Jack' stuff.

No, I don't really either, unfortunatly. I don't have any special information. All I know is what was in the mod post; the bomb is somewhere in DC, and it's being hidden by one of those terrorist groups, and it sounds like we've got a lot of roles that can pressure a terrorst to talk if we can find out who he is or capture him.

[Yosarian2]

OTM: Hmm, well in the mod post where he's talking about the counter-intel role, Pooky does say that if an investigation is interupted that it will have to be re-started.

[Yosarian2]

Well, according to the mod:

If you begin investigating player X at hour 1, the investigation will be done by the beginning of hour 5 and you can foward the results to a chosen crypto agent at that point. you may not send multiple results to multiple crypto agents.

And it was hour 4 I was hacked. According to the mod, the positions were switched at the end of hour 4.

CrashTextDummy has switched Jobs with Guardian Effective End of Hour 4

EyceKing has switched Jobs with Xdamno Effective End of Hour 4

I've read over basically everyting the mod's said about the subject, trying to figure out exactally what happened, and I'm afraid we're SOL.

[Yosarian2]

Well then if they can do it once they can do it again - this effectively renders Field Agents in the bodyguard role as useless because the scum don't need to kill in order to upset the investigations being carried out.

For the most part, I suppose, although we still don't really want cryptos with multiple hours of SIA info getting killed.

As OTM mentioned, he discussed it with me in private and he is currently investigating a place in DC for scum activity; I think he picked the white house as a likely terrorist target and is checking that out now. I figured there was no point in him continuing to protect the cops after the switch, when they weren't even the cops any more.

That is unless we come up with a way to stop the hacking from occurring again, although it may be there is some sort of "Scum Hacker" role and we need to arrest the right person to stop it happening again. Or lynch them - but lynching is more permanent and we need to be sure if we're going to lynch whereas with arrests the person can be brought back at a later time.

That's a possibility, if we're dealing with a "scum hacker" style role. The problem with arresting people rather then lynching them is that we won't find out their alignment if they get arrested. Well, that, and the fact that having the FBI arrest someone is a 4 hour operation and thus just as vulerable as cop investigations.

Like I said, if it looks like we might not get off enough lynches to catch all the scum before the game ends, we might be able to can use FBI arrests to get an extra lynch or two in before time runs out, but in general I think we'd be better off just lynching people.

[Yosarian2]

Hmm. That's interesting, I guess.

It's kind of funny, though; Yogurt sounded pretty sure about the Jefferson mamorial. Was there some flavor to explain why you weren't sure? Is the white house just too big or something?

[Yosarian2]

Ah, that is interesting.

Reading back over Yogurt's posts, he also mentioned "he had a chance to investigate more but didn't". Is that about how your ability worked, Guardian?

[Yosarian2]

Actually, that question was supposed to be directed at OTM, heh. My mistake.

Not quite sure what you meant by that response...when were you a field agent, Guardian? Am I missing something?

[Yosarian2]

I was testing you to try and see if you just slipped and said Guardian instead of OTM, or if you were paying so little attention as to think I was a field agent.

You passed.

Um...did you really get the idea I'm not paying much attention to this game?

[Yosarian2]

Um...are you going to actually try to explain anything, Albert, or are you just going to keep posting random one-liners that make no sense while demanding bodyguard protection?

OTM: I thought Albert was town earlier in the game, but he's been getting wierder and wierder lately.

[Yosarian2]

Totally agree. And I've been waiting to post this, but I might as well say it now. If FA comes up scum, I find it extremely likely that Yos is too, since CDB supported Yos as director in the early game.

:eyebrow:

That's kind of a thin connection; a lot of people supported me in the early game.

In any case, could you please restate your case against FA? I agree that he needs to post more content; the rate he's been posting just isn't enough for a speed game like this; but at the moment the case against Guardian seems much stronger.

About the whole thing with Guardian; frankly, trying to read anything into the "did he get a PM" stuff AFTER Xdaamo made that "I haven't gotten a role yet...kidding..." post is probably futile; even if someone didn't read the rules, I'd think any reasonably intellegent scum should have been able to figure out what was going on after that, and trying to guess if any specific person did not get a PM or was just trying to pretend is pretty much just OMGUS guessing.

[Yosarian2]

Right, and if any of those who supported you strongly come up scum, then you need to be scrutinized. Them's the breaks of getting elected.

Well, I certanly understand trying to make connections based on that, but the problem is is that, because I was elected, that means there were a LOT of people who supported me; some strongly so, some more weakly so, and so the odds are very high that at there was at least one scum there; I mean, even if one of the other candidates (say, Gardian) was scum, I wouldn't expect all of his scum mates to support him, because that kind of clustering is bad scum stratagy, I'd expect at least one of them to support me instead just for distancing purposes.

The strongest point of my case is where CDB tells everyone to "READ THE BLOODY FIRST POST". This tells me he does NOT want people accidentally confirming themselves as town. He tries to play it off as "we have already given information to the terrorists" but this rings false to me. I think scum would be much more concerned about people giving themselves away like that than town would.

There's only one problem with that theory. Why wouldn't he just tell his scum partners that in PM, if that was his goal, so they could all pretend they didn't get a PM? Why try to communicate with them in-thread like that? I mean, it's always possible he couldn't for some reason; I guess it's possible that with no nights the scum can't talk at all, but for a game this complex that seems unlikely to me.

[Yosarian2]

It doesn't matter if scum was able to talk during election. I'm not saying CDB was trying to communicate with scum, I was saying he was trying to stop townies from confirming themselves.

Um, but if all townies had to do to "confirm" themselves would be to act dumb and say "drr, I didn't get a role PM", then why didn't the scum just say "hey, let's just do that"? Especally if they could talk to each other.

[Yosarian2]

even if they could talk then, which is uncertain, maybe

you

they didn't think of that at the time, Yos?

So, you think it occured to him that townies were "confirming" themselves, but not that scum could just do the exact same thing in the exact same way?

[Yosarian2]

I'd love to, but it seems we're not getting anywhere. A lot of non-participants in this "fast-paced game".

Agreed. That's really hurting us. We've already lost one lynch. We've got at most 6 lynches now. Not good.

Frankly, while I don't really like the case for FA, at this point if it was the only way to lynch, I'd hammer him if needed in order to avoid losing another lynch.

Let's see...right now, we get at most:

Hour 7
Hour 10
Hour 13
Hour 16
Hour 19
Hour 22

Yeah, at most 6 lynches. If we don't lynch by hour 9, it drops down to a max of 5 lynches.

We need to lynch, and soon. I'd still prefer a Guardian lynch, but if there's not support for that I'd be willing to lynch nearly anyone at this point.

[Yosarian2]

All right, I'm certanly interested to hear what you have to say.

Guardian:Can I see you in my office?

I'll go log on AIM; I'm doing several things at once at the moment, so I might not respond right away, but I'm here.

[Yosarian2]

On another note, I really agree that we need to hear more from spambot, especally as he's a crypto an all that. Granted he did post two days ago, but he's been posting less content then we need him to this game, and I'd like to hear who he suspects and all that?

mod:Can you prod spambot, please?

[Yosarian2]

Ok. That was an interesting discuss with Guardian.

By the way,

mod, are we allowed to quote conversations we had with other players in my office in the thread, or should I just paraphrase?

Not guardian, actually; this is in referecne to some things Albert said a while back, just talking with Guardian made me think about it.

Also, Spambot, I do want to hear your suspicions. I'm also interested about any crypto results you might have, but we can discuss those in private if you'd rather.

[Yosarian2]

I've got to say I strongly disagree with you there, spambot. If we don't start lynching, and use all our lynches, we're basically betting the whole game on our ability to find the bomb. I frankly have no idea what our odds of doing that are or even quite how to do it and betting on that seems like a bad gamble to me. I'd rather actually play mafia here; lynch, try and find the scum, and use the bandwagons to get info, instead of just hoping that we find the bomb.

Should we try to find the bomb, with field agents or SIA's or whatever? Sure. But not at the expense of scumhunting.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, I also notice you didn't answer my other question, Spambot, which is about what information you've recently deciphered. But I suppose that would better be discussed in private, at least for the moment.

spambot, I'd like to see you in my office

[Yosarian2]

Ok, good, glad I'm allowed to quote stuff from my office meetings with other players.

Anyway, while I thought he was town earlier, Albert's been acting strange lately, so I went back and looked at the PM's of the private conversation we had a few game hours ago; remember, when he suddenly wanted to talk to me and wouldn't say why?

At the time I thought it was kind of odd, because he didn't really have any relevent info to say to me; he mostly just wanted me to assign him his own personal bodyguard, like he was also saying in the thread. However, he did say this, which looking back looks incredibly scummy to me.

I receive important information from the SIAs every hour. Actions sent to the mod from suspicious players are referred to me. You said you trusted OTM least of all the field agents, why would you hesitate to assign him to me and have Korran protect the counter-intelligence agent ?

(shrug) I guess we could switch OTM and Korran's jobs, if they both wanted to, so OTM would be protecting one of the two cybers (but not announcing which one in thread) and Korran would be protecting Xxdaamo. Not really sure why you want to make the switch, though.

Also, I can't exactally tell them what to do anyway, as you may have noticed from the fact that Yogurt apperntly ignored his orders.

If you want the bodyguard to change, your best bet is to probably try to argue it in the thread, so both me and the bodyguards can hear your reasons; I'm not sure why this is a conversation you want to keep secret. Of course, if you just wanted to make the scum think that you were giving me information so they won't feel the need to kill you to stop that information from getting out, I can understand that.

Not only that, but I will look good when the terrorists kill you and you are proven to be on our side.

I think you should keep office meetings to a minimum tough.

I didn't pay much attention at the time, but the line that he wanted to talk to me so he would look good "when the terrorists kill me and I'm proven to be pro-town" just looks incredibly scummy reading it again now. It seems that A. he knew my alignment, B. he had some idea of the terrorists future killing plans, and C. he was very much conserned about looking good. All are scum tells.

fos:Albert

[Yosarian2]

Well at the time I had decrypted information (the actions were investigations on you) so that you would be proven town or scum either way. Truth be told I never anticipated that ALL the investigations would be interrupted. And that's why I turned 180 degrees on you, really.

That may be so, Albert, but you didn't sound like you were expecting me to be investigated. You sounded like you already knew I was innocent. Besides, Xdaamo investigating me was public knowlege, as he had stated it early in the thread, so even if that is true that you knew for a fact that he was investigating me it dosn't really change anything.

We have 0 investigations, and I think we have you to blame.

(shrug) I know that I didn't order the switches, but I understand that you don't have any way of knowing this for sure. Nonetheless, that's not really relevent to the point either; answering my suspicions of you by giving a totally different reason to suspect me dosn't actually answer anything at all.

[Yosarian2]

But again, that's not what you said. If you said "I think you're on my side", that would be fine. "When you're proven to be on my side" sounds like you already KNOW I'm pro-town, and that's why it's scummy.

[Yosarian2]

Its best that you think that I "know" your town, even if that isn't the case. Do you see where I am getting at ?

No, I really don't. There WAS no way you could "know" I was town before the first investigations started to come, unless you are scum. No SIA investigation could possibly prove someone's town. Again, if you had said you thought I was town, that'd be fine.

[Yosarian2]

Um, no, Spambot, I didn't order Jack to FDR park. I assume you just got your locations confused?

[Yosarian2]

Especally since you correctly told me by PM where I did send Jack, and that wasn't it, lol.

[Yosarian2]

That is interesting. So during hour 4, you actually intercepted the signals sent out by the hacker from my computer, huh? What was the flavor there?

On another note, I guess I should have made this clear in PM, but I kind of wish you hadn't mentioned in thread that I sent Jack to The Mall during hour 5, because I haven't sent him any orders since then; I don't know if that means he's still there or not, but we don't want the scum to know where he is, so perhaps I'd better move him again quick.

[Yosarian2]

I don't know, Albert. Perhaps they don't trust you?

Also, that is NOT something you should be saying in the thread; if both SIA's are sending all their info to Spambot, and you SAY THAT IN THREAD, that makes Spambot a huge target.

[Yosarian2]

FA and Yosarian are indeed our scum. Let's lynch them ASAP. And I mean ASAP as in this very hour.

FA is scum because he was watching CTD and sent the results to spambot? What?

[Yosarian2]

Also, seriously, get a new crypto. If Spambot is the only trusted one at this point, it defeats the purpose of having 2, and now the poor guy is backed up on stuff

Yos I asked you to become a field agent pages ago...still waiting on it.

(shrug) All right, I can switch Albert with one of the field agents. OTM and kenetic both look rather pro-town to me at the moment. Anyone have any preference about which one becomes the new crypto? I'm especally interested in what the SIA's think, as they'll be working with him.

[Yosarian2]

Also, I'd still like Albert to explain why what he quoted proves FA is scum. The bolding really dosn't help; are you saying I should have yelled at you and spambot the first time you two started talking about who was sending messages to who?

[Yosarian2]

Checking in:

I'm still trying to catch up. I'm up to page 11. And also trying to keep up with the current posts, which are rather confusing to me having not read what led up to now yet.

It would be nice if you all held off on lynching until I'm caught up.

Glad to have you in the game, it's been a while.

We can't wait too long; we have to lynch before the end of hour 9, about 6 real life days from now, or I believe we lose a lynch, if I added right.

Let's see...

9
12
15
18
21
24

Yeah, we have to lynch hour 9, and if we can lynch hour 8 it's probably be better, just in case we lose another hour somewhere down the line. So while I'd love to hear what you have to say, we might not be able to wait long before we lynch.

[Yosarian2]

I think I might have an idea that will make everyone happy, since suspicions have also been raised about FA (and I'll tell you the truth, I'm not completely convinced about him one way or the other), why not put FA as the other Field Agent, and put OTM or myself in the SIA position.


Also, Yos, I have a couple more questions, if you could invite me to your office when you get a chance.

Hmm...I guess I could do that, but that would mean Albert was a SIA, which if he is scum is almost as dangerous as a crypto.

Anyway, sure.

Kinetic, I'd like to see you in my office

[Yosarian2]

Hmmm...lot of interesting suggestions here, but I think first of all I'd better make sure I get the move in, before hour 8 ends and the SIA's are sending more info. So first, I'm going to switch Albert and Kinetic, and we can figure out where else to go from there.

OTM: Even if FA is suspcicious (and I'm not really convnced by the case against him, but whatever) I'd rather have him being a SIA agent then have him with no role. We can take whatever results we get from him with a grain of salt, certanly, and re-evaluate later if and when we find out his alignment, but eh, it's probably better then getting no info at all from him, and it's always possible that if he is scum we'll catch him screwing with the results and prove it that way.

[Yosarian2]

PJ, you'll see what happened when you get to that part of the game, but I did not order the roles to be switched. Someone at CTU, some kind of scum hacker, hacked in to the director's personal computer, and sent 3 orders out in my name, disrupting the power roles and sending Jack Bauer into a trap.

The relevent events happened on hours 3 and 4; the first attempt by the scum to hack into my account failed, the second one, on day 4, suceeded, followed by the 3 orders hitting at the end of hour 4. Also relevent is the fact that, dispite the mod saying the scum can kill every 4 hours, the scum have not killed yet, which makes me supect that the hacking action took the place of the scum kill.

Anyway, you'll see it when you read that part of the game.

[Yosarian2]

The relevent events happened on hours 3 and 4; the first attempt by the scum to hack into my account failed, the second one, on day 4, suceeded, followed by the 3 orders hitting at the end of hour 4.

Questions.

1.) How do you know the first attempt failed? Link the post, please.
2.) How could scum try twice in a row so soon? If they tried Hour 3 and failed (which indicates me it took 3 hours of waiting time), how come they got another full shot in 1 hour?
3.) How much, if any, information did the scum get through this 'hacking'?
4.) Does it matter that the orders were sent out "in your name"? Is there a way to trace this? [Note: I have not fully absorbed all the roles yet, I should get to that].

Ok. This was in hour 3, post 694:

Well, that's worrying...

I was just told by the mod that someone here at CTU just tried to hack into the director's personal computer, and specifically into the director's e-mail and personell file. I'm not sure what that means; whatever they were trying to do, it apparenlty wasn't sucessfull this time.

Basically, I was told my the mod that there had been several attempts to access the director's personal e-mail and personell file on my computer, using bad passwords, but that they had apparently not managed to actually access my account. I was also told that it must have been someone inside CTU trying to hack me.

At the time, I posted the thread above attempt that had failed; re-reading Pooky's PM now, I'm now thinking it's possible that the scum hacking may have just taken two hours to crack my passwords.

When the scum hacked me in hour 4, I was told that I had been hacked, that they had gotten into my e-mail account and that they had sent out 3 e-mailed orders in my name from the director's e-mail account. We didn't actually find out what they were doing until the end of the hour, when the told us that:

FBI Special Report

At approximately 4 AM, Jack Bauer was ambushed in FDR Park, we have not IDed or located the shooters. Mr. Bauer amazingly escaped with just a flesh wound, we have no idea where the shooters fired from but we are currently sweeping the premises.

We believe Mr. Bauer was acting on faulty intel provided by CTU and have reason to suspect that extensive housecleaning is in order on your end.

CrashTextDummy has switched Jobs with Guardian Effective End of Hour 4

EyceKing has switched Jobs with Xdamno Effective End of Hour 4

So, apparently, with their 3 orders, they sent Jack Bauer into a trap, they switched CTD's job with Guardian's job, and they switched Eyeking's job with Xdamno's job, disrupting all 3 of the pro-town actions that take 4 hours to complete.

[Yosarian2]

20.) Jefferson Memorial

3.) Library of Congress

2.) Union Station

are also cleared

Did Yogurt finish his investigation of Union Station?

[Yosarian2]

I don't like this idea, actually.

FoS: Yos2

. This is putting too many of the eggs in one basket – if that cryptologist then dies, the result is completely at the director's word, who already has a good deal of power.

Meh. Is that worse then losing the information completly?

For the most part, it's probably best if most information just be revealed publicly, but eh, if there's information that a crypto dosn't think should be revealed publicly but that he dosn't want to risk it getting lost completly, telling the director's a reasonable option.

[Yosarian2]

Sure.

Guardian, I'd like to see you in my office.

[Yosarian2]

Hmm. Interesting.

Do we want to try to make someone else FBI liason, or might we be better off just sticking with the roles that do something every hour, the SIA's and field agents, and thus are harder to disrupt?

[Yosarian2]

ABR has just said the thing I was wondering about. Interested in why Yos seemed leery to even bother with the White House Liaison.

Eh...not leery, perhaps, but out of all the roles I assigned that seemed like the weakest, in that it didn't really do anything by itself and basically could only in an ideal situation get us at most 2 extra FBI investigations, and a role that only gets 2 investigations all game is probably weaker then the other roles. Not a bad role, but it seemed kind of borderline to me.

[Yosarian2]

Pages 21-25

Important question. OTM, have you changed your protection away from Xdaamno since 586/588 post (I have noticed Xdaamno has died as protown during my reading)? Also, would you mind extrapolating on this post? Early game, you called ABR your effective 'mason buddy', and now you are telling Xdaamno not to "have his mind made up already". Could you explain why you feel these situations are different?

I don't mean to answer for OTM, but I've discussed this with him in private, and I can tell you that (assuming he's told me the truth) it's changed a couple of times since then, PJ.

First, after Yogurt was lynched and we only had 2 field agents, I said in the thread that OTM should pick one of the 2 cops (either the counter-intellegence cop or the FBI liason) and protect him; the theory was that at least that way the scum wouldn't know which cop was protected. He told me by PM that he was protecting the counter-intel person at this point.

Later, during hour 5, after the switch had happened, there was really no point in OTM continuing to protect either cop (as they weren't even cops anymore), so I told him by PM that if he wanted to go out and use the other field agent ability to investigate some site in DC, that that would be a good time to do it.

I haven't talked to him since then, and I'm not sure what he's been doing since then.

Oh, and sure, PJ, I'd be glad to talk to you in private.

PJ, I'd like to see you in my office, please.

[Yosarian2]

I still insist, as I've insisted the whole goddamn game, to not be put in a cryptologist position. Yosarian has been stubborn on this point and now look where we are; scum FA won't send me his SIA information, and the other SIA is also sending his encryptions to spambot. I am effectively made useless by the mafia.

I request to have my position changed immediately. FA should be assigned to no position at all.

I've already sent in the move, Albert, switch you and OTM. Although I'm seriously considering just removing you from any position at all, your play has really not been looking pro-town lately.

[Yosarian2]

Erm, my mistake, I actually switched Albert and Kenetic.

[Yosarian2]

Some kind of trend I'm trying to make? I've been suspicious of you for a little while now, Albert, and I've explained why.

Besides, I tend to distrust anyone who goes with the "oooh, if you lynch me, you'll look bad when I die and come up town" defense as scum use that one all the time.

[Yosarian2]

...

Huh? I "wouldn't go after you if I was town"? What the heck is that supposed to mean?