Mini 461 "24" Game Over. Roll Credits

[CrashTextDummie]

The only two people I even know and trust enough to take this position are CDB and Yos. I'd be willing to volunteer though, I'd take care of things Toni Almeida style!

Vote: CTD

Second choice is Yos.

[CrashTextDummie]

Some thoughts on the set-up.

We should probably have a counterintelligent agent at all times. Since his investigations take longer than it takes the scum to kill, we also need a bodyguard on him at all times (if I understand that role correctly).

I agree that 2 cryptographers sounds about right.

Since only 1 liason can be operating at one time (again, if I understand correctly), I don't see any reason to assign more than 1 player at a time to this position. This is also the position we can assign more dubious players to, since it doesn't seem like there's room to backstab us here.

Mod

: Can a cryptography Analyst process as much intel as they get, or are there restrictions?

Right now, it seems to me like we should assign the following positions:

Director
1 x Deputy Director
1 x Counterintelligence Agent
3 x Field Agent (one of them on bodyguard duty for the Counterintelligence Agent)
1 x liason
2 x cryptography analyst
2 x signals intelligence analyst

That's 10 positions.

[CrashTextDummie]

Oh sorry, missed that decryptions take one hour to process. Depending on the amount of intel, it might be better to fill all 3 positions there.

[CrashTextDummie]

I also suck at math.

My proposal would have all 12 players assigned positions.

[CrashTextDummie]

CTD, you're missing a position. Deputy Director is one of our essentials.

Actually, he's not; Director and Deputy Director are both manditory, so I think we're both just trying to figure out what's the best use for the other 10 people.

I forgot to count the Director. And with 1 more Crypto Analyst, I've filled 12 positions.

[CrashTextDummie]

Some more thoughts:

It seems to me like field agents, liasons and, to a lesser extent, director and deputy director are the only roles that are not prone to be abused if filled by scum.

I'd be inclined to assign the most sketchy players to the field and as liasons, while having the players with the best grasp of the game to fill the two directors posts.

[CrashTextDummie]

CTD: Ok; the only big difference between my list and yours is that you are assuming 3 field agents, while I was thinking that 1 or perhaps 2 to protect the counterintellegence agent might be enough.

Seeing as Field Agents seem to be completely transparent in their work, I don't see any reason to let players do nothing when they could fill positions there instead.

[CrashTextDummie]

CTD: Ok; the only big difference between my list and yours is that you are assuming 3 field agents, while I was thinking that 1 or perhaps 2 to protect the counterintellegence agent might be enough.

Seeing as Field Agents seem to be completely transparent in their work, I don't see any reason to let players do nothing when they could fill positions there instead.

They're transparent in their work? I don't know about that, some of that "assasination" ect stuff might let the scum hurt Jack Bower if they're field agents.

I might be trying to outguess the mod here, but they're among the roles without a "don't put a terrorist in this position" warning.

But then again, the role description for Field Agents seems to be incomplete, so meh.

[CrashTextDummie]

Woah, this setup is crazy complicated. I need to read the first post a couple more times, but right now I've liked what Yos has said. I want to think about it more, but I'll probably vote for Yos.

*raises eyebrow*

[CrashTextDummie]

Also, no one really answered my thoughts about how having an easier to read and more likely to work with the town director is safer. I see myself, YB, UA, and possibly some other people as more likely to do that than Ctd, Yos, and Cdb.

The Director needs to know what he's doing first and formost. That's why I want an experienced player in the position. I know I'm up to it, and I know Yos and CDB are up to it, but I don't know about everyone else (I'll say that there are a number of players who are

not

up for it in my opinion though).

I find it a bit baffling that you would say yourself, YB and UA are "easier to read" than the three of us. It's even more baffling that you would say your trio is "more likely to work with the town". Care to elaborate on this?

[CrashTextDummie]

Mod

: Please prod the following players ASAP:
Albert B. Rampage
Off the Mark
Ultima Avalon

We probably need them to elect a Director, and I

want

them to give imput before the pregame is over. Kthxbai (other players may need prods too, these are just the people who haven't posted yet at all).

The way I see it, either Yos or myself should be voted into the Director's chair. I will switch my vote to Yos if my chances seem unlikely a bit closer to deadline. I think it is imperative that we put a good player in this position, as it is the one that bears the most weight and responsibility. I understand the concerns of some that a good player is also good at deceiving if he's scum, but I don't share them; I think Yos is town (and obviously I know I am town).

Korran

- a couple of questions for you:
1. You say that Guardian is the only player here you know. Does that make him less likely to be scum?
2. Have you read the game so far?
3. If the last answer is yes, who else do you think would make a good director?

Guardian

- Your reaction to the blind trust Korran seems to have in you is slightly off-putting to me. Particularly this bit:

Telling us why you chose me among all the people you don't know would help us understand you and know whether we can trust you better, though.

Am I correct in assuming that you think he is town?

Also, I've got a million-dollar question for you:
Do you want to be Director because it sounds like the most fun role or because you honestly think you'd be the best man for the job?

Xdaamno - I disagree with most of your strategy suggestions. Don't know yet what to think about that.

YoghurtBandit - You're pushing hard to be a Liason. Care to explain why? Also, what makes you think Guardian's the right choice for Director?

My initial suspicion of Spambot have eased somewhat lately, I'd probably be okay with assigning him to one of the more crucial positions.

Think that's all for the moment *rubs temple*.

[CrashTextDummie]

Korran - I asked you questions. Answer them.

I want to hear more from CDB, I got really good vibes from just his first post (or two?), better vibes than I am getting from Yos OR Ctd, to be honest, for all their contributions. Xdaamo I am unsure about.

Let me guess... You're not getting good vibes from us because we both suggested ourselves as director?

You know, Guardian, I have difficulty following your line of thinking. Earlier you said that you find both Yosarian and

yourself

scummy for trying to be director, which is an incredibly twisted way of looking at things. You say you are pro-town, so you of all people should be able to recognize the motivation of a pro-town player to become director.

[CrashTextDummie]

Though I REALLY don't like CTD's idleness. I'll be willing to change if it comes to the end of the day and Yos needs it.

You think I've been idle? I've actually been giving this game more attention than others, although I have to admit being a little disencouraged by the fact that 3 people still haven't checked in and the mod has shown no sign of doing anything about it.

:\ This game is kinda hosed. Out of me, YB, and Korran, I am sure that no more than 1 is scum, and am almost sure that none is scum. Yet we seem to be the most suspected.

Out of Xdaamno, CTD, and Yos, I suspect that 1 or more is scum, yet somehow they seem to be in the clear. Xdaamno I get the most town read on, but I really dislike how his whole game contributions have been "No, Guardian bad!"

If push came to shove, I'd rather have Yos as director than CTD.

Why? And I ask not only in regard of the last part, I'd like you to explain all of it. Did you even consider that there are 3 people we haven't even heard of when you speculated on those scum numbers?

Mod - please read this

:
There are 3 people who have not posted yet at all. I want all of them to have at least 1 post in before the pre-game is over, or else have them replaced. We may not even be able to reach a majority in this directorial election without them. I strongly suggest extending the deadline under these circumstances.

[CrashTextDummie]

Here are a couple of question I think everyone should answer, in order to give the Director (whoever that may be) an idea of where everyone stands:

1. What do you think the most important role (besides Director) is?
2. Which player would you like to see in that position?
3. Which player do you trust least?
4. What role, if any, would you like assigned to that player?

Please explain your answers.

[CrashTextDummie]

Welcome, newcomers.

I find myself in the same position as Yosarian, in the sense that I find it hard to believe 3 players didn't notice the game going on for a week. I know both Albert B. Rampage and UltimaAvalon are playing other games in Coney Island, and think there is a distinct possibility that at least one of the late-comers did not post deliberately to set up this townie claim.

That said, I like UA's entry into the game the best out of the three, except for this little tidbit:

CrashTextDummie calls for prods after lurking himself.

I was asking for prods specifically for those who hadn't posted yet at all.

I find it a bit curious that you would associate asking for a prod on you with lurking, seeing as you're assuring us that that's not what you were doing at all.

Which is an issue that I don't think has been brought up or stated in the first post. Does the Director give a job and assignment, or does a Field Agent choose between Guarding someone or assassinating? Everyone seems convinced the Director contrls absolutely everything, but I've seen nothing to confirm this. I'd also like to know if Position assignments will be made public or private. Otherwise this whole "we need bodyguards protecting X Role" is bunk, as the only person we know is what role is The Director.

If the town tells the bodyguard to protect person X, he has no choice but to comply. If the guy he protected dies, we lynch him.

On the other hand, I did not consider that the Field Agent is a vig-type role in addition to being a bodyguard (and a whole bunch of other things we don't really want in the hands of scum), so the "assign scummish players bodyguard duty" plan might need some work.

However, when I did the read-through, Guardian seemed like a bit of an impulsive nutjob to me, so I don't want him in charge either. He seems to judge people waaayyy too quickly for my liking.

How about this idea?

vote: Albert B. Rampage for director.

I know from personal experience that Albert B. Rampage is an even bigger nutjob than Guardian. He is a reckless, thoughtless, gambiting kind of player, and I'd rather pull all my hair out individually than see him with a role as paramount as Director. Regardless of his alignment.

I'll do a thorough read-through today or tomorrow to answer my own questions. Glad we got the deadline extended.

[CrashTextDummie]

Mod: Could you please outline in detail what actions each role can take, and what effect each action has, if it's not too much hassle. Editing the first post would suffice.

[CrashTextDummie]

However, we can't direct all the field agents; we've got at least 4 people we want to protect (counter-intellegence+3 cryptos, and perhaps others) and only 3 bodyguards to do it, so we'd probably want at least some of the field agents to not annoucne their choices to keep the scum guessing. Which means that not ALL of the field agents can be scummy looking people.

One possibility would be to assign one Field Agent to bodyguard all the Cryptos. That Field Agent would have to privately announce to the Director who he's protecting, but leave the rest of the town in the dark. That way, it would be a significant gambit for the scum to target one of the Cryptos, as there's a good chance their kill will go to waste. The Director could even arrange for Intel to be sent to that protected Crypto, to eliminate the chance of losing Intel.

Obviously, we'd have to be absolutely certain the Director is town for this to work.

[CrashTextDummie]

Actually, if the Director has to privately direct intel to the protected Crypto, he can't screw us over even as scum unless the person giving the intel AND the Field Agent is scum as well.

(unless I've missed something, I didn't really think this one through)

[CrashTextDummie]

As I said, I don't think there's much room for abuse.

I agree that putting that much trust into a single player, whether scum or town, may not be a good idea, though.

[CrashTextDummie]

The analyst is not the only role providing intel. And we can assign a Field Agent to protect the analyst.

The reason I brought the theory up in the first place is that we don't have enough Field Agents to protect as many roles as we'd like. The obvious solution is to have the Field Agents not announce who they're gonna protect, which presents a problem as the current plan is to have the scummy types as field agents.

[CrashTextDummie]

I agree that starting the game off with a White House Liason is a good idea.

[quote="Yosarian"]So, if everything goes right and nothing is ever disrupted, it's basically 2 or 3 extra investigations; (3 extra if the game goes all the way to hour 23, which I'm thinking it probably won't). If the FBI liason gets intrupted for whatever reason a time or two, then the payoff gets smaller.

Basically, it might be marginally worthwhile in theory to put someone as white house liason in order to get the FBI associate the extra investigations, but that's only if everything goes perfectly, and the scum could screw it up by killing off the white house liason before he's done. I don't think we can afford to put an extra bodyguard to protect him, it'll be hard enough to protect the 2 cops and the 3 cryptos.[quote]

The scum can screw with practically every plan we come up with (at least I haven't seen anything game-breaking yet), but they have limited resources as well. One killed White House Liason is one less Crypto/Director/etc. killed. Having a sped up Liason is an advantage we shouldn't just give away like that by not even trying it.

[CrashTextDummie]

Checking in.

I don't have time to do a reread now, but since deadline is supposed to hit today and I don't know if I can get anything substantiated in before it does, I'll provide a "LoT" (list of trust), purely based on gut feeling:

knows what he's doing, and is probably town

:
Yosarian2
UltimaAvalon

doesn't know what he's doing, but is probably town

:
Albert B. Rampage
Korran

knows what he's doing, but could very well be scum

:
Xdaamno
Guardian

in the middle/undecided

:
Spambot
Eyceking
Off the Mark

don't trust

:
ChannelDelibird
YogurtBandit

This list is for reference for the future Director.

I can probably place Spambot, Eyceking and Off the Mark better once I reread.

For now, all that's left to do for me is to

unvote, vote: Yosarian2

[CrashTextDummie]

knows what he's doing, and is probably town

:
CrashTextDummie

When did that happen?

Albert:

You forgot me. Clear proof that you don't know what you're doing.

[CrashTextDummie]

The most important question to me right now is when to start lynching people.

Theoretically, we could lynch a maximum of 8 people (unless my math is off, which it very well could be), and I seriously doubt we're gonna need that many, or even be able to make as many.

Considering the significant amount of time we've spent on developing a set-up that includes roles for everyone, I personally don't think we should lynch anyone before we've had some info pouring in. On the other hand, twiddling our thumbs for the first couple of days doesn't really sound appealing to me either.

Thoughts?

[CrashTextDummie]

CTD, can you confirm you've started an investigation, at least? If not, I might have to put someone else in that position, as can not afford to have one of our cops sitting around doing nothing.

Yeah, I started an investigation back in Hour 1.

They Cant kill yet...

Since you didn't bother explaining this apparent knowledge, I'm gonna assume it was a scum-slip.

Vote: YogurtBandit

[CrashTextDummie]

Of the people on the YB lynch, I find Spambot the most suspicious.

Well, Yogurt has completely spazzed out. I thought the "scum can't kill yet" comment was a scum slip, and I don't buy his recent "don't lynch me because I am pro-town" bit.

I really hope my gut isn't wrong here.

Vote: YogurtBandit

The underlined part is what sets off my scumdar. That's not the kind of thinking I'd expect to see from a townie when hammering, but it's a fairly common ruse used by scum who knowingly send a townie to his death.

Eyceking is also suspicious for placing a FoS shortly before he applied his vote. Where you waiting for the town's reaction first to see if it was a safe wagon to jump on?

Frozen Atlantic is becoming kind of an irritation. Is the roleplaying absolutely necessary? Right now I'm seeing it more as an opportunity to insert fluff into your post, and overall a detriment to the town.

I need to reread before I can contribute to the ongoing speculations and theory discussions, but feel perfectly capable of placing a

Vote: Spambot

[CrashTextDummie]

I have to say, Yos, that was some shitty timing.

[CrashTextDummie]

For all I know, my investigation didn't finish. Guardian should be able to answer this though.

[CrashTextDummie]

For the record, I was investigating Guardian, which is why I was particularly miffed since my result would have been invalidated even if Guardian received the info I've worked 4 hours to get, which seems not to be the case.

Since it doesn't seem like we'll be getting an investigation on him anytime soon now, I'm much more open about the idea of lynching Guardian. I'll do a dedicated reread on him before the deadline hits.

[CrashTextDummie]

Since they were pulled off their jobs at the END of the forth hour, shouldn't the investigations finish and they are pulled off their jobs simultaneously at the end of hour 4?

I didn't get a result, and neither did Guardian, as far as I know (although I don't think he has officially confirmed this as of yet).

There's something I think we should discuss:
So far, we've been going for the "lynch all scum" win condition, while pretty much neglecting the "find the bomb" win condition. It appears that the scum have decided to do just the opposite:
It's pretty obvious to me that the scum have yielded their nightkill in order to hack Yos' computer, and they did it not to tip the town/scum ratio in their favor, but to hurt Jack while simultaneously obstructing our scum hunting efforts. This heavily implies that they are not trying to get a majority, but to win the game by killing Jack/keeping us from finding the bomb.

And I currently don't see a reason why they shouldn't be able to pull this stunt (or a similar one) again - it makes only sense from a game design point of view to give the scum the power to pursue both win conditions just like we have.

Therefore, I think there are 2 questions we have to consider:
1. Should we stop concentrating on just one win condition, and start putting resources towards keeping Jack safe and helping him find the bomb in addition to scum hunting?

I personally think the answer is yes. So far, we're down one townie and have gathered zero useful cop info as far as I'm aware. Considering we're already 1 quarter into the game, that's pretty bad. And we're at least another 5 hours away from getting anything in that regard, and only if (and it's a big if) the scum don't fuck us over again.

On the other hand, the scum have already hurt Jack, and just blindly sending him out to arbitrary places is bound to do more harm than good in my opinion.

2. Is there any way we can stop another hacking attempt, or other unforseen scum shenanigans?

We have tools to stop nightkills, and battle the scum on the traditional win condition. Do we have tools to mess with them on the other front as well? I'm only really familiar with my own role (or rather my ex- and soon to be again role), so I trust each one of you to know this better than I do. If you have suggestions on that front, speak up please.

As far as lynching is concerned, I could go for either Spambot or FA at this point. I'm leaning towards town for Guardian.

NOTE: I will be leaving for a 2-week vacation on Saturday, and I probably won't have access during that time. Considering the stringent (*cough*) deadlines in this game, replacing me seems inevitable. I'll be around until then, but the mod should probably start looking for a replacement.