NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

[AxleGreaser]

oh the explanation comes the following post

TLDR:
basically i think TSO is lying, and scum because of that.
he has no scum read on Aneninen, especially not one based on actually reading the thread.
He was asked to show me posts that were so bad they cant come from a town Anenenen
he did
no he claims he didnt.

If nothing else LAL.

He did claim reasons for scumread earlier, so this is basically moot. He just didn't readily reprovide them.

I am not quite sure what you mean by he did provide them before.
If you read my earlier exchange with TSO.
I checked if i had his case, he agreed.

Spoiler: what he agreed his case was

You got your day of grace, Aneninen, it's gone.

Unvote
Vote: Aneninen

TSO can you walk me through where this vote comes from. I cant find it.

[spoiler2=Yep you dont like his case on you]

TSO. What I don't like is here:
304–306 – it's just a feeling but these seemed to be fake.
381

"I don't lurk as scum. Aneninen, Cho, Egg, Thor and Pere have all seen my scumgame when it's working decently. You can ask them."

383

"I really don't agree with anything Aneninen is saying right now."

– soooo, if I posted I knew how you played as scum would you disagree with me? ^_^
400 – whattafukk was that bullshyt? A quote-wall which contains nothing from or about me and asking Thor about me? How does that make sense? (402 – what kind of explanation was that?

"That quote string is me going through the thread convinced I was right - ignore it."

– What did you examine?)

That's trash.

#304 - It's your opinion, you might be entitled to it - but it's wrong.
#381 - What possible problem could you have with this? Are you reading what you're posting?
#383 - What the hell is this meant to mean? I have literally no problem with you talking about the scum game of mine you played in. Is this meant to make me look scummy or something?
#400 - Get this, right? You see that quote string?

Those were the posts I was looking at!

No, really!

[/spoiler2]

[spoiler2=earlier you didnt agree with anything he was saying.]

I really don't agree with anything Aneninen is saying right now.

[/spoiler2]

I think by inference you have played with him before, does you disagreeing with his reads surprise you even if hes town?

You've literally got everything there which made him vote-worthy. Randomly accusing me of doing stuff he didn't like, and when I checked it out they made no fucking sense at all. I hadn't really agreed with anything he said so far and that was the final straw for me, really.

does you disagreeing with his reads surprise you even if hes town?

I'm not 100% sure I'm interpreting this right, but you can ask again if you have to.

I have no problem with people's reads differing from mine as long as they can back them up. I might try to change their opinion, sure, but at least they have a rational explanation for disagreeing with me. I do not feel Aneninen has ever produced something remotely like this; hence, he is scummy to me.

So then I wanted him to justify that position with examples from the thread. 1031 made even more clear here 1048

He did claim reasons for scumread earlier, so this is basically moot. He just didn't readily reprovide them.

You are wrong.
No. This is not the case.

At this point he has not provided actual examples of specific posts he read in the thread, that are the basis of his scum read.
That is what I asked.

He failed to provide those, not reprovide them

What he did do was post this waste of space 1055
he has described the first post that he chose in that group as "when it's obviously not fucking scummy"
So why exactly is it that he is posting obviously not fucking scummy posts in a reply asking for which posts caused him to have his read?

He still hasnt as far as i have seen explained which posts caused him to have that original read.
(I am not properly up to date, since my VLA post)

[AxleGreaser]

AxelGreaser: Do you find TSO backing off on his wagon to be alignment-indicative. If so, which way do you see it moving?

That is the weirdest shit I have ever seen in a Mafia game. It feels wrong.
(I am probably not going to be able to say why or what.)

I have read it several times since I got back. That is not helping.

I see it moving towards sleep, I need some of that.

@Anyone who happens to know (save me finding it)
What neighbourhood is TSO in?

[The Fonz]

There was, of course, the added bonus that an unspecified reaction test can make newbier scum paranoid. Or anyone, really.
On that note, your curiosity about it was interesting. Thor's was even more interesting.

Hang, on. Unpack this. "On that note" implies that my curiosity, and Thor's, is in some way

related

to the fact that reaction tests make newbie scum nervous.

f I'm wrong and he's just derping around, then that still points to a lack of scumhunting intent.

exactly how long have you been on this site? You know well enough that people joke around and that not everything is serious. You could prob find any game and comb through it and find posts that "lack scumhunting intent". Its a really weak accusation.

Well, of course you can find posts that lack scumhunting intent. Because every game has scum. Lack of scumhunting intent is the single best day one scumtell. Lurkers lurk, VIs post things that don't make sense, CAPSRAGE players CAPSRAGE. The single best indicator of town before you start having flips and wagon analysis and night actions to work with is "Who appears to be really trying to find scum?" There's also a different between derping about in RVS, and derping about 300+ posts in.

he's saying that a fake Boon vote is bad, because it should have been a REAL Boon vote? That would be alright.

That's exactly what I think he was saying.

PerV

, is this true? If so it changes my view of the post a bit.

I find this hard to believe.

I don't think I'm the only player in this thread that finds #385 to not be scummy. Can you remind me of your company that finds #385 scummy?

Nope, because Appeal to Majority is a fallacy for a reason. I find it hard to believe you see it otherwise because it stuck out like a sore thumb to me, not because of what anyone else said.

No, I'm obviously not lying. I mean it's fairly clear from the timeline of my posting that I was in the process of catching up. Some talk =/= obvious leading wagon. You're trying to paint me as piling on a PV lynch. BS.

This is like the second or third time you've said something about catching up. I don't think being a replacement entitles you to leeway. I still think that Pv being voted and talked about shows that he was a wagon (or atleast potentially 1) I think your "catchup" defending tobys vote and a vote on PV is fairly suspicious. I guess I can't "prove" anything but it doesn't look protown to me in the slightest.

Defending Toby's vote? Nope. I say like one sentence, that I like it. The point there is not to talk about Toby, it's to talk about the fact I find you suspicious, for pretty much the same reasons. Endorsing the attack on you, rather than defend it from some theoretical heat she hadn't received for it. I don't get what you're saying by "At least potentially one." I'd have expected him to be 'potentially' one because he was scummy. My reaction was because you seemed to imply that I knew the full game state and was deliberately piling onto the leading wagon, as opposed to voting for PV because he was outstandingly scummy.

Why did you vote without being caught up and/or reading the last vc?

To make clear that I found PV scummy enough off #385 that it absolutely couldn't wait. Large game, so fairly unlikely anyone was particularly close to lynch.

but you saying "pv knew why Thor was voting Cas=//=PV knew why Thor was voting Cas"
show me proof that PV knew why Thor was voting Cas.

That's obviously an impossible task, and you know it - I'm not inside Thor's head, so can't 'prove' anything. The point being that PerV was asking Thor to explain what the problem with csareo was. Anyone with eyes could see that Csareo was a mammoth VI, taking everything super-literally, and kicking up a massive cloud of dust. Therefore, it looked like PV was playing dumb.

Because I don't count votes in my head as I

re

-read, I look for scummy things. Obviously I wasn't entirely unaware some people had expressed some suspicion. But the Thor/Peregrine hatefest begins pretty much precisely from the point at which I paused my

re

-read.

Why are you calling it a re-read here?

I mistyped. Meh. Please don't nitpick.

@Flubber: The point is that PV tried to push an outstandingly reachy 'slip' suggestion, based on Thor's belief that it's safe to assume multiball. It's just obviously much, much more likely that Thor sincerely held the belief he expressed, that most games over 21 players have multiple scum factions. What matters here is that PV openly admits that Thor isn't the kind of player likely to scumslip! Then he acts as if him showing that Thor was

mistaken

about the prevalence of multiscum in larges is the same as Thor having insider knowledge.

@TSO: Please comment on what I said about Anen.

[Flubbernugget]

My issue with Thor isn't that he's arguing with PV; it's that he isn't scumhunting him. There's a variety of PV scum tells out there (other people have touched upon them), that Thor has barely touched. Why?

Even if Thor isn't scum, this wagon needs a lot more scrutiny than it's getting.

[The Fonz]

Well, let's be clear - which things PV has done do you think are legitimately scumtells that Thor ought to be talking about?

[Thor665]

I could continue to argue with you, but I've seen this before. Plus, you've managed to evolve your case/vote from 376 to 477 to whatever this is supposed to be. But, like the Scripten vote, overreaction to speculation is just not a town thing.

At least now you understand my case enough to vote me over it, I suppose this is progress.

I like Thor. I'm gonna trust him.

Thor, why do you townread scripten?

It is difficult to put into words, but I liked his aggressiveness paired with being open about the idea he didn't have strong reads.

[The Fonz]

I could continue to argue with you, but I've seen this before. Plus, you've managed to evolve your case/vote from 376 to 477 to whatever this is supposed to be. But, like the Scripten vote, overreaction to speculation is just not a town thing.

At least now you understand my case enough to vote me over it, I suppose this is progress.
.

I feel the opposite. If PV thought you were scummy enough to vote, he should have done that a long time ago.

[Thor665]

To be honest, you should probably read the comment from me you quoted with a fair bit of sarcasm to it.

[goodmorning]

What reaction tests have you tried in the recent past, and how did those play out?

I don't often reaction test, and I don't remember having done any recently.
I don't particularly want to sift through my old games for hours to find any.

If Null or Towny - are any of the counter wagons remotely on scummy players? Vote them then.

You're Scum and all the potential wagons are on Town, is that it?
Did I guess right?

It's OK, you don't have to tell anyone.

^This is forced as hell. You are clearly grasping at whatever you can find to make Thor look like scum. He's actually right. A week may seem like forever, but if in 3-4 RL days, Pere is still around L-5 like he was at the time of that post (admittedly 3 RL days ago), and he gets rush wagoned and claims something not very lynchable, there aren't really other options at that point without an extreme flash wagon. Or, if maybe the rush wagon doesn't come. Now we are kind of fucked. Really, the three wagons at L-9 that Thor pointed out should be either voting Pere or consolidating if they are sure Pere is town.

The time to compromise is now, not 72 hours from deadline.

Did I say, anywhere, that he wasn't right about the voting situation? No. The post was originally going to be something snippy about how I didn't like any of the counterwagons either. I decided sarcastic would be more fun, especially since I'd mentioned that I found those folks Town a bit earlier.
Bolded: I'm not sure I like this assertion. It doesn't read "making sure we all get shit done in a timely manner". It reads "making sure we compromise... onto my top wagon, of course."

I remember someone mentioning that TSO could have fought Csaero for the sake of noise, but I don't remember them complaining about the PV\Thor noise. Has my memory failed me?

This is a lot more astute than I gave you credit for. I hadn't actually thought of that.
But I agree.

VOTE: Pere

I like Thor. I'm gonna trust him.

In which universe does liking someone make them Town?

Ughhh I almost want to lynch you for being useless.

Unfortunately for you both, since I'm town, and

scum being in our hood

means it's one of you (or both when multi-ball happens-right, Thor? ), so hopefully

the vig

will take care of that tonight.

Why assume these?

There was, of course, the added bonus that an unspecified reaction test can make newbier scum paranoid. Or anyone, really.
On that note, your curiosity about it was interesting. Thor's was even more interesting.

Hang, on. Unpack this. "On that note" implies that my curiosity, and Thor's, is in some way

related

to the fact that reaction tests make newbie scum nervous.

Not really. Sentences are interesting that way.

[TierShift]

It is difficult to put into words, but I liked his aggressiveness paired with being open about the idea he didn't have strong reads.

Do you mean defensiveness? He got all egged on when iza called him out on having not so strong reads.

Not having strong reads isn't town or anything.

You got something better?

[Thor665]

No, I do not mean defensiveness (and I don't particularly find that a scumtell either)

No, I stated my reasons for townreading him already.

[The Fonz]

To be honest, you should probably read the comment from me you quoted with a fair bit of sarcasm to it.

Fair enough. Delayed OMGUS is a scumtell, though.

[The Fonz]

What reaction tests have you tried in the recent past, and how did those play out?

I don't often reaction test, and I don't remember having done any recently.
I don't particularly want to sift through my old games for hours to find any.

That's fine. Oddly, the willingness to admit you're playing contrary to meta reads town.

[Thor665]

I don't really think it qualifies as OMGUS because he has a stated reason, though I find the stated reason bad.

As I see it the issue is in his last post he was asking me what my case is because he didn't understand it, and I linked it. Now he has no discussion of that, no questions, no followup, but he does quote a post wherein I describe the case (and in no particular way differently from how I have been describing it for days to multiple people) and suddenly it is vote worthy. To my mind that is the awkwardness there.

[The Fonz]

That's probably a semantic distinction. What I consider to be scummy is to vote for a player who has consistently been attacking you, based on the way they're attacking you, but after it's been going on for a while.

The reason for this is people who genuinely think they're being attacked with bullshit tend to countervote pretty quickly, while scum will sometimes wait to see if the pressure will go away by itself, or if a less OMGUS-sounding reason to justify it will come along, or if anyone else will attack the attacker to give them cover. In this case, all three seem to apply: You're clearly not ever going to unvote him, Flubber has come in and started pressuring you, and he's come up with a brand new reason to justify the vote (brilliantly, that you have new reasons to justify yours).

[Thor665]

I can agree with that - I do think it's incredibly suspect that he is noting a 'change' of my case by quoting two cases (one of which is a vote with no case presented) and noting how stuff has changed...when both of those posts from me come prior to his multiball tell. It's like, really, no? Thor's reasoning shifted after the mutliball thing? You don't say!

[T S O]

I'm talking about Aneninen when I finish my re-read.

Axle's case is still awful and he really shouldn't be allowed to do nothing but push it in lieu of actually, I don't know, scumhunting.

[Aneninen]

As for the recent events.

(1) Just as I've expected. TSO was going on with my "case", regardless of the fact that I didn't post too much content. It seems that he's been using me as a "reference point". I mean, he's reading everyone by examining the players' attitude towards his Aneninen-read. This is utterly anti-town. If he were a relatively new player I'd think that his gameplay is simply silly. But, as far as I know, TSO is said to be an expert. In his case it's scummy.
Some examples: 1155–1157, 1203, 1206, 1212, 1216, 1229, 1293, and finally, 1391. I don't understand 1331/1332.

Even others noticed this phenomenon. Eg. Thor (1158), Tiershift in 1191, Fonz in 1227, Davesaz in 1236

(1.1) Also, I was curious whether anyone would notice that I had posted things I hadn't like about TSO

before

the post he had been quoting all the time. Eg. Tiershift

did

notice it in 1221 (it appears again in 1234). Also Fonz in 1294. I mean, 418 was an

addition

to my previous posts. My FoS on TSO started by the time he was interacting with Csareo. You all can check it out. I strongly think that TSO has been ignoring that part intentionally.

(2) Thor's 1158 made me think.

"@TSO - your current rage posting is not helping

me

with much."

– I wonder what that "me" meant. In general, it seems that Thor has been losing plenty of town-credit. Maybe I should examine this progression later.

(3) Tiershift's scumhunting and game-reading seems to be genuine. Eg. 1165/1166, 1175,
Hm. He mentioned Scripten's "current events" part in 1178. It's strange that Scripten had left out plenty of things, eg. the TSO/Aneninen event. I wonder, why.

(4) Same goes for Egg, eg. 1173. (He also find the post from Garmr he quoted there strange. I knew that Garmr had ignored my answer so as to keep scumreading me but I didn't point it out because I thought it wouldn't have made any difference.)

(5) It's hard to read Nero. Sometimes his posts are contentful, sometimes I don't know what to think. Eg. in 1179

"I'd also help you guys pl TSO. *hint hint*"

– as far as I know, pl = policy lynch. How would that help the town? (Even if it'd be TSO?!) In contrast, 1186 – the thing Nero mentioned was indeed a WTF!

(6) Peregrinev has some points too. Eg. the end of 1182. I still think he's likely scum though and he's trying to "throw in" other topics so as to "elude". (I'm pretty unsure about this latter one.) Peregrinev should stop talking about that multiball-topic. I don't think we could get anything new out of that.

(7) Boonskiies's softclaim. I don't know what to think. It might have come from a newb-town (I don't think it was a good idea) or a scum who wanted to get a free pass.

(8) Davesaz, 1220 see the TSO part for answers. Also, I don't think your footnote was too significant. (739)

(9) Flubber, welcome to the Game. Are there reasons for 1337? Okay, I found some later but I'd like to see more. And more reads on others too.

_____

I know I've left out plenty of things but for now, that's all. As always, I'm open to

sensible

communication.

[Scripten]

Literally nobody replied to any of the questions I posed earlier. Aeronaut is the only one who hasn't posted since. Reposting them.

Aeronaut: You said you'd be back from VL/A yesterday. Any news on that front? I would like to see your thoughts on the various back-and-forths that have been coming around.

AxelGreaser: Do you find TSO backing off on his wagon to be alignment-indicative. If so, which way do you see it moving? Also, hypothetical question. Let's say you had to start a wagon on a player who's not got any votes on them currently. Who would you choose and why?

Boonskiies: You still feeling that Cho vote? I'd like to see you put your vote to use or at least push the person you're voting for. Frankly, I'd like to see Cho actually play the game, fwiw.

Boonskiies:

You moved your vote to sheep Thor pretty quickly after I asked you about your Cho vote. Did my question drive you to examine your vote?

(3) Tiershift's scumhunting and game-reading seems to be genuine. Eg. 1165/1166, 1175,
Hm. He mentioned Scripten's "current events" part in 1178. It's strange that Scripten had left out plenty of things, eg. the TSO/Aneninen event. I wonder, why.

I mentioned it. I said that it was a bunch of tunneling that didn't give me any sort of alignment-indicative reads, save for the very end when TSO finally backed off on his case on you. I tried to ask AxleGreaser about it since he was also slightly involved in the interaction, but he just dodged the question.

Okay, scripten's ISO is weak as fuck. There's a distinct lack of opinions other than 'Pere is sooo scummy' for reasons unexplained. So scripten, I want those reasons now.

I've played with townscripten; he clearly explained his reads and had an opinion on everything. Not seeing that here.

Except that game was significantly different in context. It was, for one thing, a micro and not a large. Far fewer people to actually engage with. We also

lost

that game, and most likely in no small part due to my play. While meta isn't wholly useless, I don't think a 1-to-1 comparison is going to help much in this game, since I'm still relatively new and I'm constantly reassessing my playstyle.

Also, PereV felt obviously scummy to me. His naked vote and obvious sheeping of Izar (Who's been a fairly minor part of the game since.) were something, but it was really his reaction to Thor's push on him that made me vote him. The multiball discussion, at least from Thor's side, was not actually about multiball. It was calling out PereV on -really- scummy play. The more Thor pushed, the more PereV tried to keep the discussion on MB and setup speculation, just to push his idea that Thor should be auto-lynched if the game turned out to be multiball. I'm just amazed that so few people really caught on to it.

And yes, I realize that I'm mostly sheeping Thor's case. However, with there being so many people in this game, it's a lot tougher to push individual cases. I'm attempting to circumvent that by engaging players who have not really been pushed very much so far. I have a hunch that smarter scum will be lurking pretty hard this early on.

AxelGreaser: Do you find TSO backing off on his wagon to be alignment-indicative. If so, which way do you see it moving?

That is the weirdest shit I have ever seen in a Mafia game. It feels wrong.
(I am probably not going to be able to say why or what.)

I have read it several times since I got back. That is not helping.

I see it moving towards sleep, I need some of that.

@Anyone who happens to know (save me finding it)
What neighbourhood is TSO in?

...Are you serious? I'm asking you to tell me if you found anything alignment-indicative in a current event. That is not a weird question and there is absolutely no excuse not to answer it.

Also, answer the other part of my post. I'm NOT liking your play so far.

[Garmr]

(4) Same goes for Egg, eg. 1173. (He also find the post from Garmr he quoted there strange. I knew that Garmr had ignored my answer so as to keep scumreading me but I didn't point it out because I thought it wouldn't have made any difference.)

*Sneezes* Sorry I'm allergic to bs. If you really did see same thing as egg(which I answered to egg) I guarantee you would of said something because that hasn't stopped you in the past.

[TierShift]

but it was really his reaction to Thor's push on him that made me vote him. The multiball discussion, at least from Thor's side, was not actually about multiball. It was calling out PereV on -really- scummy play. The more Thor pushed, the more PereV tried to keep the discussion on MB and setup speculation, just to push his idea that Thor should be auto-lynched if the game turned out to be multiball. I'm just amazed that so few people really caught on to it.

Okay, so you really voted pere for his reaction to thor's push. What exactly was scummy in his response other than 'lynch thor if MB'?

[T S O]

Using a hard scumread as the basis for my reads is actually quite a solid tactic, Anen, and it's really not indicative one way or another.

[Scripten]

but it was really his reaction to Thor's push on him that made me vote him. The multiball discussion, at least from Thor's side, was not actually about multiball. It was calling out PereV on -really- scummy play. The more Thor pushed, the more PereV tried to keep the discussion on MB and setup speculation, just to push his idea that Thor should be auto-lynched if the game turned out to be multiball. I'm just amazed that so few people really caught on to it.

Okay, so you really voted pere for his reaction to thor's push. What exactly was scummy in his response other than 'lynch thor if MB'?

"Lynch Thor if MB" wasn't really the response. That was just what prompted it.

It was the way in which he responded in general. Notice how Thor and others (including myself) are saying that it doesn't matter if the setup is MB or, his push was wrong due to being based on non-alignment-related opinion. Eventually the conversation drifted into PereV's push and the way he would segue into talking setup whenever the topic drifted from it. Thor's (1364) summarizes the deflective way PereV switched things around.

Hell, even when he made out like he was going to change the subject (627), he just goes right back into speculation. We've got almost 60 pages of empty posts, potential scum that are hiding behind 1v1 arguments/tunneling (Scum love those!) and evasive/dodgy persons. PereV, (not just) in my opinion, has been fostering this atmosphere and reeks of scumminess for it.

[Aneninen]

(3) Tiershift's scumhunting and game-reading seems to be genuine. Eg. 1165/1166, 1175,
Hm. He mentioned Scripten's "current events" part in 1178. It's strange that Scripten had left out plenty of things, eg. the TSO/Aneninen event. I wonder, why.

I mentioned it. I said that it was a bunch of tunneling that didn't give me any sort of alignment-indicative reads, save for the very end when TSO finally backed off on his case on you. I tried to ask AxleGreaser about it since he was also slightly involved in the interaction, but he just dodged the question.

Mhm, that can be a possible interpretation of those lines. I might have misread your post.

Using a hard scumread as the basis for my reads is actually quite a solid tactic, Anen, and it's really not indicative one way or another.

Having an adamantite read on Day1 is rare, not backing a read with strong reasons is strange. Plenty of other players have questioned your reads. What will you do if you manage to get me lynched and I flip town? Have you been thinking about that yet? What will happen to your "solid tactic" in that case?

[AxleGreaser]

Axle's case is still awful and he really shouldn't be allowed to do nothing but push it in lieu of actually, I don't know, scumhunting.

PKB