NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #1250 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:07 pm

Post by Scripten »

Nero Cain wrote:Whats weird about it? Seems like it would be basic logic.


I guess I just don't see the link between the size of the scumteam and whether or not the game has multiple scumteams. (Or are we including SKs in that definition?) Or are there other aspects I'm missing?

Also, time to engage some new peeps.

Aeronaut:
You said you'd be back from VL/A yesterday. Any news on that front? I would like to see your thoughts on the various back-and-forths that have been coming around.

AxelGreaser:
Do you find TSO backing off on his wagon to be alignment-indicative. If so, which way do you see it moving? Also, hypothetical question. Let's say you had to start a wagon on a player who's not got any votes on them currently. Who would you choose and why?

Boonskiies:
You still feeling that Cho vote? I'd like to see you put your vote to use or at least push the person you're voting for. Frankly, I'd like to see Cho actually play the game, fwiw.
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Post Post #1251 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:18 pm

Post by Garmr »

In post 1249, Nero Cain wrote:Whats weird about it? Seems like it would be basic logic.


I had a game were the scum team legit thought me and my mason partner were another scum team. I was also the vig the game was called mini 1523 viscon desert.
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Post Post #1252 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:20 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 1250, Scripten wrote:I guess I just don't see the link between the size of the scumteam and whether or not the game has multiple scumteams. (Or are we including SKs in that definition?) Or are there other aspects I'm missing?

multiball is traditionally 2 mafia teams and that's the context that I've been using it in. Its a 21 player game and there's only going to be like 5 or 6 scum max. If its a 4 or 5 player team then you know there's not going to be another. If its 2 then you know there's going to be another. 3, maybe.

This is very basic game logic and I'm not sure this is a scum whine or a new player just being new and not understanding.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #1253 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:32 pm

Post by Boonskiies »

There's a reason I soft claimed and not full claimed. I never usually can stay active during large games early phase, so I believed if I hinted at my role a little, it would cause some discussion and allow myself to not seem like I'm not putting anything forward. It has created discussion, and therefore I feel as it was a success. Day 2 I should be much more useful.
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Post Post #1254 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:45 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 1213, TierShift wrote:Oh hey, I forgot.

So it goes like this:
1. Anen calls you scum for reasons
2. You refute said reasons
3. Anen ignores you refuting said reasons
4. Anen is scum?

I didn't bother to check if 1-3 are correct,
but there is still a major disconnect between 3 and 4
.

no, not really....

scum ignoring things is a thing. Yeah hw could be town and didn't see it right off but I don't think its some cray cray leap in logic to think the guy "ignoring" you is scum.
In post 1226, Thor665 wrote:Until then - you are playing poorly.

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edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #1255 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:47 pm

Post by Thor665 »

Oh, look, none of my town reads have a wagon on them, fancy that.

Want to discuss my scum case on Pere that you asked for? I find that conversation potentially interesting.
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Post Post #1256 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:48 pm

Post by Thor665 »

Or you can quote me calling you an SK.

I know Pere decided to act like I had, but I was saddened you decided to repeat him and act like he was remotely a reliable source of info.
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Post Post #1257 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:53 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

eh, I might go through your ISO and look but even if PV was scum I don't think he'd "lie" that you called me an sk.

but that was complete junk about me talking about the sk or whatever silly thing you said.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #1258 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:00 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

your case on PV is that:
he has bad reads
you feel he lied to you
and he thought you were scummy for bringing up MB?
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #1259 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:07 pm

Post by Scripten »

In post 1252, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 1250, Scripten wrote:I guess I just don't see the link between the size of the scumteam and whether or not the game has multiple scumteams. (Or are we including SKs in that definition?) Or are there other aspects I'm missing?

multiball is traditionally 2 mafia teams and that's the context that I've been using it in. Its a 21 player game and there's only going to be like 5 or 6 scum max. If its a 4 or 5 player team then you know there's not going to be another. If its 2 then you know there's going to be another. 3, maybe.

This is very basic game logic and I'm not sure this is a scum whine or a new player just being new and not understanding.


I've played in games that were larger and had a small scumteam with an SK or two to balance things out on other sites. I'm not wholly aware of normal setups here.
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Post Post #1260 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:32 pm

Post by goodmorning »

In post 1255, Thor665 wrote:Oh, look, none of my town reads have a wagon on them, fancy that.

Do they not have a wagon because you townread them, or do you townread them because they don't have a wagon, I wonder.

In post 1259, Scripten wrote:
In post 1252, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 1250, Scripten wrote:I guess I just don't see the link between the size of the scumteam and whether or not the game has multiple scumteams. (Or are we including SKs in that definition?) Or are there other aspects I'm missing?

multiball is traditionally 2 mafia teams and that's the context that I've been using it in. Its a 21 player game and there's only going to be like 5 or 6 scum max. If its a 4 or 5 player team then you know there's not going to be another. If its 2 then you know there's going to be another. 3, maybe.

This is very basic game logic and I'm not sure this is a scum whine or a new player just being new and not understanding.

I've played in games that were larger and had a small scumteam with an SK or two to balance things out on other sites. I'm not wholly aware of normal setups here.

ADDING TO THIS
As a general rule of thumb, the number of non-Town players will be somewhere between 20-30% of the playerlist. There are games with more (think 2-1-6 Micros or insane Large Themes), but that's usually it. So we're looking at a number of antiTown players that will be no less than 4 and no more than 7. If it is 7 it'll be 3-3-1-14, possibly with Vig, to give a fair chance of crosskills (this is because 7 would push the bounds of balance). If it's 4 then it's much more likely to be a single reasonably well-powered scumteam vs a weaker Town. Anything in between could vary pretty drastically.

Multiple 3rd parties are not unheard of but are unusual, so probably not anything like 4-1-1-15.
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Post Post #1261 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:48 pm

Post by TierShift »

In post 1236, davesaz wrote:
  • In 223, I don't think Anen has a read at all, and is asking why other people are scum reading you.
  • In 241, Observing that your vote was not counted and you did nothing to fix it. Questioning that seems reasonable. I thought the same thing at the time (that it was odd you didn't fix the vote). If you really wanted your vote there, I would expect town to revote. Not revoting is something I might expect scum to use as an excuse later. You can point to the (bad) vote and say "see, I did think he was scummy" and perhaps get away with it.
  • In 250, Anen questions why you kept at Csareo so long, and attributes anti-town to the behavior. Then there is a followup thought that you might both be scum. It was around this point that I attributed the whole thing to anger, and others agreed with me.


I don't see anything wrong with the sequence from Anen. It's very easy to see town motivation in Anen's side of that sequence of events. You did something a little questionable, and drew suspicion as a result. What I'm not sure of is why you're continuing to make a big deal about it. I think Anen didn't even vote you until the last 24 hours, after you continued to poke at the subject. What's really mystifying is how you can think the original 3 posts you quoted were scummy, or more accurately how you can think that progression of reads is scummy.

thanks
In post 1239, T S O wrote:That's the thing, though - why didn't he vote me? I mean, he's been calling me scum all game - why did he feel the need to wait until Axle would back him up to go after me?

idk but that's not a scumtell, it's as easy for scum to just vote where their mouth lies as it is for town.
In post 1241, T S O wrote:Is being convinced you're wrong always a bit jarring, or is that just me?

yeah, it is. But you're convinced, which is a good thing.
In post 1246, Scripten wrote:
In post 1244, Garmr wrote:
In post 1179, Nero Cain wrote: "If it is multiball all you had to do was wait one day and you could of keeped it hidden from scum." is p silly. Scum already know if its mb or not.

Potential scumslip

I think nero just slipped he confirmed that scum know it's multiball


Ehhh... I called it out, but I'm not scumreading him too hard for it. Jumping on tiny things like that pushes mislynches. I disagree that it's worth calling it a scumslip.

P-Edit - TBH, even if it didn't have the "or not."

Another pointing-fingers post by scripten.
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Post Post #1262 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:18 pm

Post by The Fonz »

In post 1260, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1255, Thor665 wrote:Oh, look, none of my town reads have a wagon on them, fancy that.

Do they not have a wagon because you townread them, or do you townread them because they don't have a wagon, I wonder.


Do you really wonder? What would be the implications of either?
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Post Post #1263 (ISO) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 12:19 am

Post by T S O »

ugh
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #1264 (ISO) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:44 am

Post by goodmorning »

In post 1262, The Fonz wrote:
In post 1260, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1255, Thor665 wrote:Oh, look, none of my town reads have a wagon on them, fancy that.

Do they not have a wagon because you townread them, or do you townread them because they don't have a wagon, I wonder.

Do you really wonder? What would be the implications of either?

I don't wonder. I think it's likely to be a coincidence.
The implication of the former would be that Thor has a following, which is a mixed bag as far as the truth is concerned; he did pretty much start the Pere wagon, but does not currently have any real traction.
The implication of the latter would obviously be that Thor was taking the easy route. This isn't necessarily characteristic of Thor as either alignment.

Would you like to ask a more relevant question? Maybe, I dunno, participate a little?
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Post Post #1265 (ISO) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:20 am

Post by The Fonz »

^
Bad post. Not least the accusing a replacement who just got caught up of not contributing.

I'm not going to take lectures from you as to what is and isn't relevant, sorry. I asked because #1260 is either irrelevant to scumhunting (if you're implying that they're not being wagoned because Thor doesn't suspect them - that doesn't say anything about Thor's alignment) or a cheap attempt to insinuate that Thor's play is deficient/scummy, without actually coming out and saying it (if you're implying he's only going for popular suspects). Your last six posts have been a combination of pointless setup/theory talk, vague 'later' posts and annoying snidey-sarcasm-y things that don't advance the game. You need to shit or get off the pot - if you think Thor is ignoring things he as town ought to pursue, tell us who and what.

Also, your 'reaction test' has been going on for five days now. If it hasn't worked by now, it won't. Spill.
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Post Post #1266 (ISO) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:22 am

Post by The Fonz »

Oh, and it's also a false dichotomy - there's the obvious third option of 'Both Thor and others are not wagoning them because they're not scummy.'
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Post Post #1267 (ISO) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:25 am

Post by goodmorning »

If you just got caught up then why not post some reads? An opinion on Thor vs Pere? An opinion on TSO vs Anen? Literally anything but a weak question about a joke post?

It's sarcasm. My vote is on Thor, there's no need for insinuations. If I thought it was a scumtell I'd have said so.

I've run reaction tests way longer than 5 days. That said, it won't work, but that's because the player in question is gone.

P-EDIT: NO SHIT.
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Post Post #1268 (ISO) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:27 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 1258, Nero Cain wrote:your case on PV is that:
he has bad reads
you feel he lied to you
and he thought you were scummy for bringing up MB?

My case is more eloquent, but, yes, you have functionally simplified it down - though I think the third and the first point are the same point - as the only read I cited as bad enough to be scummy is the read involving multiball, and I have no other scumtell associated with the multiball point other than inability to defend his belief in it being scummy. I also would note the lie is one I said he directed at town in general, not me in particular, though I will agree I was amongst those he lied to.

In post 1260, goodmorning wrote:Do they not have a wagon because you townread them, or do you townread them because they don't have a wagon, I wonder.

:neutral:

Considering the only major wagon that exists is one that I built...what?
I mean, this doesn't even begin to make sense.
Though apparently you sorta agree it doesn't.

Why are you playing so terribly right now?
Should you be replacing out, or is this intentional?
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Post Post #1269 (ISO) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:27 am

Post by T S O »

In post 1267, goodmorning wrote:An opinion on Thor vs Pere? An opinion on TSO vs Anen?


What are yours?
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #1270 (ISO) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:29 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 1267, goodmorning wrote:If you just got caught up then why not post some reads? An opinion on Thor vs Pere? An opinion on TSO vs Anen? Literally anything but a weak question about a joke post?


Erm, I did.
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Post Post #1271 (ISO) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:33 am

Post by goodmorning »

In post 1268, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1260, goodmorning wrote:Do they not have a wagon because you townread them, or do you townread them because they don't have a wagon, I wonder.

:neutral:

Considering the only major wagon that exists is one that I built...what?
I mean, this doesn't even begin to make sense.
Though apparently you sorta agree it doesn't.

I literally cannot even begin to describe how hard this pinged.

Why are you playing so terribly right now?
Should you be replacing out, or is this intentional?

I have no real idea what you're talking about, but if this is an attempt to discredit me then I just got about 10000% more certain that I'm actually right.

In post 1269, T S O wrote:
In post 1267, goodmorning wrote:An opinion on Thor vs Pere? An opinion on TSO vs Anen?

What are yours?

My opinion on the former should be obvious.
I found the latter painful to read but it didn't significantly change my read on either of you.

P-EDIT: Did I miss entire swathes of relevant posting from you?
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Post Post #1272 (ISO) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:34 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 1267, goodmorning wrote:

I've run reaction tests way longer than 5 days. That said, it won't work, but that's because the player in question is gone.


Right. So now you can tell us who that player was, what parts of your play were the 'reaction test', and what reactions you expected from scum vs those you expected from town. Get to it.
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Post Post #1273 (ISO) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:34 am

Post by goodmorning »

Oh, just one relevant post. OK.
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Post Post #1274 (ISO) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:35 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 1271, goodmorning wrote:
P-EDIT: Did I miss entire swathes of relevant posting from you?


You either missed or are deliberately ignoring my post-readthrough post where I explain my Pere vote, question TSO over Anen and give a couple other reads, yes.
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