NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #1100 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:36 am

Post by Thor665 »

Okay.
Vote Pere?
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Post Post #1101 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:15 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 1100, Thor665 wrote:Okay.
Vote Pere?


Horrible idea.
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Post Post #1102 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:19 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 1072, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 1064, Thor665 wrote:And I told you I was buddying you - so you should react to that or not.

vote:Thor



Why Thor over Scripten?
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Post Post #1103 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:22 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 1085, Thor665 wrote:The issue is - you are right, TSO is talking a bit of gak and not backing it up.
However, I would like to point out that is exactly the case on Pere - exactly. Pere said something was scummy, then had to start talking in circles to back it up.
The only big difference is that TSO's thing...yeah, maybe he did decide to just generically fluff off about Anemian in a generic way.
Do you have an explanation for why Pere would do what he did?

Also, considering they are both the same case, and I agree with both of them - why *don't* you like my Pere case exactly?



I'll be the first to state I don't really understand your "Pere case".
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Post Post #1104 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:24 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 1103, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 1085, Thor665 wrote:The issue is - you are right, TSO is talking a bit of gak and not backing it up.
However, I would like to point out that is exactly the case on Pere - exactly. Pere said something was scummy, then had to start talking in circles to back it up.
The only big difference is that TSO's thing...yeah, maybe he did decide to just generically fluff off about Anemian in a generic way.
Do you have an explanation for why Pere would do what he did?

Also, considering they are both the same case, and I agree with both of them - why *don't* you like my Pere case exactly?



I'll be the first to state I don't really understand your "Pere case".


Granted, I was thinking , but I think you've came up with a different one.
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Post Post #1105 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:25 am

Post by Scripten »

In post 1093, Egg wrote:Scripten, why do you think knowing neighborhoods will be more useful later than now?


I can't give you any real specifics. I've never played with neighborhoods before. However, more information for town is usually a good thing. I also can't see the reveal being particularly anti-town, either. Unless scum get their own neighborhood (which seems like it'd be a little game breaking), they'll probably tell their team all about the composition of their individual hoods, anyway. While this may not cover every hood in the game, it would still be more information than town will have.

Current Events

Thor v. Nero Cain looks weird. I'm not sure I'm following what Thor was doing where he told Nero that he was buddying him, and I'm not sure why Nero took what Thor said as reason to vote him. (Yes, I realize that buddying is a scum tactic. I don't think it follows that claiming to be buddying someone is also a scum tactic.)

Axle's posts are really hard to read. Like.... super hard to understand. I don't think this is a scumtell, but it's definitely an annoying trait for any alignment. TSO doesn't read as scum to me, though I don't think his push on Aneninen is strong enough to justify a counter-wagon.
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Post Post #1106 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:42 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 1094, Thor665 wrote:

In post 1094, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1086, AxleGreaser wrote:While you state it is exactly the same, it really isn't from my point of view.

Given the knowledge I had, knowledge = (one bit is i have read my role PM, and another bit is I had very little idea that the game might reasonably likely be multiball.)
When he raised the point that perhaps you had TMI, it looked interesting to me, and I AM town. So its certain for me that it could look interesting to a towny.
My best guess was the odds on Thor making TMI slip like that as scum were so low that the towny explanation was bound to exist and Thor would know what it was whether he was town or scum.

Okay - would you have dodged explaining that if you were him?
If no - then how does this matter?
<---what is this point of this question. Rephrase it, because it sounds like you are telling Axel to "let it go"
.

I did say this.
Spoiler: Where I said that
In post 611, PeregrineV wrote:
-I think that you saying that this game is obviously multiple mafia teams implies some sort of inside knowledge of the setup that you did not relate to the thread at the start of the game. Most commonly, this is through a scum role designation of specific mafia (Blue, Red, Mafia A, etc.), and less commonly through a town role (Mafia A cop, Red Mafia Cop, etc.). However, I don't think it is in your nature to "slip", nor to be so bold nor so brazen about possibly having a scumrole. So, as stated before,
In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball (261 and 265) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.


In post 1094, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1086, AxleGreaser wrote:Also at one point, you were adding into your case that PereV didn't jump at the other speakers on Multiball. That was BS kinda in that their comments were very different.
They were very different worse in that they made them out of thin air, but yours was different in the level of certainty expressed. How you seemed to overlook those differences is ? to me.
Feels like stitching up, either via you tunnelling or otherwise.

My "certainty"?

Yes, as explaioned by Axel in .
Describe my certainty and how it is scummy, again.

Why do you need this explained again? Every explaination has you trying to twist it in some way.
How about you explain why it's not scummy to say "It's a safe assumption it's multiball." given all of the public knowledge.

Because what I said is "I find it safe to presume multiball" in answer to someone saying "if it's not multiball this logic makes sense"
We also showed, via research, that over 50% of Larges are multiball.

As defined by Thor, not by the wiki.

It also shows that I was using the term multiball to refer to SKs as the point was about scum/scum interaction.
So how is that "certain" in a scummy way?
Because Pere agrees with you - but he can't describe it to anyone.
Maybe you can help him out?

Actually, I did, even if poorly. Axle did it better and now you
still
don't understand how your comment can be construed as scummy?
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Post Post #1107 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:51 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 1103, PeregrineV wrote:I'll be the first to state I don't really understand your "Pere case".

Which part confuses you? I've explained it to others and had them agree what you did was scummy - so clearly the basic explanation exists and is cohesive. So where does it lose you?

In post 1106, PeregrineV wrote:
Describe my certainty and how it is scummy, again.

Why do you need this explained again? Every explaination has you trying to twist it in some way.
How about you explain why it's not scummy to say "It's a safe assumption it's multiball." given all of the public knowledge.

It is inherently unscummy because there is no suggested inside knowledge in the comment and also the comment flowed naturally from the conversation I was having at the time suggesting no strange focus on multiball either - ergo, it was a natural comment to make and also showed no inside knowledge.

Why is it scummy again?

In post 1106, PeregrineV wrote:As defined by Thor, not by the wiki.

Agreed.
So?

In post 1106, PeregrineV wrote:Actually, I did, even if poorly. Axle did it better and now you
still
don't understand how your comment can be construed as scummy?

You have failed to explain it.
You have shown that you've claimed to have explained it, and you've shown a superficial "he mentioned multiball - ergo scum" case, but have shirked actually justifying that stance, or showing any particular proof beyond the vague "certainty" comment to suggest it is scummy.

How about this - why don't you explain what my town response should have been to Nero after he commented that his clearing made sense as long as it wasn't multiball (which, incidentally, also shows he was using multiball to reference SKs). What was my town response supposed to be if I thought that it wasn't certain we lacked multiscum or SK? Or, explain why, as town, I should ave been convinced that there was no reason to consider this in scumhunting? Or show why it's scummy if I choose to do so? Or...y'know, anything, besides the empty stuff you have said.
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Post Post #1108 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:30 am

Post by Egg »

In post 828, goodmorning wrote:Does anyone know whether Thor whinges as much as Town as he does as Scum?


I don't know that he's whining as much as maybe pushing his views, but aside from that, I don't think I've ever actually seen Thor's scum game. He doesn't seem any different here from what I've seen in the past though.

On Script, I have to agree that it feels weird that he cares what is in his ISO. However. Weird isn't necessarily scum. It seems similar to the thought that it helps when everyone knows what you are thinking about something. I'm kind of on the fence on Script because I see things in his play like this that feel off, but have a logical explanation.

In post 835, Thor665 wrote:I think Pere is scum via play in thread, his lack of presence in the neighborhood means nothing really as he was checked out of the game for days after that anyway.


I agree, looking back. But it was a better reason to vote on Page 1 than "hurrhurr ur avatar sux" and I never got any town vibes after that. See my ISO. Pere looks like a scum fuck to me.

In post 836, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 831, Thor665 wrote:My Neighborhood is me, Pere, and Egg.
Egg gave me slight town vibes already.
Pere didn't post.

Discuss.

What did egg do that gave you town vibes? Is he scrambled or sunny side up?


I once played a hard boiled setup and told the Mod that the thread title was offensive.

In post 838, TierShift wrote:
In post 831, Thor665 wrote:My Neighborhood is me, Pere, and Egg.

Shit. I found egg slipping knowledge of the neighbourhood in , which is why I posted . There defnitely hadn't been enough info to conclude you were in a neighbourhood, so I hoped egg wasn't in your neighbourhood and scumslipped.


That was a crumb, not a slip. Same with another post or two before that where I mentioned both Thor and Pere together.

Thor, what is so terrible about seeing no real benefit to being a town neighbor? I mean, scum can use a neighborhood to attempt to manipulate their neighbors. I don't really see what town can do with a neighborhood. Why is that so terrible?
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Post Post #1109 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:00 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 1108, Egg wrote:Thor, what is so terrible about seeing no real benefit to being a town neighbor? I mean, scum can use a neighborhood to attempt to manipulate their neighbors. I don't really see what town can do with a neighborhood. Why is that so terrible?

I wasn't aware that I was arguing that it was terrible.
As I recall, I flat out told you in the QT that I considered neighbor to be amongst the most useless of town roles in existence.
What are you talking about?
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Post Post #1110 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:25 am

Post by Aegor »

Tiershift, Cho have been prodded.

Still looking for Goofyd00d replacement.
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Post Post #1111 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:27 am

Post by Egg »

Beginning of post 842.
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Post Post #1112 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:49 am

Post by T S O »

In post 1096, Thor665 wrote:
I'm even debating that his case is equivalent to my case on Pere, except mine is better.


I interpreted this as you calling his case good. My bad.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #1113 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:51 am

Post by T S O »

hardball it is.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #1114 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:51 am

Post by T S O »

Be aware that my tolerance for stupidity is dead, Axle, and if you give me a stupid answer you'll get a response telling you just that.

Now then.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #1115 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:53 am

Post by T S O »

In post 421, T S O wrote:
In post 418, Aneninen wrote:
TSO. What I don't like is here:
– it's just a feeling but these seemed to be fake.
"I don't lurk as scum. Aneninen, Cho, Egg, Thor and Pere have all seen my scumgame when it's working decently. You can ask them."

"I really don't agree with anything Aneninen is saying right now."
– soooo, if I posted I knew how you played as scum would you disagree with me? ^_^
– whattafukk was that bullshyt? A quote-wall which contains nothing from or about me and asking Thor about me? How does that make sense? ( – what kind of explanation was that?
"That quote string is me going through the thread convinced I was right - ignore it."
– What did you examine?)


That's trash.

#304 - It's your opinion, you might be entitled to it - but it's wrong.
#381 - What possible problem could you have with this? Are you reading what you're posting?
#383 - What the hell is this meant to mean? I have literally no problem with you talking about the scum game of mine you played in. Is this meant to make me look scummy or something?
#400 - Get this, right? You see that quote string?
Those were the posts I was looking at!
No, really!

In post 422, T S O wrote:You got your day of grace, Aneninen, it's gone.

Unvote
Vote: Aneninen


These were Aneninen's reasons for scumreading me. To a point, they are fluffy bullshit which is no way indicative of me-scum.

When I called him out, he literally did nothing relevant to refute anything I said - ergo, he knew it was true.

Why would Town do this?
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #1116 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:35 am

Post by TierShift »

Catchups tomorrow saturday-ish
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Post Post #1117 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:02 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 1111, Egg wrote:Beginning of post 842.

Go re-read it then, you are grossly misunderstanding what I'm saying.
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Post Post #1118 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:46 am

Post by Egg »

You'll have to explain it then because that's how I'm reading it
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Post Post #1119 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:07 pm

Post by The Fonz »

At p20. Two things.

Csareo was scumhunting derpily. One of those last two words is alignment relevant.

My predecessor's Nero vote was decent, but I'm going to
Vote: PeregrineV
because holy shit was #385 bad.
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Post Post #1120 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:08 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 1094, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1086, AxleGreaser wrote:Well I found mine, and I always like wagons that I find more than ones dished up to me.

If I dig around in mine, it is still possible TSO is town, but it will only happen if I dig.

Neither of these are a good reason to not vote Pere - in fact, one is a good reason to vote Pere.

In post 1086, AxleGreaser wrote:While you state it is exactly the same, it really isn't from my point of view.

Given the knowledge I had, knowledge = (one bit is i have read my role PM, and another bit is I had very little idea that the game might reasonably likely be multiball.)
When he raised the point that perhaps you had TMI, it looked interesting to me, and I AM town. So its certain for me that it could look interesting to a towny.
My best guess was the odds on Thor making TMI slip like that as scum were so low that the towny explanation was bound to exist and Thor would know what it was whether he was town or scum.

Okay - would you have dodged explaining that if you were him?
If no - then how does this matter?

You failed to use enough words to be clear. The paragraph contains multiple ideas. I will deal with some ways some parts of the paragraph is relevant.
I was certain a towny, me could find your belief and its origins interesting. Thus to make against PereV, I needed to know PereV didnt also "I had very little idea that the game might reasonably likely be multiball."

You and PereV, for some reason that is unfathomable to me, instead argued about whether it was statistical fact that Multiball was unlikely. Somehow both seemed to be arguing if it was fact that Mutlball was likely or unlikely that was important.
It is not. Establishing that would only make one of you wrong, wrong and bad is not the same as scum. If you believed it was almost certainly MB and he believed it almost certainly wasnt MB and the truth was in the middle then youre both just wrong and not scum
because
of it. What might make you both scum in that situation is if you both knew better and were both generating a huge convoluted pile of Bleh in the thread.
You claim that because in your mind, SK + scum is part of the games that are multiball group, the odds are really good. PereV was clearly not thinking about SKs when he made his judgement, that you could be scum with TMI. This makes his concern more reasonable than you seem to be willing to consider. I would read you as scum for this kind of stuff, but even Thor has his limitations. Besides I see other stuff in your filter.


In post 1086, AxleGreaser wrote:Also at one point, you were adding into your case that PereV didn't jump at the other speakers on Multiball. That was BS kinda in that their comments were very different.
They were very different worse in that they made them out of thin air, but yours was different in the level of certainty expressed. How you seemed to overlook those differences is ? to me.
Feels like stitching up, either via you tunnelling or otherwise.

My "certainty"?
Describe my certainty and how it is scummy.

Are you twitchy or what?
Here, in the following well know quote, you are being more certain than the previous posters that the game was multiball. (did you forget you said that?) (certainty is now described? HUH?)
In post 261, Thor665 wrote:Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption, and second off being wishy-washy is actually pretty solid scum play.

The bit you are quoting I refer to you overlooking those two levels of expressed certainty. That difference in levels of expressed certainty explains PereV responding to one and not the others. You tired to make point out of him not responding to the others the same way. You overlooking that for me needs an explanation. One is Thor is Thor, and i think i have seen you do that before as you tunnel your wagon like trojan.

However previously elsewhere, I did indicate that the level of certainty that it is multiball, is (if
you didnt have a reason
to believe it (true or otherwise)) raised my eyebrow when it was pointed out. Id did expect such line of enquiry to go no where as it did.


Because what I said is "I find it safe to presume multiball" in answer to someone saying "if it's not multiball this logic makes sense"
We also showed, via research, that over 50% of Larges are multiball.



It also shows that I was using the term multiball to refer to SKs as the point was about scum/scum interaction.

No actually, and very precisely, I only saw you indicate we should include SK after you had seen the data. While i believe you very likely actually think of MB as being including SK, I dotn actually know that that was nota convenient thing you added in later once you had seen the data.


So how is that "certain" in a scummy way?

It only has to be true that pereV thought it might be scum tell. Him being wrong about the stats you "showed" blah blah is only him being right or wrong?

Seriously? are you claiming if he was wrong hes scum?


Because Pere agrees with you - but he can't describe it to anyone.
Maybe you can help him out?

Now that is a problem, his limited explaining of his point of view.
and yeah the fact that I can make up a reason a Town PereV might do what he did doesnt mean he did it for that reason.
the fact that i can make one up and i wanted to see if he had one is one very good reason i stayed well out of the argument until you specifically quizzed me here.


In post 1086, AxleGreaser wrote:Later you asserted a number of things about his play, I don't find them convincing.
I feel confident I would find more towny intention in PereV's than in TSO's respective ISOs

I would love to see this.

Even if I can find them, unless I decide to bet the game or at least my life on it i wont be defending PereV like that. Also WTF for, if he cant (given his experience) perhaps he does really want to be in the game.
Its what I perceive a rather large lack of towny intentioned play in TSOs filter that I was referring too. If I understand TSO correctly, Lately he has indicated he is answering questions with reading the posts he is responding too.

In post 1086, AxleGreaser wrote:Finally one good way to eliminate these distraction/excuse wagons, is to dig around in why people are voting them. Even if PereV is scum, perhaps I found his buddy?


Maybe.
You should vote Pere so we can find out.


You could always vote TSO.
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Post Post #1121 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:42 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 1119, The Fonz wrote:At p20. Two things.

Csareo was scumhunting derpily. One of those last two words is alignment relevant.

My predecessor's Nero vote was decent, but I'm going to
Vote: PeregrineV
because holy shit was #385 bad.


Why/how was it bad?

I see
skating over stuff (not deep thoughts for PereV)
What was the intent?
Too much is funny? (more room for fun when you know alignments?)

I liked liking boonskies unvote.

Weirdly I almost liked "You voted Caesar for being serious in his efforts to scumhunt?"
Spoiler: even though
I
think
I can see towny way A player (but maybe not TSO) would town read someone, call them and elephant and vote them.
probably no one would like my reason. Also I see a plausible scummy reason.

but as a question it has something?

anyway Why was it bad?

Id like to hear why from someone other than Thor.
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Post Post #1122 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:51 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

EBWOP
ooops said the opposite of what i tried to say.
In post 1120, AxleGreaser wrote:Even if I can find them, unless I decide to bet the game or at least my life on it i wont be defending PereV like that. Also WTF for, if he cant (given his experience) perhaps he does
NOT
really want to be in the game.
Its what I perceive a rather large lack of towny intentioned play in TSOs filter that I was referring too. If I understand TSO correctly, Lately he has indicated he is answering questions with
out even
reading the posts he is responding too.
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AxleGreaser
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Post Post #1123 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:56 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 1115, T S O wrote:These were Aneninen's reasons for scumreading me. To a point, they are fluffy bullshit which is no way indicative of me-scum.

When I called him out, he literally did nothing relevant to refute anything I said - ergo, he knew it was true.

Why would Town do this?



Nope,
I do not have to be able to prove Aneninen is town in order to argue your play is scummy.

It is plausible that Aneninen is Scum and you have (previously) made a derp case against him as somewhere to be out of the way, and not commit to stuff.
It is plausible that Aneninen is Scum and you have (previously) made a derp case against him as somewhere to be out of the way, and not commit to stuff.

You certainly to my mind have not been trying to get your scum read lynched.
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AxleGreaser
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Post Post #1124 (ISO) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:07 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 1115, T S O wrote:When I called him out, he literally did nothing relevant to refute anything I said - ergo, he knew it was true.

Why would Town do this?


You tell me, your town or so you say.

(remeber you think you are much better player than Aneninen so you fsking up is more scum indicative.)

So when i called you out: Here and even more explicitly here

you first replied with this pointless pile of trash

then when pressed that your post did not show what was asked for Post so bad that Aneninen must be scum and not town

you agreed you had shown post that was not scum indicative.

You claimed "Don't get me wrong, though, he's done plenty of scummy shit."

Why on earth didn't a towny pushing case on his scum read quote some of the scummy stuff then?
In post 1115, T S O wrote:
Why would Town do this?


especially why would a town who is not bad like you say Aneninen is do that?

Are you trying to get Aneninen lynched today or not?
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