NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #800 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:42 pm

Post by hephaestus »

I don't really have any experience with neighbourhoods on or off site - they don't seem to make much of a difference to me especially when decided by the mod, besides making the game more dynamic or whatever. I guess that is why I asked though
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Post Post #801 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:24 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 758, Scripten wrote:Kinda hard to form any real opinion on it. I don't know where your reads are, am either null- or town-reading other players in the hood, and I am speaking from a different PoV than you are. (You already know your own role. I already know mine.) There's too many variables for me to make a judgement call on that statement other than saying it's wrong.

Eh, the whole reason I think scum are going to be in the hoods is 'cause mods putting a scum spy in the hoods is p common these days. Nothing Dave has said seems all that scummy too me (but that could be that I haven't read everything yet) and the only really niggle that I get from TSO is like, he'll lash out at anything he thinks is criticism so him being "oh yeah I'm grumpy" and just kinda laughing it off seemed a bit uncharacteristic? Do yo have a read on TSO and Dave?

In post 782, goodmorning wrote:Two, actually. Vaguely annoyed.

Why are you annoyed that two hoods got claimed?
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #802 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:42 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 800, hephaestus wrote:I don't really have any experience with neighbourhoods on or off site - they don't seem to make much of a difference to me especially when decided by the mod, besides making the game more dynamic or whatever. I guess that is why I asked though

Most people see minor value in them at best.

Goodmorning thinks there is some sort of pro-town aspect to them in some manner yet to be determined and may or may not be allowed to discuss it for fear of cluing in the scum to the brilliant advantage.

You may draw your own conclusions though.

What's your read on Pere by the by?
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Post Post #803 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:56 pm

Post by Scripten »

In post 801, Nero Cain wrote:
Eh, the whole reason I think scum are going to be in the hoods is 'cause mods putting a scum spy in the hoods is p common these days. Nothing Dave has said seems all that scummy too me (but that could be that I haven't read everything yet) and the only really niggle that I get from TSO is like, he'll lash out at anything he thinks is criticism so him being "oh yeah I'm grumpy" and just kinda laughing it off seemed a bit uncharacteristic? Do yo have a read on TSO and Dave?


I hadn't really thought much of the hoods, to be honest. I still don't know exactly what to think, though I feel like knowing who is in what neighborhood will be useful later on.

Right now I've got a slight townread on TSO, a null read on Davesaz, and a null read on you. If I had to choose scum out of those three, I'd probably vote you. (My read hasn't changed markedly from my (), at least among my hood.)
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Post Post #804 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:05 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

Well why do you think I'm suspicious?
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #805 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:17 pm

Post by Scripten »

Mostly gut, based on your interactions with Toby and Csareo initially. I disagree with your () and (), but they moved you out of an early scum read. (The alt-hater thing is not really alignment indicative, but I do have a thing against policy lynches.)

Since my initial read on you, you've slightly moved from minor scum to null-leaning-scum for a few things to do with TSO.
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Post Post #806 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:20 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

you thought my alt thing was serious?!?

:eek: + :lol:
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #807 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:29 pm

Post by Scripten »

In post 806, Nero Cain wrote:you thought my alt thing was serious?!?

:eek: + :lol:


Not the jokes you made, obviously, but the sentiment could easily have been genuine. I've seen much less pushed much harder.
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Post Post #808 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:34 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 413, TobyLoby wrote:I am voting you on not being consistent on your read of Csareo while playing off a simultaneous scum Csareo and town Csareo possibility.

yeah, that never happened.
In post 630, Muffin wrote:Reminder that throughout this entire exchange where PereV is calling Thor scum, Pere has had his vote parked on a go-nowhere wagon.

Having multiple scumreads is no way a scumtell and he has no reason to move. This is a nonsensical pressure point statement and I think thats likely to come from scum.
In post 646, Garmr wrote:Kinda annoyed that someone would passively role claim day 1 with only one vote on them. If it is multiball all you had to do was wait one day and you could of keeped it hidden from scum.

*twitch twitch twitch*
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #809 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:50 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

@Thor
Spoiler: Stuff i am responding too
In post 709, Thor665 wrote:

In post 700, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 590, Thor665 wrote:
In post 126, Goofyd00d wrote:Considering 4 is the meta for almost garunteed, I would say 5 people in a hood contains a scum, and maybe even multi factions.

Here's another mention of multiball that didn't bother Pere.


That is on one level a factually true statement, You make lots of those habitually. ta.
(but I suppose its possible it may have bothered him but not been publicly examined yet for some reason. but never mind.)

It didn't 'bother' me much either.

I find this comment of yours to be quite different in nature to the other one.

In post 261, Thor665 wrote:Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption, and second off being wishy-washy is actually pretty solid scum play.

Why?

In post 700, AxleGreaser wrote:Do you actually think they are so very similar (tone, context, intent, and what not) and thus that anyone reading you saying one of them ought, form the same conclusion as when they read Goofy said the other?

Pere claims to find both of them scummy, so I suppose the answer is 'yes'.
I'm actually bewildered he finds either of them scummy, but he claims he does and is being strange about explaining them.
You seem to have missed all of this discussion though, and are asking me something meaningless.
It doesn't matter if I think he should or shouldn't - what matters is he claimed he did. Would you like to discuss that?

In post 700, AxleGreaser wrote:I am rather curious because I don't think you think that. I even think you wouldn't actually claim to think that as town or scum or 3rd party.

Pere *has* claimed this...so what do you think that makes him?



There were in fact TBMK 3 references to multifactions back then
Spoiler: The references
In post 126, Goofyd00d wrote:Considering 4 is the meta for almost garunteed, I would say 5 people in a hood contains a scum, and maybe even multi factions.



In post 260, Nero Cain wrote:baring multiball, I'd know his alignment and thus would have no need to be wishy washy.


In post 261, Thor665 wrote:Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption,


Why/How are they quite different IMO?
As indicated in my original post already they are in my opinion not very similar (tone, context, intent, and what not)

The differences are numerous.
Spoiler: some of the differences
Context:
Who said them. You said yours and Goofy said his. Thor is Thor (as per your wiki), Goofy is not Thor.
Is it likely you´d look at your PM notice it indicated it was multiball, and then later on forget that you only know that because of your PM? And is it more or less likely that others players such as Goofy would.

More Context:
Goofies is made out of thin air almost and in response to not much except a statement about multi neighbourhood.
Yours is made in direct response to someone else mentioning MultiBall. So its not like the idea just happened to be floating around at the top of your head because you had recently read your role PM.
Thus they are all quite different, in just that regard.

Both those move the dial towards the earlier references being more alarming to me. (but not very alarming at all)

Level of certainty expressed.
Yours contains a much stronger belief in multiball than the others. If at the time Pere did not know (or recall) that that was backed by some facts then I can see him triggering harder of your statement than theirs as he would wonder where the certainty came from.

Trickier stuff.
However there may well exist arguments that if you were scum and you had defensible reason to mention it, you might mention multiball in order to hunt the other faction?
Where as, I think that would be a less likely strategy from the other two.

Basically I find all arguments that superficially similar statements (both said Multiball) should receive the same response and be interpreted the same way to be silly.
For reference I am not saying you explicitly made such an argument but the post I was responding to quoted the post as if the quote stood for itself, aka simple.

In order to evaluate the alignment of PereV or you I will be examining the body of other work, and as I find significant parts of the interaction between both of you to be WAT(but assume I am confused), I will be primarily considering the parts of both your respective scum hunting where I think I understand what is going on. I neither understand Peres original point nor your strong focus on just that. (what other bits of his filter are also scummy?)

(Its possible I have missed it, if you or he has scum read other aspects of each others play as I have been time poor and largely focussed elsewhere.)
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Post Post #810 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:57 pm

Post by Egg »

Alright, one more short burst. Getting tired though.

Muffin's attack on Pere reads fake. Doesn't mean Pere is town if muffin is scum though. There's always the chance of tow scum groups, SK, or distancing/bussing.

Thor wrote: @Everyone - Pere claimed scum. I caught him. You may sheep me now.


I voted him before it was cool.

Axle being careful not to Amished-tell rubs me the wrong way. Mostly because it reads nervous, I think.

Pere wrote: If your scumrole implies it, Blue Mafia Goon, then that's fine.If your townrole implies it, then saying so right away makes a difference in how we scumhunt.Perhaps Thor has a similar role to you....


Possibly the worst post of the game so far.

Falling asleep. Page 25-??? will come whenever
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Post Post #811 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:05 pm

Post by Thor665 »

@Axle - I find your response to me to focus mostly on the first question (a setup question) and to not address at all the other questions (scumhunting questions based off said setup) except to say 'later I will provide this.

Not particularly enthralled thus far, is what I'm saying. Maybe the expansion will become interesting.
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Post Post #812 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:33 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 811, Thor665 wrote:@Axle - I find your response to me to focus mostly on the first question (a setup question) and to not address at all the other questions (scumhunting questions based off said setup) except to say 'later I will provide this.

Not particularly enthralled thus far, is what I'm saying. Maybe the expansion will become interesting.


Not seeing where I said later I will provide this.

I did indicate that i thought your read on Pere was based on a very narrow, view of his filter, but that i may have missed it if you said more. (See ### below)

I did indicate that, I dont find the mention of multiball by you or the others to be
¨Both those move the dial towards the earlier references being more alarming to me. (but not very alarming at all)"
hence up to there, I dont really see what was so alarming to PereV.

My estimate of how strange it is that PereV found your multiball reference alarming will depend on em guessing or knowing
¨Level of certainty expressed.
Yours contains a much stronger belief in multiball than the others. If at the time Pere did not know (or recall) that that was backed by some facts then I can see him triggering harder of your statement than theirs as he would wonder where the certainty came from.¨

He indicated a statistical based belief that many games were not multiball.
The fact that he was wrong, in that IMO enough games have been multiball to make your statement plausibly based on stats, does not make him scum as being wrong or bad or mistaken is not the same as scum.

As I am not so far Buying the Pere is scum because he called you scum for the multiball thing, I hardly expect you to be enthralled.

My reply to you was mostly based on the stuff i had been thinking most about when I asked you my question.
That stuff I believe goes to what i see as the heart of the matter,

Is Thor scummy for mentioning Multiball? Is anyone else who did prior to him?
How plausible is it that a Town player might react as PereV did and think it was a scum tell?

###
A question I have not considered in detail, is are Pere or Thor (or both) avoiding the rest of the thread, by discussing that one point at length. My feel is no.
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Post Post #813 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:40 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 812, AxleGreaser wrote:Is Thor scummy for mentioning Multiball? Is anyone else who did prior to him?
How plausible is it that a Town player might react as PereV did and think it was a scum tell?

Yes.

And your answer to these questions is...?
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Post Post #814 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:40 pm

Post by Thor665 »

Stop writing me essays to say frak all.
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Post Post #815 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:41 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 809, AxleGreaser wrote:In order to evaluate the alignment of PereV or you I will be examining the body of other work, and as I find significant parts of the interaction between both of you to be WAT(but assume I am confused), I will be primarily considering the parts of both your respective scum hunting where I think I understand what is going on. I neither understand Peres original point nor your strong focus on just that. (what other bits of his filter are also scummy?)

And here was your promise to future info.
If this was *not* a promise of future info that this post also said nothing at all and took a lot of words to accomplish that.
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Post Post #816 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:11 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 814, Thor665 wrote:Stop writing me essays to say frak all.

Start reading them.

In post 813, Thor665 wrote:
In post 812, AxleGreaser wrote:Is Thor scummy for mentioning Multiball? Is anyone else who did prior to him?
How plausible is it that a Town player might react as PereV did and think it was a scum tell?

Yes.

And your answer to these questions is...?


Already in the last post you claim says Frak all?

Axle: Is Thor scummy for mentioning Multiball? Is anyone else who did prior to him?
In post 812, AxleGreaser wrote:

I did indicate that, I dont find the mention of multiball by you or the others to be
¨Both those move the dial towards the earlier references being more alarming to me.
(but not very alarming at all)
"
hence up to there, I dont really see what was so alarming to PereV.



Axle: How plausible is it that a Town player might react as PereV did and think it was a scum tell?
In post 812, AxleGreaser wrote:
Spoiler: details
My estimate of how strange it is that PereV found your multiball reference alarming will depend on em guessing or knowing
¨Level of certainty expressed.
Yours contains a much stronger belief in multiball than the others. If at the time Pere did not know (or recall) that that was backed by some facts then I can see him triggering harder of your statement than theirs as he would wonder where the certainty came from.¨

He indicated a statistical based belief that many games were not multiball.
The fact that he was wrong, in that IMO enough games have been multiball to make your statement plausibly based on stats, does not make him scum as being wrong or bad or mistaken is not the same as scum.

As I am not so far Buying the Pere is scum because he called you scum for the multiball thing, I hardly expect you to be enthralled.


In order to be convinced PereV is scum, and buy into your ´çase´/wagon I would need to see a continuing pattern of behaviour. I don´t believe your thread discussion with him or the points you have made do that.
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Post Post #817 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:14 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 815, Thor665 wrote:
In post 809, AxleGreaser wrote:In order to evaluate the alignment of PereV or you I will be examining the body of other work, and as I find significant parts of the interaction between both of you to be WAT(but assume I am confused), I will be primarily considering the parts of both your respective scum hunting where I think I understand what is going on. I neither understand Peres original point nor your strong focus on just that. (what other bits of his filter are also scummy?)

And here was your promise to future info.
If this was *not* a promise of future info that this post also said nothing at all and took a lot of words to accomplish that.


You are perfectly correct I made clear what i had and had not done.

I read what you originally said.
Thor: ¨and to not address at all the other questions (scumhunting questions based off said setup) except to say 'later I will provide this.¨

as a claim i had stated i would answer the questions you claimed i had not, but do it later.

I had in fact as far as i still can tell answered each point, if not then by now I have done it twice.
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Post Post #818 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:18 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 747, Scripten wrote:
In post 723, Izariael wrote:
But the time for being up-front and pro-active about neighborhood composition is long past. Throwing it out there now is a formality more than anything, since everyone is aware that multiple neighborhoods are in play. It might be pro-town, but I would expect scum to follow suit as well because it would be blatantly scummy not to.


Yeah. It's a null tell that is, IMO, pro-town. Knowing who can talk to one another overnight is useful information. I'm not actually sure what part of this you are questioning?
In post 714, Scripten wrote:My neighborhood is davesaz, Nero Cain, and TSO. I believe this may have already come out,
but I'd like it in my ISO for people to see.

I fail to understand why you chose to include the bolded statement. It sounds like you want to intentionally include something that *could* be seen as pro-town just for the sake of appearances. I don't see why a town player would be so concerned about making sure
this detail
is on their ISO. As long as they can confirm that no information about the hood is being lied about, then what is it to a town player whether they or another player opened up about it?

In post 805, Scripten wrote:(The alt-hater thing is not really alignment indicative, but I do have a thing against policy lynches.)

Seems somewhat contradictory to what you said here
In post 39, Scripten wrote:Policy lynchers should be policy lynched.

Thor vote is serious.

In which you are saying you would policy lynch someone on the basis that they support policy lynches. This is like pushing for capital punishment on people who support capital punishment. Does someone else come along and policy lynch you for policy lynching someone who supports policy lynches? Where does this chain end? You're perpetuating the very thing you're trying to stop... and then now say you're against it?
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Post Post #819 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:21 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 818, Izariael wrote:
In post 747, Scripten wrote:
In post 723, Izariael wrote:I don't see why a town player would be so concerned about making sure
this detail
is on their ISO.

I don't actually see why a town player would specifically go out of their way to tailor their ISO to be "townier" in appearance, regardless of the details in question. It just seems like a counter-productive thing to be doing when you could be instead spending time actually, you know... looking for scum. It's like trying to coif your hair in the middle of a house fire. Like... get your priorities straight here. Survival > Appearances.
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Post Post #820 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:22 pm

Post by Izariael »

Wow I messed up that self-quote. The point should still get across I hope... :facepalm:
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Post Post #821 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:47 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 743, TierShift wrote:You seem to be addressing me as though I've been shitting on you, which I haven't. What's up with the attitude?

In post 746, TierShift wrote:
In post 744, Thor665 wrote:Hint: I am scumhunting you.

That is not an excuse for your tone.

He seems to speak this way to anyone not agreeing with him. It irks me as a player, but I haven't played with Thor prior to this nor have I checked his previous games to know if this sneery, condescending tone of his is par for the course or if it could be alignment-indicative. I can't work past my personal bias to get any sort of read on him.

I do like both of these posts (and I think there was another from you [TierShift] touching on this but couldn't find it skimming your ISO) for addressing something that I've been meaning to address to Thor:

@Thor
: Drawing different conclusions or applying a different brand of logic than you doesn't make me terrible town. Nor does it make me scum. It simply means that I have evaluated something differently than you have. You think I'm terrible town for having "faulty logic", while I think you're terrible town for your dogmatic attitude. The vast majority of your posts have this stick-up-your-ass tone that is quickly getting old. I would love to give you an unbiased read that isn't influenced by my incredible distaste for your attitude, because right now all I'm thinking is "I just want Thor out of the game, regardless of his alignment." For that to happen, I would need you to step back a bit, get off your high horse, and cut this "I art superior to thou" crap that you're doing. Maybe you're right about EVERYTHING in this game, and I am WRONG about everything in this game. Perhaps it's the other way around. It still does not give you the right to be a complete ass to myself or other players in the way I see you doing. I'll leave that ball in your court. Do as you please.
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Post Post #822 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:37 pm

Post by Izariael »

Actually, I'm still thinking about this ().... It does remind me of a similar scenario from my first forum mafia game, so I
can
see how a town player would think that this is a townie thing, however I have since adopted a different stance on this that I think is more fitting of the forum venue. I'm seeing both sides of this coin, so I don't really have a read on it.

For reference, here is the post that this is reminding me of: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6094589
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Post Post #823 (ISO) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:52 pm

Post by TierShift »

In post 799, Thor665 wrote:I would think my other comment of 'I am in a neighborhood and not claiming it yet' would remove all doubt.

Where is this post?

Response to inquiry when I have time.
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Post Post #824 (ISO) » Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:24 am

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 823, TierShift wrote:
In post 799, Thor665 wrote:I would think my other comment of 'I am in a neighborhood and not claiming it yet' would remove all doubt.

Where is this post?

Response to inquiry when I have time.


not sure what he is talking about as I did not see him say exactly that.
he did however say
In post 65, Thor665 wrote:
In post 61, goodmorning wrote:Yes, I'm in a Neighbourhood with 3 others and Cho. No, I don't think we can say there's absolutely Scum in the Neighbourhood, though it is likely.

Maybe.
It's multi-neighborhood though.

Kind of works with the Masquerade theme I suppose.


Which is an assertion of fact when, only IIRC one neighbourhood had been outed at the time.
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