Mafia 66: Freelancer - Game over!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Original Roll String: 1d18

1 18-Sided Dice: (3) = 3

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: spoinkmaster

[Mastermind of Sin]

Liar.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: MoS

No.

[Mastermind of Sin]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]

Vote: Battle Mage

[/quote]

:goodposting:

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sounds like you're the one with the grudge. I'm just supporting the voting of one who is voting me. That is not an OOG metagame, nor a personal attack.

[Mastermind of Sin]

BM, I've got a deal for you. How about we set aside our (non-existent) personal difference, and join forces to bandwagon ChannelDelibird, who is an experienced scumbag that will probably cause strife and terror to spread throughout our beloved village of Redtown, and our favorite pancake house.

[Mastermind of Sin]

unvote, vote: ChannelDelibird

How many other games are we in with ChannelDelibird?

[Mastermind of Sin]

As per our agreement, I have now voted ChannelDelibird in all games we share with him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Is my avatar not "cute"?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sure...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I like my vote. However, I can't remember who I'm voting.

[Mastermind of Sin]

This is a question for the mod

If one SK tries to kill another SK, do we, the town know that the attempt has failed and the name of the player who has escaped the NK by the virtue of being SK?

That was a dumb question.

[Mastermind of Sin]

bold?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Is BM in this game? It won't take long.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Let's lynch the lurkers. I'll explain later (as in today).

Who's lurking, so I can vote them?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Blahgo

Die lurker die!

[Mastermind of Sin]

GOGOGO BANDWAGON!

Hopefully, Blahgo will receive his prod before he gets lynched.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why do you dislike his comment, BM? Just saying that you don't like it doesn't actually give us any information, which you seem so keen on us being able to gather.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why do you dislike his comment, BM? Just saying that you don't like it doesn't actually give us any information, which you seem so keen on us being able to gather.

err, if you'd read my whole post, and not just the last sentence, you would see me explain why i didnt like that comment.
as good old MoS would say:

GG Reading Retension.

Oh no, I definitely read all that, or I wouldn't have seen your vote in the first place. That doesn't explain why you didn't like Qman's comment

in particular

there are at least 3 or 4 people lurking-lynching Blahgo right now, if not more, so you disagreeing with the lurking lynch is not an explanation to pick Qman out of all the candidates to vote. Please explain why he is the vote and not myself, SpinWizard, or Kscope?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Let me break it down for you:

err wtf?

Not directed at Qman in particular.

how the hell does lynching lurkers gain us info.

Question about game theory, not directed at anyone specific.

Case in point, the bandwagon just starting on Blahgo.

Using an in-game example to go along with the game theory discussion. Also not directed at anyone special.

I agree that lynching lurkers is probably good for today at least, but merely because they arent contributing, and arent a big loss.

More game theory, not directed at anyone.

But as you can see here, if the town agrees to lynch lurkers, we dont gain ANY info on anybody.

Game theory, not direction at a person.

There is no Mafia here, so reading bandwagons can only tell us so much.

Statement about the setup and game theory, not directed at anyone in particular.

The fact is, if a lurker comes up town, what do we learn? Nothing.

Game theory, no particular person addressed.

If a lurker comes up scum, what do we learn? Nothing really, as we only have SK's.

Game theory and setup discussion, not replying to a specific person.

The best way to gain INFORMATION would be to play as normal, and lynch whoever you think is behaving scummy.

More game theory based on the setup. Not directed at anyone.

That way, you dont just get a meaningless bandwagon, but actually some discussion.

Prediction of results of applying game theory, not directed at a person.

in fact, whilst i have no qualm about killing a lurker today, i really dislike that comment by Qman, so

Unvote, Vote: Qman

This is your first comment that regards Qman in particular. Every comment in your post up to that point applied to anyone that had voted a lurker or even expressed support of a lurker lynch. You have no told us why you chose Qman over anyone else.

And yes, I did read it...

obviously

[Mastermind of Sin]

ah i see you have at last read it. Now you just need to UNDERSTAND it.
To put it in simple terms for you, the WHOLE POST was directed at QMan. Id have thought that much would have been obvious from the vote, but i guess not. or maybe you were trying to bury the meaning of my post under a heap of confusion. i just dont know with you.

I understand that you were using that to apply to Qman. However, everything in that post except the vote could apply to anyone who was voting Blahgo at the time. What you needed to do was specify why you were directing it at Qman in particular. Had you been reading my posts, it would've been quite clear what I was asking of you.

@QMan- the comment bothers me because it looks like you were trying to validate a vote with game theory, however this game theory was incorrect. it put you as a preferable vote to a lurker at this point.

Why didn't you just say this when I first asked you, instead of causing a big huff over nothing?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, I disagree that lynching a lurker is a good strategy, even for this setup. I only suggested this for 2 reasons:

a) to find out who would support such a horrible idea and pick out the scum
b) to put pressure on the lurker to post and contribute, lest they be lynched.

Also, while Blahgo's response was not helpful AT ALL, I believe that it fits more as a newbish reponse, because scum are more likely to respond to the pressure and try to defend/explain themselves in that sort of situation.

[Mastermind of Sin]

unvote, vote: Givm

Blahgo is town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, I disagree that lynching a lurker is a good strategy, even for this setup. I only suggested this for 2 reasons:

a) to find out who would support such a horrible idea and pick out the scum
b) to put pressure on the lurker to post and contribute, lest they be lynched.

Also, while Blahgo's response was not helpful AT ALL, I believe that it fits more as a newbish reponse, because scum are more likely to respond to the pressure and try to defend/explain themselves in that sort of situation.

So, what, according to you is the best idea for hunting SK on day 1? I suggested, in the beginning that we have no choice but to random lynch on day 1 unless one SK makes a big mistake, but the random lynch should occur only after everyone participates in the discussion, and we have everyone's views. Do you agree with that?

I say we lynch someone who we think is acting like an SK, obviously. Random lynches are never more helpful than informed lynches.

[Mastermind of Sin]

im not going to argue semantics with you MoS. suffice to say, i know that you are not completely stupid, and i wont be helping you play the "i dont know whats going on" card.

When have I played such a card? I know exactly what is going on. Also, you saying that you don't believe I would set a trap is a pointless argument, because there is no way I can prove this beyond my own word, and you never believe anything I say anyways. To be fair, if I was trying to "trap" lazy townies, why did I not attempt to start a bandwagon on someone who had voted Blahgo? Your theory doesn't make a lot of sense right now, because you don't have actions to back it up. I have moved on past the Blahgo wagon, because the information needed from it has been produced. That is all.

[Mastermind of Sin]

thanks.

[Mastermind of Sin]

BM, answer this please. Do you believe that I, as scum, would be clever enough to start a lurker lynch, jump off the wagon when it's nearing a lynch instead of riding it to day end, claim that I only supported the wagon to pressure lurkers and set a trap for scum, then move on to vote another lurker instead of going after the possible scum I set a trap for? Also, what would I accomplish by doing this? What's in it for me as scum?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually I went with agreeing with somebody I dont trust, but I do see his argument. I've never been a fan of BM's play but I think this time he hit the nail right on the head, a trap was trying to be set and instead of going after somebody (who is now being replaced) I'm happy with my vote. Are you telling me you don't see what MoS is trying to do?

Ryan, what do you think I am trying to do? Don't let BM answer this for you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why is everyone still voting Blahgo? He is not scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

BM, answer this please. Do you believe that I, as scum, would be clever enough to start a lurker lynch, jump off the wagon when it's nearing a lynch instead of riding it to day end, claim that I only supported the wagon to pressure lurkers and set a trap for scum, then move on to vote another lurker instead of going after the possible scum I set a trap for? Also, what would I accomplish by doing this? What's in it for me as scum?

thats pretty obvious. you would look pro-active. i just didnt like the way you were jumping around.

You didn't answer my first question. Also, why would I

not

want to look proactive as town? By voting me for that action, you are implying that I am doing something that I would not do as town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why is everyone still voting Blahgo? He is not scum.

Proof?

I'm Here and Game for Lynchig Luckers other than myself. But before I vote I want to see Day 1 play out a little more.

Proof.

[Mastermind of Sin]

blahgo is being replaced. A replacement is still being sought for spoinkmaster.

And are those drum beats the sound of an coming deadline? Be warned.

Drum beats in a pancake house? o.O

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why is everyone still voting Blahgo? He is not scum.

Proof?

I'm Here and Game for Lynchig Luckers other than myself. But before I vote I want to see Day 1 play out a little more.

Proof.

LOL at your proof/evidence, everyone says that during the game MoS, come on now, and BM I'm disappointed in you for calling that "evidence" I thought you were a better player than that. If you are going to post some "proof" at least give us something that not everyone else has posted as well. Blahgo is, what at -3 now? The town is speaking MoS, looks like Blahgo is the decision, are you saying that you won't go with what the town wants? As for you BM and the last game we played, wasn't that the game where you fake claimed and got yourself lynched because of it? Just something to think about my friend.

Wow, for once, BM is right. Ryan just made a huge slipup. Trying to force people to conform to the majority, which is probably infested with our SKs? At no point should a protown player

EVER

give up his own opinions to follow a majority that he strictly disagrees with. That statement sounds like it's coming from scum who's trying to push through a lynch on BlahgoTownie, using the fact that he is L-3 to try and bully other players into hopping on the bandwagon.

unvote, vote: Ryan

Mod: A replacement for Givlmrak (or w/e his name is) and a Vote Count would not go amiss.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, BM has done nothing wrong by quoting Sicilian mafia, because it is not an ongoing game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Blahgo is, what at -3 now? The town is speaking MoS, looks like Blahgo is the decision, are you saying that you won't go with what the town wants?

This implies that you agree with the "town" and its decision to lynch Blahgo, since you are trying to force other people to conform to the bandwagon. The fact that you are not voting Blahgo yourself merely makes you a hypocrit for not practicing what you preach. And now you desperately fall back upon the "When I come up townie, you'll be sorry" ploy to try and scare us off your wagon. Unfortunately for you, I'm not afraid of being wrong. It is only by risking being wrong that we have a chance to be right. And I'm sure as hell the BM doesn't have any qualms about being wrong, or he wouldn't play the way he does. So nice try, Ryan, but you're not going to scare us off you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

cool. Welcome.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Good people. Now, how about you actually contribute something to this discussion? Ksc0pe, what do you think of Qman and ryan? Qman, what do you think of Battle Mage?

Why are there only 6 people posting out of like 18?

[Mastermind of Sin]

DON'T LYNCH BM FFS. RYAN IS SCUM, I CAN PROVE IT.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, BM, before you commit idiotic suicide, you need to unvote Ryan =P

[Mastermind of Sin]

Check this out.

Blahgo is, what at -3 now? The town is speaking MoS, looks like Blahgo is the decision, are you saying that you won't go with what the town wants?

This implies that you agree with the "town" and its decision to lynch Blahgo, since you are trying to force other people to conform to the bandwagon. The fact that you are not voting Blahgo yourself merely makes you a hypocrit for not practicing what you preach. And now you desperately fall back upon the "When I come up townie, you'll be sorry" ploy to try and scare us off your wagon. Unfortunately for you, I'm not afraid of being wrong. It is only by risking being wrong that we have a chance to be right. And I'm sure as hell the BM doesn't have any qualms about being wrong, or he wouldn't play the way he does. So nice try, Ryan, but you're not going to scare us off you.

You have picked on something that isn't even there and you MoS are like a sheep following BM down the path.

How am I

following

BM? Just because he voted you and I agreed does not make me a follower. I have presented my own arguments against you that have nothing to do with BM's. Our coinciding votes had no relevance to each other.

We have no discussion right now and the only reason a bandwagon started on Blahgo was because he wasn't participating and with him being replaced why would I keep a vote on him? He didn't give us anything to go by, nor did he post anything that made him look guilty.

We have had plenty of discussion. For example, we discussed the fact that Blahgo is protown by his actions, and that BM believed I was just laying a trap for dumb townies by leading the lurker lynch. Those are things to talk about. Also, if there isn't a reason to vote for Blahgo, then why did you ridicule me for "saying that you won't go with what the town wants", as you put it? You are contradicting yourself. First you ridicule me for not following the rest of the town, then, in defense of your own actions, you claim that there was no reason to vote for Blahgo, which would've been following the town. If there is no reason to follow the town, why should I do it?

You want to talk about being a follower? Starting thinking for yourself for a second. We have no legit evidence on anyone because the past 5 pages have been dominated by three people. Scare you off? I'm not trying to scare anyone, I'm stating a fact. I'm town, case closed. You have nothing but hypothetical evidence on me and when others start weighing in, you'll see that.

Now you're trying to insult me? Nice try, but that's such a scum tactic. "Start thinking for yourself for a second." HA! That's a ridiculous statement. I have contributed more to this game than most of the players combined, so don't tell me to think for myself. You need to think through your statements before you get desparate. Oh yes, the "confidently state you are protown" tactic. Another ploy often used by scum. It's one thing to state you are town. It's another to do it with such confidence, like there's no way anyone could doubt it. That's something scum does.

Do you even know what the word hypothetical means? I don't have "hypothetical" evidence. I have hard facts that prove you are contradicting yourself, not only between separate posts, but just between talking about other people and yourself. You attack people for doing something that you are also doing, then turning around and saying it's ok for you to do it. That's not going to fly with me. Good job getting such a big bandwagon on BM, it might even be too late to get you lynched today. But I'll say right here and now:

Battle Mage is PROTOWN.

You may never see me say that in a game again, but it's definitely true in this game. The wagon against him is bullshit that has come out of lazy townies hopping on him for being naturally scummy without actually having a good reason to do it.

RYAN IS SCUM, DO NOT LYNCH BATTLE MAGE

'nuff said.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I had a vote on BM earlier but since he's been replaced I will

Unvote/Vote: Mastermind of Sin

I like how you attempted to put me into a follower instead of a leader, and since I know I'm pro town and you attempted to start a bandwagon on me near a deadline (while I was on vacation) I have no problem going back to you on my vote

Where did I ever say you were a follower? You keep trying to make it seem like I did, and I didn't. Don't distort the facts, scum. Also, how would I know you were on vacation? I saw BM about to be lynched, and I was about to leave for 3 days without enough free time to post (MoS-Faire), so I posted my full case against you before I left. BM (now Jordan) is not scum, and I stand by that. I'm curious to see why you were so sure BM was scum, but that Jordan isn't, just because BM isn't here now. His role has not changed. Vote stands. I love when scum squirm.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I have a feeling the SK's would try to sort of borderline lurk and fly under the radar, popping in from time to time with a almost useless comment in this sort of game, given the fact the town will probably end up lynching either a lurker or a contraversial player in the early days, given that we practically have just as much chance catching an SK by this method than by just random lynching atm.

Players that I think fall in the borderline lurking catagory (In order of guiltyness)

KaleiDoscope
Rand Althor (Though admittedly, he has posted 3 times today)
Estes
Butte Blues (sort of)
Sir Tornado
CDB

Based on this,

Unvote whoever BM was voting for Vote: KaleiDoscope

Also, I think the following need

prodding

:
Bethelmark
Black-Moon
SpinWizard
YoghurtBandit

I actually agree with this theory. Ksc0pe is usually more active, so I could see him as a possible SK. However, I don't like the way that you completely refrain from commenting on the active players. I believe that at least 1 SK, if not more, is among the active players, and we can get more tells from them right now, so I want to lynch someone that actually seems like scum.

What do you think of ryan?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Any scumtells that depend on someone defending a certain player or what not are generally null and void in this setup. However, most other scumtells still apply, because SKs can do them as well.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Any scumtells that depend on someone defending a certain player or what not are generally null and void in this setup. However, most other scumtells still apply, because SKs can do them as well.

However, in this type of setup, the town needs to be extremely aggressive in order to win. Currently, most of the town is not doing this. As a result, some of the town who actually _understand_ that playing aggressive in this setup is the only way to win are coming off as scummy to those who don't.

I completely understand what you are saying. I'm used to playing mountainous setups (see: Himalayn Mafia, where I lead lynches on scum D1 and D2, opposed the first townie lynch on D3, then was killed N3, the same night that I figured out who the last 2 scum were), and that's pretty much was this is. It takes an aggressive town to win, because we have no power roles to help us out. Having only SKs just means we have to look at posts in more detail, since a lot of scumtells aren't valid anymore. However, there is a difference between being aggressively town and aggressively scummy. Smart scum will realize that town need to be aggressive, so it makes sense that they would try to be aggressive as well, in order to camoflauge themselves among the townies employing the same strategy. We have to look at what people say, not how they do it, because the "how" is valid for both scum and town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why would a no lynch be bad in this situation? I would rather no lynch than lynch randomly. If we no lynch, we lose no one. If we lynch randomly, we most likely lose a townie. Having no one die is better than having a townie die. That's why we need to make an informed lynch instead of randomly wagoning, because that's not going to help us.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why would a no lynch be bad in this situation? I would rather no lynch than lynch randomly. If we no lynch, we lose no one. If we lynch randomly, we most likely lose a townie. Having no one die is better than having a townie die. That's why we need to make an informed lynch instead of randomly wagoning, because that's not going to help us.

A random lynch has been and always will be better than a no lynch. This is basic friggin theory. You should know better. In fact, I'm damned sure that any player who's been here more than a week knows this.

Unvote, Vote: Mastermind of Sin

No lynch'ing in this game is a death wish. I'm confident that any player worth their salt knows this. So either you've got to be a complete noob at mafia or you're scum. Plain as that.

Ah, yes. Basic game theory. However, you forget the fact that this game does not apply to basic game theory. Not to mention the fact that there are numerous situations where no lynch is better than a random lynch. For example, when you get down to a point in the game where there is only 1 kill a night, and there are 10 or less people alive, at an even number, you should always no lynch to get it to an odd number of people. This is

basic friggin theory

, ya know.

Anyways, the normal rules do not apply to this game. This is not

mafia

per se. There is no informed minority. We have an uninformed majority against and uninformed minority. There is no advanatage to the SKs, because they only know their role, and no one else's. This setup would be slightly more balanced if each SK had a list of a few people that were guaranteed to be protown, just to help them make lynch and NK decisions. But that's beside the point. Sure, anyone who's played more than a week knows that a random lynch is better than a no lynch. However, anyone that's played more than 2 weeks should know that no game theory applies in 100% of all situations, and that one should always be willing to question game theory when it seems unsound.

[Mastermind of Sin]

We either lose 4 townies to a random lynch + kills, or we lose 3 townies by no lynching. I'd rather kill an SK by an informed lynch.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: Since no one seems to agree with me about Ryan, I'll go to my second choice.

unvote, vote: Ksc0pe

I think Jordan is right that at least one SK is hiding on his list, and Ksc0pe is the most suspicious.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why would a no lynch be bad in this situation? I would rather no lynch than lynch randomly. If we no lynch, we lose no one. If we lynch randomly, we most likely lose a townie. Having no one die is better than having a townie die. That's why we need to make an informed lynch instead of randomly wagoning, because that's not going to help us.

A random lynch has been and always will be better than a no lynch. This is basic friggin theory. You should know better. In fact, I'm damned sure that any player who's been here more than a week knows this.

Unvote, Vote: Mastermind of Sin

No lynch'ing in this game is a death wish. I'm confident that any player worth their salt knows this. So either you've got to be a complete noob at mafia or you're scum. Plain as that.

Ah, yes. Basic game theory. However, you forget the fact that this game does not apply to basic game theory.

Every game ever is subject to the relevancy of some or most of basic game theory.

Not to mention the fact that there are numerous situations where no lynch is better than a random lynch. For example, when you get down to a point in the game where there is only 1 kill a night, and there are 10 or less people alive, at an even number, you should always no lynch to get it to an odd number of people. This is

basic friggin theory

, ya know.

Yeah - there are also other times like when it's -1 to LYLO and nobody has a clue who scum is.

The current status of the game is nothing like that. You're talking about a moot point here. It's really essentially a strawman when you boil it down.

You're the one who said that a random lynch will

always

be better than a no lynch. I merely proved your base assumption wrong, which makes your entire argument unstable. You can't dismiss this fact just because the example I used does not apply to this game. I used an example that is a set in stone obvious situation where your assumption is wrong. I can hardly use the current game as an example, since this is the situation we are arguing over. I'd really like to see you argue that the example I gave applies to your assumption that a random lynch is better.

Anyways, the normal rules do not apply to this game.

You should rethink that. Basic theory, while not universal or ubiquitous for all setups, is often quite relevant in some part or another in every setup imaginable.

I didn't say that it wasn't relevant to some part of this game. You cut off my statement where I explained what made this game different from others. Taking my quote out of context isn't going to help you.

This is not

mafia

per se. There is no informed minority. We have an uninformed majority against and uninformed minority.

Which is no different from any other setup with only SK as scum, except there are no power roles.

And what's your point? Just because there could be another setup with only SK as scum doesn't change the fact that not all basic theory applies. Not to mention the fact that I have never played in a setup on Mafiascum where there has only been an SK as scum. The only other setup I have seen where there is no informed minority was Committee Mafia, in which the normal basic theory did NOT apply. I would know, since I modded the game.

There is no advanatage to the SKs, because they only know their role, and no one else's.

Yes there is. There are no power roles among the town by which scum can be ratted out.

That's not an advantage. That's taking away an advantage from the town. If you want to argue about basic, the

basic

mafia setup did not include power roles, anyways. That's what mountainous games are. A mafia versus a bunch of townies. The scum are further handicapped in this game by having no information.

This setup would be slightly more balanced if each SK had a list of a few people that were guaranteed to be protown, just to help them make lynch and NK decisions.

Are you

serious

?

This is a pointless question. The game is balanced in the town's favor, so I made a suggestion that would make it better for the SKs without really hurting the town. Anyway, though, this branch of discussion isn't really relevant. I was just rambling on in continuation of the statement that the SKs lack the information that most mafia games give to scum. This is why SK is a notoriously difficult role to play, in any setup. They lack the information that makes a regular mafia powerful.

Sure, anyone who's played more than a week knows that a random lynch is better than a no lynch. However, anyone that's played more than 2 weeks should know that no game theory applies in 100% of all situations, and that one should always be willing to question game theory when it seems unsound.

But it

does

apply in this setup, so stop avoiding the claims I've put forward and start answering for your play throughout this game.

Are you

serious

?

Need I say more?

Seriously, though. I have nothing to answer for. You have made no claims against me. Your only "claim", per se, is that I'm either a noob or scum. All other statements you have made regarding your suspicion of me have been addressed repeatedly, in this post and others. If anything, you're the one who's been avoiding. You have yet to explain how it could possible apply in this setup, whereas I have given reasons for it not to apply. All you have said so far is that "it

does

apply in this setup". That's not a very convincing reason, and frankly, I'm tiring of hearing you repeat your useless propoganda.

Explain OR Refrain

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not playing for myself. I would defend myself, should I be attacked, but I care far more about the well-being of the town on the whole than my own townie life.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm omitting the top part, because it is rather pointless and off-topic for us to argue those things, as I'm sure you agree. It just wastes space and time for the both of us. I also edited out parts where we both would've just degenerated into mindless insults over something that wasn't really relevant.

This is not

mafia

per se. There is no informed minority. We have an uninformed majority against and uninformed minority.

Which is no different from any other setup with only SK as scum, except there are no power roles.

And what's your point?

Just because there could be another setup with only SK as scum doesn't change the fact that not all basic theory applies.

Much of basic theory applies in such setups as I described. There's a slight additional layer of complexity in this one. Other than that, not much has changed.

Much of basic theory does apply. However, it is not a fact that random lynches are better than no lynch in an SK-only setup. That's what we're arguing about. There is no proof that your statement is correct in the other setups you described, so we do not know whether or not it is true in this setup.

There is no advanatage to the SKs, because they only know their role, and no one else's.

Yes there is. There are no power roles among the town by which scum can be ratted out.

That's not an advantage. That's taking away an advantage from the town.

Okay, so in a more common setup, you'd have the informed, powered minority versus the powered majority. Let's say the power of each side equates to one apple. Now, we're going to make the minority uninformed, but keep their power, and take the power away from the majority. One side still has the power roles (ie. killing roles/SKs), while the other relies entirely on the lynch to win.

That's giving the minority a hand, even if they're playing blind.

That's just wrong. The "common" setup is an informed, doubly-powered (kills and other abilities such as godfather) minority against a powered majority. You take away the power from both sides, leaving you with the powered, informed minority against the majority. This is the basic, balanced setup originally created by Dimma Davidoff in Moscow. This setup takes the informed minority and makes it uninformed, but gives it a few extra kills a night. Then it gives the majority even more people to balance out the extra kills, but does not make up for the fact that the minority is no longer informed. Sure, the game is still winnable for scum, but it's much harder now.

Sure, anyone who's played more than a week knows that a random lynch is better than a no lynch. However, anyone that's played more than 2 weeks should know that no game theory applies in 100% of all situations, and that one should always be willing to question game theory when it seems unsound.

But it

does

apply in this setup, so stop avoiding the claims I've put forward and start answering for your play throughout this game.

Are you

serious

?

Need I say more?

Seriously, though. I have nothing to answer for. You have made no claims against me. Your only "claim", per se, is that I'm either a noob or scum.

My claim is that since you're not a noob, and your entire stance on the "let's no lynch" thing is only something a noob _would_ say, you've got to be scum. There is absolutely _no_ logical reason not to lynch on Day 1 in this setup.

There is also no logical reason to random lynch on Day 1. Which is why we should neither no lynch nor random lynch.

All other statements you have made regarding your suspicion of me have been addressed repeatedly, in this post and others.

You still haven't made any case as to why a no lynch is actually the right play that has stuck.

It's

not

the right play. Neither is a random lynch. You have yet to make a case as to why a random lynch is actually the right play.

If anything, you're the one who's been avoiding.

Oh?

You have yet to explain how it could possible apply in this setup, whereas I have given reasons for it not to apply.

You supplied hypothetical scenarios where a No Lynch is the right play. Awesome. Have a cookie. But they're entirely irrelevant to THIS setup. You've explained nothing.

And you have? You have yet to supply ANY scenarios, this setup or otherwise, that show that a random lynch is better than a no lynch. I, on the other hand, have explained how random lynching and losing an extra townie is not beneficial in this situation. We have plenty of time to catch the three SKs, let's not squander it by randomly lynching protown people. The more informed our lynches are, the better chance we have to find scum.

All you have said so far is that "it

does

apply in this setup". That's not a very convincing reason, and frankly, I'm tiring of hearing you repeat your useless propoganda.

To be candid, I'm surprised no one else has taken as much notice of your proposed No Lynching this early in the game.

You need to pay more attention before you get all gung-ho next time. Nowhere have I said that no lynch is my preferred plan of action right now. Do you see me voting No Lynch? No. That's because I want to have an informed lynch, which gives us a better chance of finding scum than either a no lynch or a random lynch. I merely support no lynch over the proposed random lynch, which would not help us at all.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Out of curiousity, what made you think that was forgotten? Neither BB nor I said anything about the SKs killing each other, and no one else is talking about the setup...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I appreciate MoS actually thinking and discussing suggestions.

and, for the moment I'm going to

unvote, vote: no lynch

while I think about what has been said.

o.O

[Mastermind of Sin]

Is it just me, or does it seem like we're about to descend into the argumentative equivalent of "I'm right! No, I'm right! You're wrong and I'm right...etc, etc..."? Might just be me, though.

This is not

mafia

per se. There is no informed minority. We have an uninformed majority against and uninformed minority.

Which is no different from any other setup with only SK as scum, except there are no power roles.

And what's your point?

Just because there could be another setup with only SK as scum doesn't change the fact that not all basic theory applies.

Much of basic theory applies in such setups as I described. There's a slight additional layer of complexity in this one. Other than that, not much has changed.

Much of basic theory does apply. However, it is not a fact that random lynches are better than no lynch in an SK-only setup. That's what we're arguing about. There is no proof that your statement is correct in the other setups you described, so we do not know whether or not it is true in this setup.

For Day 1 it _is_. At a later point in the game when we don't have 15 town, then sure, I can see scenarios where NL is definitely the right play.[/quote]

Hardly. You have yet to

prove

that random lynching is better than No Lynch right now. You are assuming that is a given, and going from there. It's not a given at all, and that's what I'm asking you to convince me of. With 15 town, we only have a 1/6 chance of catching scum by lynching randomly. 1/6 is not good enough for me to want to random lynch.

There is no advanatage to the SKs, because they only know their role, and no one else's.

Yes there is. There are no power roles among the town by which scum can be ratted out.

That's not an advantage. That's taking away an advantage from the town.

Okay, so in a more common setup, you'd have the informed, powered minority versus the powered majority. Let's say the power of each side equates to one apple. Now, we're going to make the minority uninformed, but keep their power, and take the power away from the majority. One side still has the power roles (ie. killing roles/SKs), while the other relies entirely on the lynch to win.

That's giving the minority a hand, even if they're playing blind.

That's just wrong. The "common" setup is an informed, doubly-powered (kills and other abilities such as godfather) minority against a powered majority.

That's dependent on a few things (number of players mainly), but sure, I can go with that.[/quote]

With more players, you just add more people to both sides to balance it. Adding power roles is just getting fancy. But that's not really relevant to what we're discussing

You take away the power from both sides, leaving you with the powered, informed minority against the majority. This is the basic, balanced setup originally created by Dimma Davidoff in Moscow. This setup takes the informed minority and makes it uninformed, but gives it a few extra kills a night. Then it gives the majority even more people to balance out the extra kills, but does not make up for the fact that the minority is no longer informed. Sure, the game is still winnable for scum, but it's much harder now.

I think you're putting too little off-set in the increased number of kills. Sure, it is, by definition, harder for any one given scum to win because there's not a team of scum working together. On the other hand, the other scum are going to be getting nightly kills as well, to which the given SK afore-noted is immune. What it all boils down to, is we have three needles in a haystack and they have a damn good shot at this game.

They do have a good shot at this game. That doesn't mean we should make it easier for them by random lynching.

There are plenty of reasons for which a Day 1 lynch is a very good, and in many cases, necessary thing.

Care to elaborate on this "plenty" reasons?

Especially given that in this setup we have no power roles amongst the town by which information can be gleaned (ie. cops), we need to start narrowing down the number of folks among the town who could be scum. Lynching, along with the SKs night kills, will accomplish this, and as a result, move us along towards ratting out the SKs and lynching _them_.

There is NEVER a reason to want to reduce the number of protown players alive, unless you are scum.

All you have said so far is that "it

does

apply in this setup". That's not a very convincing reason, and frankly, I'm tiring of hearing you repeat your useless propoganda.

To be candid, I'm surprised no one else has taken as much notice of your proposed No Lynching this early in the game.

You need to pay more attention before you get all gung-ho next time. Nowhere have I said that no lynch is my preferred plan of action right now. Do you see me voting No Lynch? No. That's because I want to have an informed lynch, which gives us a better chance of finding scum than either a no lynch or a random lynch. I merely support no lynch over the proposed random lynch, which would not help us at all.

This setup cannot possibly have an informed Day 1 lynch. Most setups don't. The fact of the matter is, in either case, for this Day, in order to start progressing, we simply need to make a lynch. If it has to be a random lynch in order to achieve it, then so be it. Then we can finally move on to the part of the game where we can start making informed lynches.[/quote]

Every setup can make an informed D1 lynch. You are clearly too used to relying on power roles in this game. In Himalayan mafia, there were 4 mafia and a bunch of townies, and the town lynched scum the first two days of the game. This wasn't by accident, we made informed lynches and caught scum without the help of power roles. We can do the same thing in this setup, and have a better chance at catching scum than a random lynch.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote:Ksope

Still WIFOM, Sk Or Mafia.

FoS: YB

for trying to throw oil on the fire. There is NO MAFIA in this game, how can Kscope be mafia?

[Mastermind of Sin]

It allows for

different

scumtells. Just because there is no one working together does not mean that there are no scumtells. People do plenty of scummy things without having relation to another person. Any protown person that is only looking out for themself might as well give up now, because that's not going to help us. If Ksc0pe happens to be town by some stretch of the imagination, he's got the right idea in looking out more for the town than himself. I don't necessarily agree with his plan of action, but at least he has the right sentiment.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I say we should lynch today, if we don't we simply miss the chance to get an SK, with potentially 3 kills tonight without us really getting anywhere, we should lynch in most situations (obviously not all).

EXACTLY why I've been trying to stop the "no lynch" bandwagon.

What no lynch bandwagon?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod: Prod DYH, please

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't like a no-lynch on day 1. A lynch gives us a 1 in 6 chance of hitting. A no lynch doesn't do that.

And, the SKs get 3 NKs between them. So, 1 extra townie (should the lynch go bad) doesn't really make much of a difference.

Another thing is, that for how many days are we going to carry out the no-lynch (if we do one today that is)? The arguments for a no-lynch today would be more or less valid tomorrow too.

We shouldn't no lynch ever. At least, not anywhere near this point in the game. It's not a strategically sound option.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What do you think I've been trying to do? I've already found two possible scum, and a bunch of idiots are running around talking about how it's impossible to get scumtells and how we should just randomly select someone to die. It's idiocy...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why is it that people (especially ButteBlues and Qman) are so engrossed in their goddamn random lynch plan that they haven't even read the thread? It's not about a different approach, Qman. You're (everyone on the random lynch path, not just Qman) giving up on the challenge and not even playing the game. You see how hard it is to actually find SKs so you resort back to random lynching so you don't have to put any effort into it. You're not even putting in the effort to read the game, as evidenced by your questions on this page. I'd almost be willing to say that Jordan is protown, merely because he's actually paying attention and

being useful

.

And no, I won't refrain from calling people idiots when they're doing something really stupid. If you don't like it, you can replace yourself. I'm not here to get all buddy-buddy with everyone. That's what the discussion forums are for. I'm here to lynch nasty, filthy, devious, lying scum, and that could be you. I don't have to be nice about it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I am being respectful. That doesn't mean I won't call someone an idiot. I call all my friends idiots. That's not being disrespectful, it's being realistic. If someone doe something stupid, I'll point it out so they can fix it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd rather they just start pursuing scum instead of waiting to get in trouble and end up protown and a wasted lynch. I'm not going to let that happen, so I'll berate them

now

in the hopes that they don't continue and cost us the game

later

[Mastermind of Sin]

JDodge, I don't think it's Ryan alone... everyone is to blame for this. I don't think we have actually started to hunt scum yet. Some arguments on "Whether to random lynch or not" and "Does the Game theory for this one differ from general game theory" occupy most of the past few threads. And, to tell you the truth, I haven't got the slightest idea where to start from.

Try starting with Ryan and/or Ksc0pe. It also looks like DYH is volunteering to be a place to start from.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Not to mention the fact that there are

3 SKs

...ryan is one of them, but I have two more to find. Since Ksc0pe was a likely second SK, I had no problem voting him, when it seemed like people would be more willing to vote for him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I've been "volunteering" since this day began, if you're implying that by disagreeing with your thoughts on scum tells in this game I'm an "idiot".

Fact is, there is

zero

incentive for the scum in this game (all SKs) to act

any differently

than a townie on day one. As I've pointed out before, until they hit another SK with a night kill attempt, any body will do. They don't care who dies, unless it's them. Unfortunately, the town isn't all going to line up and "volunteer" today either and leave us with just three people unwilling to take one for the team.

No scum can play the "townie" act perfectly. They always slip up. It's idiocy to ignore everyone's actions and not look for that slip.

[Mastermind of Sin]

[quote="DYH"][quote="MoS"]No scum can play the "townie" act perfectly. They always slip up. It's idiocy to ignore everyone's actions and not look for that slip.[/quote]

Wrong. Scum can't play the "townie" act perfectly as

mafia

because they are inherently tied to and biased regarding their partners. Serial Killers in general attempt to play just like town, and without fear of being NKed here have no incentive to do otherwise in this game.

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]OK, name me the sk-tells, preferably the ones for d1, now. If you fail to do so, you're crying utter crap and will receive my vote.[/quote]

The man makes a good statement.

Like I've been saying all along, we're not going to have much to work with until there's a missing NK.[/quote]

I play as an SK when I'm mafia. Or more generally, I play as if I am a townie regardless of alignment. Are you saying that I am clearly infallible and cannot be caught as scum? If so, why am I being voted (not necessarily by you, of course), since I'm obviously acting like a townie?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Not to mention the fact that there are

3 SKs

...

ryan is one of them

, but I have two more to find. Since Ksc0pe was a likely second SK, I had no problem voting him, when it seemed like people would be more willing to vote for him.

I was trying to come up with the best way to answer this so I figured I'd go with the standard "You couldn't be more wrong" I'm tired of your bandwagon attempts on me, my vote stays with you and it's not moving till you are swinging from the tree SK. Jordan might be drinking your Kool-Aid, but I sure as heck am not.

unvote/vote Mastermind of Sin

Nice OMGUS.

[Mastermind of Sin]

After this first day should be interesting to see if any SK's target eachother

SK's can't kill eachother.

The SKs should attempt to kill someone that is another possible SK, because if that person doesn't die they are confirmed scum, and the SKs can slowly push for the other scum to be lynched, more ensuring their own victory.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd call Freudian slip, except that happens so often to protown players I dont' trust it anymore...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I haven't. I attacked you with non-OMGUS logic, and you're only argument against me has been that I'm scum for trying to push a bandwagon on you, then giving up momentarily to vote for my second suspicion. That's nearly 100% OMGUS right there.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, I read my role pm and forget within a week of the game starting, so there is no bias. I'm in like 11 games at once, so I can't keep my scumbuddies straight. I rarely even look at who my scumbuddies are, I just see that I'm scum and forget it right away. So I guess you could make the argument that I'm better at it than others, but I can't do it perfectly. There are still scumtells among SKs, because the SKs will try to suggest bad plans for the town and paint them as really good plans, or they'll try to covertly push a bandwagon on an easy target, or a myriad of other possibilities. The point is, there ARE things to look for, so don't just random lynch.

[Mastermind of Sin]

unvote, vote: Ryan

You already know where I stand on this issue.

[Mastermind of Sin]

bah. Why do the scum always kill me first in mountainous games?

[Mastermind of Sin]

This setup could've worked if not for some idiotic rules on yb's part.