NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #600 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:11 pm

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 589, Thor665 wrote:That also doesn't matter. I don't even wish to get into a 'is or isn't this multiball' discussion and never did - it's not germane to any issue on the table.

If you have an opinion about Pere calling me scummy for mentioning multiball or how I'm calling him scum for doing so - that would be excellent discussion to have.


I'm calling you out on your certainty that this 21 player game is mulitball.
In post 261, Thor665 wrote:Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption, and second off being wishy-washy is actually pretty solid scum play.

"Safe assumption" is not mentioning it. It means "it is safe to assume".

Now you can discuss how you didn't mean what you said. Or something, I'm sure.
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Post Post #601 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:13 pm

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 590, Thor665 wrote:
In post 126, Goofyd00d wrote:Considering 4 is the meta for almost garunteed, I would say 5 people in a hood contains a scum, and maybe even multi factions.

Here's another mention of multiball that didn't bother Pere.


Could be Goofy is scum.
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Post Post #602 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:19 pm

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 587, Scripten wrote:Uh huh... Because nobody makes votes just to gain good favor with the rest of the town, right?

Why would you think that voting you would earn Izariael good favor with the rest of the town?


His (intentional(?)) misinterpretations and the fact that he's ready to vote Thor for discussing multiball are huge red flags. Does nobody else follow why the latter is so scummy?

What did I misrep?
Everyone is trying to tell me why I'm wrong, but it hasn't worked so far. Give it a shot, though.
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Post Post #603 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:20 pm

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 599, Muffin wrote:
In post 594, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 582, Muffin wrote:scripten's a big boy, he doesn't need me to defend him despite your burning desire to argue with me about scripten's motives

ask him yourself, perv


Yet you are defending him.

The question is out there from both me and Axle. We'll see what he says.

i know, i need to stop arguing with my scumreads


Yeah, you started with and have been digging your hole deeper ever since. :shrug:
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Post Post #604 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:31 pm

Post by PeregrineV »

Before I forget-
@goodmorning- I was scum in Amurika, so I had to dodge you. You made it tricky and hard to do.
Two of the games you linked you were an alt or hydra or something.
The last (graveyard) had all around bad play by most of the town, so not using that as meta for this game. Got any more?
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Post Post #605 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:45 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 591, Cho wrote:Do you understand this, or rather, follow my train of thought?

I follow your train of thought but find it very surface oriented.
The point isn't that he called me scum for multiball commentary - the point is how and why he did it considering the conversation it was brought up in.

Does that make sense?

In post 597, PeregrineV wrote:Except Multiball means 2 scumteams, as per the definition: "Serial Killers and other one-person groups do not count; the term is specific to scum groups of multiple players."
So, your attempt to use SKs to discredit me is pretty blatant.
Your attempt to use 24 player games as examples is also blatant. I included them for reference, but 24 is not 21, and the setup and balance for each is different.
So, try 25%. And recently, none of them.

I will agree the wiki defines multiball as notincluding SKs.
I will also say I have been in a game witha 2-player SK.

That said - if you look at my comment to Nero it clearly included the idea of 'any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role'

Also, if I had clarified SK - I understand that 'SK hunting' is also considered a scumtell (or SK tell) so I don't actually see the point of even trying to draw the difference here.

Do you disagree that my comment means what I said it means here? And if you do, please explain why.

In post 598, PeregrineV wrote:Except you didn't say 21+. If you had, we wouldn't be discussing this.

:neutral:

Well...actually, yes, I said exactly that.

In post 557, Thor665 wrote:Please provide me a link to all the 21+ player games you have been in recently that were not multiball.


So I should add 'lying to butter up a case' to your scumtells then :lol:
You're trying to defend yourself in a pedantic manner.
It looks scummy to me.
What's up with this? Why don't you walk me through how and why you actually think your catch on me is scummy and also why it doesn't apply to Nero or Goofy - that would be interesting to hear moreso than the weak word dance you're doing now.
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Post Post #606 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:51 pm

Post by Scripten »

In post 595, Izariael wrote:
1)
My vote wasn't based at all on your WORDING of your reads.
Both you and Thor seem to think that I gave a shit about how you worded it. I didn't. What irked me about your reads is that they were the most bare bones reads ever. There was NOTHING of interest there that offered a glimpse of what is making your gears turn. Anyone can say "oh, they feel like scum. I think they're town. They seem town." I don't care about that. I want to know WHY you think that. What about their behavior has driven you to those conclusions? I've already clarified this and offered you an opportunity to explain your reads, and you still haven't done so, which I continue to find scummy. ,

Would you care to elaborate now? Your answers won't be alignment-indicative, but they will at least establish a ground zero for your reads. Then I can catch you lying later like the scum you are. Thanks.


My vote on Cho was due to the fact that she had very little actual content and she looked the scummiest of all the players I'd seen up until that point. Her should have been more than enough for an early vote. That said, () has me doubting if I should keep my vote there. I don't wholly agree with it, but it felt slightly townish. In fact, I have a much better vote to hop onto. I bet you'll confbias the hell out of that one, too.

In post 595, Izariael wrote:
PeregrineV's sheep on my vote was unexpected and unusual, but it's kind of the only red flag I've seen from him. PeregrineV's play here seems consistent with what I've seen from Town!Peregrine, so I don't really have a scum read on his slot at this time. I think Peregrine has a tendency to appear pretty scummy as town, so my past experience with him has me trying to look past my initial misgivings of his play and look for alternative motivations that could come from town. I'm still undecided on how I feel about him, but it's definitely not a "he must be scum" feeling.


"He always looks scummy to me, so I'm forgiving scummy behavior." Is this not what you are saying here?

In post 595, Izariael wrote:
And this is a terrible post. :neutral: If I say "@Everyone - Scripten claimed scum. I caught him. You may sheep me now." will you think this is a good post too?


If you actually had anything and I didn't have a sexy green role PM, maybe.

It's actually hilarious how badly both you and PereV are missing what Thor has been saying. I'm just pointing out how obvious it should be to everyone else. All of these attempts to outguess the mod/setup are really just moot points.

In post 601, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 590, Thor665 wrote:
In post 126, Goofyd00d wrote:Considering 4 is the meta for almost garunteed, I would say 5 people in a hood contains a scum, and maybe even multi factions.

Here's another mention of multiball that didn't bother Pere.


Could be Goofy is scum.


Scumreads for everyone!

In post 603, PeregrineV wrote:
Yeah, you started with and have been digging your hole deeper ever since. :shrug:


Spoiler: Heh
Image


UNVOTE: Cho
VOTE: PeregrineV
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Post Post #607 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:02 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 606, Scripten wrote:
In post 595, Izariael wrote:
PeregrineV's sheep on my vote was unexpected and unusual, but it's kind of the only red flag I've seen from him. PeregrineV's play here seems consistent with what I've seen from Town!Peregrine, so I don't really have a scum read on his slot at this time. I think Peregrine has a tendency to appear pretty scummy as town, so my past experience with him has me trying to look past my initial misgivings of his play and look for alternative motivations that could come from town. I'm still undecided on how I feel about him, but it's definitely not a "he must be scum" feeling.


"He always looks scummy to me, so I'm forgiving scummy behavior." Is this not what you are saying here?


No it's not, but thanks for trying to tarnish my credibility. I don't think my statement needs clarification.
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Post Post #608 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:42 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 587, Scripten wrote:
In post 568, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 392, Scripten wrote:
In post 368, Izariael wrote:
Top scumread would be Scripten. I'm irked by everything in his ISO. Non-committal, flimsy reads and a lackadaisical vote on top wagon are raising my hackles.

VOTE: Scripten


This looks like a vote for town cred rather than a vote based on actual scumhunting.

It's fairly early into D1, and you want solid reads on people? In a large?

Also, Cho was tied with TSO at
three
votes. I think I can deal with the guilt of putting someone at L-8 or so.


@Scripten

Please explain how you think that would get "town cred" and is not actual scum hunting.
(I fail to see your point of view) (I fail to see how you can hold your point of view.) (It feels made up.) Show me your perspective.


My explanation is literally right there in the quote. Everything about Izar's vote was based on pedantic "You use words that I'm going to construe as scummy because I said they are" logic and hyperbole. The top two wagons were on my top scumread and a town read. I don't (didn't) have a strong enough read on any other player to warrant starting another wagon.

In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:17. Scripten- early scumvibes. Some wording makes me wonder.392- A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum. Stuff like that keeps me from calling you town.


Uh huh... Because nobody makes votes just to gain good favor with the rest of the town, right? Izar hadn't finished reading the thread, and when you sheeped them, they even seemed surprised/possibly nervous. That said, you are looking WAY scummier than they are right now.

So ready to vote PereV. (Btw uhm... muffin, your nickname for him MIGHT not be apropro. :P ) His (intentional(?)) misinterpretations and the fact that he's ready to vote Thor for discussing multiball are huge red flags. Does nobody else follow why the latter is so scummy?


Well you may think its right there in the quote, but it still does not parse to me.
I accept that, "The top two wagons were on my top scumread and a town read. I don't (didn't) have a strong enough read on any other player to warrant starting another wagon.", is a reasonable position to have held.

You still have not explained how you see someone who you claim did this
Scripten said: "Everything about Izar's vote was based on pedantic "You use words that I'm going to construe as scummy because I said they are" logic and hyperbole."

is going to them trying to do
"Uh huh... Because nobody makes votes just to gain good favor with the rest of the town, right?"

If as i suspect you are scum that was probably your intent with post but missed the mark.

So are you telling me that people who make votes "based on pedantic" You use words that I'm going to construe as scummy because I said they are "logic and hyperbole."
are at all likely to get in good with town and hence as scum would do that to get in good with town?

Still not making sense as towny thought processes.
VOTE: Scripten
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Post Post #609 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:30 am

Post by goodmorning »

In post 604, PeregrineV wrote:Before I forget-
@goodmorning- I was scum in Amurika, so I had to dodge you. You made it tricky and hard to do.
Two of the games you linked you were an alt or hydra or something.
The last (graveyard) had all around bad play by most of the town, so not using that as meta for this game. Got any more?

Those are the ones we've both been players in at the same time.
You died before I replaced into Timeshift I, and I modded NY167 which you were a player in.

I still don't see why AMURIKA is relevant to this game or what point you're trying to make with it, and in Shadows I was in a hydra which the other partner abandoned after like 3 posts, so it's pretty much just me.
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Post Post #610 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:32 am

Post by Scripten »

In post 608, AxleGreaser wrote:
Well you may think its right there in the quote, but it still does not parse to me.
I accept that, "The top two wagons were on my top scumread and a town read. I don't (didn't) have a strong enough read on any other player to warrant starting another wagon.", is a reasonable position to have held.


Then read my (). You could also have tried looking at Cho's play up to that point.

In post 608, AxleGreaser wrote:
You still have not explained how you see someone who you claim did this
Scripten said: "Everything about Izar's vote was based on pedantic "You use words that I'm going to construe as scummy because I said they are" logic and hyperbole."

is going to them trying to do
"Uh huh... Because nobody makes votes just to gain good favor with the rest of the town, right?"


(). Overemphasis on my word choice (pedantry), the laughable position of a "solid null read" as contrast to my vote, (fishing for favor) and mentioning how my vote was on "the top wagon" (hyperbole) just to make sure their case looks stronger. Need I say more?

Just because a case is wordy doesn't mean it is right.
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Post Post #611 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:27 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 605, Thor665 wrote:
In post 591, Cho wrote:Do you understand this, or rather, follow my train of thought?

I follow your train of thought but find it very surface oriented.
The point isn't that he called me scum for multiball commentary - the point is how and why he did it considering the conversation it was brought up in.

Does that make sense?

In post 597, PeregrineV wrote:Except Multiball means 2 scumteams, as per the definition: "Serial Killers and other one-person groups do not count; the term is specific to scum groups of multiple players."
So, your attempt to use SKs to discredit me is pretty blatant.
Your attempt to use 24 player games as examples is also blatant. I included them for reference, but 24 is not 21, and the setup and balance for each is different.
So, try 25%. And recently, none of them.

I will agree the wiki defines multiball as notincluding SKs.
I will also say I have been in a game witha 2-player SK.

That said - if you look at my comment to Nero it clearly included the idea of 'any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role'

Also, if I had clarified SK - I understand that 'SK hunting' is also considered a scumtell (or SK tell) so I don't actually see the point of even trying to draw the difference here.

I saw what you said to Nero.
I saw what you said about the game.
Based on my experience, it's not multiball.
If you want to speculate there might be an SK in the game, I would wonder why you speculate that or why you care, but would probably agree.
If you try to speculate that Nero's actions point to him being the SK, then I'll tell you I don't get that.
I did not see in your comment where you were specifying a Serial Killer. You said Nero was not scumbuddies with Csar ().

Do you disagree that my comment means what I said it means here? And if you do, please explain why.

Try this format
-Thor's comment (linked)
-What Thor meant
Then I'll be able to answer it, since right now I'm not sure what you are asking.

In post 598, PeregrineV wrote:Except you didn't say 21+. If you had, we wouldn't be discussing this.

:neutral:

Well...actually, yes, I said exactly that.

In post 557, Thor665 wrote:Please provide me a link to all the 21+ player games you have been in recently that were not multiball.

My bad, I did misread that.
I assumed that you wanted to point out 21 player games that were multiball, because we are in a 21 player game that you stated was obviously multiball.
You may now argue for the nature of 21+ games, but I'll state in advance that changing the facts changes the arguement, esp. about something like mafia game size.

So I should add 'lying to butter up a case' to your scumtells then :lol:
You're trying to defend yourself in a pedantic manner.
It looks scummy to me.
What's up with this? Why don't you walk me through how and why you actually think your catch on me is scummy and also why it doesn't apply to Nero or Goofy - that would be interesting to hear moreso than the weak word dance you're doing now.


-Sure, why not.
-Being exact about what you said and what I said in a printed forum game is kind of the point of the printed forum game.
-OK
-I think that you saying that this game is obviously multiple mafia teams implies some sort of inside knowledge of the setup that you did not relate to the thread at the start of the game. Most commonly, this is through a scum role designation of specific mafia (Blue, Red, Mafia A, etc.), and less commonly through a town role (Mafia A cop, Red Mafia Cop, etc.). However, I don't think it is in your nature to "slip", nor to be so bold nor so brazen about possibly having a scumrole. So, as stated before,
In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball (261 and 265) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.


-I already pointed out the differences between mentioning, speculating, and stating. You've been pushing everything based on my 501 statement, and instead of just letting it go (which I do sometimes), I proceeded to point out why you were wrong. You've since continued to push for my lynch, not for actually being wrong in my opinion, conclusion, or summary, but because I have that opinion, posted that conclusion, and backed up that summary. Making this another case of (strength of reaction) vs (strength of initial post) (see Scripten vote).
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Post Post #612 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:28 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 606, Scripten wrote:It's actually hilarious how badly both you and PereV are missing what Thor has been saying. I'm just pointing out how obvious it should be to everyone else. All of these attempts to outguess the mod/setup are really just moot points.


What has Thor been saying? In your own words.
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Post Post #613 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:32 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 609, goodmorning wrote:
In post 604, PeregrineV wrote:Before I forget-
@goodmorning- I was scum in Amurika, so I had to dodge you. You made it tricky and hard to do.
Two of the games you linked you were an alt or hydra or something.
The last (graveyard) had all around bad play by most of the town, so not using that as meta for this game. Got any more?

Those are the ones we've both been players in at the same time.
You died before I replaced into Timeshift I, and I modded NY167 which you were a player in.

I still don't see why AMURIKA is relevant to this game or what point you're trying to make with it, and in Shadows I was in a hydra which the other partner abandoned after like 3 posts, so it's pretty much just me.


Tunneling is an extremely effective scum tactic used to avoid 90% of the rest of the players. The fact that 50% of your posts here are Csar tunnels is in contrast to the last memorable game with you, in which your town play was easily recognizable.

Assume I take you at your word that Grayfoxx is now a townread for you after all that, what's next on the goodmorning agenda?
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Post Post #614 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:37 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 611, PeregrineV wrote:
Do you disagree that my comment means what I said it means here? And if you do, please explain why.

Try this format
-Thor's comment (linked)
-What Thor meant
Then I'll be able to answer it, since right now I'm not sure what you are asking.

I asked this: That said - if you look at my comment to Nero it clearly included the idea of 'any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role'
About my post mentioning multiball.
That you called scummy.
This is not complicated - answer the question. You're the one who analyzed my post and found it alignment indicative - why not expand on your work?

In post 611, PeregrineV wrote:My bad, I did misread that.
I assumed that you wanted to point out 21 player games that were multiball, because we are in a 21 player game that you stated was obviously multiball.
You may now argue for the nature of 21+ games, but I'll state in advance that changing the facts changes the arguement, esp. about something like mafia game size.

I did not "change the facts" you did, or you misunderstood them. I am reminding you of what I clearly said.
Would you like to change your answer now that you understand the question?
Does it affect your read on me?
I also would LOVE you to point out where I said the game was obviously multiball.

In post 611, PeregrineV wrote:-I think that you saying that this game is obviously multiple mafia teams implies some sort of inside knowledge of the setup that you did not relate to the thread at the start of the game. Most commonly, this is through a scum role designation of specific mafia (Blue, Red, Mafia A, etc.), and less commonly through a town role (Mafia A cop, Red Mafia Cop, etc.). However, I don't think it is in your nature to "slip", nor to be so bold nor so brazen about possibly having a scumrole.

So it is suspect because...?

In post 611, PeregrineV wrote:-I already pointed out the differences between mentioning, speculating, and stating. You've been pushing everything based on my 501 statement, and instead of just letting it go (which I do sometimes), I proceeded to point out why you were wrong. You've since continued to push for my lynch, not for actually being wrong in my opinion, conclusion, or summary, but because I have that opinion, posted that conclusion, and backed up that summary. Making this another case of (strength of reaction) vs (strength of initial post) (see Scripten vote).

Actually I'm calling your entire use of logic here suspect and pointing out the double standard you are using n applying it and calling that scummy.
You have responded with further proof that you're either not really reading the game or are trying to bluster through my issues.
I don't feel like we're actually talking yet.
You're not talking openly, you're offering up misrepresented or half finished thoughts and then waving your hands wildly in the hopes this will go away.
I mean, look at the quote above. I asked you to explain how what I did was scummy - you didn't actually. You even admit that I wouldn't tend to do that as a slip which leaves...what exactly? If it wasn't a slip I was intentionally doing it? Okay...why? And why would it be scummy as opposed to, say, a town breadcrumb or something? Like, the logic just does not flow nor is it an answer as to why you concluded it was scummy.
I'm trying to talk with you.
Why are you dancing with me instead?
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Post Post #615 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:43 am

Post by Scripten »

In post 612, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 606, Scripten wrote:It's actually hilarious how badly both you and PereV are missing what Thor has been saying. I'm just pointing out how obvious it should be to everyone else. All of these attempts to outguess the mod/setup are really just moot points.


What has Thor been saying? In your own words.


Nah. I think you can figure it out. Actually, on that note, what part of finding it likely that this game is multiball is alignment-indicative? Do you think that scum have a better idea about the setup than town do?

P-Edit: Gorramit. Ninja'd by Thor.
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Post Post #616 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:44 am

Post by Aegor »

snatch
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Post Post #617 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:46 am

Post by Aegor »

Votecount 1.4


[1]
Aeronaut:
goodmorning
[1]
Aneninen:
T S O
[1]
Boonskiies:
Garmr
[3]
Cho:
Grayfoxxxx, Goofyd00d, Boonskiies
[1]
davesaz:
Cho
[1]
Egg:
davesaz
[2]
Nero Cain:
TobyLoby, hephaestus
:right: [5]
PeregrineV:
Egg, Thor665, Muffin, Aneninen, Scripten
[3]
Scripten:
Izariael, PeregrineV, AxleGreaser
[1]
TobyLoby:
Nero Cain
[1]
T S O:
TierShift

[1]
Not Voting:
Aeronaut

With 21 alive, it takes 12 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline:
(expired on 2014-10-18 22:12:03)

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Post Post #618 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:06 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 615, Scripten wrote: Do you think that scum have a better idea about the setup than town do?

I believe this.
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Post Post #619 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:06 am

Post by T S O »

Why?
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #620 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:12 am

Post by Thor665 »

Scum know their team size, team name, and PR composition which gives them more info to go on than town. Hence - they have a better idea of the setup.
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Post Post #621 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:17 am

Post by T S O »

But don't scum always know that?

I kinda feel that Scripten was going for, I don't know, specific set-up knowledge, rather than what he knows that scum know.

but that's none of my business
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #622 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:21 am

Post by Thor665 »

I'm not making it easier on him, because, frankly, he's dancing around Pere's question and I think it was a valid question so I wished to ding at him a bit.

What is your read on Pere though, t the moment? Your current wagon is doing nothing, so I think a vote move would be good for you (or a LOT more noise about Anemian)
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Post Post #623 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:23 am

Post by T S O »

I think you're definitely winning the argument, as you usually do - but I'm still not remotely sold on Pere-scum. I have been trying to get Aneninen-wagon on track, but everyone is busy voting your wagon. It's quite sad.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #624 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:24 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 614, Thor665 wrote:I also would LOVE you to point out where I said the game was obviously multiball.


In post 265, Thor665 wrote:
In post 266, Egg wrote:
In post 263, Thor665 wrote:Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption


Why? Also, if you're right, isn't Nero more likely town for seeming to genuinely assume there is no evidence for it?

Why? Because there are 21 players in this game.
And I could easily argue that he's more likely scum for trying to act like there's no reason to think that because scum are the only ones with legit evidence about the question and he's trying to cover for that knowledge but overplayed his hand.


It's not obvious, it's a safe assumption.
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