Mafia 66: Freelancer - Game over!

[Sir Tornado]

First post!

Random Vote: Ryan

[Sir Tornado]

Dang! Spinwizard beat me to it...

[Sir Tornado]

Battlemage, trying to find scum buddies in a game where the SKs don't know each other?

They don't? I think that a SK would be the first to spot it so...

Unvote

Vote Givlmrak

[:P]

[Sir Tornado]

Yogurt has the right idea, also I dislike the fact that two people opted to try and get a bandwagon vote rolling on me.

I got my eye on you Qman and Black-Moon.

Hmm... if you are correct in your post, then the band wagon would not be of any significance, because SKs don't know each other (which is what you said in post 38).

By the way, though I included a after my post voting (post 43) for you, I would have you know that it is not a random vote or even a silly vote, and I will be keeping it till I get a suitable candidate, and not unvoting if everyone starts unvoting their random votes.

Right now, with so little to go on, you are the first person on my list. (Not saying you are a SK or anything, but, to put it this way, if I was asked to select 1 person

right now

based on what we have, I would select you)

Sir T

[Sir Tornado]

EBWOP: In my last post...

Hmm... if you are correct in your post, then the band wagon would not be of any significance, because SKs don't know each other (which is what you said in post 38)

should have been:

Hmm... if you are correct in your post, then the band wagon would not be of any significance, because SKs don't know each other (which is what you said in post 38 )

[Sir Tornado]

Right now, I am suspicious of everyone and have no clue how to catch the SKs who would not be working in tandem but individually. I suspect the best way to catch them would be by just randomly voting people off.

If you want a random bandwagon, I would suggest jumping to Givlmrak, because that seems to be the biggest one. I haven't got anything against him at all... (in fact, I voted for him before the bandwagon even started) but, I think in this game, randomly voting people off might be our best chance.

The probability is not so great on day 1. We have to hit 3 people from 18. 4 people get eliminated each day and night cycle (unless we get SK in the first hit, or 2 or more SK decide to NK the same person)

Furthermore, the SKs won't be defending each other either. Heck, they don't even know each other! In fact, as of now, there is absolutely no difference between a SK and a townie, except the fact that the SK can kill at night. So, I find it hard to see how a SK might slip up here.

Anyone got any ideas other than randomly voting people off? Because, as I see it, as the town gets empty, the chances of hitting the SKs increase. However, even though the task seems impossible right now, I would be very surprised if we get a SK victory in this one...

[Sir Tornado]

This is a question for the mod

If one SK tries to kill another SK, do we, the town know that the attempt has failed and the name of the player who has escaped the NK by the virtue of being SK?

[Sir Tornado]

Unvote

Vote: Sir Tornado

I'm just using your suggestion. Let's start with you.

Sure. I don't mind being voted out as long as I win in the end.

[Sir Tornado]

Unvote

Vote: Sir Tornado

I'm just using your suggestion. Let's start with you.

unvote, vote: DYH

I always find this kind of thing mildly scummy. It's the sort of thing that can fairly easily lead to a not-insignificant bandwagon on an innocent. Not damning evidence, but it'll do for now.

Mos, if you can't remember who you're voting for, how about voting DYH with me?

Oh don't get me wrong, I have no intention of seeing this bandwagon through; just testing the waters.

For today,

I'd honestly prefer to ultimately lynch a lurker

. The main reason you don't do it in traditional games is that they could have a power role. There are no town power roles, only insight. So if you're not going to post, you're not using your power.

"What!?" You ask, "are you crazy? You just told the SKs to post more!"

Exactly. Now they feel compelled to contribute, and they'll be plenty to glean from that later.

Unvote

Sorry but I can't disagree more with that statement. I'd rather see a lurker prodded and than replaced if necessary but lynching just to lynch is never a smart move

Funny ryan seems to say that. I have been in a game with him where he basically went 100% after lurkers!

[Sir Tornado]

No. I never think that is a good idea. I am always all for not eliminating

anyone

until and unless we have heard from

everyone

.

[Sir Tornado]

What up the mini bandwagon that is currently starting on Givlmrak right now, bad or warranted?

I think it is random. A random bandwagon will fall on

someone

, at least in the beginning. Besides, when you need 10 votes to lynch someone, 4 votes doesn't seem too threatening. So, as of now, it is neither bad, nor warranted.

[Sir Tornado]

unvote

[Sir Tornado]

Actually, I disagree that lynching a lurker is a good strategy, even for this setup. I only suggested this for 2 reasons:

a) to find out who would support such a horrible idea and pick out the scum
b) to put pressure on the lurker to post and contribute, lest they be lynched.

Also, while Blahgo's response was not helpful AT ALL, I believe that it fits more as a newbish reponse, because scum are more likely to respond to the pressure and try to defend/explain themselves in that sort of situation.

So, what, according to you is the best idea for hunting SK on day 1? I suggested, in the beginning that we have no choice but to random lynch on day 1 unless one SK makes a big mistake, but the random lynch should occur only after everyone participates in the discussion, and we have everyone's views. Do you agree with that?

[Sir Tornado]

Vote Blahgo

[Sir Tornado]

Unvote

because Lowell, unlike Blahgo is actually posting, and, if there were a deadline, I don't want him on 5 votes.

[Sir Tornado]

My apologies on my lurking but...

[quote="Estes"]I don't really have much more to say. It's basically just a random vote at this point.[/quote]

I agree with this. There have been some events that I was not quite able to understand, one of them being the bandwagon on BM... I mean, where did that come from?

Look at it again:

246) ChannelDelibird votes for him " just because, dammit."

248) Ryan follows suit. Understandable because they had a spat early on.

254) Estes casts his vote

256) KaleiÐoscøpe votes BM

258) DYH votes

260,261) ButteBlues and Qman vote.

265)BM votes himself

But, why? Why the sudden bandwagon in the space of 20 posts?

[Sir Tornado]

[quote="Occult"]Vote Count-10 2 lynch
BM is not allowed to vote two people at once. He isn't God, goddammit.

1 - ChannelDelibird (johhan)
3 - Lowell (SpinWizard, Givlmrak, Sir Tornado)
1 - Qman (YogurtBandit)
2 - ryan (Mastermind of Sin, JDodge)
2 - JDodge (Black-Moon, Lowell,)
7 - JordanA24 (ChannelDelibird, ButteBlues, Qman, Estes, DYH, KaleiÐoscøpe, Rand Althor)
1 - KaleiÐoscøpe (JordanA24)
1 - None (bethelmark)[/quote]

Hi.

I unvoted Lowell in post 245.

[quote="In Post 245, Sir Tornado"]

Unvote

because Lowell, unlike Blahgo is actually posting, and, if there were a deadline, I don't want him on 5 votes.[/quote]

[Sir Tornado]

I had a vote on BM earlier but since he's been replaced I will

Unvote/Vote: Mastermind of Sin

I like how you attempted to put me into a follower instead of a leader, and since I know I'm pro town and you attempted to start a bandwagon on me near a deadline (while I was on vacation) I have no problem going back to you on my vote

Ryan, I do not understand this. Just because BM has been replaced, doesn't mean that his role has been changed. If he was the SK then, his replacement (Jordan A24) would be SK now. So, your reasons for voting BM should be valid even now.

[Sir Tornado]

I don't like a no-lynch on day 1. A lynch gives us a 1 in 6 chance of hitting. A no lynch doesn't do that.

And, the SKs get 3 NKs between them. So, 1 extra townie (should the lynch go bad) doesn't really make much of a difference.

Another thing is, that for how many days are we going to carry out the no-lynch (if we do one today that is)? The arguments for a no-lynch today would be more or less valid tomorrow too.

[Sir Tornado]

Especially given that in this setup we have no power roles amongst the town by which information can be gleaned (ie. cops), we need to start narrowing down the number of folks among the town who could be scum. Lynching, along with the SKs night kills, will accomplish this, and as a result, move us along towards ratting out the SKs and lynching _them_.

Are you saying that we need to start lynching town off because we would have a better chance at getting SKs from a smaller town?

[Sir Tornado]

JDodge, I don't think it's Ryan alone... everyone is to blame for this. I don't think we have actually started to hunt scum yet. Some arguments on "Whether to random lynch or not" and "Does the Game theory for this one differ from general game theory" occupy most of the past few threads. And, to tell you the truth, I haven't got the slightest idea where to start from.

[Sir Tornado]

Ryan: Lowell seems to be away. He's not posting much in any of the other games I am in with him either.

[Sir Tornado]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Yes, yes, I'm scum....

Now can we hammer someone?[/quote]

plus

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Day 1's are not usefull. All scumtells do not apply in this game. In general, trying to stir up discussion and attacking someone for what you think are "reasons" is scummy.[/quote]

equals

vote KaleiÐoscøpe

[Sir Tornado]

Like I've been saying all along, we're not going to have much to work with until there's a missing NK.

We still have to lynch someone today.

Do we have any sort of deadline?

[Sir Tornado]

This is hopeless. We will never get 10 votes on anyone! Are there even 10 active posters around?

[Sir Tornado]

Is there any chance of DYH wagoners to join the Kaleidoscope wagon? That would make it 9 on KS (he is voting for himself too!)

[Sir Tornado]

Oh a Ryan bandwagon?

I wanted to bandwagon Ryan for a LONG time

Unvote

Vote: Ryan

[Sir Tornado]

Um, yeah...

Goodbye Ryan

[Sir Tornado]

With 2 deaths, it looks like one of the SK's targetted another one, that makes me doubly certain that at least one of Butte, Yagami, Theo and Sir Tornado is an SK. I'll reread ASAP.

Why?

[Sir Tornado]

Only 2 kills, but 3 SKs? Hmm...

My plan today is to just sit around until someone says "hey, *wink wink* I have good reason to think we should kill player X, *wink wink*".

Then I'll kill player X.

Then his accuser.



Sounds pretty good to me. Anyone?

But I will

Vote

you before you

kill

anyone at all.

Vote: Lowell

[Sir Tornado]

Wow... this town is lynch happy isn't it?

I should remember to direct the next person who tells me "quick lynches don't occur in forum mafia" to this game.

[Sir Tornado]

Butte is strange, day-to-day he looks like scum or town
Yogurt is annoying and I wish that he would drown
I can never find too much when theo is around

Rand is fairly scummy as were ryan and Kaleidoscope
We should take Lowell now and hang him with a rope
If the lurkers don't start posting soon I don't think I can cope
And now that I am finished I look like a complete dope!

That doesn't sound as bad as it looks... and it actually rhymes

[Sir Tornado]

Lowell? Can we hear your explanation regarding your slip?

[Sir Tornado]

Further note to all: Call this a metagaming issue, but I dont' really believe in "slips". This isn't live. Folks have as long as they need to reread posts and correct them for incriminating words. The way to find scum is behavior at different points in the game, not by "slip-ups"

And I'll metagame a bit and tell you that that statement is as incorrect as the one you made about "quick lynches" recently (Check Albert B. Rampage's sig for it). Slips do happen if the person is not thinking at the time of posting. It usually happens when you are lying for a long time and you forget what you lied about earlier in the game.

[Sir Tornado]

Maybe.

But I'm still right about the quicklynches. They reeeeeeeallly don't happen. Don't know what to tell you.

That's not true. Look at Ryan lynch in this game. Boy was that quick! (it hardly took a day for the bandwagon to start and for the lynch to take place)

[Sir Tornado]

It could be possible that Lowell is SK and targeted Estes in N1 and failed to kill him.

[Sir Tornado]

Why would he do that, he'd be sacrificing himself for the towns benefit, which would make no sense for an SK.

His play today is not making sense to me even if he is a townie.

[Sir Tornado]

But I'm fairly positive of Lowell and Jordan from their reactions; notice that they were the only ones "suspicious" enough of my lack of reasoning to FoS me.

This is poor reasoning JDodge. I was suspicious of it, you said you thought I was an SK with no previous warning, nor any evidence to support it, I asked why, and when you still refused to give evidence, so naturally, I thought you were just accusing me for the hell of it.

As well as this, Sir T hasn't posted here since you made the post, and Estes might well have missed it.

I have seen it. I have also seen JDodge pull out similar comments (which turned out entire false) in another game I was in with him, which was why I did not bother to comment.

[Sir Tornado]

And, as an afterthought to my last post, I would like to add that JDodge turned out to be a townie in that game. So, I presume making comments and not disclosing his reasons is JDodge's usual style... right? (has anyone played with him before?)

[Sir Tornado]

My second point for catching the serial scum is that they'll still be active and more prominently playing pro-town, yeh I guess one could be hardcore lurking but I think it's likely they're acting as pro-town as possible, which means probably avoiding suspicion and hence not joining the late wagon on Ryan. They will also avoid making incredibly scummy posts which attract attention like Lowells.

I find this entire part very WIFOMish.

I don't know how you play the game theo, but I treat my games a commitment. I try to sign up only those many games which can be handled by me keeping in mind my RL schedule. I am deeply offended by your comment that I am SK because I have not asked for replacement yet. I have not yet asked for replacement in any of my games so far on this site, because I feel asking for replacement is bad and causes some inconvenience to the mod and other players and should be avoided as far as possible. I have never been replaced in any of my games; so, are you trying to say that I am scum in all of my games?

I agree with you about the replacements though, I know if I had an SK role, I wouldn't want to be replaced, IMO SK is the coolest role you could have, you get to kill every night without having to cover up for scumbuddies.

Do you want to be replaced Jordan? If you don't, then is this an admission that you are a SK?

Personally, I feel SK role sucks. You are all alone by yourself in the game without anyone on your own side with a very low chance of winning the game.

I see absolutely no correlation between replacements and having specific roles. As per my understanding of replacements, they should be asked if you have problems with playing the game (RL issues, problems with other players, w/e) not for signing off from games where you don't like your roles. If the rest of the players don't agree here, and are going to accuse me of being an SK only because I have not asked for being replaced, I will ask to be replaced, just so that the town can have one person less to consider as a possible SK.

But then again, both Sir T and Yogurt have posted loads today, I'm not sure which evidence is stronger, mine about posting today or replacements. For now, FOS: Yogurt & Sir T

I am not sure if I understood what you were saying here. Can you repost this in more clearer terms?

[Sir Tornado]

I agree with you about the replacements though, I know if I had an SK role, I wouldn't want to be replaced, IMO SK is the coolest role you could have, you get to kill every night without having to cover up for scumbuddies.

Do you want to be replaced Jordan? If you don't, then is this an admission that you are a SK?

Of course it's not, I'm very happy with my townie role, and I certainly wouldn't admit I was an SK if I was one under no pressure at all.

But then again, both Sir T and Yogurt have posted loads today, I'm not sure which evidence is stronger, mine about posting today or replacements. For now, FOS: Yogurt & Sir T

I am not sure if I understood what you were saying here. Can you repost this in more clearer terms?

I'm saying that I'm not sure whether to stick with my vote on Theo, or put it on you or Yogurt because of the replacement thing. But I think it'll stay on Theo, since someone may want to be replaced for issues outside the game as well.

Don't you see the contradiction in your own post?

1. You claim that you don't want to be replaced and are perfectly happy with your townie role

2. You contemplate voting me or YB because we haven't been replaced yet.

From this, I can draw 2 inferences:

1) You are incapable of imagining that I or YB or both of us can be happy with our own townie roles.

2) You actually don't have a townie role, which is why you are happy with it, and feel I and YB don't have the townie role because we are happy with our roles.

Which one is it?

[Sir Tornado]

EBWOP:

There should have been an "OR" connector between the 2 inferences I draw in my post 708

[Sir Tornado]

See the end of my post, my vote stays on Theo because I think replacements can happen for things outside the game. And also, they do have much less to do with roles than ingame activity.

So, why did you FOS me and YB? My post 708 still stands because of this.

[Sir Tornado]

Unvote

Vote: JordanA24

Don't find your replies satisfactory, sorry. I don't buy that you changed your opinion so much in 140 minutes.

FOSes are quite a serious matter, I assure.

[Sir Tornado]

Of course my opinion can change in 2 hours, it's not that big a difference, thinking replacements are quite a big tell to it not being such a big tell.

It is when you were considering voting for me and YB and now say that even the FOSes don't matter.

I think that you never thought that replacement was a scum tell at all. You were merely trying to build up on theo's theory and try to get us lynched. You did not vote for me or YB because at that point you were waiting to see if anyone else supported that theory. Had no one done so and counter accused theo, you already had your vote on him. Had they supported the theory, you would have turned that FOS you had on both of us into a vote on one of us.

[Sir Tornado]

I think Sir Tornado's over-reacted a bit here . . . just my initial thoughts.

I did over react and that was because you did not point out anything scummy in the way I have played so far, but you hinted that I would have seeked replacement when I got my townie role, which I felt was an unfair judgement on your part.

[Sir Tornado]

If you're talking about my "SK's are less likely to flake theory", two problems:

1) It's not WIFOM, why would someone flake so someone who happens to replace them gets a better chance of winning.

2) You're ignoring Theo.

It doesn't make you less scummier. The truth is that Theo proposed some crazy scheme and you jumped on it (while leaving your vote on Theo). It seemed like you were waiting to see whether people would buy Theo's theory or jump on him -- you were remaining noncommittal. In my book, it makes you more scummier than Theo.

[Sir Tornado]

Yeah, so that's why I like my theory better than Theo's. And #2 was another pointer on why his reason for lynching me is null, Theo is more lynch-worthy than I am, so why he's ignoring him is beyond me.

I'm more apt to distrust someone bandwagoning onto a hair-brained idea than the person who suggested such an idea to begin with for fairly obvious reasons.

QFT. That is more or less what I've been saying in my reason for voting Jordan.

[Sir Tornado]

I will vote Lowell eventually if no one is willing to join me on Jordan-wagon or form a Theo-wagon.

[Sir Tornado]

Well, Jordan and Theopor don't seem to be anywhere near the lynch, so I will go on my original vote:

Vote: Lowell

[Sir Tornado]

I am a bit wary after Theo voted for himself. It's not what SKs normally do.

[Sir Tornado]

Unvote

Vote: Theo

Seems like Theo wagon does have a chance after all...

[Sir Tornado]

Vote: Jordan

This game is getting boring.

[Sir Tornado]

Ok, lets try to get this game somewhere. On the first night, the green and the blue SK struck, and on the second night, the red and the blue SK struck.

This means, that the the red and the green SK know the identity of one SK each. That may be each other, that may be the Blue SK, or that may be one of them and the blue SK, we cannot tell right now.

Now, what we need to figure out is, that will the SKs keep each other alive right now, so that they can kill town off more easily? Or will they be the people going hardest after someone?

[Sir Tornado]

Oh, and...

Vote Butteblues

because there is a SK killing with blue paint.

Honestly, this is the best I can do right now... I don't have any sort of reads on anyone.

[Sir Tornado]

Hi

[Sir Tornado]

Great!

Discuss my vote on Butteblues

[Sir Tornado]

I agree. Keep all the players who have posted this day alive. Then, kill everyone off.

[Sir Tornado]

Unvote

[Sir Tornado]

This means we are effectively at Ly-Lo right now... we lynch incorrectly, we lose any chance of victory.

[Sir Tornado]

Explain the vote Estes.

[Sir Tornado]

Oh, and if Jalyn indeed comes up SK, especially the blue SK, I would suspect Estes of being the red SK...

Seriously, Tome of Hugo?

[Sir Tornado]

Ah, ok, I'll check 41 soon Estes.

Many people may not like what I am saying, but it is a great idea NOT to lynch a SK right now unless we are sure of hitting both of them. 1 SK alive = Town loses. 2 SKs alive = They fight like mad to get the upper hand.

I think we should no lynch. Always. We no lynch right now, and if SKs kill, we are left with 4. No lynch again. The game eventually goes to a tie, which I would prefer right now because it impossible to get 2 SKs in a row.

So, Jalyn, Estes, leave your votes where they are at the moment. Others, do not vote any one of them. We'll tie this one.

Alternatively, is there a way to agree for a tie if everyone wants a draw?

[Sir Tornado]

It seems that Jordan might be one of the SKs.

If we have a lynch now, DO NOT lynch anyone.

Right now, 6 players. If I die, 5 players. 2 NKs, leaves 3 players. Out of those 3, you have 1 townie, 2 SK.

To whosoever that townie is DO NOT lynch anyone at that stage. PUSH for a No-Lynch and let the SKs tie the game.

If 4 players are left, (that is, only 1 player dies) DO NOT lynch. 4 players = 2 townies. You lynch 1 SK, the other one NKs one townie and endgames another, which we DO NOT want.

I am quite willing to settle for a draw. I just don't want the SKs to win this. The worst thing we can do right now is to lynch a SK, because then, we will have to lynch the remaining SK in a ly-lo situation, with practically no information on any of them.

Vote: No Lynch

[Sir Tornado]

Unvote

Just saw Jalyn's post after I posted

Vote: Sir Tornado

Remember, DO NOT lynch anyone tomorrow under ANY circumstances.

[Sir Tornado]

My twisted logic for the stance I am taking: If I can't win, no one should be able to win. That's a great philosophy in life.

[Sir Tornado]

I am fine by my lynch if you do not lynch any one after this. That's the pre requisite: DO NOT LYNCH ANYONE AFTER THIS.

If you do, the town loses.

If you don't, the town still loses, but the SKs lose too. That's what I want.

[Sir Tornado]

That is correct, I am self voting.

Midnight forum time is midnight GMT or BST? (Forum time is a bit vague, because you can set your timezone to whatever you want to)

[Sir Tornado]

Estes: It is simple.

I am trying to get myself lynched. The whole game goes into limbo when I get lynched. No one can win anything.

[Sir Tornado]

I think I have the SKs...

Estes is one SK. Either Jordan or Jalyn is another. I am leaning towards Jordan though.

[Sir Tornado]

Someone needs to vote me quickly. We are approaching the deadline with a no-lynch.

[Sir Tornado]

Er... never mind. We are having a lynch.

[Sir Tornado]

Heh, go town.

[Sir Tornado]

Technically, the town can't "go", so...

Don't go SKs! lol

[Sir Tornado]

Mod Edit: No talking from dead players, thank you.

[Sir Tornado]

Well, I think the mass modkill hurt us. But that really was the only way. Retarded setup.