NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #575 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:52 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 557, Thor665 wrote:
Please provide me a link to all the 21+ player games you have been in recently that were not multiball.
I presume it's a majority?


Dont mind me, go on throwing rocks at one another.

The first completed large game I looked at was Old Lady mafia 2 setup
5 Scum had no extra KP, town had extra KP and 3 shot cop and a doc. (yes i do know the normal accuracy of hero/yolo vig shots, and the rarity of them being used to just take out the trash)

If that game was balanced with this player base (scum won) could you link me to 21P multiball game you thought was balanced?
Ive never played in a multi. So prefrably also a multi that wont hurt if I read it.

So my sample of 1 had majority of non multi...
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Post Post #576 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:54 pm

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 568, AxleGreaser wrote:
Fluff
: (a benchmark)
Hi, I am your Alina replacement, she didnt make any(zero) posts that I disagree with, so no Amish tell here.
However in the same way that Meta (see post ) you are self aware of, and is modifiable, is thus usually completely null, then no Amish tell is null for me too. (@Muffin: have two cookies, @Iza: also I am also disappoint)

Spoiler: More fluff
I have a wiki page and One completed game and although its newbie ought give you peek under the hood.


RBS over (random bullshit phase)


In post 392, Scripten wrote:
In post 368, Izariael wrote:
Top scumread would be Scripten. I'm irked by everything in his ISO. Non-committal, flimsy reads and a lackadaisical vote on top wagon are raising my hackles.

VOTE: Scripten


This looks like a vote for town cred rather than a vote based on actual scumhunting.

It's fairly early into D1, and you want solid reads on people? In a large?

Also, Cho was tied with TSO at
three
votes. I think I can deal with the guilt of putting someone at L-8 or so.


@Scripten

Please explain how you think that would get "town cred" and is not actual scum hunting.
(I fail to see your point of view) (I fail to see how you can hold your point of view.) (It feels made up.) Show me your perspective.



Also while I usually try not to tread in other peoples puddles, I am not fully up to speed, so pardon any size 12's.


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Post Post #577 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:00 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 576, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 568, AxleGreaser wrote:
Fluff
: (a benchmark)
Hi, I am your Alina replacement, she didnt make any(zero) posts that I disagree with, so no Amish tell here.
However in the same way that Meta (see post ) you are self aware of, and is modifiable, is thus usually completely null, then no Amish tell is null for me too. (@Muffin: have two cookies, @Iza: also I am also disappoint)

Spoiler: More fluff
I have a wiki page and One completed game and although its newbie ought give you peek under the hood.


RBS over (random bullshit phase)


In post 392, Scripten wrote:
In post 368, Izariael wrote:
Top scumread would be Scripten. I'm irked by everything in his ISO. Non-committal, flimsy reads and a lackadaisical vote on top wagon are raising my hackles.

VOTE: Scripten


This looks like a vote for town cred rather than a vote based on actual scumhunting.

It's fairly early into D1, and you want solid reads on people? In a large?

Also, Cho was tied with TSO at
three
votes. I think I can deal with the guilt of putting someone at L-8 or so.


@Scripten

Please explain how you think that would get "town cred" and is not actual scum hunting.
(I fail to see your point of view) (I fail to see how you can hold your point of view.) (It feels made up.) Show me your perspective.



Also while I usually try not to tread in other peoples puddles, I am not fully up to speed, so pardon any size 12's.


Axle-
Welcome!

Axle-
Muffin is done debating semantics (). But maybe you'll get an answer where I drew only criticism. Good luck with that!


Didn't ask Muffin.
Don't expect an answer from him.

Surprised I got one from you.
Writing it off as a welcome party. (good social graces)
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Post Post #578 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:00 pm

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 556, Muffin wrote:
In post 553, PeregrineV wrote:
Explain how my logic is superficially plausible, but actually wrong.
Because if you actually go into depth, any rational player would realize that your argument falls on its ass if your definition of "town cred" is different from his. I'm done debating semantics with you on this point. Your logic is faulty and you know it.

My vote is staying there because why not?
Yes, you need a safe place to park it so you can pretend to be scumhunting. I understand.


Axle will be taking up the first argument.
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I guess we have different definitions of "safe", "park", "pretend", "scumhunting" and "understand".

And since he's only a null read, please inform us when he is full on town in your reads.
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Post Post #579 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:04 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 567, Thor665 wrote:
In post 566, Muffin wrote:
In post 558, Thor665 wrote:
I'm going to vote you on the basis you're claiming scum.


Do it, then.

I am voting him.
You should do it too and be more useful.

My bad I thought you were still voting TSO.

I voted PerV like 8 pages ago.
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Post Post #580 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:05 pm

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 577, AxleGreaser wrote:Didn't ask Muffin.
Don't expect an answer from him.

Surprised I got one from you.
Writing it off as a welcome party. (good social graces)

I made the same argument already, with the end response as shown.
In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:17. Scripten- early scumvibes. Some wording makes me wonder.392- A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum. Stuff like that keeps me from calling you town.

In post 556, Muffin wrote:
In post 553, PeregrineV wrote:
Explain how my logic is superficially plausible, but actually wrong.
Because if you actually go into depth, any rational player would realize that your argument falls on its ass if your definition of "town cred" is different from his. I'm done debating semantics with you on this point. Your logic is faulty and you know it.

My vote is staying there because why not?
Yes, you need a safe place to park it so you can pretend to be scumhunting. I understand.


Makes sense that if you make the same argument I did, you'll get your shore 'o the Muffin wrath.
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Post Post #581 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:12 pm

Post by Muffin »

i mean it's pretty obvious that if scripten meant "trying to look town by doing lazy scumhunting" rather than "he's bussing me and we're scumbros" then everything is copacetic

i disagree with that description of Iz's post; but that doesn't mean i need to scumread scripten for it. the "leading" cho wagon wasn't much of a wagon at all so attacking someone for being like the 4th person onto a wagon in a 21p large is pretty meh.

the problem with the meta on this site is that a lot of people are too fucking rigid, god damn open your minds, not all scum or town play will fit into your pre-existing mental schema
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Post Post #582 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:14 pm

Post by Muffin »

scripten's a big boy, he doesn't need me to defend him despite your burning desire to argue with me about scripten's motives

ask him yourself, perv
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Post Post #583 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:18 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 570, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 557, Thor665 wrote:Please provide me a link to all the 21+ player games you have been in recently that were not multiball.
I presume it's a majority?


Let's find out together. Me being in them doesn't seem to have much bearing, so let's just look.

NY169 : 20 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY173: 18 players, 4 mafia + SK
NY172: 20 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY171: 21 players, 5 mafia (in this)
NY170: 19 players, 3 mafia
NY167: 17 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY166: 18 players, 4 mafia + SK (in this)
NY165: 24 players, 5 mafia + SK (ran this)

NY164: 24 players, 3 mafia + 4 mafia (in this)

NY161: 21 players, 5 mafia (in this)
NY143: 21 players, 3 mafia + 3 mafia (in this) (2011)

NY137: 21 players, 4 mafia + SK

NY134: 22 players, 5 mafia

It seems 3 years and 35 Large Normal games ago, there was a 21 player game with 2 scumteams.
So, yes, a large majority were not.

Adjusted that for how it was used in the discussion.
Adding in the other SK ones changes it to a 6/13 ratio.
Meaning, roughly, 50%

So...yeah, I think that is a safe assumption to have in your head Day 1.
Also, you called me scum for bringing up multiball...in relation to a discussion where someone brought up multiball...so, yes, I do think that's weird on your part.

And, really, "changing your reason upon consideration of new information is scummy"
Pull the other one, it has bells on.

I don't have a lot of sheep yet.
Why are people scared of this - he is declaring scum.
If you don't think he is then you should probably explain why you don't find the commentary scummy. Because I find it five alarm chilli level.
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Post Post #584 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:18 pm

Post by Thor665 »

Oh, or 4/7 if we only count games with 21+
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Post Post #585 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:19 pm

Post by Thor665 »

Still basically 50%, but...yeah.
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Post Post #586 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:22 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 575, AxleGreaser wrote:If that game was balanced with this player base (scum won) could you link me to 21P multiball game you thought was balanced?
Ive never played in a multi. So prefrably also a multi that wont hurt if I read it.

Your question is pointless because even Pere, in arguing against the idea, managed to provide multiple examples.
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Post Post #587 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:27 pm

Post by Scripten »

In post 568, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 392, Scripten wrote:
In post 368, Izariael wrote:
Top scumread would be Scripten. I'm irked by everything in his ISO. Non-committal, flimsy reads and a lackadaisical vote on top wagon are raising my hackles.

VOTE: Scripten


This looks like a vote for town cred rather than a vote based on actual scumhunting.

It's fairly early into D1, and you want solid reads on people? In a large?

Also, Cho was tied with TSO at
three
votes. I think I can deal with the guilt of putting someone at L-8 or so.


@Scripten

Please explain how you think that would get "town cred" and is not actual scum hunting.
(I fail to see your point of view) (I fail to see how you can hold your point of view.) (It feels made up.) Show me your perspective.


My explanation is literally right there in the quote. Everything about Izar's vote was based on pedantic "You use words that I'm going to construe as scummy because I said they are" logic and hyperbole. The top two wagons were on my top scumread and a town read. I don't (didn't) have a strong enough read on any other player to warrant starting another wagon.

In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:17. Scripten- early scumvibes. Some wording makes me wonder.392- A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum. Stuff like that keeps me from calling you town.


Uh huh... Because nobody makes votes just to gain good favor with the rest of the town, right? Izar hadn't finished reading the thread, and when you sheeped them, they even seemed surprised/possibly nervous. That said, you are looking WAY scummier than they are right now.

So ready to vote PereV. (Btw uhm... muffin, your nickname for him MIGHT not be apropro. :P ) His (intentional(?)) misinterpretations and the fact that he's ready to vote Thor for discussing multiball are huge red flags. Does nobody else follow why the latter is so scummy?
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Post Post #588 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:34 pm

Post by Cho »

I'm fairly sure this game is multiball, considering the moderator's own posts in Mafia Discussion that were highly enthusiastic toward multiball.

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Post Post #589 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:36 pm

Post by Thor665 »

That also doesn't matter. I don't even wish to get into a 'is or isn't this multiball' discussion and never did - it's not germane to any issue on the table.

If you have an opinion about Pere calling me scummy for mentioning multiball or how I'm calling him scum for doing so - that would be excellent discussion to have.
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Post Post #590 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:40 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 126, Goofyd00d wrote:Considering 4 is the meta for almost garunteed, I would say 5 people in a hood contains a scum, and maybe even multi factions.

Here's another mention of multiball that didn't bother Pere.
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Post Post #591 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:47 pm

Post by Cho »

Sure.

Whenever someone is called scummy for bringing up multiball, I generally disagree. The main exception is in situations further on or late-game where a "what if it's multiball" comment can throw town's plans for a loop, or when it seems to be designed to instill (usually role-related) paranoia.

I disagree with PeregrineV, or anyone really, saying that multiball discussion is scummy at this point in time. I used to think those who called bringing up multiball scummy were scum themselves, but lately it seems that there's a large portion of the userbase that whether town or scum seems intent on continuing to push "scumtells" that are either outdated or never existed globally in the first place.

In this case, while I have a slight bias against PeregrineV since I felt we were receiving different treatments while we both weren't caught up, I don't think it has much bearing on PeregrineV's alignment. (I do see him as one of the players who sticks to using certain scumtell-catches that I disagree with.) I would feel validated if he were scum. But I don't feel ready to make any sort of judgment on him yet, and part of the reason why is because I'm still in a state of perpetual catch-up. So many pages yet to read, and every single time I log on, I just want to "restart" from the latest page I see.

Do you understand this, or rather, follow my train of thought?

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Post Post #592 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:50 pm

Post by Cho »

In post 588, Cho wrote:I'm fairly sure this game is multiball, considering the moderator's own posts in Mafia Discussion that were highly enthusiastic toward multiball.


Disregard this post. Wrong moderator.

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Post Post #593 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:52 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 587, Scripten wrote:So ready to vote PereV

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Post Post #594 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:01 pm

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 582, Muffin wrote:scripten's a big boy, he doesn't need me to defend him despite your burning desire to argue with me about scripten's motives

ask him yourself, perv


Yet you are defending him.

The question is out there from both me and Axle. We'll see what he says.
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Post Post #595 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:01 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 587, Scripten wrote:
In post 568, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 392, Scripten wrote:
In post 368, Izariael wrote:
Top scumread would be Scripten. I'm irked by everything in his ISO. Non-committal, flimsy reads and a lackadaisical vote on top wagon are raising my hackles.

VOTE: Scripten


This looks like a vote for town cred rather than a vote based on actual scumhunting.

It's fairly early into D1, and you want solid reads on people? In a large?

Also, Cho was tied with TSO at
three
votes. I think I can deal with the guilt of putting someone at L-8 or so.


@Scripten

Please explain how you think that would get "town cred" and is not actual scum hunting.
(I fail to see your point of view) (I fail to see how you can hold your point of view.) (It feels made up.) Show me your perspective.


My explanation is literally right there in the quote.
Everything about Izar's vote was based on pedantic "You use words that I'm going to construe as scummy because I said they are" logic and hyperbole.
1 The top two wagons were on my top scumread and a town read. I don't (didn't) have a strong enough read on any other player to warrant starting another wagon.

In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:17. Scripten- early scumvibes. Some wording makes me wonder.392- A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum. Stuff like that keeps me from calling you town.


Uh huh... Because nobody makes votes just to gain good favor with the rest of the town, right?
Izar hadn't finished reading the thread, and when you sheeped them, they even seemed surprised/possibly nervous.
2 That said, you are looking WAY scummier than they are right now.

So ready to vote PereV. (Btw uhm... muffin, your nickname for him MIGHT not be apropro. :P ) His (intentional(?)) misinterpretations and the fact that he's ready to vote Thor for discussing multiball are huge red flags. Does nobody else follow why the latter is so scummy?


Few things:

1)
My vote wasn't based at all on your WORDING of your reads.
Both you and Thor seem to think that I gave a shit about how you worded it. I didn't. What irked me about your reads is that they were the most bare bones reads ever. There was NOTHING of interest there that offered a glimpse of what is making your gears turn. Anyone can say "oh, they feel like scum. I think they're town. They seem town." I don't care about that. I want to know WHY you think that. What about their behavior has driven you to those conclusions? I've already clarified this and offered you an opportunity to explain your reads, and you still haven't done so, which I continue to find scummy. ,

Would you care to elaborate now? Your answers won't be alignment-indicative, but they will at least establish a ground zero for your reads. Then I can catch you lying later like the scum you are. Thanks.

2) [begin segue]I was caught up on reading in the thread, but several of the posts I would have made if I'd been there at the time had become obsolete based on new information (e.g. Csareo replacement), so I wound up filtering or p-editing some of the things I was planning to say. My read on goodmorning is actually a good example of that . I had listed her as top townread for the first several pages, because I liked the thought process she was demonstrating, especially regarding Cho's neighbourhood reveal. But then as I caught up fully, I saw a few posts that raised some red flags. She still wound up being among top townreads, but perhaps a bit more even-keel. The wording in 368 kind of shows that it fell victim to p-edit, since I didn't really clarify why she was top townread initially.[end segue]

PeregrineV's sheep on my vote was unexpected and unusual, but it's kind of the only red flag I've seen from him. PeregrineV's play here seems consistent with what I've seen from Town!Peregrine, so I don't really have a scum read on his slot at this time. I think Peregrine has a tendency to appear pretty scummy as town, so my past experience with him has me trying to look past my initial misgivings of his play and look for alternative motivations that could come from town. I'm still undecided on how I feel about him, but it's definitely not a "he must be scum" feeling.

In post 565, Scripten wrote:
In post 559, Thor665 wrote:@Everyone - Pere claimed scum. I caught him. You may sheep me now.


Heh. I like this. Not yet ready to sheep Thor, but this is a good post.


And this is a terrible post. :neutral: If I say "@Everyone - Scripten claimed scum. I caught him. You may sheep me now." will you think this is a good post too?
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Post Post #596 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:04 pm

Post by Cho »

I should have said this earlier, but the multiball commentary is completely unnecessary for Day 1 scumhunting. It's even mostly unnecessary later on.

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Post Post #597 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:06 pm

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 583, Thor665 wrote:
In post 570, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 557, Thor665 wrote:Please provide me a link to all the 21+ player games you have been in recently that were not multiball.
I presume it's a majority?


Let's find out together. Me being in them doesn't seem to have much bearing, so let's just look.

NY169 : 20 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY173: 18 players, 4 mafia + SK
NY172: 20 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY171: 21 players, 5 mafia (in this)
NY170: 19 players, 3 mafia
NY167: 17 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY166: 18 players, 4 mafia + SK (in this)
NY165: 24 players, 5 mafia + SK (ran this)

NY164: 24 players, 3 mafia + 4 mafia (in this)

NY161: 21 players, 5 mafia (in this)
NY143: 21 players, 3 mafia + 3 mafia (in this) (2011)

NY137: 21 players, 4 mafia + SK

NY134: 22 players, 5 mafia

It seems 3 years and 35 Large Normal games ago, there was a 21 player game with 2 scumteams.
So, yes, a large majority were not.

Adjusted that for how it was used in the discussion.
Adding in the other SK ones changes it to a 6/13 ratio.
Meaning, roughly, 50%

So...yeah, I think that is a safe assumption to have in your head Day 1.
Also, you called me scum for bringing up multiball...in relation to a discussion where someone brought up multiball...so, yes, I do think that's weird on your part.

And, really, "changing your reason upon consideration of new information is scummy"
Pull the other one, it has bells on.

I don't have a lot of sheep yet.
Why are people scared of this - he is declaring scum.
If you don't think he is then you should probably explain why you don't find the commentary scummy. Because I find it five alarm chilli level.

Except Multiball means 2 scumteams, as per the definition: "Serial Killers and other one-person groups do not count; the term is specific to scum groups of multiple players."
So, your attempt to use SKs to discredit me is pretty blatant.
Your attempt to use 24 player games as examples is also blatant. I included them for reference, but 24 is not 21, and the setup and balance for each is different.
So, try 25%. And recently, none of them.
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Post Post #598 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:08 pm

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 584, Thor665 wrote:Oh, or 4/7 if we only count games with 21+


Except you didn't say 21+. If you had, we wouldn't be discussing this.
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Post Post #599 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:09 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 594, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 582, Muffin wrote:scripten's a big boy, he doesn't need me to defend him despite your burning desire to argue with me about scripten's motives

ask him yourself, perv


Yet you are defending him.

The question is out there from both me and Axle. We'll see what he says.

i know, i need to stop arguing with my scumreads
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