Open 570: Making Friends and Enemies (Mafia Wins!)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

/confirm

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: good morning

Coz IC. Oh wait, I can't use that...

Umm, yeah...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Metal Sonic

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hmmmmmm Sonic might be Scum.

Vote:Goodmorning

Why?

Also, is this a serious vote?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Scum have partner

s

, not partner!

Did you fail English grammar class or are you scum?

Must Uncle Sonic teach you the difference between singular and plural nouns now?

VOTE: Zebulin

You're voting him for bad grammar?

I think it's okay^

Seems like RVS to me.

Why are you soft-defending NPAU?

Some people point their gun before asking questions. Others ask their questions before pointing their gun.

That's an interesting observation though, and it is noted for future consideration.

Same question as above.

James May left
UNVOTE:
VOTE: nyanyanya because your name is hard to type.

Random Voting Stage is best stage!

Why are you trying to continue the RVS stage with a second RVS vote when we are starting to get content that can move the game forward?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, so yeah.

I found scum.

Sheep me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You should vote in a separate post so that the mod doesn't miss it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also, Huntress and Shinobi...why aren't you sheeping me?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You shouldn't assume I have town-reads on you both, because I don't. You two are the only one's who have posted since we found our first scum.

Don't defend him with meta either. That's awful.

Now, sheep me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Bluebloodedtoffee, aren't you going to answer my questions? You should set a precedent for question-answering, otherwise people wouldn't want to answer your questions anymore for being a hypocrite

You should also set a precedent for answering questions. Given that you completely ignored my questions in 55.

You don't want people to think you're a hypocrite now, do you?

It's not a meta defense.

The thing you need to understand is that lynching someone because you don't like their playstyle is lynching someone for poor reasoning. Being weird doesn't make him scum. If we actually try to lynch him at this point in the game, it's nothing more than a policy lynch.

If you have an actual case on MS, I'd be more inclined to vote with you; otherwise, I'm not going to vote him.

You just said 'It's MS, that's just how he is'. That looks like a meta defence for his play so far, am I mistaken?

I didn't like his entry post. I didn't like him speaking about his 'partner', simultaneously claiming VT and Mason. I don't like his vote-hopping either. That's more than enough reason for me to vote him at this point in the game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I feel like the term "defense" is being stretched particularly thin. I never really defended MS at that point in time; I stated that lynching him for being weird isn't a valid reason. And it isn't.

I didn't really feel like his entry post, in regards to his claiming both vanilla town and mason, is particularly damning evidence. What if he actually is a mason? Are you going to run him up just to find out? There are only two roles to claim in this setup, so claiming both of them at once while not at L-1 doesn't look particularly damning. Vote hopping is the only valid piece of evidence that I can see against him at this point, but I simply don't feel like this is a strong enough case to warrant my vote. If his nonsense continues or better evidence comes up, I'll consider voting him.

I would, however, love to hear more than three people talking about this.

I would say you soft-defended him. It was nowhere near as blatant as MS' soft-defend of NPAU (nopointactingup) but it was there.

I'd like to run him up and find out, yeah. A Mason just wouldn't make a post like that, either he is a bad VT or he's scum, and I think the latter fits better with his play so far.

I would also like to hear from some more people. It would be excellent if they could read the thread and then sheep me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I fail to see how "soft-defending" anyone is relevant information. Are you implying that NPAU is his scumbuddy? How does that make him scum in this circumstance? Why don't you think a mason would make that post?

It's not a whole lot to go on right now, but it can be very useful later in the game when there will have been flips/NK's.

I may be implying that NPAU could be his scum-buddy. Of course, he could be a Mason soft-defending his partner, but as I previously stated, I have already ruled this possibility out. Why do

you

think he took it upon himself to answer a question that was directed at somebody else?

I just don't think a Mason would essentially make a soft-claim like that in an entry post. It seems a little dangerous.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I just don't see the mason angle and I'd prefer to leave it at that. It should be obvious that talking about possible masons is bad, and this conversation could be used by scum for narrowing down possible mason suspects.

I agree. Could you answer my question though?

Why do

you

think he took it upon himself to answer a question that was directed at somebody else?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't know. Maybe you should ask him instead of jumping to the conclusion that he's scum for answering someone else's question.

I have. He chose not to respond.

That's not the only reason I'm scum-reading him either.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Interesting. Remind me again why you have such a hate on meta?
So far I haven't liked your posting at all. For little things: call out people for soft defening, but in my eyes that exactly what you are doing.

Because meta is easily manipulated and it's a poor scum-hunting tool.

Who have I soft-defended?

You're also unbelievable bad at reading me.

I'm aware, but that isn't the issue.

Without having his flip in front of you, that post could have come from town!MS or scum!MS, and you have no way of knowing otherwise. NPAU is actually guilty of doing this "soft-defending" as well, but you haven't seemed to have called him on it at all. What gives?

Correct, which is why I said it isn't anything hugely significant right now, but it could be useful later on in the game.

Are you sure I didn't pick up on the soft-defending from NPAU?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You didn't say anything up until now, so I would assume that you didn't. Unless you find it advantageous to hide information from the town.

What's your read on NPAU?

When the time is right I'll reveal all. I'm null on NPAU right now given he has done nothing.

You soft defended Zeb in my mind.

How have I soft-defended Zeb?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yes, but it's not always going to stay like that. It's not random for me anymore, but that's my view. I feel like there's enough non fluff content to get out of RVS stage.

@BBT: when you questioned ms' vote on Zeb

Nah, I was trying to understand the reason behind MS' vote because I couldn't see one.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

This is a flimsy argument on Day1, since it depends not only on MS being scum first (which is highly unlikely), but also that scum actually defends their partners at all (which is 50-50 at best).

We've only got 5 pages. Are you expected a rock-solid case by now? Please.

Why is it highly unlikely that MS is scum?

You both soft-defended each other. It's quite plausible that you're both scum.

You couldn't find any reason in MS's post, which means you couldn't find anything scummy in MS's posts, yet you're already linking him to supposed scum-buddy?

This doesn't really make sense to me but I'll try to respond anyway.

I couldn't find the reason for why MS voted Zeb. Therefore, I asked (tongue-in-cheek) if he was voting him for his bad grammar as that was the only *reason* I could see. I have seen plenty of scummy behaviour from MS so far, and have stated such things in 72.

I'll state this part again to avoid any confusion. I do not think MS is scum

solely based on his soft-defend

of you. I also

do not think

that would be a valid reason on it's own to lynch somebody.

BUT

, it can become useful later in the game due to flips/NK's. Capiche?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Meta is a good tool if used wisely. Don't blame the tool for the way it's sometimes misused.

I don't really want to get into this in the middle of a game, would prefer to talk about it post-game, but if somebody is aware of their meta or how certain people interpret meta, it can be manipulated quite easily.

@ BBT:

I asked you what you didn't like about MS's vote-hopping. Still waiting for an answer.

You like vote-hopping?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Haven't you heard? A vote is the town's best weapon!

A vote is a good weapon; however, when it only sticks on someone for a page or so, it pretty much becomes useless. Your vote serves no purpose as you're expected to move it onto the next target within the next 25 posts.

GM - Where you at? What you thinking? Let's talk.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hey Josh,

You town?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't want to be pointing my weapon and accidentally killing someone who is town.

One vote can't kill someone.

You can also just unvote. It doesn't have to transfer to somebody else.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Toffee pressures Metal Sonic

Metal Sonic tells Toffee to leave him alone


I don't like this at all. Town should be fine with scumhunting, even if it's on them (since they can say all their thoughts; as town, they have nothing to hide). Also, the uncle sonic thing bugs me.

Will post more when I have time

This is an overreaction. I don't like this post.

Right now I think MS is town. The VT gambit is semi rolefishing but further play says maybe not. Trying to get a rise out of the Mason? most likely. Gonna draw out scum? Probably.

You think town semi-role fish?

How do you think it draws out scum?

Vote hopping is a null tell. What was there about MS's vote changes that you found scummy?

This is an empty question. I'm done on this topic. I didn't like his vote hopping. I didn't like his OMGUS on me. I don't like that his votes barely stick on the same person for more than a page. It renders his vote useless, of course, that would only matter if he was town.

Would you describe your own vote change, after only 15 posts, as useless? I doubt it, so why object to his purely on postcount?

Are you seriously comparing me changing from my

RVS vote to a serious vote

, to MS' vote-hopping. Please, tell me you're not doing that.

BBT, I'm not understanding your vote on the soft defense. Seems more like MS was giving a POV than trying to defend someone. What would be the point of tying himself to his scum partner so quickly?

Why would MS feel the need to answer a question directed at someone else? It would obviously be a mistake from scum that they would hope no-one would pick up on. I doubt MS made the post thinking he would get linked to NPAU.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also, GM can you actually do something please.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Right now I think MS is town. The VT gambit is semi rolefishing but further play says maybe not. Trying to get a rise out of the Mason? most likely. Gonna draw out scum? Probably.

Also, I forgot to add. Why would town try to get a rise out of a Mason?

Yeah ms has been pinging for a while.

And what have you done to develop this read? Other than telling MS to stop doing the things you're finding scummy.

On the other hand, I'm really not feeling Town Huntress.

Why would that be?

Yuck. Asking why someone isn't town-reading you. Bad post.

This post in particular was one of the worst catchup posts that I would only expect from bad VIs (user VDA) or just textbook scum.

It does not provide any substantiation comments on the game state, does not give any reads, does not mention if anybody is town, and are just lackadaisical comments that provide absolutely no contribution or any form of curiosity of scum hunting nature that would be expected from a townie.

I called you out for lurking, so you read the previous pages and made a few swift comments to appease te town and super quote blocks to make your post seem long. Like, it takes only 10 minutes max to read 2 pages of content, and for the past few days you checked the thread only to prod dodge. When an expected analysis of the previous two pages was to be analyses, you gave no analysis whatsoever. No reads, no scumhunting, nothing.

I actually agree with most of this.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You think town semi-role fish?

I never semi role-fished. All I said was that I am a Vanilla Townie over and over. I told the masons to stay quiet. If anyone is going to get rolefished, it's the scum.

You realize it was Josh that said that in his opening post right? Can you let him answer it please.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UNVOTE:

Mod: Can we have a VC please?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You see, that answers this question too.

Anyway, you were making a post concerning me, so now I have even more reason to butt in and answer a question directed to someone else.

That's apt. You answered another question that wasn't aimed at you so you could follow up with that defence.

It may have been talking

about

you, but it wasn't

to

you. I would prefer it if you could leave people to answer the questions that are directed at them and not you.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Sure, fine, I won't interrupt.

Both you and me are active now, though,

I know you are town.

You know I am town.

Let's have some constructive discussion

I don't know you're town.

But sure. What do you want to discuss?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm not going through her posts.

What I will say is that she hasn't done much. She is null right now for me because I don't see anything that's particularly townie or particularly scummy from her so far.

PEdit - I think I'm leaning scum on Huntress. Shinobi is null right now, again, he really hasn't done much.

What do you think about Josh and NPAU?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

How are you town-reading Shinobi?

PEdit - what has she done that is scummy?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't have any good answers besides "He looks town". He did mention that he "burned" me in another game, that was half-true. I was townreading him for quite awhile until the later part of the game where he became obvscum. It might be happening now, and I have no way to find out.



Look at how defensive she is. And I wrote a pretty big case against her for a game with less than ten pages. You read that, didn't you?

Hmm, maybe you shouldn't town-read people so quickly. Shinobi really hasn't done much. I feel like you're town-reading people to appease.

Defensiveness does not equal scum. I did read your case and I agreed with it. I just don't agree with the conclusion that she is scum because of it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Maybe. The content in this game is very little and it's affecting my results, I'm working with what I have. In a larger game, it would be very obvious to me who is town and not. I'm playing Uncle Sonic to appease, by the way, so you're not totally wrong.

Defensiveness does equal scum. Active lurking also equals scum. Not contributing to the town despite being here =

refusing

to contribute = scum. What else? Right. Having bad reactions when one is being put at L-3 at page 7 probably adds quite a few scumpoints too.

I agree that we have too many people not contributing.

I am a defensive player. So many people misinterpret this as scummy. It's not always the case. Active lurking I agree is scummy, which is why I have asked GM to actually do something.

You don't think someone has the right to react badly if they are put to L-3 after 7 pages when half the votes on them are RVS votes?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why haven't you responded to the questions I asked you?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

But you're here and posting now...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

GM you think MS is scum because he presented a bad case on you?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No. I think he's Scum because
1. He hasn't displayed any interest in the actual content of anyone's posts, preferring instead to substitute his own narrative over the actual words people are actually saying.
2. His attempts to control the game are incredibly manipulative (as are some of his posts).
3. His butting in at various times is annoying at best (implies scummy at worst).
4. He's failed to answer my questions to him or discuss my rebuttals of his case. Which then links back to 1 and the whole fucking cycle starts again.

And that's not even getting into whether he was or wasn't rolefishing, or anything he might have posted on 3-4.

He has a habit of dodging questions. OK, let's do this then.

VOTE: MS

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT, why are you talking to GM like she's town in 219 when obviously you had some reservations about her after reading 183?

The answer to your question is on this very page;

I did read your case and I agreed with it. I just don't agree with the conclusion that she is scum because of it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What about the case did you agree with?

If you agree with every point and disagree with the conclusion, as you as implying, there is a reason you decided A doesn't equal B.

Can you explain why A (MS's case on GM) doesn't mean B (GM is scum)?

It does not provide any substantiation comments on the game state, does not give any reads, does not mention if anybody is town, and are just lackadaisical comments that provide absolutely no contribution or any form of curiosity of scum hunting nature that would be expected from a townie.

I called you out for lurking, so you read the previous pages and made a few swift comments to appease te town and super quote blocks to make your post seem long. Like, it takes only 10 minutes max to read 2 pages of content, and for the past few days you checked the thread only to prod dodge. When an expected analysis of the previous two pages was to be analyses, you gave no analysis whatsoever. No reads, no scumhunting, nothing.

I agreed that GM hadn't provided anything substantive. I also agreed that she hadn't provided much in the way of reads, this ties into the first comment anyway. I agreed that much of her posting was fluff and pretty much useless to determine her alignment. I also agreed with the lack of scum-hunting.

I don't think this makes GM scum though. She just hadn't got into the game yet. It's as simple as that. Had she continued in that vein of behaviour, sure, I would have began scum-reading her.

I guess it just comes down to personal interpretation.

Spoiler: Response to NPAU

Because there's no scum motivation in doing something like that. It is clear that he wrote the "partner" intentionally for some kinda gambit. But since there's no reason for scum to do that at all, chances are he's town unless he's incredibly manipulative. Even then, he would face controversy surrounding his post, so I'm more inclined that it's a anti-town, but town move.

So you're saying that scum cannot be incredibly manipulative?

Define soft defend. Why would scum more likely to soft defend each other and not just outright defend or outright distance each other?

Outright defending is too easy to link when one of you has been lynched. Outright distancing is also pretty easy to spot. Soft-defending is usually something scum do without realizing it, it's a mistake.

There you are stating my point. You are not entirely sure about MS-scum, yet you're linking him to buddies. It sounded much like feign tunneling to me. Furthermore I don't agree with your other reasoning, town are not afraid of pressure so are more likely to gambit and vote hop. Scums normally just wants to lay low and cruise through.

Of course I'm not entirely sure MS is scum, how could I be? What a strange thing to say.

I'm not saying any more about the associations. I have been as clear as I can be on that issue.

On another note, BBT is looking more contributive so I'll give him more leeway.
GM's OMGUS on MS is just bad. I'm willing to lynch her but I'd rather gain more in the day.

Unvote.Vote:Huntress

Wait, what? So all your talk is directed at me and GM, and then you vote Huntress.

Why?

This is exactly the BBT inconsistency I'm getting at.

What inconsistency would that be?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

He has a habit of dodging questions. OK, let's do this then.

What is this supposed to mean?

It means MS dodged my questioning way back on p5 or whenever it was.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Post 55 for reference GM.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You're welcome.

BBT, I didn't expect you to be silent about my case on you.

That's probably because;

a) I don't feel you have much of a case

b) there is nothing in your case that needs responding to that I haven't already addressed in the thread before.

Yes.
Scum love WIFOM. It's like mafia crack. It's great for town... if you know how to read it, and it's responses. I'll make a town case of MS, wait for it.

This isn't very clear to me. Are you saying town semi-role fish? I don't understand why town would try to out the Masons.

How does MS' opening post specifically relate to drawing out scum? How does that work?

It isn't a scum tell. That's just people being actively involved in the conversation.
Me either. Do you think we should Lynch NPAU to see if MS is trying to WK off of a lynch? Or do you think we should lynch MS so we get a clear off of NPAU? I don't and neither of these two scenarios make sense. Maybe we can follow trails that actually lead to finding scum and not randomness. If I answer a question or but my nose into a conversation that just means I want to participate in the thread, judge my comments for their content.

Umm, you regularly address questions that are not directed at you then? It kind of defeats the object of questioning someone if someone else answers first and provides an answer for the person who the question was directed at.

There are more things to judge than simply the content of a post.

I'm not liking NPAU right now. I think he is my #1 lynch for today.

Spoiler: NPAU Quotes

@BBT:

[quote="In post 228

Because there's no scum motivation in doing something like that. It is clear that he wrote the "partner" intentionally for some kinda gambit. But since there's no reason for scum to do that at all, chances are he's town unless he's incredibly manipulative. Even then, he would face controversy surrounding his post, so I'm more inclined that it's a anti-town, but town move.

So you're saying that scum cannot be incredibly manipulative?

-->

I'm more

inclined

that it's a anti-town, but town move.

Unvote.Vote:Huntress

Wait, what? So all your talk is directed at me and GM, and then you vote Huntress.

-->

but I'd rather gain more in the day.

Unvote.Vote:Huntress

This comes to a normative question of whether you think to always justify your vote

immediately

is a good town move. I don't think so.

This is exactly the BBT inconsistency I'm getting at.

What inconsistency would that be?

Look at my previous post plus Peabody's post

So, all-in-all your post was pretty wishy-washy then? Covering both sides of the argument. That's a good scum-tell.

I want

you

to point out my inconsistencies. Show me where I have been inconsistent.

Okay, let's move on from the fact that I think that question is dumb and I'll give you an answer even though I really don't want to:

Because ISOing players during day 1 isn't going to produce much in the way of findings, especially when you can just read the thread and glean the exact same information but with better context. Using an ISO this early is needless busywork and it's just generally better to ask questions and play the game. Even if you didn't want to talk much, reading the thread is still better because looking at a pure ISO doesn't give you the same quality of read because of a lack of context.

And that isn't even getting into the fact that nothing of importance has actually warranted an ISO dive, in my opinion.

So how does this answer make me readable in any way? How does this help you figure out my alignment?

Up until this post, your last few posts were anti-town at best and scummy at worst. Would you like to actually contribute to the game now?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also, yeah, that VC needs a makeover!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: NoPointActingUp

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hey Josh,

Do you see 266? I know you do. I know you see it.

Can you answer the questions directed at you please?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Oh jeez, is this a theory lesson or are you just antagonizing me because you know how? My offer to hydra is still on the table. How about calling our Hydra Prince Azure or Lord Gray? What do you think?

I don't think MS is trying to out the masons. Maybe that was unclear. I think he was trying to tell the masons to recruit him. Scum respond to that kind of stuff. It's like an ice cream truck to a six year old. Look at the immediate replies and tell me who you find the most suspicious. It's not solid evidence, but it's a good place to start with a FoS.

All of this is only true if we accept that MS was trying some sort of gambit. If he wasn't, then everything you're saying is irrelevant.

Trying to get a rise out of the Mason? most likely.

How does 'get a rise out of' translate into 'trying to get recruited'?

Also, I don't hydra atm. If I decide I want to try it, you'll be the first to know.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@ BBT:

I'm trying to work out whether you have a genuine reason to call MS's play scummy, or whether you just used his playstyle as an excuse to vote him. You haven't said that you have any problem with his individual votes apart from the one on you, so it looks like you just threw out a buzzword - vote hopping - and called him scummy for it.

I have specifically stated why I was scum-reading MS, I even quoted the post for you to read. I don't know how you're still talking about this.

That was exactly my point. You changed your vote when something more relevant came along, but you called MS scummy for doing the same thing. That is inconsistent.

No, it isn't inconsistent. I think you're accusing me of being a hypocrite, which is wrong either way. I changed my vote once and it was to place my first serious vote. MS changed his twice, both onto people who were suspicious of him or questioning him within the first 3-and-a-bit pages. There is a big difference. In fact, I don't even think MS' first vote on GM was RVS so he may have had 3 votes in just over 3 pages.

I accept it as a gambit.

Then this is where we differ.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wishy washy? Did you just take that up from

your ass

nowhere? I took into account the small possibility that I was wrong but still pretty damn insistent on MS town. Anyone who's reading can see that.

*Inconsistency. LOOK CLOSELY cuz I've already mentioned it. Actually I want everyone to look at this for future reference
post 55
post 56
post 58
post 64
post 65
post 68
post 76
3 things stand out here. He said he had found scum (meant MS). Ask others to sheep him

multiple times

AND link MS to supposed scumbuddy.
This must mean he has a pretty adamant scum read on MS right??

When asked about why he thought MS was scum. The only reply I could see are:
post 76 I didn't like what he did, which is not in any way related to "he's scum"
post 101 This is a crucial post. After being pressured about his read on MS. He said he

"couldn't see the reason behind MS's gambit post"

. That means he couldn't have found a scum reason for it either.
Which brings us to why he was so adamant about MS being scum early on? I cannot see BBT-town doing this. I can see BBT-scum doing this, but only as chainsaw defense for good morning, which is relatively weak as a tell.

If I don't like something it's usually because I don't see it coming from town. I've never been questioned on that before, strange that I have to explain it.

@Bold - is just plain wrong. I said I couldn't see the reason behind MS voting Zeb, not his entry post.

Finally an answer - but I think I disagree with you on the nature of the votes, they look quite understandable for early day votes to me, and in each case the votee posted before the vote was moved off them. Your "big difference" seems to be purely in the number of votes which I don't see as significant.

Nah, here's the main difference. 3 OMGUS votes over 3 pages. One on GM, one on Zeb and one on myself. I hope you can now see the difference I was trying to explain.

Spoiler: OMGUS Votes

Hmmmmmm Sonic might be Scum.

VOTE: goodmorning

I was pointing out that Metal Sonic claimed he was a vanilla townie while also saying he has a partner. This means he's lying about his role, which is very scummy. (Or it could be a typo, but if we assume every scummy action is a typo then we won't get anywhere)

The mason question was badly worded. What I mean to ask is "Metal Sonic, how could you claim you are a vanilla townie while also saying you have a partner in the

very same post?

" Scum has partners, you know.

Scum have partner

s

, not partner!

Did you fail English grammar class or are you scum?

Must Uncle Sonic teach you the difference between singular and plural nouns now?

VOTE: Zebulin

Scum have partner

s

, not partner!

Did you fail English grammar class or are you scum?

Must Uncle Sonic teach you the difference between singular and plural nouns now?

VOTE: Zebulin

You're voting him for bad grammar?

I think it's okay^

Seems like RVS to me.

Why are you soft-defending NPAU?

Some people point their gun before asking questions. Others ask their questions before pointing their gun.

That's an interesting observation though, and it is noted for future consideration.

Same question as above.

VOTE: bluebloodedtoffee

Huntress seems to be picking up on what I'm throwing down. I do not understand Zebulin's read on GM at all. At risk of repeating myself and her, the non inclusion of MS and NPAU(the loudest voices against GM) in his opinion are just as significant as his inclusion of an RVS Flaker, a fence sitter, and an I'm not even sure what he means by GM making points against herself.

Is this in relation to Zeb's reads-list?

@JoshB: What are your reads on the goodmorning/NPAU argument? (I meant to post this immidiately after post 319.)

Yea. There are some things that I care for on both sides, and some things that I don't care for. Nothing overly damning to me.

What an awful answer. Can you elaborate on this please? What do you care for? What don't you care for? How are you reading GM and NPAU right now?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Nicely dodged Mala! I almost forgot about this.

Yeah ms has been pinging for a while.

And what have you done to develop this read? Other than telling MS to stop doing the things you're finding scummy.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You are very narrow minded you know

I'm intrigued.

Elaborate?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Is this in relation to Zeb's reads-list?

Yes.

OK, can you explain this a little more then please because I have no idea what you're talking about.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@ BBT:

Re: 350. So what you're saying is that if A votes B and then B later votes A then it's a scum tell? Because it really isn't, unless B is saying A is scum purely because he voted B

Do you see any other reasons for MS' votes? If so, please show me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also Mala, can you stop fucking dodging my question to you in 183. This is the 3rd time I'm having to ask you.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Here you go;

Yeah ms has been pinging for a while.

And what have you done to develop this read? Other than telling MS to stop doing the things you're finding scummy.

Now, try again.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I really don't know know to read sonic. Majority of games sonic and I; I have been scum besides one where I I gored him throughout the game.

Also I wasn't telling him omg stop being scummy I was telling him to knock off things that were irritating. There's a diff

You must have an inkling on how to read him given you stated he had been 'pinging for a while'.

I'll ask again, why have you done nothing to try and develop this read? What was making him ping? My point is further emphasized if you don't know how to read him. This makes me think you should be making an

extra

effort to try and gain a read on him.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You said he was pinging.

What was making him ping?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Annoying you makes him scum?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think you thought his wagon may pick up and you wanted to make sure you had an excuse to jump on.

I have gave you numerous chances to give me a good answer and every one of your answers has been awful.

VOTE: Mala

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's got nothing to do with what's going on and you know it.

I asked you why he was pinging. You said 'he annoyed me'. That was it.

I also asked you why you had done nothing to try and develop this read. You continued to dodge this question.

I fail to see where meta comes into this?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So, you're just going to ignore MS all game because you don't know how to hunt him? You said he was pinging, something must have made this happen. 'He annoyed me' is simply an unacceptable answer.

Further to this, why have you not engaged him or put more effort into trying to learn how to read him?

You saw an opportunity for a wagon and gave yourself an excuse to jump on if it got started. It's as simple as that.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT:

I'm not sure if mala is the best lynch target for today. I've never played with her before, but this seems less like active lurking and more like gut play, IMO. You should come hop on one of the scummier wagons today. Those wagons are much more fun.

Do you feel that reading a player on how annoying they are is ineffective at figuring out alignment?

I disagree.

Can you find anything noteworthy that Mala has contributed on D1? She has actively lurked throughout, and despite knowing full well what actively lurking means, attempts to point to her consistency in the times that she posts as some sort of defence.

I don't think she has taken a strong stance this entire game yet.

Couple this with our previous interaction and I think Mala is a great choice for a D1 lynch.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Bbt why the hell are you doing the same attack you did in the newbie game. This isn't your first game with me. I rely on gut and meta for Day 1. This is the same bullshit attack you gave me on the newbie game and you were scum there. So either you are right now playing stupid scum game or you are playing a stupid town game. I can't tell which because it's not like it's just me and you in this game that played that, but also that Shin is here too.

I need to mull that over.

You do that. Use your great scum-hunting tool that is meta to determine my alignment. I look forward to this.

I was waiting for you to pull out the 'But I'm really bad at D1 card'. Good job.

I'm definitely taking your exchange with her differently. I find her read on MS to be fine for right now and her explanation satisfies me.

Wow, really?

So, I ask 'What about MS was pinging for you?'. She replies 'He was annoying me with all the Mason & VT bullshit'.

Then, I ask 'Why have you done noting to develop this read, especially given you struggle to read this player'. She says 'I don't know how to'.

Seriously Scripten? Those answers satisfy you?

Like, she hasn't questioned MS or tried to engage with him at all. Even though she was scum-reading him. That makes sense to you?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's why I asked you if examining how annoying a player is could be used to scumhunt. From my POV, Mala's currently reading MS as scum based on his distracting gameplay style, which I can understand.

No, she isn't scum-reading him from his gameplay style because she doesn't know how to read him. She specifically stated one issue of MS' play (the Mason and VT issue). She said nothing about his play-style.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah, NPAU and possibly GM. The more I re-read the worse she looks.

But I'd rather lynch Mala.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mala?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why the hell are you being so douchey-baggy. It's like its your mission to go ahead and discredit anything I said. I am likely not going to use meta to sort you, but I'm just saying that you are going into the same mindset that you did in the newbie, flat out. It still doesn't make sense from either alignment for you to do this. I'm trying to follow what you are thinking in your head and it's just not working.

P.S. I never said that. I'm just saying that I rely on gut for Day 1. I don't see how I said I'm really bad at Day 1 by saying I'm relying on gut/past meta-experience for reads. You are just trying to twist something to your adv and I don't like it.

Holy shit, how are you going to determine my alignment if not with meta?

I told you what I was thinking.

I questioned you. I was seriously dissatisfied with your answers. I voted you.

What part don't you follow?

Also, I hate it when one of my other scum-reads joins my wagon.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yes and I told you how I was feeling and you felt the need to discredit all of those things because you don't see it my way. Not to mention when one person says that he doesn't see it your way you felt the need to attack him too.

Yeah I always hate that too. (OMG we have something in common )

Looking at ms post everyone is quoting I think I see what you guys are seeing as scummy there.

It has nothing to do with you not seeing it my way. Your answers were simply not good enough.

@Bold - You're doing it again! Saying MS is scummy, giving yourself an opportunity to jump on his wagon without actually doing anything/contributing any original thoughts.

What do people mean when they keep saying 'beetle juiced'?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah ms has been pinging for a while.

This is the first time you scum-read MS, despite showing no previous inclination of this read even though he had apparently been 'pinging for a while', and you have yet to provide a valid explanation for this post to date.

Looking at ms post everyone is quoting I think I see what you guys are seeing as scummy there.

Here is the second time. So, you still think MS is scummy and you've still done

absolutely nothing

about it.

As I said, you're just lining yourself up to be able to jump on his wagon, should it take off. You have provided no original thoughts/content on MS despite scum-reading him from 160 (even earlier with relation to your comment). You just make generic comments and sheep other people's thoughts.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I wish I find it hilarious, but I dont. Although what I do find funny is that the chances of mislynching me on Day 1 is really low, very low and this usually just goes closer to lylo. So I'm always the topic of a lynch discussion, but it just doesn't happen.

First thing you have said that I agree with. The chances of mislynching you must be very low, I mean, you can't mislynch scum, right?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

While you're here, what are your current reads?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

While you're here, what are your current reads?

I have seen this question before, and it makes me nervous.

Don't be nervous. Engage.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I on the other hand do not know you, and would like to know when you're planning to leave the shadows. Surely you must have some kind of opinion, so what is it?

I've asked him this before.

And he put me in his anti-sheep list.

Still not contributing though.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm also looking at BBT and NPAU but I don't think they are scum together.

Is there a reason you don't think me and NPAU can be scum together?

Newb scums are obvious scums

Newb towns are vi

Alright. That's a fair enough point for the moment.

You're very compliant in this game Scripten. It's like you're trying not to ruffle any feathers.

I got my eye on you.

Also I forgot about marvel entirely and you were town there and so was I, but I replaced in and I think you were basically conf-town by then.

You couldn't use his town play from that game to help you determine his alignment in this game?

Mala, can I have a reads-list please. I don't think I've seen you give an opinion on someone that wasn't extremely wishy-washy and fence-sitty.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Newb scums are obvious scums

Newb towns are vi

Alright. That's a fair enough point for the moment.

You're very compliant in this game Scripten. It's like you're trying not to ruffle any feathers.

I got my eye on you.

You take one part of my post entirely out of context and make assumptions based on it. I'm not taking MS's defense of Zeb's play as a scumtell. Your statement comes across as you saying that I should be faking tells just to make cases on players I find scummy.

Your comment was a direct response to MS' answer to your question. How is that taken out of context?

You accepted that as an answer for why MS was town-reading Zeb and not scum-reading him. Even though you asked in your question

why

Zeb was newb-town and not newb-scum. I don't see how MS' response answers your question, but you accepted it.

This isn't the first time you have done this either. You did the same with Mala's response to my questioning.

It's OK, you don't need to get defensive. Yet.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

expect for the part where you ignored where I AM trying to use his play from another game that completed less than a month before that and before xmen. I already stated that his play was different from Knight, in which he was town there.

fucking hell read my posts before you start accusing me of not trying to sort him

Can you link where you said that please, I must have missed it.

I don't remember you making posts about looking into MS and then posting results from said investigation.

Also, you forgot about 474

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No, like I already said if I wanted to jump on his wagon I already could have, but I'm not because I'm not sold on the fact he's scum. Yes, he's playing similar to his scum meta, but also his playstyle reminds me of my own. Which I know being a chronic softclaimer is perceived as scummy.

Yet another wishy-washy read.

Also, I'm not sheeping other people's thoughts.

Fantastic, why do you think MS is scum?

Can I have a reads-list now please.

PEdit - @Mala - Oh right, so when you were using the excuse of 'I don't know how to hunt MS, you were in fact, hunting MS?

@Scripten - That was my interpretation of your post. I'm allowed to give my opinions, right? Just because you disagree with what I was saying, it does not mean I have taken it out of context. Those are different things.

Your second point has exactly 0 relation to what I actually said to you. How did you accept MS' answer for how he was town-reading Zeb when it told you nothing?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Do you see any other reasons for MS' votes? If so, please show me.

Post 44 implies that his first vote on GM was just RVS. 42 seemed to be sparring with Zeb. MS doesn't accuse him of being scum. And in 56 and 57 he was making a point to you. None of those votes seem to me to have the connotation you are giving them.

I'm sorry. So, because MS implied it was RVS, it must be right? No, MS can mislead and outright lie if he so pleases. Just because he said something, it doesn't make it so.

GM said Sonic could be scum. MS votes GM.

Zeb shows suspicion of MS. MS votes Zeb.

I question/pressure MS. MS votes me.

Do you disagree with any of this because it's all quite blatantly OMGUS.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No, not really. I just don't have a definitive answer to your question whether or not I believe Ms to be town or scum one way or another.

May I ask why you care to not take past experiences and apply them to current situations? I feel like we are going down the same rabbit hole we went down months ago, but you aren't stopping from doing it. You are probably going to go into the same tunnel like you just have an agenda to accuse my play of being crap because obv they conflict with each others.

I can't do a readslist right now. I am working and currently on my break from Shift 1 and have to go back to Shift 2. I might be home right now talking to you, but I needed to make sure I didn't burn the house down while cooking lunch, also i want to cut my apple. I'll be back in about 4 hours and try to get something solid before Chicago Fire. (yep my shows take priority over mafia)

Yeah, I was looking at past games, but not engaging him. Again if you read my posts you will see I don't know how to engage him because my default way as scum is to just ignore him half the time.

I look forward to your reads-list.

I don't use past experiences because they're useless. You have stated on more than one occasion so far that I am playing like I played in our first game together. In that first game, I was scum. In this game, I am town. Can you see how past experiences can be not only manipulated if one chooses to do so but also fairly subjective to the person reading them.

Also, you're wrong. Although I'm not happy with your answers at all, I am starting to feel you're more likely to be town than scum. Not to mention, I am getting annoyed with lurkers/semi-active players contributing nada and making end-game as scum. There are also scummier players than you right now.

You can breathe again.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: NPAU

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@Scripten - That was my interpretation of your post. I'm allowed to give my opinions, right? Just because you disagree with what I was saying, it does not mean I have taken it out of context. Those are different things.

Sure, your opinions are fine. I'm also allowed to disagree with them. I just don't think I have been particularly compliant, as you say, this game.

Your second point has exactly 0 relation to what I actually said to you. How did you accept MS' answer for how he was town-reading Zeb when it told you nothing?

I went back, reread Zeb's posts, and found I agreed with what MS said. Doesn't really have any bearing on whether or not MS is scum, but I'm finding Zeb's slot less scummy for it. Hence my post about it being a fair point. I said you took it out of context because that statement was right next to questions I'd put up for MS to answer. (Speaking of which, I think I need to go and collect some of those where I've been left hanging.)

In case you're wondering, BBT, MS still looks pretty scummy to me. It's Zeb's slot that changed. I still want to see NPAU lynched. He looks like the most likely scum, IMO.

I'm not really happy with these answers and it's something I may come back to at a later point. Given you're pushing a lynch I would also like to see, I'm going to leave it be for now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Need to see more from Uct, Heph and GM.

Waiting for Mala's and GM's reads-lists.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

MS - Are you still town-reading Mala?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

And scum-reading GM?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Dave, in 473 you left out quite a few people from your reads-list. Was there a reason for this?

Have you developed a read on any of the players you left out or have any of your previous reads changed?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@BBT: Time, and maybe. Need to go to work, more complete answer later.

In this upcoming complete answer, can you also tell me why you chose those people to post your reads on.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hi Mala,

Reads-list please.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

i really hate that you are forcing my hand to post a reads list rather than letting me post it naturally. In fact I think me posting one will hurt me more than it will do good at this stage because it's going to show where I am at in terms of hunting people I'm not ready in revealing because of what I was exactly looking for.

You are, but I don't know you are town. So I can't take your word for it. Although you backing down feels a bit townish, idk? I mean I forced your hand the other game to back down by yelling at you in LyLo.

why am i more town than scum? I'm not satisfied with that comment.

I mean part of me thinks you might be town for backing off, but other part thinks you are scum realizing that my lynch might not happen as opportunistic as you would have liked it too and moved to someone who can

But I don't feel like you're contributing much, so I want you to do something useful. I would find a reads-list useful.

I didn't back off you in LyLo because you yelled at me. It really made me wanna tunnel you some more but I had fake-claimed doctor so I obviously had nothing to do but vote the real doctor.

You're recent posts

feel

more town. Like, they're giving me town-vibes. That's how you explain your reads, right?

I could tunnel you to death as either alignment. I quite enjoy tunnelling people, their reactions can be very telling.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I am contributing. You just disagree with my contributions because they aren't up to your level of standards. I really don't want to post a reads list because I have one read that needs more time and once I post this reads list anything I had up in the air with the read will be out to people and what I'm trying to do is lost.

No, you stopped tunneling on me before you fake-claimed doc. It was one of those events leading up to it.

You are an ass sometimes you know that right? I can explain posts fully more than that when triggered because my gut usually is triggered by a post, sometimes it's not, but usually how a post comes off.

Might not be in your best interest as you already know I'm reactionary to tunnels and it often makes me want to tunnel back and I am known to have an attitude back and I'm trying to keep that in check because it hasn't been great as of late.

Correct. I find your contributions thus far very wishy-washy. 'Could be this, could be that' type of posting.

I can be an ass. I'm not gonna deny that. I forgot the gut thing to explain how you felt more town lately. HOW COULD I FORGET GUT!!

You tunnelling me would not put me off tunnelling you. Just putting that out there.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can I have that reads-lis now?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK.

Explain your vote?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You are reminding me of the newbie game where you kept asking for people's thoughts etc.

It has been bugging me yesterday, but today more so, So enjoy you get a vote

YESSSSSS!!!!! I really, really hoped you would use meta to read me and get it wrong. Meta sucks.

Is there something scummy about asking people to contribute? What am I missing here?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm also OK with a GM lynch.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Because it's considered filler and hypocritical because you aren't giving a readslist yourself, but asking others for it.

How is it filler? I want to see people's thoughts/reads.

Nobody has asked me for a reads-list.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

We went over this in the newbie game.

And I disagreed with you.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Explain GM vote?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's it?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I happen to agree.

She said she was working on a reads-list a while back, I've been waiting for it.

I didn't know she was posting elsewhere though.

VOTE: GM

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So BBT, how about that reads list? You seem so obsessed about what everyone else thinks, but seem to be dispensing your own ideas with a dropper.

OK Dave, because I am town I will comply with what I see as a very reasonable request. I would expect others to do the same had I asked such a pro-town and game-progressing question.

Town

Pea
------
Dave
Huntress
Josh
------
Scripten
Uct
Heph
------
MS
------
NPAU
Mala
GM

Scum

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also yes I do feel like silence makes a person look guiltier. So I rather you post random thoughts you deem as shit rather than nothing at all because even if you post things that

you

deem as shit others might not think so and it gives me a way into someone's head.

I have a feeling if players actually did this, you would accuse them of filler posts and not contributing.

I mean part of me thinks you might be town for backing off, but other part thinks you are scum realizing that my lynch might not happen as opportunistic as you would have liked it too and moved to someone who can

Posts like this is what makes me think you're scum. You literally just said before this that I might be town for backing off you. You then re-state it and then counter it by saying I could also be scum for backing off.

You don't provide anything solid. It's all wishy-washy so that you can change your opinion/direction in the game at any given moment.

If you consider something like a votecount to be similar to be a real post, then I sure have been posting elsewhere.

My technical difficulties have been resolved. Have restarted working on the reads. Wednesday is my at-school day, so I'm mildly tapped out atm but it should happen by/during tomorrow.

From what I remember of what I had before:
Zeb or whoever is in that slot is Town still, Sonic and npiau are still Scum.
Toffee and Mala lean Town.

I don't like that it has taken pressure and votes from other players for you to come in post. It feels like you were actively lurking and I don't like it.

I also don't like how my scum-reads keep scum-reading the same people I am.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm not sure about NPAU anymore. I think there's unanimous consent that he's scum. I want to vote there, but I have to agree with Peabody on this one. Hephastus's vote looks the exorbitantly opportunistic. That's where I want to serious vote.

VOTE: Hephastus

I tried a re read on this game. Most of the accusations of town/scum are pretty null.

What changed your read on NPAU?

Just the fact that Heph voted him?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Did you say something about huntress being scummy or something earlier? Or did someone else say that?

Where is shinobi?

Why do you have Dave as a high town read?

Knew I forgot someone. Insert Shinobi in the section where you currently are.

I may have mentioned something about Huntress being scummy early in the game, but I'm town-reading her right now.

Dave looks town to me. So, I'm town-reading him as well.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I just ISO'd myself.

I didn't like some of Huntress' early posting but that's about it, I'm fairly confident she is town at this moment.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

MS, multiple people have taken issue with this post;

Npau has suddenly become a scum read based on 439.

And he is easier to kill than goodmorning

vote npau

Do you have a response?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If he were scum, don't you think that at least one of his buddies would assist?

You actually think everybody is accusing NPAU of being scum?

Is that why he's only at L-3 or whatever it is?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Snip...

Only problems I have with that are;

Pea said he 'might' be scum. Not exactly a scum-read.
Huntress made a passing comment about myself and NPAU not being scum together. That doesn't equal a scum read.
Goodmorning also didn't state she was scum-reading NPAU, she said she could see joining his wagon. But I don't think she ever does.

However, that is still a good amount of the game scum-reading the same person and it will be worth keeping an eye on.

I also find it interesting that, given this information, NPAU has never had more than 4 people on his wagon.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hi Mala,

Reads-list please.

Dave, in 473 you left out quite a few people from your reads-list. Was there a reason for this?

Have you developed a read on any of the players you left out or have any of your previous reads changed?

@BBT: Time, and maybe. Need to go to work, more complete answer later.

In this upcoming complete answer, can you also tell me why you chose those people to post your reads on.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@MS & Mala

- Which one of 637, 639 and 640 made you suddenly feel like GM wasn't scum anymore?

MS, you have been pushing for a GM lynch pretty much all day, it's within your grasp, and you unvote? What is that about? Did somebody say earlier that GM/MS was a possible scum-team? I could see that.

Mala was second on the wagon as well and then she suddenly jumps off with no explanation. A bus gone wrong?

@GM

- What do you make of MS and Mala's actions?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It was more due to the fast wagon and how it got to L-1. I didn't like it personally. So either GM is scum and her partners are bussing her awfully fast or she's town.

If she's town, who were the scum on the wagon?

I don't tend to do a complete spectrum read all at once. I start with people I know, ones who are posting a lot, and ones who are posting but not being useful. The ones I know because it's easier to start from the familiar, the ones who are posting a lot because they tend to either be scum or valuable town assets (before someone jumps to conclusions I mean good scum hunters, not power roles here), and the ones who are posting but not being useful because they're usually either scum flying under the radar or people who are disappointed to be VT.

The answer for whether reads are changed or not can best be found by looking at my subsequent posts.

Hmm, you replied the first time simply with you didn't have the time to do a read for everyone. Now, you come out with all of this?

Can I have a full reads-list please Dave.

@GM

- Can you answer my outstanding question to you please.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I also find it interesting just how fast the NPAU wagon broke up and how fast the GM wagon grew at the same time. I'll go back and see where votes changed from one wagon to the other and check if my thoughts match up.

What did you find out?

this is a fine counterwagon.

Vote: NPAU

Does this mean you're town-reading GM?

So I really hate being on the fence about Huntress. Like I hate it literally.

Some of her posts have given me scum-gut feels (the whole Zeb thing, which I have already commented on), but then there is other posts by her that make her feel town. Such as the questioning which I have also pointed out because that does fit into her town meta. What I really don't like currently is how she hasn't made a comment on the BBT v I argument, which I expected town-Huntress to have taken a side. I have faced a few games where she has barely taken a stance on me besides knowing me for a while and probably having the vast meta to pretty much read-me-like-a-book. Although, I have also seen town her not make a read on me besides gut. My issue frankly is that she hasn't made one comment on my posting which makes me question whether or not she can't read me this game or she's trying to stay silent on it and sweep it under the rug. Either way it's been bothering me for a while so I was hoping that her current read through would give me a glimpse of her stance on BBT v I discussion.

That's a lot of wording to say you're null-reading Huntress.

I'm OK with lynching Mala > NPAU > GM today.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm going to ISO and re-read those 3 and make a final decision on who I want to lynch today.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK.

Mala, this whole game you have been very 'could be town, could be scum' with your reads. Like, from the very beginning.

Can I get a solid reads-list of you please. I don't want to see the words scum

and

town in the same read on one person. I want you to state scum

or

town, it can be mega-town, leaning-town, strong-town, slightly town, towniest player I have ever played with and the same descriptions can be used for scum.

But not both town

and

scum.

So, nothing like this;

I mean part of me thinks you

might be town for backing off

, but other part thinks you

are scum realizing that my lynch might not happen as opportunistic as you would have liked

it too and moved to someone who can

Or this;

This might not be true. She

might not be town

, but I'm not sold on

her being scum either

Or this;

The one thing solid I can say about GM that I do not like is her over-defensiveness with Sonic. Although our last completed game together she wasn't so defensive, but then I just checked a completed scum game too and she wasn't there either.

You stated way back in 160 that you were trying to gain reads on the people you play most with (GM & HS). Yet, to date, you still have no idea on either of them. You followed up in 333 saying your reads will become clearer as the game progresses. I fail to see this progression and development of reads.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can you also explain why your town-read on Josh has changed to a scum-read?

You gave this as your reasoning;

I have gotten townvibes from Josh in the beginning of the game, but that has slowly faded and I'm more leaning towards scum. I don't like how he's trying to throw the word policy lynch down. I feel like he's more using his vote as a comprised vote rather than trying to hunt for actual scum. (Idk if that makes sense) Seems like he's trying to keep out of the spotlight and go for an easier target rather than using his vote and pushing someone harder.

I'm going to stop here for now and throw a vote on Josh because my computer is about to die and I'm too lazy to plug it in before it does so.

VOTE: Josh

However, you have been accusing Josh of trying to policy people since 160, why is this suddenly a reason to vote him now? Especially since you were town-reading him as recently as 617. Not town-vibes, town-reading.

It's funny that I accuse you of using language such as 'vibes', 'gut', 'feeling' so that you can reverse your reads whenever you feel like it and then you follow up and do exactly that.

PEdit - That wasn't a reads-list. It was a whole lot of fluff. This post should clarify my stance for you.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT vs Mala late exchanges looks better for Mala I think. It's clear that Mala's too much use of meta in this game looks suspect, but BBT is freakishly tunneling.

You think I'm tunneling? ISO me, if you still think I am tunneling, I will prove you wrong.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Actually, it's kind of funny that you would accuse me of tunneling NPAU.

Looking through your ISO, the only thing that stands out is your tunneling of GM since your very first post when you voted her to L-3.

Your vote on Huntress in 224 looks weird. You state you were voting Huntress, as opposed to myself or GM who you was scum-reading at the time, so you could 'get something from the day'. Then, with no further interactions between yourself and Huntress, you unvote and vote GM (despite providing a case on me in 320). What exactly was the point of your Huntress vote?

That's pretty much your entire contribution for the day.

I would like you lynched. Mala is still preferred though I think.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

To be honest I don't really know.
I've had my thoughts on the indicativeness of votes/unvotes shaken a bit recently.

Can you do any better than this?

Your ISO really doesn't read much better than NPAU's, if at all. Like, there is nothing I can pick out as alignment indicative and it makes me want to think that's done intentionally and it makes me think you're scum.

Can you explain your town-read on Mala please?

VOTE: Mala

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No because my reads are still in the stage that I call 'waffle' stage. Which is how I do sort my reads out. Exactly how I'm doing right now. If you try to get me to put someone in anorher category I can't promise you after a few posts it will still be in that same one and then you can use the reads list you forced me to post into me being scummy.

Also I was waiting for huntress to comment on us. That's what I was waiting on because she tends to ignore me as scum and interact very little so I was waiting for a reach out from her.

If you look at my posts to Josh you can see that I was never okay with his whole policy lynching. Just ISO go ISO me on that one.

But you said that you should be able to read Huntress and GM due to how much you have played with them. We're nearly 30 pages in and you're null on both of them...how do you think that looks?

I agreed you did not like Josh's policy lynching, in fact, I outright stated it. What I asked was; why are you voting him now for it and not way back at 160 when you complained about it?

You still didn't explain how your town-read on Josh changed to a scum-read, can you do that please?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

For a start, her first post reflects a lot of the same thoughts I'd been having up to that point, though I was pretty vocal about them.
The questions she's asked have been fairly on point.
The way she's engaging with the game is not the same as the way she engages as Scum. No, this is not a thing that's easy to fake.
She's visibly reassessed several times.
(Plus she could probably have pushed a lynch through on me without taking too much flak.)

Sheeping you doesn't make her town.

Can you provide me some examples of her on point questioning.

Disregarding meta-read.

Who has she reassessed and how is this alignment indicative?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I hate how everyone is drawing associative reads from everything.

I'm looking at them and they all look dumb. Maybe it's just me.

I agree. Associative reads without flips/relevant information are indeed dumb.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mala, you going to respond to 696?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah, NPAU and possibly GM. The more I re-read the worse she looks.

But I'd rather lynch Mala.

Need to see more from Uct, Heph and GM.

Waiting for Mala's and GM's reads-lists.

I happen to agree.

She said she was working on a reads-list a while back, I've been waiting for it.

I didn't know she was posting elsewhere though.

VOTE: GM

This is pretty much all I got in terms of GM.

Sonic presented a case, and I agreed with his suspicions but I disagreed with his conclusion (he thought she was scum, I didn't). However, the main reason I disagreed is because I fully expected GM to improve her play, start contributing, and start scum-hunting. This didn't happen, and still hasn't happened.

I guess you could say it's a read that just accumulated over time because GM just hasn't done anything in this game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I love how every time I post, I go up in people's town lists.

Not for me you don't.

being active

and making reasonable comments will do that to you.

The bold made me laugh. I can appreciate a good joke.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

This I don't like.

You think Shinobi is active?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hmm, can you elaborate?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

This is pretty much all I got in terms of GM.

Sonic presented a case, and I agreed with his suspicions but I disagreed with his conclusion (he thought she was scum, I didn't). However, the main reason I disagreed is because I fully expected GM to improve her play, start contributing, and start scum-hunting. This didn't happen, and still hasn't happened.

I guess you could say it's a read that just accumulated over time because GM just hasn't done anything in this game.

Was Mala's vote on GM a tipping point for you?

Nope.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT,

Did Mala have anything at all to do with your GM vote? I'm hella confused on this.

The timing was strange to me and I'm trying to unpack why.

Can you quote posts that you're talking about please, it will make it easier for me to see the time-frame and respond.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I agree that it does look weird.

I agreed that GM looked scummy because she was posting elsewhere, especially as she had posted saying she was working on a reads-list and we were still waiting for that reads-list at that time.

It looked like stalling and an attempt to avoid anyone focusing on her.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Nothing has changed.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Has it changed the fact that GM is barely contributing? No.

Has it changed the fact that I don't feel she has been scum-hunting. No.

Has it changed the fact that I think GM is scum. No.

Has it changed my view on GM's posting elsewhere. Yes.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Sigh.

Prod dodge whilst waiting for Mala's wagon to pick up.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Please tell me where I omgus voted you.

You OMGUS'ed him when you said you were town-reading him, then he said he was suspicious of you and then you were scum-reading him.

It has been pointed out to you before.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I pointed it out to you in 691 and you never fully addressed it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mala, how do you do it?

You don't provide anything solid or substantive but you manage to get away with it without being pressured at all.

It truly is an art.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It was a genuine question coupled with a genuine comment.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm hoping Mala gets lynched, yes. When I think I have found scum, I like to see them hang.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You think you'll talk enough people into joining you, today, before the deadline?
Right now, I'm seeing a no-lynch as a distinct possibility, and I'm not liking it at all. The town is going to need to come together on what we do today.

Probably not, but I still like to leave my vote on scum. Just in case.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Who do you consider good leads?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

My best case on Mala is prob in 691.

It's very difficult to build a case on her because she is very good at actively lurking.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Sigh.

It feels genuine. I still don't like it took her near 2 weeks to present it, but w/e.

UNVOTE:

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I guess I just didn't expect it to take that long, especially when you named 4 or 5 people that you have played with before that you said you would be able to gain reads on quickly.

It doesn't matter now anyway.

VOTE: NPAU

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Prongs.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Lol. Autocorrect.

Prodge.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think it's L1

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I thought that MS.

I don't think I like this wagon anymore

UNVOTE: NPAU

VOTE: GM

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Pea, Josh and Uct - Put your votes to use please.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I already said I wasn't sure, and the posts since I revoted have made me less sure. But hopping to GM feels like hopping to town. I think I'll watch the thread and clock.

Why are you town-reading GM?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

And town GM wouldn't? I don't agree with that logic.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't think he is being town-read for referencing an ongoing game. His recent posting looks like it's coming from town.

Mala, not long ago you thought GM was scum. I'm not sure how much credit I can give your confident read.

Let me re-read your thoughts on GM from reads-list.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Well, that was quick.

You don't even mention why you're town-reading GM. You bracket her with Huntress, explain your Huntress town-read and say nothing about GM.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

GM's reply to one of my posts. Town is way more likely to give that reply than scum. In fact, I'm nearly certain that GM is town because of a single sentence. No, I'm not going to quote it now.

Hmm, how vague. From what I can see, GM has only replied to your posts twice, and I don't see how you could town-read her so strongly from what she said.

You're going to have to elaborate. I don't like this read, your explanation for this read or your recent posting.

If I thought I could get a wagon going on you in time for deadline, I would vote you. Unfortunately, I don't think we have enough time left.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Few hours left.

This NPAU wagon is bad. Funny thing is, I think it's mostly town-driven

GM has kept her vote out of sight. She is keeping quiet and not drawing much attention to herself. Her vote just looks too safe, she knows at this point of the Day, her vote needs to mean something and it accomplishes nothing on MS.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Meta.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Josh & Pea, move your votes on GM please. MS and Heph are not viable lynches at this time

Your vote looks really bad Josh. Seriously.

I can understand cases of NPAU {or} GM but {NOT} cases of {NPAU} and {GM}.

I'll move my vote to anyone that has made a case for NPAU and GM both being scum...

Unfortunately, it's probably too late for that, but I don't plan on lynching Town.

First part reads as contradictory to me...am I reading it wrong?

Second part doesn't make sense. It's too late to jump on board NPAU or GM...so you jump on a wagon that had one previous voter?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I need sleep.

Aww, man. Please let me wake up and GM has been lynched.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: GM

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Uct and NPAU may be good wagons also. These are based on reading Scripten's ISO now that he be dead.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

WOW...I really wish I could edit my posts.

Uct or GM for me today.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think a uct and GM are bad choices. Didn't the fast wagon clear GM?

Besides what Scripten said about Uct, what's your oppinion of Uct?

Why would a fast-wagon clear GM? Didn't do it for me at all and she is still one of my top scum-reads.

Uct hasn't done much that has stood out to me except for have a little squabble with Shinobi. I've changed my mind now anyway after having re-read late D1 actions. Uct can go on the back-burner for now.

What do you think about yesterdays lynch?

I thought it was a bad wagon. NPAU was looking like town to me late D1 and I tried to make a viable push for who I thought was scum (by voting GM). The quote below has me thinking that you could be scum, that vote was completely pointless and didn't accomplish anything.

I can't wrap my head around Josh's vote yesterday.

It was completely useless and there was no way MS was getting lynched at that point. And I don't even particularly see the point of what his case was.

I'm going to analyze the NPAU wagon and see what I can come up with. I didn't like Dave's late D1 posting at all and that's where my vote is going right now.

VOTE: Dave

[BlueBloodedToffee]

nopointinactingup: Scripten, Metal Sonic, Huntress, Malakittens, davesaz, Peabody, ucitron00

Here's how I'm reading the wagon;

Conf. Town, leaning town, leaning town, leaning town, scum, town, null.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Picked out a couple of posts from a quick skim of Dave's ISO;

UNVOTE:

I'm getting a read that says lynching NPAU could be a mistake. It would be a bad thing to fully explain this read now, but I don't want to leave the vote at L-2. If I'm wrong and the read does not develop further, it is easy enough to get back on.

So, you got a bad feeling about the NPAU wagon. You couldn't explain this feeling because it would help scum. Now that he is dead, can you explain it?

Your read says the wagon was a bad wagon. But you state that if the read does not develop (what? How are you expecting it to develop, you already said you think it's a bad lynch) you can easily jump back on.

This looks like scum faking a conscious to me. Because, after jumping off you pretty much did nothing to further reads anywhere else. You asked a couple of questions, that didn't get answered, then stated you would still like answers, then re-voted NPAU without getting the answers you were looking for. This makes me think they were filler questions and you didn't really care about the answers anyway.

The whole jumping off/on the NPAU wagon just reads fake to me.

BTW, since someone will probably ask... If I explained what I thought I saw it would help scum.

Second time you state you can't explain it. Can you now?

I already said I wasn't sure,

and the posts since I revoted have made me less sure

. But hopping to GM feels like hopping to town. I think I'll watch the thread and clock.

Why are you town-reading GM?

GM's reply to one of my posts. Town is way more likely to give that reply than scum. In fact, I'm nearly certain that GM is town because of a single sentence. No, I'm not going to quote it now.

Here, again, you express that you think it's a bad wagon, worse than the first time around but you

still

sit on it because...well, why did you stay on it? Are you saying GM was the only other viable option? You couldn't try to produce a case on somebody else or try to derail the wagon on NPAU? Instead, you decide to 'watch the thread and clock'. Hmm, that doesn't look like town to me. That looks like scum trying to keep themselves out of the spotlight and wait for somebody to do something that you can sheep. Or you just wait for NPAU to get lynched (even though you didn't like the wagon).

Now, on D2, you don't mention anything about the NPAU wagon. You don't pursue your 'bad feelings' about the wagon or anybody on it, instead, you try to find out who the Masons are.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Pea, thoughts on my case on Dave?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Obviously, I was concerned that NPAU might have been mason. At least one of you figured out what I was trying to say -- don't remember who it was though. So I pulled back and tried to find the association. If I had been able to find one, I would have been convinced, and went on to attack the person attacking the associate. But in all the combinations of interactions with NPAU I couldn't find a plausible attacker and defender.

So the upshot is, if you have reservations about a lynch say nothing? Or stay off, vote a meaningless target, and let it go no-lynch?

I think that from {BBT, Mala, Josh} we'll find our scum. Don't know which 2. Uctritron comes in a distant 4th.

What I don't get is why nobody has bothered to look at who Scripten would be dangerous to. Or if you're looking, nobody is saying anything about it.

VOTE: Josh

I'm going to assume that this is your response to my case.

VOTE: NPAU

I already said I wasn't sure, and the posts since I revoted have made me less sure. But hopping to GM feels like hopping to town. I think I'll watch the thread and clock.

Those quotes don't look like your town-read was based on him being a Mason. You became less sure of him after his recent posting, if you thought there was the slightest chance he was Mason, I am sure (as town) you would have gotten off that wagon. You're also assuming his associate would have been under attack from somebody, that first paragraph is very strangely worded.

Him being a 'Mason' had nothing to do with you read and I go back to you faking a conscious and trying to look like concerned town.

I like how you and Josh are using other people's cases to soft-defend each other. I feel pretty confident one of you is scum now, the fact you've decided to vote Josh is extremely opportunistic given you have shown no inclination of a Josh scum-read this entire game. Trying to start a counter-wagon?

You did nothing to stop a wagon on someone you thought could have been Mason at one point. You became less sure of his lynch as his wagon grew, yet, you did

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT IT

. Instead, you decided to 'Watch the clock and thread', which does not come from a town perspective.

Can you explain your scum-reads on Mala, Josh and myself, because they have all literally come from nowhere. You attempted to sheep me late D1 on Mala, Mala provided a reads-list and content, and then would I be incorrect as to say you were town-reading her? What's changed?

Can we start voting Dave please.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Toffee, what is your read on Mala at this point? Actually, could I ask you for a full read list like 600? Reasoning not necessary, just to get an idea of where exactly everyone stands with you right now

Reads;

Town

Huntress
---------
Mala
Josh
---------
Heph
MS
Shinobi
Uct
---------
GM
Pea
---------
Dave

Scum

The reads between Heph and Uct are reads I need to have another look at and reads that could go either way right now. Heph and MS are leaning towards town to me, Uct and Shinobi are leaning towards scum (though, I doubt both are scum, it's one or the other)

I'm asking: what would he have gained, as each alignment, from trying to make the npiau wagon go away at that point in time?

He wasn't trying to make the wagon go away.

Did you read my case?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What scum in their right mind would leave a NPAU wagon and then go back on, especially posting what I did? Did you read my explanation at all? There is plenty of town reasoning to do what I did, which is not a big surprise given I'm town. Town don't want to lynch masons, where scum would like nothing better. If I were scum and thought NPAU a mason, I'd try even harder to get him lynched. I can't imagine anyone playing badly enoiugh as scum to leave and go back. It's way too risky to try a gambit like that.

You're right, it's

way

too risky. I mean look at all the attention you have got because of it...oh wait, no, that doesn't actually seem to be what's happened.

I said you were trying to fake town conscious. I also said if you had the slightest inkling that NPAU was Mason, you would have got off that wagon altogether.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

My read on Pea has changed. You will see it in my latest reads-list.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT, what changed your read on me from town to scum in two pages?

You didn't look as town to me on a second read of D1. I haven't gone into a whole lot of detail on it yet, but I will do when I feel it is relevant.

He did hop off the wagon... My question is why he hopped back on it.

This is what I meant when I said

altogether

, he should

never

have got back on that wagon if he was town.

I can't say much to this except I was frustrated the person I wanted to be lynched didn't even have a wagon on him. There was a real threat that there was going to be a no-lynch, and after playing a horribly frustrating game not long ago, I'm a little more paranoid about this happening. I felt uneasy about BBT's request to vote GM without question, so I didn't. Yes, I was being rebellious. NPAU was also pinging me as town. So what do I do when there is 12 hours left to lynch and no one is budging? The best I could do at that time with the amount of analysis I've done so far was to just hammer one of them so we don't reach a no lynch.

This is interesting.

Look back at D1 and look how many people were unsure of the NPAU and GM wagons. If anybody had any other reads, they

could

should have tried to push someone they were scum-reading. This is what Josh did, this is why Josh is probably town.

Dave, on the other hand, didn't. This is why Dave is prob scum.

Pea, didn't. This is why my read on Pea has changed significantly.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I have briefly mentioned it, you will see on the catch-up.

Please continue.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Dave isn't town.

So if you could vote Dave that would be grand.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah Mod, that would be helpful.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No lynch is worse for town than a mislynch, provided the mislynched player is not a PR.
I got worried about the possibility that NPAU could be a PR, so I jumped off to check that out.
Having concluded that NPAU was probably not a PR, a lynch was needed. Therefore I got back on.
I thought then, and still do think, that GM is town.
You disagree with my GM read, and are projecting that as a scum read on me because I preferred the NPAU (possible scum) to GM (probably town) wagon.

OK, let's take this a step at a time because you're ignoring huge parts of my case.

What made you think NPAU was Mason?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, let's take this a step at a time because you're ignoring huge parts of my case.

What made you think NPAU was Mason?

The masons don't seem to want to be outed, though we haven't had a reply this game day from everyone yet, I don't think.
Don't know if it would be right to explain the exact details of why, if doing so would expose them.

Interactions between two other players made it look like one of them could be mason with NPAU and the other scum trying to find the mason pair. For the reason I just mentioned, I'm not going to reveal which two players. The in-depth review of that interaction didn't yield anything useful.

What parts of your case am I skipping?

Given that you now know that they

CANNOT

be Mason with NPAU, I think it's safe to assume you were wrong and can disclose what lead you to thinking NPAU could be Mason.

I certainly don't see a problem with outing someone who you think is scum trying to find Mason's either.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

He really does not have to do that. And we should avoid talking about who might be a mason in general.

Yeah, he does. He was wrong, whoever he thought was Mason

with

NPAU is obviously not so there is no reason not to explain his thought process behind that read.

I'm not asking him to out a Mason. I'm asking him to explain how he came to an incorrect read on somebody being Mason

with

NPAU.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Just to clarify, his read on a Mason is not independent. It was reliant upon NPAU being Mason, which he obviously wasn't.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If the person who was not Mason with NPAU is still mason, talking about the reasons I thought that person was mason with NPAU would out their role.

I know you're not this dense. Your play has otherwise been very strong, both in this game and the completed newbie game. Therefore you're trying to get me to identify one of the masons for you, while still espousing the belief that outing them is bad.

VOTE: BBT

Tut, tut, tut.

The person who you were reading as Mason was

NOT

an independent read, it was

based

on the

assumption

that NPAU was Mason. Now, we know that NPAU is

NOT

Mason, therefore, your read on who you thought was the Mason becomes invalid because it was

NOT

a stand alone read. The person you were initially reading as Mason can no longer be correct because the connection to NPAU

didn't exist

.

Explain it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can we get some more votes on Dave please.

He is quite clearly lying about his supposed Mason link. He has used that to try and keep himself alive.

Josh & Mala, vote Dave please. Heph can join in as well.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Stop defending him otherwise I'll be forced to lynch you after he flips scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

In fact, Wisdom, can you explain your town-read on Dave?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hi Mala,

Vote Dave?

PEdit - Seriously Josh, that's the part you're going to pick out after everything I have said?

If you had an inkling that someone was Mason, even the slightest inkling, would you lynch them? Would you jump back on their wagon?

Vote Dave?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I find it astonishing you think that's all my case on Dave boils down to.

His explanation is nowhere near satisfactory. Please see 1130 for why I am not yet satisfied.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yes it does make sense.

I want to see what Dave

thought

he saw that made NPAU Mason. That's all I'm asking for this part of my case.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wisdom, why won't you explain town-read on Dave?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mala. if you're referring to our first game it was Newbie 1495, modded by JacobSavage.

PEdit - I can promise you right now, I will not let this go. Ask Mala.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yes it does make sense.

I want to see what Dave

thought

he saw that made NPAU Mason. That's all I'm asking for this part of my case.

That would involve discussion about who might be a mason. Can you seriously not comprehend that no such discussion should happen?

No it wouldn't because that

mason link to NPAU doesn't exist anymore. NPAU got lynched and was VT.

Read what I'm writing.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Although I keep forgetting that BBT townslipped pretty hard at the start of Day 2. WHY CAN'T I GET THIS PARANOIA GONE?!?!

Did I?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

yes you did.

Wisdom just ignore me - everytime I start going on and on about BBT being potentially scum remind me of the townslip~

What was it? I'm intrigued.

He would still talk about someone being potentially a mason. Still a no-go. Still not happening.
The mason read he got was not necessarily only because of connection with npiau anyway.

No he wouldn't, because he

explicitly stated

that his mason read was in

direct relation to NPAU.

That is what caused him to 'reconsider' the wagon for a very brief moment.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Interactions between two other players made it look like one of them could be mason

with

NPAU

BBT, this is what dave said.

It does not in any way rule out that dave could have had thoughts about that player being a mason in general, with the connection to npiau being only secondary.

Yes, it was that possible connection that made him want to unvote. But it does not rule out a general belief about the person being a mason regardless.

I do not get why I have to explain all this when it's obvious.

With NPAU. Not alone. With NPAU.

There is no indication at all about him being a stand-alone Mason and I'm not sure why you're inferring that. If Dave flips scum, you're next,

I want to see what he thought he saw.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Jesus Christ.

I'm going to lose my fucking shit any second now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Dave said that there was no link there and that's why he revoted.

So clearly he doesn't think there is a Mason link anymore. Given he doesn't think there is a Mason link anymore, which he must do because he revoted NPAU, I see no problem with exposing this link that doesn't link to a Mason anymore.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Ah, you have no reply to that one? You may feel it is a small detail, I do not.

I have looked at his play. I presented a case on him, it contained many different points and not just this point we're currently discussing.

I chose to discuss it point by point because I felt Dave was purposely ignoring sections of my case.

Once I am satisfied with his replies to this part of my case, I will move onto the next part.

PEdit - Meta, yay!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Dave, your read on the Mason was in direct relation to NPAU, correct?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Nice of Wisdom to give you an easy road out Dave. I expect you'll take it.

If enough people don't vote Dave when I return to forum tomorrow I guess I will have to move on to the other reasons I think he is scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I already said I wasn't sure,

and the posts since I revoted have made me less sure

. But hopping to GM feels like hopping to town. I think I'll watch the thread and clock.

Why are you town-reading GM?

GM's reply to one of my posts. Town is way more likely to give that reply than scum. In fact, I'm nearly certain that GM is town because of a single sentence. No, I'm not going to quote it now.

Here, again, you express that you think it's a bad wagon, worse than the first time around but you

still

sit on it because...well, why did you stay on it? Are you saying GM was the only other viable option? You couldn't try to produce a case on somebody else or try to derail the wagon on NPAU? Instead, you decide to 'watch the thread and clock'. Hmm, that doesn't look like town to me. That looks like scum trying to keep themselves out of the spotlight and wait for somebody to do something that you can sheep. Or you just wait for NPAU to get lynched (even though you didn't like the wagon).

Now, on D2, you don't mention anything about the NPAU wagon. You don't pursue your 'bad feelings' about the wagon or anybody on it, instead, you try to find out who the Masons are.

Why did you stay on the wagon?
Why didn't you try to stop the wagon?
Why didn't you try to push somebody else's wagon?
What is the town motivation behind 'Watching the thread and clock' on a wagon you don't feel sure of?
Why did you not follow up on the NPAU wagon you disliked so much at start of D2?

Instead of following up on what you thought was a bad wagon, you decided to try and find out who the Masons are (even though you've already "found" one, right?)

What changed;

So, exactly why would you not like the idea of finding out who they are? Two confirmed town would help.

You wanted to out the Masons here. Now though, it's so anti-town that you couldn't even possibly consider it.

I call bullshit. If you don't get lynched today, I'm going to be super pissed.

Also, there is more to my case that you ignored, but I'd like to continue doing things one step at a time.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's fine.

Now answer the rest of that post.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You wanted to out the Masons here. Now though, it's so anti-town that you couldn't even possibly consider it.

I think they should claim. Since they have not, I conclude they think it's a bad idea. I'm deferring to their judgment.

Final

answer.

You're certainly being selective about what you choose to answer to.

It has been noted.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Let's run this out, right now, just me and you.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Meh, I expected as much given Wisdom isn't here to defend you now.

Wisdom you better be super sure on your town-read on Dave, because I'm going after you immediately after Dave should he flip scum and you continue to defend him the way you're doing.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You're boring. You'll sheep me on Peabody eventually, so why delay it?

Stop trying to discredit me.

You told me to move on, I have moved onto other parts of my case. I'm not sure why you still have a problem.

I don't want you getting involved, I don't want you providing answers for Dave, I don't want you defending Dave.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Thanks for you input.

Bye bye.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't know why you're asking hypothetical questions GM.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

There's no point in discussing hypothetical situations.

Let's focus on what actually happened.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It's not about what he would have gained.

It's about how he reacted to a wagon that he wasn't happy with.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hi Shinobi,

Ae you going to start putting any effort into this game?

Actually, you don't even need to put that much effort in, just vote Dave.