Open 570: Making Friends and Enemies (Mafia Wins!)

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/confirm

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Hmmmmmm Sonic might be Scum.

Vote:Goodmorning

Why?

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Hmmmmmm Sonic might be Scum.

Vote:Goodmorning

Why?

Also, is this a serious vote?

Yes, it is

Hmmmmmm Sonic might be Scum.

Why?

Because that post was so utterly overdone it's ridiculous. He's holding the cards in his left hand and telling us to watch the right, but in such an obvious way that it looks to me like a double- or triple-bluff.
I mean, there're a couple different options and not all of them have him as Scum, but it's pretty blatantly manipulative and I don't like it.

I get that it's ridiculous, but you were pointing out his likelihood of being scum in a wishy washy manner, not his supposedly ludicrous manipulative attempts. DO you find any scum motivation behind the post?

I think it was the way the "Why?" came after the vote rather than after the quote. Like he needed an excuse for joining an rvs wagon. It just didn't seem to flow.

No it was rather a serious vote.

I fail to see how "soft-defending" anyone is relevant information. Are you implying that NPAU is his scumbuddy? How does that make him scum in this circumstance? Why don't you think a mason would make that post?

It's not a whole lot to go on right now, but it can be very useful later in the game when there will have been flips/NK's.

I may be implying that NPAU could be his scum-buddy. Of course, he could be a Mason soft-defending his partner, but as I previously stated, I have already ruled this possibility out.

This is a flimsy argument on Day1, since it depends not only on MS being scum first (which is highly unlikely), but also that scum actually defends their partners at all (which is 50-50 at best).

Yes, but it's not always going to stay like that. It's not random for me anymore, but that's my view. I feel like there's enough non fluff content to get out of RVS stage.

@BBT: when you questioned ms' vote on Zeb

Nah, I was trying to understand the reason behind MS' vote because I couldn't see one.

You couldn't find any reason in MS's post, which means you couldn't find anything scummy in MS's posts, yet you're already linking him to supposed scum-buddy?

Unvote.Vote: BBT

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This is a flimsy argument on Day1, since it depends not only on MS being scum first (which is highly unlikely), but also that scum actually defends their partners at all (which is 50-50 at best).

We've only got 5 pages. Are you expected a rock-solid case by now? Please.

Why is it highly unlikely that MS is scum?

Because there's no scum motivation in doing something like that. It is clear that he wrote the "partner" intentionally for some kinda gambit. But since there's no reason for scum to do that at all, chances are he's town unless he's incredibly manipulative. Even then, he would face controversy surrounding his post, so I'm more inclined that it's a anti-town, but town move.

You both soft-defended each other. It's quite plausible that you're both scum.

Define soft defend. Why would scum more likely to soft defend each other and not just outright defend or outright distance each other?

I couldn't find the reason for why MS voted Zeb. Therefore, I asked (tongue-in-cheek) if he was voting him for his bad grammar as that was the only *reason* I could see. I have seen plenty of scummy behaviour from MS so far, and have stated such things in 72.

I'll state this part again to avoid any confusion. I do not think MS is scum

solely based on his soft-defend

of you. I also

do not think

that would be a valid reason on it's own to lynch somebody.

BUT

, it can become useful later in the game due to flips/NK's. Capiche?

There you are stating my point. You are not entirely sure about MS-scum, yet you're linking him to buddies. It sounded much like feign tunneling to me. Furthermore I don't agree with your other reasoning, town are not afraid of pressure so are more likely to gambit and vote hop. Scums normally just wants to lay low and cruise through.

I get that it's ridiculous, but you were pointing out his likelihood of being scum in a wishy washy manner, not his supposedly ludicrous manipulative attempts. DO you find any scum motivation behind the post?

If I didn't then I'd hardly be likely to say I'd thought he could be Scum, would I?

I think it was the way the "Why?" came after the vote rather than after the quote. Like he needed an excuse for joining an rvs wagon. It just didn't seem to flow.

No it was rather a serious vote.

Which you oddly have yet to really explain, afaik.

And why do I have to explain Huntress's imagination?

On another note, BBT is looking more contributive so I'll give him more leeway.
GM's OMGUS on MS is just bad. I'm willing to lynch her but I'd rather gain more in the day.

Unvote.Vote:Huntress

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Coming into the game, something about these questions caused me to question BBT. I asked myself 'is this line of questioning real or is he going to do something with this info?'

Oh, he found scum.

I just -don't believe- his conviction here.

Everything about this case on MS does not seem right from BBT: To have such an aggressive stance from the beginning and based on negligible reasons.

Neglibible reasons, you say? Why... what negligable reasons?
1) Vote hopping... (Not alignment indicative)
2) "Partner" (Eh, I read this as 'I'm a VT. Mason is my partner.') [On a side note, I think a scum-MS would have addressed this 'partner' concern. This word could go either way alignment-wise].
3) Pre-flipped associative tells.

This is exactly the BBT inconsistency I'm getting at.

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What you have to explain is your apparently serious vote. Stop dodging.

It was a pressure vote. As far as I know. I can explain my vote whenever like to.

GM's OMGUS on MS is just bad. I'm willing to lynch her but I'd rather gain more in the day.

The definition of OMGUS: To suspect someone in reaction to their suspecting you.
I suspected Sonic. He then "suspected" me in direct reaction.
If either of us is OMGUSing, it's Sonic.

Apparently, your case against him consist of nothing besides his argument is (supposedly) wrong. THAT, is OGMUS

@BBT:

[quote="In post 228

Because there's no scum motivation in doing something like that. It is clear that he wrote the "partner" intentionally for some kinda gambit. But since there's no reason for scum to do that at all, chances are he's town unless he's incredibly manipulative. Even then, he would face controversy surrounding his post, so I'm more inclined that it's a anti-town, but town move.

So you're saying that scum cannot be incredibly manipulative?

-->

I'm more

inclined

that it's a anti-town, but town move.

Unvote.Vote:Huntress

Wait, what? So all your talk is directed at me and GM, and then you vote Huntress.

-->

but I'd rather gain more in the day.

Unvote.Vote:Huntress

This comes to a normative question of whether you think to always justify your vote

immediately

is a good town move. I don't think so.

This is exactly the BBT inconsistency I'm getting at.

What inconsistency would that be?

Look at my previous post plus Peabody's post

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Hmm, maybe you shouldn't town-read people so quickly.

I like this comment from BBT. Very townish. I can't tell you how many times I've town read someone for little or no reason only to get burned later. I think I remember Wolfy making this comment recently in another thread. But alas, town hunting is just as important as scum hunting. And getting it wrong is part of the game.

Does this in anyway imply that he's more townish?

And I think there were more ppl voting goodmorning

True dat. and that post 29 really struck me as the scummiest post so far.

Unvote:Huntress.
Vote: Good morning

@BBT:

So, all-in-all your post was pretty wishy-washy then? Covering both sides of the argument. That's a good scum-tell.

I want

you

to point out my inconsistencies. Show me where I have been inconsistent.

Wishy washy? Did you just take that up from

your ass

nowhere? I took into account the small possibility that I was wrong but still pretty damn insistent on MS town. Anyone who's reading can see that.

*Inconsistency. LOOK CLOSELY cuz I've already mentioned it. Actually I want everyone to look at this for future reference
post 55
post 56
post 58
post 64
post 65
post 68
post 76
3 things stand out here. He said he had found scum (meant MS). Ask others to sheep him

multiple times

AND link MS to supposed scumbuddy.
This must mean he has a pretty adamant scum read on MS right??

When asked about why he thought MS was scum. The only reply I could see are:
post 76 I didn't like what he did, which is not in any way related to "he's scum"
post 101 This is a crucial post. After being pressured about his read on MS. He said he "couldn't see the reason behind MS's gambit post". That means he couldn't have found a scum reason for it either.
Which brings us to why he was so adamant about MS being scum early on? I cannot see BBT-town doing this. I can see BBT-scum doing this, but only as chainsaw defense for good morning, which is relatively weak as a tell.

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And I think there were more ppl voting goodmorning

True dat.

How is MS's (mistaken) comment to the mod relevant here?

It's not. But it's relevant in that I think more people should vote GM.

Define soft defend. Why would scum more likely to soft defend each other and not just outright defend or outright distance each other?

Might do a short meta checkup, but that's ringing scum to me.

How can I respond to this if you don't provide explanations lol. I've seen and done both of the above as scum before. Btw, this is the first game I've played since a year ago so meta might not really apply. Check if you like.

______________________________________________________________________
BBT is looking townish again T.T. Now that I look at it, Mala has yet to make a serious vote. AT this stage of the game, that's VERY scummy.

UNVOTE: GM
VOTE: Mala

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- Getting a scummy vibe from NPAU all game. I don't really like he feels all over the place. Also, a little active lurky. Feels like he hops in, makes a short push, and hops out for a bit. Once I ISO him, I can make a better informed read on him. For now, moderate scum lean.

I have to admit I thought I could do more with my votes for this game than I did. But there's just so much distraction and potshots at me that I couldn't read properly. My only true scum read atm would be GM and Mala if you're wondering

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NPAU do you think people are making pot shots at you because you have 8 posts and 5 of them contain vote changes?
That's if you count your "confirm" post. Nearly all of your posts have had a vote change.
Goodmorning
BBT
Huntress
Goodmorning again
and Now
Mala

On top of that, they are nearly all without player engagement.
I'm still not sure what the Huntress vote was for. Can you explain?

I don't see a problem with vote changes, especially in the beginning of the game, when you are trying to figure out who is scum among the many.
My vote on Huntress was a gut thing. I felt like she was mainly cruising through the game being neutral. She had no vote so I voted her to see how she would respond. She didn't really respond but I was back at arguing with BBT before I could follow up on it

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Npau has suddenly become a scum read based on 439.
And he is easier to kill than goodmorning

vote npau

This is a scummy post.
First, he didn't explain why my vote on Mala was scummy.
Second, he said "kill" rather than "lynch", which I think is a scum thing
Third, why would you try to lynch an easier target on Day 1, especially when deadline's not rushing?

You never really followed up with BBT though either. re: 228 Can you say why you think BBT is townish?

I did if you've read. BBT's push on Mala looks townish as I wouldn't expect scum to pressure so many targets. Maybe one for show?

Npau, why is it that you think it's bad that Mala doesn't have a serious vote down but you've completely ignored the fact that I haven't either?

I didn't ignore you. I just didn't notice you didn't have a vote. The difference between you and Mala is that you are stating your read while Mala is pretty much just defending herself and giving meta fillers. That's why I you didn't ping on my scumdar and thus I didn't look to see whether you voted or not.

NPAU do you think people are making pot shots at you because you have 8 posts and 5 of them contain vote changes?
That's if you count your "confirm" post. Nearly all of your posts have had a vote change.
Goodmorning
BBT
Huntress
Goodmorning again
and Now
Mala

On top of that, they are nearly all without player engagement.
I'm still not sure what the Huntress vote was for. Can you explain?

I don't see a problem with vote changes, especially in the beginning of the game, when you are trying to figure out who is scum among the many.
My vote on Huntress was a gut thing. I felt like she was mainly cruising through the game being neutral. She had no vote so I voted her to see how she would respond. She didn't really respond but I was back at arguing with BBT before I could follow up on it

To reiterate the question, what good does a vote do if there is no player engagement to go with it? I've seen town use a vote plus commentary and interaction and move on if the interaction is satisfactory, but you feel more like scum tossing votes to see if a wagon can magically appear. That technique gives scum an out of "but I didn't start that wagon, clearly my vote wasn't serious." Or a chance to move off once it gains traction, hiding the scum distancing in a vote hopping pattern.

Yeah .. What you're saying is basically WIFOM. For one, I don't believe in magic. For two, there was already a lot of wagons to choose from at that moment, why would I try to start a new one as scum?

Looking at NPAU's 439. This post is in response to NPAU's asking for a definition of soft-defense of scum partners.

How can I respond to this if you don't provide explanations lol. I've seen and done both of the above as scum before. Btw, this is the first game I've played since a year ago so meta might not really apply. Check if you like.

Why do you relate soft-defending to your meta or lack thereof?

NO .. Scripten was saying he wanted to check my meta so I said meta might not apply. DOn't quote partially please.

OK. Anyways, I want Scripten and BBT to give a case on me. The others are sheeping/scum I think. TBH, I'm no fan of this game, but I'll try to respond to it the best I can

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UNVOTE:

Why this?

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Sorry, NPAU, the quotes are difficult to follow, so it was not my intention to misquote you. But I must ask you to clarify. Is the thing you've done in your meta before soft-defending? Or was it something else? I am unclear. Also, how does it help any defense against Scripten wanting to meta read you?
.

No. I mentioned my meta would be a year ago because I thought meta-ing me at this point of time is not useful.

Npau is still likely scum


I have no motivation to write cases just go lynch him just go

This guy.

OK. Anyways, I want Scripten and BBT to give a case on me. The others are sheeping/scum I think. TBH, I'm no fan of this game, but I'll try to respond to it the best I can

I'll do this as soon as I can. For the moment, I would suggest ISOing NPAU and getting context on the places where he votes to see why he looks suspect to me.

So ... Why don't you do this? Where is this?

BBT vs Mala late exchanges looks better for Mala I think. It's clear that Mala's too much use of meta in this game looks suspect, but BBT is freakishly tunneling.
GM is probscum. I'd gladly join her wagon actually

Unvote.Vote:GM

L-1

Just to be clear, these are my points, and I'm too cool to use meta like all you people ..
1> post 29 screams scum.
2> She was posting response to slow walk questions while delaying reading 2,3 pages of the game.
3> Her vote on MS had no indication that she thought he was scum.
4> When pressed, she makes up circumstantial evidence.

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Look, I have a life outside of mafia.

There are 6 people on my wagon and I only have townreads on 2 of them. uct is null and the rest look like scum to me.

When half the people on your wagon look like Scum, it makes you feel real good about yourself.

SO you don't see anything wrong with concluding there's 3 scum on your wagon? That's a lazy read to me and it proves that you're not trying to find out who scum is, meaning you're scum.

Masons should recruit goodmorning tonight to 'cop' her and we should lynch npau today

Case? I have never seen any content on me from you.

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This game gets my fullest attention tomorrow.

Why did NPAU put GM to L-1? His vote moves around so much for such faulty reasons. Ugh.

SO you don't think I should wagon my scum read? I already mentioned why she's scum.

Case on NPAU

Jumpy vote hopping (All of his votes so far have apparently been serious, as per (105)): (33) (105) (224) (320) (439)

Null/Personal

Finds MS unlikely to be scum, (224) but, despite MS's playstyle not changing, he considers him scum by (521).Yet, he barely pushes at MS, which is a marked change from his other accusations. I also did not notice him voting MS

This is a serious fucking misrep.

I said it was a scummy post, not MS is scum

. There's a difference. The only time I mentioned who was on my scum-list I mentioned GM and Mala.

Considering how much his votes have jumped around, this is inconsistent, especially when he jumps onto GM in (634). After all, if he was changing his playstyle because it made him look scummy, he should have stopped vote-hopping by that time. (If he was town, stopping scummy behavior would have made sense. Even if it cast suspicion on him, it would ultimately make the game clearer for the town. Scum thrive in confusion.)

Too much WIFOM. Scum has the same motivation to change their play to stop scummy behavior. The point is that I DON'T THINK it's bad play to utilize my votes to a large extent.

I

was

voting at the time and I was also actively trying to sort people out, so why you are claiming that I wasn't doing either? I didn't respond to your empty vote because I was waiting to see where you would go with it. Which was nowhere as it happened. If you want me to respond to something, the easiest way is to ask me.

I didn't see this tbh.
First, your vote was on Expresso, which is a RVS? If not, you did not provide reasoning for it so I failed to see it otherwise
Second, I saw that you were asking a lot of questions without coming to some sort of conclusion or read. I dropped the vote on you because I thought there was better things to do with my vote.

Question NPAU; what do you think of what was the goodmorning wagon?

I think it's mainly town driven. The reason it went up so fast was probably hephaestus's vote and a scum early bussing. Although hepha is null, if he is town then GM's wagon would make sense as a wagon on scum. The unvotes were meh. Could be town genuine concern of a fast wagon or scum thinking oh shit my buddy is at L-1. But I wouldn't care about it until we have a flip.

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This game gets my fullest attention tomorrow.

Why did NPAU put GM to L-1? His vote moves around so much for such faulty reasons. Ugh.

SO you don't think I should wagon my scum read? I already mentioned why she's scum.

I'm going to point out that your "case" on me appears to be "I don't like 29, wah."

Yet your first vote on me, which came after 29, was "a pressure vote."

Interesting.

I had a lot of points on my case. Not just 29.

NPAU you have like 50 scumreads.

Don't get pissy at me when I call you out for having too many.

I don't know where you are going with this because I had two.

I didn't see this tbh.
First, your vote was on Expresso, which is a RVS? If not, you did not provide reasoning for it so I failed to see it otherwise
Second, I saw that you were asking a lot of questions without coming to some sort of conclusion or read. I dropped the vote on you because I thought there was better things to do with my vote.

First, I did explain it, in post 81 and a bit more in 111. Are you actually reading my posts? Or are you just taking potshots at me?
Second, which of my questions are you referring to here? If you wanted to know what I thought about something, why didn't you just ask me?

1> Ok you did, still not a reason to retain that vote for 4 posts. Maybe I wasn't reading your post carefully but you started this conversation so no .. I was not taking potshots at you either.
2> Because. That's not my style. I'm not going to point out all the questions you made during and before post 143 because that's just dumb.
The point is I thought you were suspicious because you didn't draw any pressure/conclusive votes after interacting with the players. I know that was a small point to draw on so I didn't hesitate to unvote you.

~~~~~~~~

Ok. I'm probably the lynch for today, party because somehow this game doesn't make sense to me, partly because I don't really feel like making further efforts to defend myself or pushing my case.

RE: Ulcitron vs Shinobi: I do think Shinobi has a point and alignment speculating based on non-flips is bad play, but it doesn't necessarily lead to Ulcitron being scum. The point about Ulcitron flipping out isn't that strong. This is most likely TvT.

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1> Ok you did, still not a reason to retain that vote for 4 posts. Maybe I wasn't reading your post carefully but you started this conversation so no .. I was not taking potshots at you either.
2> Because. That's not my style. I'm not going to point out all the questions you made during and before post 143 because that's just dumb.
The point is I thought you were suspicious because you didn't draw any pressure/conclusive votes after interacting with the players. I know that was a small point to draw on so I didn't hesitate to unvote you.

1. What does the number of posts have to do with anything? I left the vote on because I hadn't decided where else to put it, and until he flaked he was my top scum read. The flaking mostly negated that though, and Scripten's posting set him back to null. But the point was that you claimed I

hadn't

provided reasoning, implying that you had checked, maybe hoping that those reading wouldn't bother to read and see you were misleading them?

2. Again you are trying to back down because you know you can't back up your accusation with fact. I'll make it easy for you: Give me one person you thought I didn't vote or offer a conclusion about.

1> Misleading them lol. If you don't think that's far-fetched then vote me. I'm tired of arguing with unreasonable people for fuck knows what reason.
2> You didn't vote or offer read about Zebulin and BBT despite the interactions. And I'm not even accusing you right now. Don't be over your head and think you're grabbing the spotlight for my scum list. I'll make it easy for you. If you aren't satisfied with my explanation, vote me. Don't follow me around like you actually care about what I'm saying

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Just hammer. Scum is GM for the reasons I already explained. Mala is pretty scummy too. Her game play is very different from another game I played with her in which she flipped town.