Mini Normal 1609: The Case Of Doctor Pepper (Game Over)

[The Rufflig]

Hello. I only recognize a few of you. I'm sure that will soon change.
VOTE: Rambler

[The Rufflig]

Vote:Rufflig

Obvscum

Obviously. I'm on a scumiserable streak. I've been rolling scum 80% of the time this year. The real trick will be to find my allies.

[The Rufflig]

I believe they received pre-game chat -- which means the scum did as well. I don't have a neighbor example, but I've been a mason with pre-game chat before. While it may be uncommon for a neighborhood not to have a scum in it, it does happen. I'm not inclined to lynch either one solely on the basis of being a neighbor.

[The Rufflig]

vote flubbernugget

He confessed he was scum in another game in a different thread.

Wouldn't that be discussing ongoing games, ergo modkill?

Flubbernugget appears to be alive in approximately 8 games, atm. I don't think anyone would be surprised if he was scum in at least one of them. Now, let's just drop this toxic topic.

[The Rufflig]

Him bringing up the vigilante constantly to kill someone regardless of alignment is odd to me. Granted, I understand how he could be annoyed by the fact I said I would hammer, but come on man. I said I was a village idiot, I'm just clowning around.

Nope. GreyICE is a serious player. Serious players do not like players who lurk to victory; lurkers earn a lot of disdain from serious players. Welllll, guess what other types of players they don't like? Trolls. The nature of a bboard game takes away our ability to size up one's body language and vocal tone. The only clues we have to use are the other players' written words. Trolls, rpers and masks take away those clues nearly as much as lurkers. Basically, in a serious players' eyes you are either scum or you are a liability to the town. Either way, you should be taken out as soon as possible (preferably by the night game). If everyone adopted your play style, this game would become very chance based (much like epicmafia). That isn't the type of game that most mafiascummers wish to play. This is why GreyICE wants to see your corpse.

[The Rufflig]

The ones of Wake's I linked were two of them. The only other player I directly observed was GreyICE.

You have two completed games with Flubbernugget, do you not?

[The Rufflig]

Erm, well 1 anyway.

[The Rufflig]

I think someone was interested in my thoughts on BlueBloodedToffee vs TelllTaleHeart.

TTH: "I haven't had any games with him, but I've read a couple games with Wake88 and I've seen his posts around the forum (particularly Mafia Discussion). To my understanding, he's a pretty divisive player.

Have you played with Wake88 before and how do you go about tackling a read like that?"

I'll admit that does look like a response to someone. However, what if we switch the reference around?

TTH: "I haven't had any games with Wake88, but I've read a couple games with him and I've seen his posts around the forum (particularly Mafia Discussion). To my understanding, he's a pretty divisive player.

Have you played with Wake88 before and how do you go about tackling a read like that?"

Now it lines up with what TellTaleHeart claims to have meant. While it looked odd, I'm not inclined to believe this was more than a bit of bad grammar on TTH's part.

[The Rufflig]

Very interesting. You knew I suspected you right? That's why you've come out all guns blazing on me. Opening vote? It's RVS, is there a reason you're so paranoid?

I believe TTH slipped to me in the neighbour thread. It looked like she was replying to somebody else with the way she started her message. I think she knows she slipped and is trying to get me out of the way.

Also, my RVS vote is now a serious vote.

BBT clearly cites a reason for his distrust of TTH prior to the game opening. BBT's vote on TTH can not be considered a rvs vote. The characterization of TTH being paranoid is libelous.

The more I read her message, the more I think it actually might not be a slip.

I still don't understand her coming for me straight away and letting everyone know there is a neighbourhood. That's just anti-town at best and scummy at worst.

BBT backpedals on the slip and pushes a different reason for TTH to be scum. He pushes this reason some more in post 45 as well as restating that his initial vote was rvs.

In post 115, BBT shows the "slip" post by TTH. However, BBT is no longer convinced that this post is scummy. So why bring it up again? Well, he starts bringing up the this was a scum slip argument again. He then waffles back and forth between it being a slip and not being a slip.

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

[The Rufflig]

Do you guys not see the comma and dependent clause after it?

Negative. These are two independent clauses joined by a coordinating conjunction.

I haven't had any games with him, but I've read a couple games with Wake88 and I've seen his posts around the forum (particularly Mafia Discussion).
I haven't had any games with him. I've read a couple games with Wake88 and I've seen his posts around the forum (particularly Mafia Discussion).

[The Rufflig]

In conclusion, I think there are two possibilities. Here they are ranked one through three.
1. Anatole is scum
2. Anatole is scum with telltaleheart (most likely)
3. Anatole is scum with bluebloodedtoffee (likely)

*frowns* I don't know Anatole Kuragin's meta, but even if I did you would find that I'm not very receptive to meta arguments. Possibilities #2 and #3 require a scum flip of TTH

or

BBT. You obviously do not feel that all of them are scum together. Therefore, some of your case against Anatole Kuragin is self evidently wrong from the start (coming to defense of TTH & relieving pressure off BBT, both can not be correct). In my opinion, you've failed to make a case on Anatole Kuragin that stands on its own. Why the push on Anatole Kuragin?

[The Rufflig]

1. The vote flip on me by BBT is the most shameful scum tells this game. This guy is literally hopping votes for whoever is the greatest threat to him. First it was TTH, then Wake, and now me? How is this piss not scum motivated?
He's more interested in protecting himself than playing for town, and uses the vote button way more care free than I would choose to like.

*still frowning*
Csareo, I'd hardly call you and Wake88 the biggest threats to BlueBloodedToffee. Wake88 has not voted for BBT. Wake88 believes that TellTaleHeart is more likely to be scum than BBT. You were also on the TTH is more likely to be scum than BBT until just now. Your reason for switching from TTH to BBT was that Dougal121, Boonskies and myself had made convincing cases. BBT has not voted any of the three players who have made a case on him.

[The Rufflig]

UNVOTE:

[The Rufflig]

Guys!! Guys!! I know where the next wagon's going!!

To Morrow?

[The Rufflig]

but what's more alarming is BBT voting everyone who scum reads him, or provides a threat.

Lets go over his voting record then, because I don't see what you are seeing.

In post #8, BBT votes TTH.
(BlueBloodedToffee (0): )
TTH hasn't posted yet. It is possible that BBT is making a pre-emptive strike.

In post #109 BBT votes Anatole Kuragin.
(BlueBloodedToffee (1): TellTaleHeart)
Anatole voted for BBT in post #37 (BlueBloodedToffee (3): TellTaleHeart, GreyICE, Anatole Kuragin). AK explored the possibility that there was scum in the neighborhood. However, he unvoted BBT in post #65. In post #75, AK mentions that he is ok with lynching either TTH or BBT. This is the last thing AK says about BBT before BBT votes AK. AK doesn't appear to be scum reading BBT. AK is simply ok with lynching the neighbors and AK isn't pushing it. AK doesn't appear to be much of a threat, imo.

In post #124 BBT returns his vote to TTH.
(BlueBloodedToffee (2): TellTaleHeart, Dougal121)
TTH hasn't made a post since #62 at this point. You could argue ongoing threat, I suppose. There are only 2 players on BBT though. BBT isn't in serious danger, yet. Everyone is trying to sort the exchange out between the two of them.

In post #155 BBT votes scrambles
(BlueBloodedToffee (2): TellTaleHeart, Dougal121)
scrambles has never mentioned or voted BBT.

In post #261 BBT votes Wake88
(BlueBloodedToffee (4): TellTaleHeart, Dougal121, The Rufflig, Flubbernugget)
Wake88 has mentioned wanting to hyper lynch both BBT and TTH until one of them flips scum. He later refines this down to a vote on TTH (post #118). While Wake88 later explores the possibility of both BBT and TTH being scum together, there is no indication of wanting to lynch BBT first. In post #260, Wake88 voted Anatole Kuragin.

In post #387 BBT votes Csareo
(BlueBloodedToffee (5): TellTaleHeart, Dougal121, The Rufflig, Flubbernugget, Csareo)
I'll admit this vote looks like it was prompted by Csareo's vote on BBT (post #383). However, BBT does have valid grounds for making this vote.

VOTE: Csareo

[The Rufflig]

Not sure I get the case on me. Especially with the mountain of scumminess on BBT.
It's actually to the point of frustrating.

I'm not entirely sure why you voted for TTH in post #195, but I suspect it was the grammar/scum slip issue. You will, therefore, not be surprised to learn that reason can be applied to you as well. BBT and scrambles apparently think that you scum slipped by saying "when" instead of "if". Me? My reasons are a bit different.

I'm going to pick it up from #195. In your next post (#294), you reveal that you considered voting BBT, but decided on TTH instead as BBT had too many votes. Post #294, in general, signals that this is a policy vote for the neighbors rather than anything else. That policy vote sentiment is echoed in later posts. So far, no problems.

Post #350: this is the Anatole + BBT + TTH case. I've touched on it before, but I'd like to add a bit more.
"That was literally the scummiest thing I've seen. I'm almost certain it was forged, or details were ommited. The formatting was off, as if someone editted it.
Anyone notice that?" No, I didn't. However, that is grade A, smoking gun evidence (if true). That is not the sort of thing that one just glosses over. If you actually believed it, then I think it would have triggered a vote on BBT. At the very least, you would have pointed out where you think the problem lay. Anyway, statements like that push your view on BBT away from policy lynch.

Post #380. You thought 3 other players were convincing about BBT's guilt, but you were worried about actually lynching BBT. This should not be a concern, if you believe that BBT is scum. You seem more worried about what effect your vote on BBT might have on yourself.

Post #381

The more I think about it, the less I am convinced he is a strong scum read.

BBT and TTH on the other hand, are

, so that's why I'm unvoting.

A flip from either BBT and TTH would reveal a lot as well.

No! You can't go back to policy lynch with a snap of the fingers. Not after what you've already said. Just entertaining this thought once more shows a lack of conviction in your read on BBT. You've said BBT is your scum read. You've stated that BBT and TTH are not scum together. You can not lump TTH in with BBT again! NO!!!

Past here, we get into my more recent posts. Your case on BBT does not hold up. Thus, it appears that you aren't actually analyzing BBT. It appears that you are just making things up to justify your vote on BBT so you can deny having a "me too!" vote on him.

[The Rufflig]

Your case on me is weak. Even ruffles case is weak.
It was pretty much "You're scum because you voted X"

Then you haven't been reading my posts. Here is what you've said most recently about BBT:

Oppurtunistic vote jumping, lack of scum hunting, and the fact that he is more focused on removing threats to himself than hunting scum, is why I'm voting him.

1) Opportunistic vote jumping.

Ok, let's go over his voting record again.

In post #8, BBT votes TTH.
TellTaleHeart (1): BlueBloodedToffee

In post #109 BBT votes Anatole Kuragin.
Anatole Kuragin (2): GreyICE, BlueBloodedToffee

In post #124 BBT returns his vote to TTH.
TellTaleHeart (2): Wake88, BlueBloodedToffee

In post #155 BBT votes scrambles
scrambles (1): BlueBloodedToffee

In post #261 BBT votes Wake88
Wake88 (2): Rambler, BlueBloodedToffee

In post #387 BBT votes Csareo
Csareo (1): BlueBloodedToffee

Which of these are opportunistic and why?

2) Lack of scum hunting.

This is a judgement call obviously. You needn't try to prove a negative to me.

3) more focused on removing threats to himself than hunting scum

I've tried to engage you on point 3 (no matter how you've stated it) multiple times. I've shown why I do not think this point is true. You keep repeating this point without giving any explanation as to why you believe it to be true. The only conclusion I can draw is that you know that this point is completely made up. Do you have any reason for continually repeating this point?

Bonus points:

That was literally the scummiest thing I've seen. I'm almost certain it was forged, or details were ommited. The formatting was off, as if someone editted it.

Can you back this statement up in any manner?

[The Rufflig]

@Boonskiies: Why didn't you just vote BBT instead of announcing an intent to vote? You seemed quite sure that he was scum.

I don't like this, but meh. I was scum reading Csareo up until his most recent post.

You know, I don't recall you ever mentioning that you were scum reading Csareo. For that matter, I don't recall you mentioning him at all prior to this. If you had a scum read on Csareo, why didn't you tell us or vote him or poke at him?

Anatole Kuragin could be scum? Weren't you scum reading AK earlier? Let me dig it up:

Anatole/BBT I can see as a scum team IF Wake ends up being town.

If Wake is scum, I find it hard to believe Anatole would be putting up such a fight against Wake. I do have a scum read on Anatole, but it also seems like playstyle to me. Wake is one of those characters that can really get someone worked up, and that's the only thing keeping me from voting Anatole right now other than the presence of BBT.

Afterwards, he sees Anatole vs Wake happening and picks a side. He's directly involved with the two, but he is staying under the radar. This makes me have a potential feeling that BBT is trying for a mislynch on either one of them leading into a second mislynch on the other. I've actually played with a scum BBT before, and he's actually playing quite similar. He started lurking when under pressure last time, though.

So to summarize: AK can be scum if Wake88 is town. If Wake is scum, then AK is not scum with him. You have a scum read on AK. BBT is trying to mislynch both AK and Wake88. I am concerned that you are assuming that AK and Wake88 are both town when you apply a case to BBT, but that you assume they are not both town when you are not talking about BBT.

[The Rufflig]

Yes, but I wasn't trying to town read you in that game. I had you down as *ahem* village idiot - do not nk.

[The Rufflig]

@Boonskiies: What do you think it looks like to us when you claim a scum read on x and then make a scenario where x is town? Or vice-versa? It looks like you don't actually have a read on x and that you are lying to us about your reads. It also looks like you aren't actually trying to separate the scum from the townies. Unfortunately, I

have

played with you before so I'm not convinced this is what is actually happening, but it strikes me as wrong.

I also have a question for you related to Csareo. Does Csareo make it a habit to do a summary case on a player and then ignore/refuse requests to actually explain what he is talking about? What do you think about what Csareo has said about BBT?

[The Rufflig]

BBT is flip flopping onto anyone who thinks he could be scum.

Cool. Would you explain that to me? Csareo has said the same thing, but has ignored my attempts to get him to explain it. I've explained why I do not think this statement is true in posts #415, #458 and #478.

Secondly, could you explain why you are neutral on TTH?

[The Rufflig]

@Ruffling- Can you explain the case on me a little more? All I could see was a summary of my actions and vote history.

You know, I've not gone over

your

vote history. Most recently, what I've been showing is that your scum read on BBT is fabricated.

[The Rufflig]

I'm neutral on TTH because she isn't very prominent on the thread, other than the neighboring debacle. Like I said before, It's not necessarily the neighbor thing that is making me have a scum read on BBT, it's a combination of everything.

In what freaking universe do you think a mod puts two scum together in a neighborhood without any townies?

[The Rufflig]

Rufflig, please provide some updated reads.

TellTaleHeart: likely town

Wake88: leaning town -- if there turns out to be scum in the nieghborhood then Wake88 is town. Take a look at Wake88's analysis of Boonskiies right near the end. Boonskiies is not in the neighborhood with TTH. I don't believe that Wake88 would have forgotten who was in the neighborhood if he was allied with a scum buddy in there.

massive: likely town

BlueBloodedToffee: leaning town

---

Csareo: likely scum

Boonskiies: leaning scum

Anatole Kuragin: candidate for scum - I need to question him about some of his most recent posts.

I've not been able to get a read on the rest, yet.

[The Rufflig]

Weren't you one of the ones calling people scummy for not reading every post? There's the possibility they aren't really in a neighborhood, and just are scum with daytalk pulling an elaborate ruse. It doesn't make sense at all for two scum to be in a neighborhood because it's the same thing as just giving them daytalk.

I didn't even say that I thought they were both scum in that post. Please...actually read posts.

No, I wasn't one of the ones calling people scummy for not reading every post. You've seen the amount of attention that the BBT and TTH have received over the neighbors claim. If one of them gets lynched and does not flip neighbor, the other one gets lynched as well. At least one of them is likely to draw an investigation to boot. Do you really think that this is an elaborate ruse? The most likely scenario is that at least one of them is town. This is why I'm questioning you for being neutral on TTH while scum reading BBT.

[The Rufflig]

I'd probably vote

csareo

over bbt,

he clearly is not being a helpful and productive townie, but I would make the same case for you[Csareo], boonskies, rambler, and a few others and I don't think you're scum[Csareo]

Csareo

and Boonskies are pretty much exhibiting the same cognitive dissonance.

I already said I'm not scumreading

Csareo

though.

@Anatole Kuragin:

Could you explain your stance changes on Csareo?

[The Rufflig]

@Boonskiies: That is insane. You are actually saying that TTH is as likely to be scum with BBT as not.

[The Rufflig]

There are only 4 scenarios to consider Boonskiies

1) BBT and TTH are both town and are neighbors together
2) BBT is town and TTH is scum and they are neighbors together
3) BBT is scum and TTH is town and they are neighbors together
4) BBT and TTH are both scum and are not neighbors

Your scum read is on BBT. Scenarios 1 and 2 are no longer possible. Between scenarios 3 and 4, you cannot make up your mind!

[The Rufflig]

Just waiting for ruffling to hop in and defend you.

I'm afraid that I'm going to disappoint you. Most of what you have said does not directly contradict what has happened in the game; so, BlueBloodedToffee gets first crack at refuting your arguments. There is one thing that I am going to correct.

Look what he said a couple of posts before he voted for me...

BBT voted for you in post #387 (iso BBT #57). What he said previously was in post #160 (iso BBT #22). There is a much larger gap here than what you've stated.

Thank you for the case.

[The Rufflig]

@TTH: It seems that you're not sure that BBT is scum and you don't appear to really find anyone else suspicious. Is that correct?

---

Hmm, looks like BBT isn't going to touch the case on him. I guess it's fair game now.

[The Rufflig]

He actually voted TTH before this reaction, but it could of been motivated by two things (from a scum mindset)

Hold it! This argument relies on TTH being town. Ok, go on.

Partly why I thought he forged the PT

Stop! This requires TTH to be scum. There is no way a town TTH would let BBT get away with making things up about what is in a QT. You really can't have TTH be both town and scum in the same case against BBT. Not only is it nonsensical, but it also shows that you do not have an actual read on TTH.

Look, TTH posts once after the unvote and we have this

I think she is town

The unvote is post #140. The "I think she is town" is post #224. TTH posts 5 times between the two. That being said, BBT's waffling on TTH did make me uneasy. Waffling isn't strictly a scum trait, though. We have too many wafflers in this game for them all to be scum *sigh*.

BBT's lack of effective scum hunting while under pressure doesn't really bother me. I have seen a town player get so bogged down (day 1) in responses and defending himself that he could not actually scum hunt before.

[The Rufflig]

Rufflig, you said you had some questions for me about my posts - was it just my posts about Csareo or did you have other questions?

Well, the back and forth on Csareo was one of the main things that I was curious about. I'll admit your answer did not help me. I was rather hoping to get some insight into how you were approaching your reads or the game or something. So, let me try again. Other than Jagged Alliance, who are you currently scum reading?

[The Rufflig]

@Jagged Alliance: Anyone besides Flubber that you don't like? Could you be more specific about who you don't like on the Csareo wagon? Do you feel Csareo's wagon sprang up to try and save BBT? What about BBT and his wagon?

[The Rufflig]

What would most help me read you all right now is a statement to the effect of "Csareo is working toward a scum win condition in (such a way)." Assume nothing. Explain it to me like you would to explain it to a toddler, because that's the level I'm feeling at about now.

I cannot make a case in that manner. If you'd like a hint as to what other reasons I have for not liking Csareo, then I can help you. Go through Csareo's ISO. Make a note of who he is town reading (no one). Also make a note of who he is scum reading or taking shots at (almost everyone). Csareo is not trying to figure out who is scum and who is town; he is trying to keep all of his lynch options open.

[The Rufflig]

Give final reads, too.

That's something pro-Town you could do.

Would you do me a favor, Wake88? Pressure Csareo into making a proper reads list, too. Csareo's BBT and x are scum and everyone else is null/town should not be allowed to stand as a reads list.

[The Rufflig]

Oh, nevermind. I see he's given a list. That's what I get for jumping to the end of the thread to see why there's nearly a dozen new pages on a Sunday.

[The Rufflig]

Can we lynch BBT pls. And then put the spotlight on AK?

Lynch BBT? No thanks. However, I'm up for shining some light on Anatole Kuragin. I'd love to hear what you have to say on the subject.

[The Rufflig]

Why can't you put pressure on Csareo or me yourself? What do YOU have to say on the subject?

When I brought up Csareo's lack of town reads (post #794), he responded thus:

Let's get something straight.
The ONLY two people I would consider lynching today are BBT and maybe massive.
I am null reading/town reading everyone else.
I am suspicious of a few people reacting to BBT's wagon, but they're null until there is an actual flip.

Wake88 had shown he will put Csareo at L-1. Wake88 is able to put more pressure on Csareo for an answer than I can.

As for pressuring you myself,

Rufflig, you said you had some questions for me about my posts - was it just my posts about Csareo or did you have other questions?

Well, the back and forth on Csareo was one of the main things that I was curious about. I'll admit your answer did not help me. I was rather hoping to get some insight into how you were approaching your reads or the game or something. So, let me try again. Other than Jagged Alliance, who are you currently scum reading?

I already had an outstanding question out for you. I'm sure you simply missed it during the post explosion over the weekend. However, I wasn't really getting anywhere with my read on you, so I asked for a little help.

[The Rufflig]

Why can't you put pressure on Csareo or me yourself? What do YOU have to say on the subject?

I already had an outstanding question out for you. I'm sure you simply missed it during the post explosion over the weekend. However, I wasn't really getting anywhere with my read on you, so I asked for a little help.

Right, I answered the question about my reads elsewhere without directly acknowledging this post - I find your playing weird in the same way that Flubber's do - asking for pressure or implying there is something I'm not being upfront about despite me answering any question given. I don't know if that makes you scummy or not. I think I'm going to make a case on Boon when I have some more time later.

I implied nothing of the sort! You asked why I couldn't pressure you myself and what I had to say on the subject. My response was that I was indeed trying to put a little pressure on you and that I did in fact have a post for you at the time that I asked Flubbernugget for his thoughts. Yes, you have since answered the question, but that wasn't the point. The point was that I was indeed trying to shine some light onto you myself and not simply trying to get Flubbernugget to do the work for me.

[The Rufflig]

It has also became clear that the same players start becoming active whenever he begins to be tunneled again (massive, greencrayons, ruffles)

There is a very simple reason for this and it has nothing to do with BBT's alignment. I'll give you an example of this principle at work.

GreyICE's LaL push on AK. We know this wasn't true. There was push back on GreyICE for making the claim and on BBT for sheeping the vote. When Csareo made bad cases against BBT, the push back came into play against him. In theory, everyone who pushes GreyICE/JA for making a bad case and pushes BBT for following a bad case should also have some concerns about Csareo. In practice, it doesn't happen.

@Doogal121 & Flubbernugget:

Could you tell me why this hasn't happened in your case?

[The Rufflig]

Out of curiosity, Rufflig (sorry I've been mistaking it as Ruffling): how in the world did you come to that single line of Post 801 -- a sentence from a wall post that's 400 posts in the past?

Csareo reposted it in #1131. I went back and reread what he wrote about BBT

again

.

[The Rufflig]

Because wake has a theory that they're both scum faking to be neighbors.

That theory is impossible, because this is a Normal game, and that means that everyone who has an access to a neighborhood will flip "Neighbor", whether the person is scum or town.

The sad part is that we've had this discussion with all of these exact same points before and the topic still keeps coming up. *sigh*

[The Rufflig]

For the longest time you fought against sharing the mod's post in your supposed PT. You also say that after 1,200 posts not one more thing has been said in your 2-player Neighborhood. As I predicted, you and TTH came out of the gate as "Neighbors" pointing fingers at each other, yet rather quickly "made up" and passed it over, providing some sort of cover to make everyone believe you're Neighbors. And now you flat-out refuse to provide a screenshot of the PT, even though DP said Neighborhood was fair game and refused to clarify that Scum can't fabricate their PT posts.

Focus, Wake88. Quoting the mod verbatim is a modkillable offense is most games. BBT has been steadfast in his refusal to quote the mod without permission. The mod's silence on that question is what finally led to BBT quoting it. The neighbors do not have day talk, they can only speak at night. Their PT is locked. They cannot make new posts in their PT no matter how many posts we generate during day 1. Screenshots is yet another common modkillable offense. How can you blame BBT for wanting permission from the mod, first?

If you insist on believing BBT and TTH are faking the whole thing, why not pick on TTH for awhile?

[The Rufflig]

Well, that pretty much kills the chance of a Csareo lynch for today.

UNVOTE: Csareo

I'm willing to vote Doogal121 or Jagged Appliance. I'm town reading Green Crayons. I'm luke warm on Boonskiies.

[The Rufflig]

Pass.

[The Rufflig]

@Ruffig when was the Csareo wagon officially dead to you?

When Fake God town read Csareo, the wagon was officially dead. At that point the numbers no longer worked. Even if Wake88 returned to the Csareo wagon, that would only put Csareo at L-2. At least 1 additional player would have had to switch from the BBT wagon in order to make a compromise deadline lynch feasible. The odds of that occurring were minuscule.

[The Rufflig]

Unfortunately, Fake God, that does appear to be Boonskiies play style.

[The Rufflig]

I said it earlier, but I've had a prior game with Boonskiies recently. He was town and I was scum. I would never have nk'd him in that game.

[The Rufflig]

Anyway, Fake God:

Considering the player I could see a pr flip happening. Like, I can see him trying to earn that troll reputation over forwarding the wincon, but was that the only anti-pr tell on him?

Flubbernugget was in that game too (town). You're just going to have to treat Boonskiies as an honorary member of the screaming death clan.

[The Rufflig]

I was not town reading Boonskiies. I do not claim to be able to read his alignment with any certainty. The swiftness of Boonskiies' wagon reaching L-1 with only 1 vote moving from BBT raises a lot of troubling questions.

[The Rufflig]

I was not town reading Boonskiies. I do not claim to be able to read his alignment with any certainty. The swiftness of Boonskiies' wagon reaching L-1 with only 1 vote moving from BBT raises a lot of troubling questions.

For a guy claiming to not townread Boons, you are going at great lengths to defend Boons.

Yes, I suppose I am. However, I couldn't let your argument against Boonskiies stand uncontested. Boonskiies is aptly self-described as a troll; you weren't taking that into account. I really haven't touched Massive and Jagged Appliances' cases.

[The Rufflig]

I refuse to lynch BBT, today.

[The Rufflig]

Back on track then?

VOTE: Jagged Appliance

[The Rufflig]

I don't know if it's the right thing to do, but I'll go ahead and claim since I want input from FakeGod and Rufflig.

I'm a vengeful townie. In the event of my lynch, I get a vigilante kill. Should you all choose to lynch me, I would probably kill massive but I might also think about a shot at Jagged Appliance or Anatole.

I might also shoot Csareo if for no other reason than to cut down on the clutter in the thread and get rid of a distracting noise source.

I do not attempt to influence kills made by townies. As far as I'm concerned such choice should be wholly yours - I don't like such choices to possibly be influenced by scum.

This was not the right time to bring it up. By bringing it up now you place a choice on the town. Either to lynch you and hope for the best with the kill or to not lynch you and risk losing the ability to a nk. Currently, I'd rather have you in the game.

[The Rufflig]

PEdit - No, I don't know what you mean FG

Allow me. Let us say there are 5 players left and only 1 of them is scum. Ordinarily, the town has two chances left to lynch the remaining scum.

One of the townies says, "I'm vengeful. Lynch me!" and gets lynched. The vengeful townie shoots another townie. 5 players - 1 lynched townie - 1 vengeful'd townie - 1 nk'd townie = 1 townie + 1 scum. Game over - town loses. The town gave up 1 chance to lynch scum for a vengeful kill. You can run through the numbers with a full game as a homework assignment.

[The Rufflig]

I'd say Green Canyon is a much better shot, if you're going for style.

massive is probably your most sensible shot though.

No!

Would you care to explain why you would like to see either of them shot?

[The Rufflig]

So, anything happen in the last 20 odd pages? Nope, not really. Same old arguments: check. Deadlocked on the wagons again. Wonderful.

VOTE: Anatole Kuragin

[The Rufflig]

Yes, it's a hammer.

VOTE: Jagged Appliance

[The Rufflig]

3 claimed PR's and scum look elsewhere.

That certainly is interesting.

It was fairly obvious who your partner was. The only two players who had not voted for you or been voted by you were massive and Green Crayons. From there it was a moderate exercise in reading isos. Fake God and I both figured it out yesterday (see post 2119). Still, it seemed like a pretty stupid shot for the scum to make.
---

Flubber, Doogal, and Boons were on both town wagons

You were also on both wagons.
BlueBloodedToffee's wagon reached its peak in post #1778 for the second time.

1778) FakeGod votes BlueBloodedToffee

BlueBloodedToffee

(6): Flubbernugget, Csareo, Boonskiies, Doogal121, Wake88, FakeGod
Boonskiies (5):

BlueBloodedToffee

, massive,

Jagged Appliance

, TellTaleHeart,

Green Crayons

Not Voting: The Rufflig, Anatole Kuragin

In spite of Fake God blaming Wake88 for BBT claiming mason, it was Fake God's vote here that led to it. If you want to split hairs, Fake God chose to trust Csareo's scum read on BBT.

[The Rufflig]

Rufflig, I agree that GC kill was dumb, but can you explain why?

Because the scum made BlueBloodedToffee into a confirmed townie that they cannot kill. Any protective role player worth his salt will be protecting BBT from now on (if he wasn't already). The controversy over BBT and the ability of the scum to lynch BBT vanishes completely.

---

If you would, FakeGod, please show me (actually show me) how it was very apparent who the 2nd Mason was.

I'll do it.

Vote Count as of post #1038
BlueBloodedToffee (6): TellTaleHeart, Flubbernugget, Csareo, Boonskiies, Doogal121, Wake88

Vote count as of post #1778
BlueBloodedToffee (6): Flubbernugget, Csareo, Boonskiies, Doogal121, Wake88, FakeGod

All of those players voting for BBT while he was at L-1 were certainly not a mason with BBT. BBT's partner would not risk BBT getting lynched.

That leaves us with 5 players who could have been masons with BBT: Jagged Appliance, Green Crayons, massive, Anatole Kuragin, The Rufflig

BBT lists Jagged Appliance and Anatole Kuragin as scum at some point (although he changes his mind on JA).

TellTaleHeart already showed that I initially thought BBT was scum early on (I changed my mind).

That leaves Green Crayons and massive as the only two players who could be masons with BBT. At this point, I had to read all 3 of them in ISO. I read BBT to see how he treated GC and massive. I read massive and GC to see how they treated BBT. I couldn't be 100% sure that it was GC and not massive, but there were hints pointing to it such as this one:

At any rate, because BBT is so incredibly town it hurts,

and what TTH already posted.

[The Rufflig]

Do you reckon Rufflig was trying to make himself seem as something he wasn't?

I didn't comment on being a mason or not being a mason. I didn't claim anything at all. I was not going to narrow down the list of possible mason partners for the scum.

Particularly TTH, FakeGod, Rufflig, Anatole, and Flubbernugget. Am very interested in hearing more from Titus. The others who I'm forgetting simply aren't contributing enough to be noteworthy.

I don't recall you putting up a spirited objection to lynching Jagged Appliance, Wake88. I went back and looked. I found "Jagged's not my ideal lynched for today." and "I'll only lynch one of BBT, TTH, or FG today.". Although earlier in the day, you obviously had some suspicions of JA. By his own admission, JA had trouble getting into the game. So there wasn't a whole lot for me to try and get a good alignment read off of him. The scum hunting just wasn't there. JA looked a lot like a scum who was coasting.

Meanwhile, you were advocating the lynch of a claimed mason who had a few hundred posts available to help determine alignment (and viability of the claim). Why pray tell, should I have been listening to you about JA with no reasoning?

[The Rufflig]

@Titus: What's with the massive vote? Did you find something in your vca?

[The Rufflig]

@Boonskiies: A "No result" indicates being roleblocked.

Tracker:

Some moderators return

no result

when the Tracker's target does not go anywhere at Night; this is indistinguishable from the message that would be received if the Tracker was

Roleblocked

.

However, this is not

Normal

and tends to be seen in role madness games as a means of introducing more confusion.

Feel free to double check with the mod as DP has some interesting quirks.

[The Rufflig]

@TheRufflig are you still scum reading the Csareo/Titus slot?

Yes, I am. Titus' massive vote sucked. It was based solely on setup speculation. Even worse, Titus' setup speculation was not based on what has been claimed about the setup thus far. FakeGod even spelled out the claims for Titus when Titus entered the game (post #2295). It is obvious that Titus has not read the game. Therefore, I am not expecting much of anything from Titus' vca except more sloppy work. Perhaps I'll be pleasantly surprised, but I doubt it.

Unfortunately, I still have the same problem as yesterday. JA was against a Csareo lynch while GC was for it. Net result: no change. There aren't enough players willing to vote for Titus.

[The Rufflig]

I have stated my reasons Wake, only a few posts ago.

This is a normal game. Bastard Masons are not possible.

Links

really

help.

I do not have the luxury of time.

No problem.

Link: Normal Game

Roles which are explicitly Non-Normal include:

Non-Sane Cop, Blank Vig, Non-Sane or Quack Doctor, Janitor, Survivor, Lyncher, Cultist, Jester,

Mafia Mason

, Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, Redirector, Framer.

[The Rufflig]

@Rufflig, you are right. I haven't read the entire game. Totally ceding that point.

The last large theme I subbed into which was hosted by knight errant, my vca found the sk and a scum.
When my vca is done, it's done right. I have more of a record so I see why you are shitting yourself here. Problem is I have had a hell of a night and got little done.

VOTE: Rufflig

I'm not worried; I'm town. Our paths have crossed a couple times before. I was not impressed either time. You probably do have an awesome game out there where you were right. Unfortunately for you, that doesn't matter. It is your play here that counts. Anyway, since you did put your vote on me, I'd like you to explain why.

---

I don't understand why this is bad play over scummy play.

Titus was fed the setup claims day 1. Do you remember what he said about it? Absolutely nothing; Titus wouldn't even need to read the thread to do setup speculation. He had no trouble with the setup yesterday. So what changed? Titus was called on his massive vote and had to come up with a reason. The reason he gave was crap and showed absolutely no thought - if you want to be kind, you could state that Titus was confused about the setup. Seriously, Boonskiies entire post was "massive: no result". How the heck does one misinterpret that in the manner that Titus is claiming? You'd think that Titus had never seen a pr claim a result at the beginning of the day before.

Titus was corrected on the setup. That should have ended the the incident except Titus switched his vote to Boonskiies and just claims it was a simple mistake. Well, no. There is a large difference in stating that a cop cannot exist in this setup and stating that a tracker cannot exist. This is also crap. Titus can't state that he believes Boonskiies is scum for failing to come up with a result when Titus is pushing forth the idea that there is a mafia roleblocker in the game. All Titus has left to explain his votes is the original setup claims that he was spoon fed yesterday. (You'll notice how quickly he dropped his Boonskiies vote).

[The Rufflig]

Can these people give your top 3 scumreads at the moment?

Yup. Titus is #1 on my list. I currently have you as #2 (FakeGod) and I'll tell you why below. #3 is more of an AK/ Doogal121/ Flubbernugget sort of thing. I need to start trying to sort them out.

---

This is still bothering me, FakeGod:

Flubber or Dougal could be a good shot.

^FakeGod, what do you think about this?

I'd say Green Canyon is a much better shot, if you're going for style.

massive is probably your most sensible shot though.

1) While you did mention being suspicious of massive earlier in the day, I don't recall you being suspicious of Green Crayons.

2) TTH was the second largest wagon at the time. It is not unreasonable to assume that with less than 24 hours to go before deadline that it might have gotten compromise lynch support. In fact, the wagon did gain a couple more votes before collapsing (after the mod lock suspending the deadline).

I certainly can envision a scenario where you are scum and setting TTH up to kill a mason. Now that I don't have to tiptoe around this topic, I want you to defend this post of yours.

[The Rufflig]

VOTE: FakeGod

[The Rufflig]

Now I have to rethink Titus.

[The Rufflig]

Look at the way he posted 2917, and 2921.

He suddenly expresses his scumread on me out of nowhere, then proceeds to pull out a random post I made, and follows up with a vote.

That isn't town.

It's also not what happened.

My suspicions of you started in 2119 because of your 2096. Granted, I didn't press it hard. I couldn't - not without exposing a mason. In 2660, I called you on your 2651 when you conveniently left your name off the list of players who had both been on the BBT and JA wagons. In that same post I assert that you had figured out who the undisclosed mason was the day before - a point which you happily confirmed in 2674.

As for what you think about the timing - it is irrelevant. I'll answer it anyway. I waited until after everyone had checked in and had an ample opportunity to speak their mind. Your prompting for scum reads was coincidental; I had planned to bring it up that night anyhow.

Your defense for knowingly trying to aim a venge kill at a mason is "It was a joke"! Somehow you expected that to satisfy anyone? HA!

[The Rufflig]

Your defense for knowingly trying to aim a venge kill at a mason

This is

wrong

.

I am the biggest proponent of not using TTH's ability.

How can you possibly accuse of me trying to direct a venge kill,

when I've been yelling at people to not lynch TTH

?

You know damn well that with less than 24 hours left in the day that a TTH lynch was still a possibility. Let me repeat, TTH gained 2 more votes as the deadline loomed closer. If the mod hadn't stepped in there would have been a real possibility of a TTH lynch no matter how loud you shouted. This is how the wagons looked at the time of the lock:

Jagged Appliance (6): FakeGod, The Rufflig, Boonskiies, Flubbernugget, Doogal121, BlueBloodedToffee
TellTaleHeart (5): Green Crayons, Jagged Appliance, Wake88, TellTaleHeart, Csareo
Boonskiies (1): massive

Not Voting: Anatole Kuragin

massive and AK were both town reading JA. Tell me it is my imagination that TTH couldn't have been lynched because you were shouting so much against it.

---

Btw, your "plan" for the town to win requires that you be completely correct on all your town reads (TTH, Wake88, BBT and Titus). Are you prepared to explain why the town should trust your reads on these players? Assuming you manage to get me lynched, your credibility in reading players will come sharply into question - pushing townies twice into being lynched does that.

[The Rufflig]

You have no case.

Your reasons are weak, and you overplayed your hand.

And you will pay for it with your life.

My reasons are better than yours. You claim that someone making a case now outside a pool of players that you have decided on means that the person making the case must be scum. Pshaw! You are saying that it is literally impossible for a townie to make a case on anyone except the players that you decide it is ok for a case to be made on. Go ahead and prove that one. Hell, if you get me lynched then you will have proven it wrong yourself.

[The Rufflig]

Have you considered that if I really did wanted to lynch TTH and wanted to influence her shot,

that I could have easily done it?

TTH was townreading me above anyone else at the time of that VC.

It would have been trivial for me to do so,

yet I had not, and

I'm never going to advocate TTH lynch in this game.

Exactly. It certainly looked like you tried.

[The Rufflig]

Let me show you how stupid your case against me is:

With GC flip confirming BBT as town, I only have to find one town out of Doogal121, Flubbernugget, Titus, Anatole Kuragin, FakeGod, and Boons in order to guarantee town auto-win.

Scum absolutely need to get a mislynch outside that pool if they want to have more than a ghost of a chance at winning this.

I've been suppressing any possible lynches on any of my townreads majority of the day, and therefore, only target left is me.

FakeGod's sudden scumread on me only came after several people have expressed that they might be considering my lynch today. With the possible lynchpool being narrowed down, FakeGod decided to gamble everything and attempt to lynch me, once he saw that he might have enough town support to pull it off.

There. Absolute proof that you are scum using your own argument.

[The Rufflig]

Ok, I've skimmed over this mess of posts that all of you feel required to make while I'm at work. I'll see about actually talking about some of it eventually. Maybe. Still not going to vote for TTH.

---

@Doogal121: Why did you change your mind on FakeGod? You were town reading him, yesterday. Today, when asked, you said that you could see FakeGod's play as scummy (though you liked his play better than GC's). Later, you expressed FakeGod could be scum

if

TTH flips scum. Even later today, you have a full on scum read of FakeGod. I'm missing some of the transitions here.

She was hard sheeping Fakegod toward the end, especially with the “If you say JA is scum, then I’ll vote”. It’s almost like a new scum player begging for help from an experienced scum buddy.

I don't think these two things go together. If a scum TTH was sheeping FakeGod, wouldn't that imply that FakeGod is town? Scum generally don't sheep scum; I believe scum usually sheep a townie to try and get on a townie's good side.

[The Rufflig]

I guess I could ask if you have any scumreads outside of FakeGod. Do you?

FakeGod & Titus are my biggest scum reads. Other than that, I'm pretty confident there is scum in Doogal121, Anatole Kuragin and Flubbernugget.

---

"Who's"

Is that gramatically correct? It's really bothering me that I don't know.

Who's is a contraction of who is. So your question becomes "Who is lynch lead would you rather follow and why?". This is not grammatically correct. You needed to use the possessive "Whose".

---

@Boonskiies: Make a case on massive. Otherwise, it isn't happening.

I feel massive is voting me for personal reasons mixed with a possibility of knowing I'm an easy mislynch. Everything that he is accusing me of for being scum is extremely fluffy and isn't alignment reactive. He is stating things in a different way than I said, like the neighbors being both scum thing. If you go through my ISO you will see me talk about MANY hypothetics, and if you check other games of mine, I over look into hypothetics.

This doesn't cut it. You spend a good portion of this post defending yourself.

---

@FakeGod: There is a reason why massive doesn't show up as a player to be lynched. No one has made a case on him or done more than throw out a couple feelers to test the waters for a massive lynch. Have you got a reason better than:

massive is a person who joined the Csareo wagon late.

POE would be fine, but you've yet to establish such a case. Your faith that you are correct in your town reads is not sufficient for me to want to lynch your list of players.

[The Rufflig]

@Boonskiies: Since you don't want to make a massive case, would you mind giving me the highlights of your case against me that you lost when your wall post failed to appear?

[The Rufflig]

Clever.

Because Boons is voting you, you ask him to list reasons why someone else is scum to redirect his attention.

No, Boonskiies was voting TrueTellHeart when I asked him for his case against massive. Bear in mind that Boonskiies listed massive as his biggest scum read. Now that Boonskiies is voting me (his second biggest scum read), I've asked for his reasons. This shouldn't be difficult. Boonskiies claimed to have already composed a wall with why I'm scum - though for some reason it never got posted.

[The Rufflig]

For real though. When you are scum, you like to make very logical and thought out posts. You come across as genuine, except you don't really have a lot of analysis, moreso justifying what has already been done. You ask a lot of questions, and then you give a conclusion that never really is directly relevant. Fluff, but harder to feel fluff. Similar to how massive plays, but less aggressive. Very laid back, and semi relaxed seeming. It's the kind of play that draws my attention and makes me see the fluffiness.

A meta argument. That game was one of my better attempts to mimic my town game (at least until I folded under a cop guilty claim). You're just paranoid because you never had any suspicions of me in that game.