Mini 1604 -- Zodiac Mafia (Game Over)

[Dry-fit]

Vote: StrangerCoug.

I'm supposed to be the only cat around here.

VOTE: Dry-fit

Honestly I never met a Leo that I liked. They are too "hey guys look at me" for my liking

You'll find I'm not like that at all. Doesn't mean you'll like me though.

[Dry-fit]

Waiting to see if Iec kill went through.

I blocked it.

I'm going to make a point of stating that I will

not

be joining the Xayzeck wagon.

[Dry-fit]

I thought his reaction was OTT and weird.

Is that alignment indicative?

@Iecerint is that a random vote or does it have to do with the fact Witness Protection is on the Xayzeck wagon?

[Dry-fit]

You may wait for Elyse to respond I guess.

Gracious of you.

[Dry-fit]

What are you trying to accomplish with this question?

I wanted to see if she was fake scumhunting.

At first I didn't like Elyse's response but the more I think about it the more I like it. I think responding to Gemini Blind's question in a way that didn't directly say she was suspicious of Xay was an honest response.

I'm inclined to think the scum are among the players focusing on dayvig stuff. Aka StrangerCoug and Salamence. And to a lesser extent maybe Gmini Blind.

[Dry-fit]

Scum in my experience tend to be more concerned about setup/role stuff on day 1.

[Dry-fit]

Scum in my experience tend to be more concerned about setup/role stuff on day 1.

This is an illegitimate argument since it is known there really is a dayvig somewhere among us. It's also a meta argument, which has a tendency not to work very well.

My point would be just as valid even if this was an open game. I'm not just talking about speculation but strategizing instead of scumhunting as well.

I think Salamence is the worst offender though. He hasn't really commented on anything but strategy to this point. Also don't like justifying himself by saying getting out of rvs is pro-town. Doesn't in any way mean it can't be scum motivated.

Unvote. Vote: Salamence20.

[Dry-fit]

My point would be just as valid even if this was an open game. I'm not just talking about speculation but strategizing instead of scumhunting as well.

Why would it be a scumtell to strategize? You expect the town to screw itself over? Is that what I'm supposed to be getting?

It's a scumtell because in my experience scum is more likely to talk exclusively about strategy in the early game. Why that is I'm not sure. It may be rolefising. It may be trying to look protown without taking any actual stances. In any case it's not strategizing in itself that's scummy. It's making strategizing te entirety or almost the entirety of your play.

Why is there a Witness Protection wagon again?

[Dry-fit]

I really do not buy this crap. Nobody's been talking exclusively about strategy

Then how would you characterize Salamence's play in this game?

I don't smell anybody trying to rolefish, and while you admit that strategizing is not a scumtell, when we have some idea of who could have what, strategizing is quite protown. It's not unknown to break setups that way (though it's far too early for there to be evidence either way of a broken setup).

As I said it's not talking about strategy. It's only or almost only talking about strategy.

Talking about the dayvig can't lead to someone's role, at most we can garner some clue of alignment when it's used, so this talk about setup/role stuff doesn't really apply

Sure it can. For instance if you goad player X into saying that he believes the dayvig should shoot before page five, and no one is shot before page five, player X is probably not the dayvig.

Nacho I think you're wrong about Elyse. Coming right out and saying you have no scumreads is most likely town

[Dry-fit]

Ah so it's his fluff posting that's saved him.

[Dry-fit]

Yes I know dayvig is not their role pm but a horoscope. What does that have to do with my example?

[Dry-fit]

Honestly I still don't really get what you're saying and don't think we're going to make any progress continuing along these lines.

[Dry-fit]

Ah so it's his fluff posting that's saved him.

How, exactly, is his fluff posting "saving" him when I still have him on my scumlist? I think you're outright misrepping me at this point.

You said no one has been talking exclusively about strategy. Then you said all that Salamence has been talking about is strategy and fluff. So it's apparently saving him in your view of being a player who has only talked about strategy.

[Dry-fit]

Have I suddenly lost the ability to communicate?

[Dry-fit]

Nacho I think you're wrong about Elyse. Coming right out and saying you have no scumreads is most likely town

I don't get your reasoning for this. The could maybe see you calling it town because it's something that's too risky for scum to say, but taking the position on page 6 doesn't seem that risky and thus not that town, and it prevents her from having to take positions on who to lynch because she doesn't have that opinion. I also didn't really like how she called me town and yet didn't engage my scumread on Salamence (aka pick out flaws in it) to see where I was coming from which shows me she not only lacks a scumread, but lacks interest in developing a scumread as well.

It's not that it's risky but that scum feels more of an obligation to come up with reads. If scum doesn't see something they can legitimately attack they will make a bs case. But if town doesn't see something to attack they're more willing to admit it.

At the same time I do acknowledge the whole "this person's only content is related to game mechanics, it could be scum trying to look useful." I'm fine with that, though less so since halfway through day 3 I'm not really sure what else we're suppose to talk about except for this interesting dayvig that has fallen in someone's lap.

I consider it town's obligation to make something to talk about if there's not much content yet.

[Dry-fit]

Vote: ToastyToast

I feel like I have a bunch of decent townreads this game and no real scumreads besides Salamence. Nacho, Xay, Juls, and probably Iecerint are all town. I'm liking Elyse a little less now.

My number 2 suspect would probably be PV. I really don't like that ToastyToast vote.

[Dry-fit]

Toasty is null to you, and you don't like my vote on him? ¿Por que?

I don't like naked votes. Also I don't like voting a player this far into the game who hasn't really provided content. You still haven't explained your vote.

@DryFit: I'm excited to watch my fav djoker slaughter murray tomorrow

Haggis Boy is taking out the trash tonight. Book it.

[Dry-fit]

So you think the only thing I should look at to determine whether I like a vote or not is my read on the player it's on?

[Dry-fit]

Iecerint what's your view on the Salamence wagon? You've kind of ignored it to this point.

burn are you happy with your vote on Juls?

[Dry-fit]

Iecerint what's your view on the Salamence wagon? You've kind of ignored it to this point.

burn are you happy with your vote on Juls?

I viewed it as a less-good WP wagon. Now I view it as a wagon I was never super crazy about that Toasty joined.

So do you have any other reads in this game? So far I've seen ToastyToast scum and Xayzeck town. That's it.

If he thought Toasty null, he would question my vote.

Normally I probably would have but in that post I wanted to give a general list of my reads in the game so I went ahead and said that I suspected you for your vote. Also I don't like naked votes regardless of the reason so any explanation you would have offered wouldn't have helped.

[Dry-fit]

9. Dry-Fit - He seems scummy, but if my memory is correct, this seems sorta like his normal play. So a lean scum atm, but not convinced.

Anything about me in particular that looks scummy?

[Dry-fit]

Well to be more clear, I

had

a townread on Salamence but that's dissipated somewhat and thus wouldn't cry buckets of tears if he died.

My question is why aren's you pushing for a Salamence lynch full stop? I mean you had a scumread on him which you took back because of his catchup. Well there's nothing impressive about his catchup at all in my view. He calls himself pro-town and says StrangerCoug was guilty of the same setup speculation he was. When it was Sal who dragged SC into the setup discussion in the first place. Then he posts a basic reads list. As soon as a counterwagon to him forms on PV, he immediately tries to play up PV's vote hopping. Which is not particularly alignment indicative expecially with the position PV was in at the time.

Really I don't know why Sal isn't the lead wagon at this point. Nothing he's done looks townie and he's done several scummy things.

Is Elyse scum who just doesn't know what to do here? She's an experienced player so you wouldn't think that would be the case but I don't know how else to explain her play.

Aronis is a pretty awful place to be voting. Juls was clearly town and Aronis isn't getting lynched today.

Xayzeck what are your views on the players in this game besides Elyse? Who would you want lynched if she's off the table?

[Dry-fit]

@PV: So the salamence wagon is meh but you vote Elyse without even knowing what the case is? Xayzeck may be town but he's in major tunnel mode this game so it's hard for me to take his case all that seriously.

Good luck Toasty!

[Dry-fit]

Dry-fit (or really any pro-Salamence):

Really I don't know why Sal isn't the lead wagon at this point. Nothing he's done looks townie and he's done several scummy things.

Forgive my laziness, but are they enumerated anywhere?

1. The setup discussion stuff. Of course many people disagree with this but I believe focusing primarily on setup stuff at the start in the game is more likely to come from scum. If you look at Sal's early posts that's almost all there was.
2. His next series of posts is almost all defending himself. He has a couple lines about not liking the way PV and Xay got on his wagon but that's really it for scumhunting.
3. He calls himself pro-town for helping end RVS, but I don't really see that from him. Yes his actions led to suspicion on him which moved the game forward but in general setup spec doesn't get the game moving. in fact he hasn't made advancing the game a priority at all either in RVS or afterward.
4. Eagerness to jump on PV for vote hopping:

PV is votehopping.

Squirm baby squirm

This was at a time when PV was an emerging counterwagon to Sal. This looks like opportunism to me.
5. I challenge anyone to point to a single post of Salamence's that makes him look town. I can point to town-looking posts from pretty much every other player but not for him.

[Dry-fit]

Hey guys.

We have less than 24 hours until deadline hits. And a bunch of players just went V/LA.

We need a lynch. Gemini you vote shows a lack of awareness about the gamestate.

@Xayzeck given what Elyse has offered in this game I'm willing to help you lynch her tomorrow. Salamence today.

[Dry-fit]

Unvote.

Let's see what comes of this.

[Dry-fit]

That wasn't hammer CTD. I unvoted so it's only six. I'll get to your points about my case later but for now I'll say vote hopping is not the same as naked voting. A player could only place on vote in a day and it can be a naked vote.

I'm pretty sure Salamence is scum if Elyse is town.

I'm here to hammer before deadline.

[Dry-fit]

Terrible why? Elyse was arguably the town's second suspect after Sal. So if he wanted to use the shot as a second lynch Elyse was a good choice.

[Dry-fit]

I still want Salamence lynched really.

[Dry-fit]

Vote: Aronis.

You were right CTD.

[Dry-fit]

Unvote. Vote: Salamence.

L-1 I think.

Yeah, I misanalyzed the situation.

Still think Aronis' attack on Sal was shady.

[Dry-fit]

I'm really going to be pushing to make sure this day doesn't go to another deadline lynch . It's been happening way too much on site recently and I'm sick of it.
On a reread Toasty and PeregrineV look very town. PV's interactions with Salamence don't look like buddy interactions, especially here:

PV is votehopping.

Squirm baby squirm

To me this is a clearly a legitimate attempt to get PV lynched.

For Toasty, he pushed pretty strongly to lynch Salamence yesterday. His posting in genera reads authentic and I don't feel he's kissing up to anyone.

@Nacho: Why did you switch your vote back to Salamence in 427?

It's pretty clear that you were just using different words to scrutinize the same action. What you really need to address is how this was opportunism on Salamance's part and why you later called PV's voting behavior "not particularly alignment indicative".

It looked like opportunism to me because PV was the first real alternative to a Salamence wagon that appeared. And it felt to me his tone of "squirm baby squirm" was an attempt to hype up that wagon more than was warranted. I don't think vote hopping is alignment indicative because I've seen it come many times from town. If anything I'd say it's maybe slightly more likely to come from town.

My top suspect right now is Aronis. Juls danced around the Salamence wagon in a scummy way.

9. Dry-Fit - He seems scummy, but if my memory is correct, this seems sorta like his normal play. So a lean scum atm, but not convinced.

Anything about me in particular that looks scummy?

I didn't really like the push on Salamence.

I don't know that I buy this. I asked Aronis about his read on me to see if he could back it up with an explanation, and this is what he offered. What didn't you like about my Salamence push? You had Sal as null on your reads list.

Later Aronis makes some posts distanceing himself from Sal:

Elyse is really really really town atm. Hopefully she wont die.

If she does, Sala's kill was careless and probably scum.

It's L-1? Anyways, that shot was terrible. He deserves to die.

why are people voting Aronis?

No useful content. Juls also doesn't have much content. Sort of hammered salamence. Salamence is likely town, worth at least keeping around if cop to verify.

I'd be willing to switch to Xayzeck personally; I will not vote Salemence today. I will reassess tomorrow.

~STD

I did not hammer Salamence. OK? Like get your fucking facts straight.

So I feel like 9 out of 10 times, Salamence doesn't hold the dayvig for anywhere near this long, but the cop claim sorta explains it. But at the sametime, wouldn't town just lynch the guility? If he claimed and assuming it wasn't MyLo/LyLo, I'd probably go along with it. Plus the shot seemed really poorly timed. Why doesn't he claim dayvig, then shoot? I don't see any reason for the rush there. Then following it up with a cop claim, he's just trying to save himself at this point. I highly doubt he's the cop. So I will gladly hammer the conf scum for Gemini.

VOTE: Salamence

HAMMER!

======[]

These look pretty contrived to me.

I'd be willing to look at Iecerint as an alternative as well. And yes, I'm another player voicing suspicion of you without voting you

Vote: Aronis.

[Dry-fit]

Man that Salamance lynch was such a bad deadline lynch wasn't it we should all be ashamed.

Sometimes they work out but on average they're not ideal.

[Dry-fit]

Salamence was not lynched because of lame compromisey things. He was lynched because his claim did not make sense with earlier material he had posted in the thread.

I know. I'm talking about before the deadline was extended because of his shot. We were under 24 hours till deadline and no one had more than 4 votes. Sal fired is shot at L-2 with about 10 hours left to go. There's no reason to allow that kind of thing and it's within town's power to prevent it.

[Dry-fit]

@Dryfit, Sala's play late in the day just sort of started falling like a rock, imo. Up until the dayvig shot, he didnt strike me as very scummy, after that my read on him took a sharp turn. At the time your push on him didnt give me a good feeling, but it turns out I was wrong.

But what specifically about my push gave you a bad feeling? Was it just that my case didn't convince you, or was it something else?

1) Salamence loves bussing.
2) ??? this is a horrible reason to clear someone. I can post many posts of me trying to get scumbuddies lynched much, much more aggressively as scum if you'd like.

I reread the game twice during night, and both times PV came off as very town. The interactions with Sal going both ways didn't make sense for buddies for pretty much the whole day. I don't want him lynched today.

I feel like I really need to rethink this game, but Iecerint is off the table for a lynch today.

Why?

[Dry-fit]

I was more interested in why you said Iecerint is off the table.

[Dry-fit]

@Nacho:

I really want an answer to my question. Why did you switch your vote to Salaence in 427?

Dry-fit needs to address the issues I had with his Salamance push, since the scum flip doesn't change how I feel about them. I'm miffed that he hasn't addressed them already, given the additional 3 days we got yesterday.

I tried to address it in my first post of the day. The only thing I can really add is that in general I just don't find vote hopping scummy. I've also seen scum attack vote hopping many times as a way to manufacture a case. Naked voting I do find scummy. I don't see why this is a problem. I think there were good reasons to attack PV for his vote, but also illegetimate reasons to do so.

Peregrine had a credible wagon yesterday?

Vote Count 1 - 10

• PeregrineV (4) ( Salamence20 - Elyse - Nachomamma8 - Gemini Blind)
  
  Elyse (2) ( StrangerCoug - Xayzeck)
  Salamence20 (2) ( Dry-fit - ToastyToast)
  ToastyToast (1) ( Iecerint -
  PeregrineV
  )
  burn_209 (1) ( Juls)
  Juls (1) ( burn_209)
  Dry-fit (1) ( PeregrineV)
  Xayzeck (0) (
  ToastyToast
  )
  
  Not Voting (0) (
  Gemini Blind
  )

About as credible as any wagon besides Salamence ever got.

[Dry-fit]

At first I was pretty confident that one of elyse/xayzeck would be scum, but soon after salamance dayvigged elyse and voted xayzeck. I'm trying to figure out his reasoning for this and I keep getting stumped.

My take on it is I think it was a desperate attempt to save himself. Elyse was arguably the town's biggest suspect after Salamence. So Salamence wanted to look protown by using his kill as a "second lynch" and killing Elyse. The reason I didn't vote Salamence immediately after he claimed cop is that killing Elyse was a protown move. It just seemed like bad scumplay. Salamence may have been relying on reactions like mine.

So I don't think the Elyse kill says anything about Xayzeck.

[Dry-fit]

So we have less than three days here, though deadline extension is possible. We need a real wagon to emerge, and it should be on Aronis. He's dodged my question about why he didn't like my Salamence case. He hasn't brought anything to the table scumhunting wise today. Though he's not really the only one that applies to. And as far as I remember no one has a town read on him. Let's make this happen.

[Dry-fit]

Can I pick who hammers me then?

I'm not one for letting scum have things how they want them. Feel free to hammer yourself when the time comes though.

Wait, you're alive? I thought you were just a talking dummie.

Yea this is the kind of content Aronis is up to producing here. No desire to find scum. No desire to help he town. Kill it now.

@PV: I have my doubts about Nacho as well but he's not the lynch for today and it isn't going to get the support today.

[Dry-fit]

This is just the kind of situation I was trying to avoid. We have a day and 7 hours before deadline and no one close to a lynch. Aronis is in the lead with 2 votes. So SC and CTD, now is the time to vote your scumread. Everyone else, why won't you consider voting Aronis here?

My biggest issue with the Aronis lynch is the fact he hammered Sala. I very rarely find scum hammering scum, just because it makes it harder for them to win. Wagon, yes. Hammer, not so much.

Why is he a better lynch than Nacho?

Well that's not really my experience. Scum can hammer scum especially when their buddy is doomed anyway.

Aronis is a beter lynch because he doesn't want to be helpful to the town and hasn't done townie things. Nacho has done things like pushing Sal and defending me that looked townie. My problem with him is that I don't see where he's been coming from this game day.

I think Peregribe is town!

Well that's a start. Now vote Aronis.

[Dry-fit]

2) Sorry but you are wrong about the Salamance push. Idk why you think Dry-Fit is scum.

His Salamance push looks to me like a hard bus followed by a 180 when he claimed and a subsequent backpeddal, but I'll get to this in a seperate post.

Believe me I'm not a good enough player that I can bus the shit out of my buddies and win as scum. Also you think I speifically bussed my buddy who had the dayvig, when scum was planning to use it to win in lylo? I mean if scum don't have daytalk they may not have known about it, but if they do it wouldn't make much sense to bus Sal and ruin their own plan.

[Dry-fit]

And in context, I think it's clear that's what Salamance was trying to insinuate.

This might be the source of our disagreement then. That's not the impression I got. It seemed to me that Sal was saying PV was scummy because of the number of people he'd voted in a short span of time. Whether PV was actually votehopping or not isn't what I was interested in either. I was interested in Sal's accusation, which in my experience is the kind of accusation more likely to come from scum.

Dry-fit: "Pere is naked voting, I think that's scummy".
Salamance: "I agree, he's vote hopping".
Dry-fit: "What an opportunistic thing to say!"

A large part of the reason I saw it as opportunistic is because of the tone of Sal's post:

PV is votehopping.

Squirm baby squirm

It's true that players want to egg on wagons they like but this struck me as over the top based on the tone of "squirm baby squirm." Add to that the fact that PV was the only real counterwagon that ever appeared to Sal's.

I also still have trouble wrapping my head around you calling Pere's voting behavior "not alignment indicative". Even with the distinction that vote hopping isn't scummy but naked voting is, I find that statement to be inconsistent.

I didn't say his voting behavior wasn't alignment indicative. I said vote hopping isn't alignment indicative in the position PV was in.

Yeah, I misanalyzed the situation.

How exactly did you misanalyse the situation? You were the strongest proponent of a Salamance lynch and you specifically attacked him for his early game dayvig discussion, so I find it dubious that you bought his claim so easily.

I believed him because killing Elyse was just bad scum play. Elyse was a player who seemed likely to be mislynched at some point in the game. And it wasn't like Elyse would be obvtown after Sal flipped scum. It was such a protown kill that I thougt it had to come from town. That combined with his cop claim made me think it was more prudent to let Sal live at least one night to get a result. But then people pointed out that Sal should have claimed long before and he wouldn't have had to use his shot, if that was his plan. And they pointed out that Sal had said things earlier in the game about how the dayvig should be played that contradicted what he was saying after his shot. Those are the things I misanalyzed.

Speaking of, what do you make of Nacho's naked vote on me, Dry-fit?

I don't like it of course. I also don't like that he won't engage me on my Aronis read when he has me as such a strong townread.

[Dry-fit]

I don't like it of course. I also don't like that he won't engage me on my Aronis read when he has me as such a strong townread.

Are you going to do anything about it?

Well I didn't want to do anything about it because I was worried you were trying to manipulate me into lynching Nacho because I was concerned by the lack of viable wagons. But it looks like I don't have any choice now.

Unvote. Vote: Nachomamma8.

If town wants to actually show up and get an Aronis wagon going I'd be all for it.

14 hours til deadline.

[Dry-fit]

Unvote. Vote: Aronis.

@RedCoyote: You have Nacho voting two people in the votecount.

[Dry-fit]

I think scum is between nacho/CTD/Iecerint. I don't really know where to start though.

I don't know why SC was killed either.

[Dry-fit]

This sucks. I would say we should consider no lynch here, but it's possible scum could get another daykill and end the game instantly.

I don't know why Iecerint is a town read for some(such as Nacho). It seems to be because of his actions exposing Salamence day 1. But I could see that cming from scum easily looking to gain cred for pointing out things that would be brought up eventually anyway.

[Dry-fit]

I'm guessing that maybe Nacho broke his post restriction?

[Dry-fit]

According to the rules the hider dies if they are town and hide behind scum.

If the hider hides behind the townie who get shot town instantly loses.

We also don't even know if the hider is still alive.

[Dry-fit]

I mean I think it's only a 3% chance of scum getting a daykill tomorrow but it's a possibility.

[Dry-fit]

Something we're overlooking is that town doesn't only lose by no lynching if scum gets an extra daykill tomorrow. We also lose if a towne gets opposite alignment empowered. And possibly L-1 Lynch. We also don't know if scum has some other ability to force a win. Though I admit it's unlikely that they do.

I want to lynch CTD or Iec today. I really don't like Iec proposing a no lynch without considering all the horoscopes that could make it a bad idea.

[Dry-fit]

Your reasoning for wanting to lynch me and your current read on Xazeck, please.

I suspect you because I don't find your scumread on me credible. I understand the apparent inconsistencies you're pointing out but looking at my play overall day one I don't see how you can legitimately come to the conclusion that I'm partners wit Sal. I also feel you were trying to manipulate me to vote for Nacho when you had the chance yesterday. Even though you expressed suspicion of Aronis all game you had no interest in joining me wen I wanted to get an Aronis wagon going. I think you thought Nacho was more of a threat to you and wanted him killed instead.

On the other hand I felt Burn's play looked kind of town while he was here. I also have a tough time seeing how trying to push my lynch is a good way for you to win if you're scum. Although you were pushing for a Nacho lynch before he was modkilled and that was more feasible.

Xayzeck I feel has been making genuine posts. I don't know that I have a lot more to say about his play though. It's not a terribly strong townread.

Iecerint I suspect for pushing for no lynch here. It just seems bad. I also am wary of the fact that he called SC obvious town. I think scum felt he was obvtown, but I sure didn't. And I don't think anyone said that he was in thread either. I think Iec is revealing the real reason scum made the kill.

[Dry-fit]

CTD said it, too, in the context of saying that he and I were obvtown. Nacho I inferred in the context of agree with StrangerCoug that I was town. I'm sure there were others. It wasn't in any way a controversial read until D3 started and people bizarrely became know-nothings.

Yeah but you could easily be buddies with CTD.

Create a mood that will calm the nerves and soothe the soul. Your sense of romance is right on target.

Vote: CrashTextDummie.

[Dry-fit]

I'm not claiming.

Let's take out this Dummie. We have just over a day till deadline guys. I really don't think no lynch is good here.

[Dry-fit]

This is lame.