Mini 442 - Beast Wars Mafia Game Over

[Aimee]

vote: Trust Gossip

, because I don't trust gossip.

[Aimee]

unvote

,

vote: ryan

, you understand that playing it safe isn't actually that good a strategy for town? Especially since you seem convinced Lowell is scum too.

[Aimee]

And my access this week will be sporadic at best because of finals, but I should be back to normal and actively posting on Friday and Saturday.

[Aimee]

Someone accused me of being quiet, which is a very fair accusation. I want to remind everyone that it will not be untill tomorrow I can make a substantial post. Thank you.

[Aimee]

Well, you guys did say you wanted a long post from me so... brace yourself! Not only have I got one long post, I have another! I sound like some kind of weird salesman, so on that note, let's begin.

Game Timeline (and my thoughts)

Game start. Random voting occurs. Teffc asks if anyone hasn’t posted. Everyone random voted, with the exception of HackerHuck, who randomly chose ranom.org, but Albert B. Rampage was the last to random vote, yet the second to post. He also spoke in poetry. Lowell was the first person to accuse someone else of being scum and change his vote – although this was obviously random.

A vote count early on page 2 reveals no early leader of votes, although TrustGossip got two random votes (the highest). And JordanA24 is the first to point out Albert’s rhyming.

Lowell then jumps on the random TrustGossip bandwagon. Ryan seems to have the biggest issue with this, but JordanA24 points out that random bandwagons can be in fact beneficial. Lowell then votes Ryan, perhaps for his reaction to Lowell’s vote.

Ryan justifies his position, saying it is possible that “we mess up”, which could lead to a townie’s lynch, which makes him feel “uneasy”. Personally I disagree. Random bandwagon’s often don’t lead to that person’s lynch, but they provide us with valuable information – the reactions of the accused, who jumped on the bandwagon and often where the next bandwagon forms. In short – the random bandwagon is very useful. Yet interestingly, JordanA24 agrees with Ryan and unvotes (he had been voting TrustGossip).

Ryan votes Lowell, yet explains that it was because bandwagonning is wrong. I disagree. Lowell was bringing out a reaction and not doing anything scummy. This vote puzzles me.

Primoris disagrees that random bandwagons are bad, and points out the TrustGossip wasn’t in any danger – he only had three votes. He then accuses JordanA24 of “playing too safe” for unvoting TrustGossip. Jordan counters that the random bandwagon has a higher chance of catching a pro-town player than a mafia player, but that begs the question, without random voting, where would we be? Jordan also says that unpredictable newbies could act irrationally and put on votes. I disagree with this, because whilst there are newbies like this, they are unlikely to muster enough votes for a lynch, which would have to have some provocation.

Ryan seems to misinterpret the “playing it safe” accusation as if it was against him (understandable, as I did first time too). But he says that he does play it safe, yet feels that Lowell’s “tactics” are scummy. HackerHuck rightly points out that bandwagons are effective to see who jumps on and off, and also attacks Ryan for playing it safe, yet thinking Lowell is guilty. Ryan counters this seemingly by accusing HackerHuck of playing it safe, which I don’t particularly understand. When did HackerHuck play it safe?

Teffc again seems to want some other people to speak up. I would agree with this, since at this point Albert, myself, TrustGossip, OverTheUnder and dezzr hadn’t posted. Teffc for this reason sticks to his random vote of dezzr. Don’t you think it is a bit early for a lurker hunt, Teffc?

I point out that playing it safe isn’t a good strategy for town, and Lowell agrees with HackerHuck, saying “this guy is town”. Whilst I wouldn’t go that far, I do agree that HackerHuck is seeming pro-town at the moment.

Albert jumps in with another rhyme, and points suspicion at Lowell and Teffc, yet doesn’t explain why. The two posts he gives as reasons aren’t justifiable of any suspicion. Therefore why do you consider Teffc and Lowell to be the most suspicious?

Primoris says that Albert doesn’t post like this in other games. He also says that whilst playing it safe is bad for the town, he doesn’t think that Ryan is, although no explanation is given.

Jordan also says he finds Albert’s poetry odd, but says that a post-restriction like that in a game like this would be weird. Um, why? It is a mini theme game, so anything is possible, to an extent. Jordan also accuses Teffc, saying she just jumps in to say she is still around, yet doesn’t contribute anything. I would have to agree with this.

HackerHuck had said earlier that he is always town. I took that as a joke, yet Teffc seemed to take it seriously, wondering whether HackerHuck had any investigation immunity. Er, slightly early for role fishing like that. She then says that HackerHuck suspected Lowell (actually didn’t), yet Lowell considers him town. She then places FoSes on both, for reasons that are pretty illogical to me anyway. Another explanation here, Teffc?

HackerHuck says rightly that Teffc is looking into that too much, and said he never suspected Lowell at all. Would it also be correct, that your “I am always town” statement was random? That’s what I interpreted it as, anyway. Ryan then asks Teffc is she considers HackerHuck to be scum.

A vote count reveals that Ryan is heading the vote count, yet still at lynch -3. Nothing else stands out except that Albert, TrustGossip, OverTheUnder and dezzr haven’t changed their random votes.

Ryan’s response to this is basically that he thinks Lowell has “shown enough scummy tendencies” (?) and that we also have a fair share of lurkers. Ryan, what is your case against Lowell?

TrustGossip comes on and votes Albert, saying that he isn’t a fan of his cryptic messages. He also promises to write more later, which hasn’t so far happened. What are your feelings on everyone else, TrustGossip?

Teffc says that HackerHuck is acting “too clean”, which could be a tactic to “throw us off”. Er, this is slightly exaggerated. HackerHuck made (what I perceive) to be a joke and a random statement, but you seem to have formed a case against him because of this, which revolves around being too clean and having investigation immunity. Do you have a proper case against HackerHuck?

HackerHuck says there is a problem with the vote count, but Ryan jumps in basically saying that HH is lynch happy. Dude, he was checking a vote count. And Teffc also says she was putting HH under pressure to see how he would react. Actually, HH didn’t really panic, and it was a pretty weak case, Teffc. In fact, it comes across far worse on your side. She also misinterprets Ryan’s lynch happy claim as being at her, when it was clearly aimed at HH. Ryan says this was maybe a “scum slipup.” Ryan actually argues this well, there is no reason for Teffc to be lynch happy – she isn’t even voting! HH just dismisses Ryan’s claims, yet Teffc says Ryan was being “ironic”. How so?

Ryan then says he is sure that there are two scum on the bandwagon. Not sure how you got to that. After Jordan asks if it is HH and Lowell, Ryan responds that it is either myself or dezzr for lurking. This whole point is just totally bizarre. I can’t understand this, personally. Firstly, why two scum? Secondly, why Lowell as scum? Thirdly, why not HH?

Jordan then says dezzr voted Ryan randomly, and I voted with a reason. He then chimes in that Lowell and Teffc are the most suspicious. With Teffc I see your reasoning. With Lowell, I see no reasoning. Why Lowell?

Jordan also doesn’t vote, something which Ryan and HH both rightly point out. He says that neither are worthy of a vote yet, but Jordan also says he is waiting for concrete evidence. Even if you aren’t willing to vote for them, why not put on a FoS? And what concrete evidence are you going to get on day 1, especially after no night faze?

HH implies that Jordan is a cop by saying he isn’t going to get any guilty cop results on day 1. Ryan attacks this as being “impatient or opportunistic”. To be honest, I am unusure what to make of this at all.

Primoris makes a point that Jordan could be using the “concrete evidence” reason as a way to just against an innocent player. He also says that Jordan and ryan have been playing non-agressively, whilst HH and Lowell have been playing towards a lynch, which is better. I am inclined to agree. He also points out Ryan hasn’t done anything to convince him of his innocence. He therefore votes against Ryan, putting him at lynch -2.

Teffc points out what Primoris just said, that Jordan could use the “concrete evidence” argument ot just vote an innocent. Teffc also says he is “playing it safe.” I find it interesting that Primoris made both these accusations earlier, and now Teffc makes them. Whilst they are both true, I don’t really see this as adding new information, just a way for Teffc of looking like pro-town.

Teffc also says HH is acting suspicious because he isn’t explaining his actions, but I don’t really see what HH has to explain, frankly. HH may be playing aggressively, but he isn’t doing anything that is outright suspicious right now. Teffc, what is your case against HH?

Ryan disagrees with Primoris’ “voting tactics”. He also says that “being inclined to lynch someone isn’t a good thing.” True, but it is better than being indecisive and weak. Although I am not directly accusing you of this. Ryan also takes another stab at lurkers, and then says that HH is trying to start bandwagon’s against townies.

Jordan makes a post saying he isn’t looking for overwhelming concrete evidence to vote for someone. Personally, I see this as a back-track because he knows it has been received badly. He also emphasises the accusation he has been playing too safely because he says he doesn’t want to lynch someone for crap-logic or illogical evidence. True, but you understand that putting a vote on someone isn’t inherently bad, and can actually be beneficial overall? Vote patterns are a really important way of judging the game.

Teffc then says that Ryan isn’t really guilty, and that the bandwagon was started by Lowell’s “pressure tactics”, or Ryan’s disagreements to that.

Primoris puts a pressure vote against Ryan (it didn’t count firstly) saying he is prepared to put Ryan in danger to see his reaction. Ryan takes this in a defeatist way, saying that lynching him is a bad play. Um, Ryan, Primoris was saying that it wouldn’t be a good idea to lynch you.

But Jordan seems to agree with Ryan, saying that Primoris’ “pressure” theory is nothing more than BS, and that he hasn’t liked Primoris’ last posts.

[Aimee]

So, that is what has happened through the game. Now I will do a player analysis.

I am suspicious of

Albert B. Rampage’s

poetry. I am pretty sure this is a post restriction at work. I want him to explain if he can why he has to post like this.

Dezzr

has obviously lurked and needs a prod.

I feel overall that

HackerHuck

is playing slightly aggressively, but I believe is acting in the interests of the town, and is an active and beneficial player. I don’t see the cases against him.

Jordan

I initially saw as pro-town, but he has come back with some bizarre suspicions, and has notably played safely without taking risks with voting, which I see as quite crucial. This is maybe a way to get out of the blame when voting can be fully analysed later.

Lowell

I initially saw as just searching for reactions. However, the fact that he is quite obviously lurking and not contributing just emphasises the way that maybe he was just starting a case against Ryan for the sake of it. I am less impressed than I was.

OverTheUnder

needs a prod, as a lurker.

I see

Primoris

as a very helpful member of the town at the moment, and feel that his analysis has often be very accurate.

Although

Ryan

has made some good points, I feel that his cases and points against Lowell, especially HH have been unjustified and illogical. I want to know his cases against them.

Teffc

is really acting scummy. She has attacked HH for seemingly little reason, and has been making points I feel for the sake of making points – to appear pro-town. Some of her analysis is just a mirror of other people’s, and I have yet to see any major opinions from her (with the exception of her bizarre case against HH).

TrustGossip

I haven’t really got an opinion on, but I want to hear his summary. In fact, I see him as a potential lurker.

So, as a result...

unvote

, as I will probably re-vote determining the reactions to my summary.

FoS: JordanA24, Lowell, Ryan and Teffc

Minor FoS: Albert B. Rampage and TrustGossip

[Aimee]

Wow, I never knew it was that long. I just checked at it is actually 5 pages of A4...

[Aimee]

Sorry to post again, but I am now "Mafia Scum"... HURRAY!

[Aimee]

Sorry to post again, but I also want:

Prod: OverTheUnder, dezzr and Lowell

[Aimee]

Jordan, Albert was saying that Teffc and Lowell were most suspicious, but using your post to explain why.

[Aimee]

vote: Teffc

She hasn't come on to defend herself, and I see her as the most scummy so far.

[Aimee]

*Cough*... I'm voting Teffc, but I am also put down as not voting...

[Aimee]

A lot seems to have happened since my last post. Welcome, Sweenytodd!

Hackerhuck: Became defensive right away with my random.org vote. Very strange to tell somebody they suck when the vote was RANDOM. I’ve always said that early posts tell a lot about how people play and immediately I saw this as strange how he misconstrued my vote. Than jumps on me because I didn’t like how Lowell bandwagon voted and says I’m not playing it “safe” like I earlier said? How is one vote on somebody not playing it safe? Post 64 asking me what I thought about the “bandwagon on me” also seemed rather odd.

Um, that's actually a pretty weak case, you understand?

To you townies that still haven't voted it's time to step up and take out the trash. There are scum that have targeted me, do not let them take me out, I am a pro town player and am more helpful alive than dead, trust me.

Pressurising non-voters is a horrible strategy, especially since 1) we aren't in a deadline and 2) they could be not voting for a reason. It is horribly aggressive and pushy, and has continued for several pages. Any reason why?

Well, Ryan's bandwagon was mostly because people had a slight suspicion about his safe voting tactics, and some cited not voting Lowell even though he was sure as a reason EVEN THOUGH HE DID VOTE LOWELL.

Also, apart from deezr's random vote, Lowell, who is scum, was the first to vote for him for seemingly no reason at all. It seems obvious to me that either Lowell or Teffc are by far better lynches for today.

You understand this is horribly supportive of Ryan?

I also agree with what Sweenytodd says a lot of the time, especially with Lowell's bizarre suspicion arising from it. I agreed with what Sweenytodd says, which therefore surprised me when both Ryan ( I can understand) and TrustGossip decided to defend Ryan.

Also, how are bandwagons inherently bad? I am of the belief we need a random bandwagon to start day 1. By using bandwagons, we can assess vote-hopping, reactions ot the bandwagons and who is on and off bandwagons at all times. They can be incredibly valuable, paradoxically, for town.

FoS: Ryan

, for some rather faulty logic here. Note, I won't be putting a vote on, but I don't understand why Sweenytodd putting Ryan at -2 was so shockingly awful.

[Aimee]

unvote Fraggle/Teffc

... hi!

Jordan and Ryan, what is involved in your case against Lowell, ignoring a few jokey posts? Have you thought that this is maybe Lowell's playstyle at all?

And what about Fraggle? You understand he can't justify any of Teffc's actions at all, and should be judged - almost - independently from Teffc, although granted, Teffc's actions still have some bearing.

So to conclude - what's your case?

[Aimee]

Seeing as Jordan effectively challenged us to go throught his posts to find his case on Lowell, I did so.

Despite the fact he "vocalises his opinions" in his own words, his actually case against Lowell isn't apparent. Yes, there is a lot of defence of Ryan. Yes, there is a lot of "Lowell is obvious scum, he should be lynched NOW." However, only ONE post has an actual case against Lowell, and even then it merely focuses on one of Lowell's posts.

To therefore say that you would be "summarising" if you gave your case again, is inherently wrong. We don't know your case against Lowell. There have been chances to do it, but you have just breezed past them.

FoS: Jordan

Saying "Lowell is obvious scum" doesn't cut it anymore. A proper case against Lowell is required.

And Ryan, this isn't for you to answer. So don't. Let Jordan answer first, so that I can finally see 100% what his case is.

[Aimee]

Jordan and Ryan, let's say that for some bizarre reason we decide to follow you two and we vote out Lowell (evidently, we were convinced by your incredible arguments, which amount spectacularly to just "Lowell is scum"). We lynch Lowell.

Oh my my, Lowell turns up town. Then what would we do?

[Aimee]

I would shift my attention to either Primoris or HackerHuck (who I earlier suspected)

Why?

[Aimee]

Fragglescum, pay attention. I asked the exact same question basically on the last page.

And Ryan, then you mentioned HackerHuck and Primoris. Why now Albert and Primoris? Why not HackerHuck? Why Albert? Why the change in opinion?

[Aimee]

Fraggle, why can't Jordan finger Ryan?

And Jordan, I'm glad you are having your own thoughts and things. It is good. I do, however, see it as distancing for the most part.

And also: Jordan are you Rosso Carne in disguise?

[Aimee]

Ok seriously I'm getting frustrated with this reasoning, HOW am I distancing? I've named suspects, I've stuck with my vote, WHAT am I missing?

That was referring to Jordan.

[Aimee]

I will be on holiday from Monday through to Sunday. No access at all. Mod, you know I will be back. Replacement not needed. Sorry for the inconvenience - I will be back, I promise!

[Aimee]

unvote

, if I was voting.

[Aimee]

Back now. Post coming later tomorrow.

[Aimee]

Wow. Not much has happened since I left. Waiting for STD's comment.

[Aimee]

One thing I have thought just now is that perhaps Ryan is a townie, who got accused first, and Jordan is scum. Jordan is trying to link to Ryan so that if Ryan gets lynched, he looks more like a townie. I think their whole defence is totally bizarre, as is the case against Lowell. However, I see Jordan as scummier than Ryan at the moment.

[Aimee]

Mod, can we have a prod of Trust Gossip?

We need him to say what he thinks, especially since he is already voting Jordan. With everyone joining him, it means there are five voting for him. Jordan you are now very near a lynch, especially as I would be voting for you apart from the fact it would put you at -1.

[Aimee]

Jordan, your claim can be perhaps provable. However, your alignment cannot be proven. You could, for all we know, be a pro-Mafia roleblocker.

[Aimee]

Just had a read of Fraggle's posts. Frankly, it deserves an immediate

Fos: Fraggle

. I may upgrade to a vote, but one thing is that he is incredibly non-committal, really not saying very much, asking questions that had previously been asked, expressing suspicion towards both sides of the Ryan and Lowell affair, and has only voted Jordan and jumped on the bandwagon. All of this obviously has been hiding and staying invisible.

[Aimee]

Just had a read of Fraggle's posts. Frankly, it deserves an immediate

Fos: Fraggle

. I may upgrade to a vote, but one thing is that he is incredibly non-committal, really not saying very much, asking questions that had previously been asked, expressing suspicion towards both sides of the Ryan and Lowell affair, and has only voted Jordan and jumped on the bandwagon. All of this obviously has been hiding and staying invisible.

1. I have more posts than you in this game, and I was a replacement.

2. I was equally suspicious of Ryan and Lowell, but did not feel either warranted a vote. Should I have voted anyway? Why? Just for fun and to look active?

3. As I said before, I still find Jordan the most suspicious. But, since he has been an unchallenged claim, I won't go forward with that until we are futher in the game and we have more information.

1. Irrelevant. My posts clearly show my suspicions. Your posts are more wishy-washy and non-committal.

2. It isn't voting. It's the fact you just seem to not take a side, just go along with the flow.

3. Okay. so you don't find Jordan suspicious anymore, but who are you suspicious of?

[Aimee]

At the moment, I am quite unsure. I am going to sleep, re-read in the morning, and then hopefully will be in a better position. Although at the moment, I am leaning on Fraggle.

[Aimee]

Vote: Fraggle

So uncommittal it stinks. And recently has said that deezr and Primoris (convenient lurker targets) are scummy, although evidently they are not the targets for today.

I would also be happy to go with a TrustGossip vote, because he has basically coasted up to here, and basically said nothing too.

Also:

Mod: Can we get prods on Albert, and perhaps TrustGossip and STD?

[Aimee]

Dusk, I appreciate your thoughts, but one question I have is why the change from "Fraggle... doesn't strike me as scum" to a vote towards him?

[Aimee]

Sweeny, after checking back, you haven't said much about Fraggle either. I am curious to see what you make of recent actions.

[Aimee]

I read the wiki recently, and I don't really understand. Is the town the Maximal people, and the scum the other Peramoti-oties, or whatever? I am totally confused. Dusk, we need you!

Also, the game would be very unbalanced, in my opinion, to have three killing roles (Mafia, Vig and SK).

[Aimee]

I read the wiki recently, and I don't really understand. Is the town the Maximal people, and the scum the other Peramoti-oties, or whatever? I am totally confused. Dusk, we need you!

Maximals and Predacons vs. Vok aliens and maybe other unknown baddies

So the Maximals are aligned with the Predacons? Or am I just getting confused?

Also, the game would be very unbalanced, in my opinion, to have three killing roles (Mafia, Vig and SK).

There has to either be another vig or a SK. Two vigs are unlikely, and 2 mafia groups of 2 is improbable since we lynched a

godfather

(are we to assume there are two godfathers...?). The most probable scenario is mafia and SK.

Also, Aimee, you fail to remember that Jordan claimed role-blocker. His claim makes even more sense now when you think of the game's balance.

Some good points there, Albert. I actually agree now - I think there are three killing groups, as I think it is unlikely that ryan would kill HH (I remember him saying that they were pro-town.)

The way that the mod refers tp the Maximal camp and not the Predacons perhaps indicates a frightening prospect - could it be that there ARE two Mafia groups, and it is the Predacons vs Voks vs Maximals?

Jordan, obviously you are unable to quote your PM, but seeing as your role is a Predacon, does it indicate that you will win alongside the Maximals?

[Aimee]

Thanks Dusk! And what do you make of everything that has happened recently in this game?

[Aimee]

I'm suspicious of the way Dusk switched directions concerning Fraggle so quickly at the end of yesterday.

Some people also need prods.

[Aimee]

MOD: Can we get prods on Sweeny, Lowell and STD?

[Aimee]

And I'm suspicious of the way Aimee keeps bringing up my vote on Fraggle. It's not so much that's she's against me (because Confused is too), but more so that she hasn't adressed my explainations on the matter. I'd trust her more if she had picked apart my explainations for inconsistencies and lies. She seems to me as if she's using a Mafia tactic of having let me live through the Night only to ride the suspicions from the previous Day to get me Lynched. It's easier than wasting a Kill.


My next post will be a full ramble on Sweeny.

Fair enough. I actually read your explanation, and it does make sense. I am prepared to let it fly by for the moment.

You obviously understand that on first sight it does look suspicious - the fact that within an hour you said he wasn't scum - it strikes me as a goon trying to protect the godfather, but basically being forced by the wagon to switch sides.

[Aimee]

Right, Aimee, I don't blame anybody for being suspicious of my vote on Fraggle. But I think if someone really looks at the posts, there's good reaoning is there to consider.

Now to continue with Lowell, I didn't like how the votes came off of Lowell because he simply questioned the two people who voted him. The line about the OMGUS and the Wait-do-i-still-have-a-random-vote-on-me part was suspicious. So I voted for him on that. Sometimes you don't get a list of compelling arguments just a couple of incidents that don't sit well with you.

But then he started playing a little more seriously and began directing his attention to other player besides just one or two players- ryan and Jordan, as he should. (So should I) I think he was right and the Mafia were just spectating and running down the clock (post362). It helps for later when he criticizes Jordan for not "varying targets" (410). Lowell is right, of course. Also, him being an early voter on Fraggle gains a lot of points (454). So, with all these ood moves to counter-act the early bad ones, I'm willing to go for someone else.

Unvote: Lowell

But I still am wary about him.

Dusk, I would advice you to read some games Lowell has completed recently. Trust me, he plays like this. What he has done is definitely play-style related.

[Aimee]

I am also going to re-read TrustGossip's posts.

[Aimee]

Analysis coming later.

[Aimee]

Some points about some people.

1. Primoris / =Confused=

I remember a few people (notably ryan) thinking that Primoris was scummy. Checking back over Primoris' posts, I don't see anything scummy in them - rather, I see them as quite pro-town. Lots offer quite acute and analytical explanations and observations. The only notable thing about his posts are that in his last one, he said HackerHuck was less active, a point I didn't and don't agree with. After that, it was replacement. Overall, judging by his posts, I would not say Primoris was suspicious at all.

After a long gap, =Confused= replaces in. I like his first post. He basically says my entire opinion of Albert, which gives me confidence that we are thinking similarly. I find his points against TG quite good as well. However, one thing I find very interesting is that he focuses on, what are in my mind, a quite minor issue (an inconsistency of thought about myself), and also focuses in great detail on TG's dislike of Teffc being replaced. The thing I note that the main issue for me - the fact that he seems pretty non-committal and "in the middle ground about anything" - he mentions only briefly before moving on. That said, this is hardly a scum-tell, merely an interesting point. Hang on, he elaborates more later. That said, I don't know why he didn't in his original post.

His scum-list in the next paragraph is interesting. He starts with TG and Dusk, then it is Albert (interestingly who he had previously said would be unlikely scum), and then STD and myself (who he encouraged to post more), and then Sweeny and Jordan. Lowell tops the list of town-ness, which I find very interesting indeed. I would like =Confused= to elaborate on this. The very fact he highlights some of Lowell's behaviour as "bad" in the next post seems to highlight my point here - Lowell doesn't seem at the most pro-town player in the game at all...

Later he says he is happy with his vote on TG, but doesn't expand on this point.

So yes, that's basically all we have so far on Confused. Primoris was in my eyes pro-town, and Confused has done nothing to change my opinion, and has, if anything, strengthened that. Although he has some things I find bizarre (Lowell at the top of his townie list being the main one), I see him as most definitely pro-town at this point.[/url]

[Aimee]

I would also like to apologise for referring to Confused as a man in the previous post.

(I know I hate that...)

[Aimee]

So who is the most suspicious person in your mind ?

I'm going to do that for every player over the next several days. Hope to have a definite answer by then.

I know this is a non-answer, really. I need to re-read before deciding anything majorly. Although tentively I would put Dusk and TrustGossip as my top two.

[Aimee]

His scum-list in the next paragraph is interesting. He starts with TG and Dusk, then it is Albert (interestingly who he had previously said would be unlikely scum), and then STD and myself (who he encouraged to post more), and then Sweeny and Jordan. Lowell tops the list of town-ness, which I find very interesting indeed. I would like =Confused= to elaborate on this. The very fact he highlights some of Lowell's behaviour as "bad" in the next post seems to highlight my point here - Lowell doesn't seem at the most pro-town player in the game at all...[/url]

Fair enough, I should have mentioned at the time that several people were very close together in that list. For instance Jordan and Lowell are pretty interchangeable after what happened with Ryan yesterday and with Jordan's roleclaim. I feel that while those three were arguing during most of day one that the real scum were sitting back and letting them go at it with the hope that they would get themselves strung up (which almost did happen). This also ties into my thinking that TG is scum as he had one foot in each camp fanning the fames to a point.

Other interchangeable players are Save The Dragons and Aimee as they pretty much have the same posting habits and I would like to hear more from them.

Albert is still high up on my list because he could be a possible SK. I know I know, the WIFOM about the lyrics he posted being a death wish. His day one play just left me still feeling uneasy about him despite that he managed to out a scum. Although so far today I do see him as being quite helpful in discussion.

Ok. So are you saying that Lowell is up there because he was sort of "in the fore-front" in day 1?

[Aimee]

2. Save The Dragons

OverTheUnder was a nonety. STD replaced in early June, quite late into the game. He appears to have quite limited access (something I have noticed elsewhere as well as in this game), so I am pretty sure his lurking is not strategic.

His analysis is... strange. I have read games with STD in them, and I know he doesn't have the most orthodox playstyle, yet some things he says are completely not backed up. Mainly focusing on his suspicion list. He says Jordan, Primoris and Fraggle are scum. He never in his analysis mentions Primoris, and only makes one reference to Fraggle, which could most certainly not point to him as scum (he was asking for replacements to come in). So his scum list is a bit weird, to say the least. I want to know his reasons for thinking Primoris is scum.

Later he says that Fraggle's posts have had a "weird" vibe. He promises to give Fraggle a case if he goes after him, yet never does this. I still am interested in hearing this.

He made a reference to ABR's restriction not making sense in the flavor. What do you think of the current situation concerning his lyrics?

I find some of his posts interesting - they contain quite general statements, yet don't really explain them. He said at the end of day 1 that I was suspicious, but not scummy.

Also, why don't you want to confirm Jordan's role? Call me a noob, but doesn't that benefit the town?

He has also expressed he doesn't think Lowell is scum because this is his playstyle (I agree).

Overall, not much to go on. I find it quite suspicious he doesn't give explanations about Primoris or Fraggle (I would like to see them), and he seems to lurk quite a lot. More analysis is definitely appreciated. Despite this, I wouldn't put him as a major candidate to be scum at the moment, although it may become a possibility nearer the endgame.

[Aimee]

3. Albert B. Rampage

Firstly, I ain't analysing the lyrics. I don't see the point. Secondly, I am not particularly impressed with his post restriction tactic - I don't see how basically being unable to analyse and evaluate considerably helps the town. Despite this, as Albert says, his tactic did help to catch Fraggle, the Godfather. And that brings me to my major point - I don't think ABR is scum.

Here is his first post on day 2:

I'd like to start the day with a statement: I have no restriction. Honestly, I was bored and wanted to mix things up a little. I laughed my ass out when I succeeded in outing a mafia by setting this little plan in motion tough. Fragglescum trying to copy me in the middle of the day like that was quite ridiculous.

Of course, I can't prove anything and I expect most of you to be suspicious of me because of what I did day 1. I can't blame you. However, I do think that someone else deserves the spotlight today: Primoris.

Primoris has been keeping a very neutral stance, except with ryan who he went after like a madman(ryan is town btw, trustgossip).

Vote Primoris

After basically doing an analysis of Primoris and =Confused=, I found them in my eyes ot be very pro-town. The very fact he doesn't is quite surprising - I don't really see any confounding actions that point to Primoris being scum.

His second post is pretty dodgy, and basically explains how his tactic could have gone wrong. He says he tried quite valiantly to shift suspicion onto Fraggle, something hard to do by just using his rhyming. That could have seriously backfired. Tell me, Albert - if someone you considered incredibly pro-town had been near lynching, would you have stuck your neck out on the line and said that, and who you thought were suspicious - in effect breaking your restriction? If not, why?

I also dislike his second post because it says he thought Jordan, HH and ryan were pro-town. This is pretty obvious - HH and ryan were dead and confirmed, and Jordan has claimed! Pretty much a case of saying something that doesn't really say much. Furthermore, he says he has done re-reads that basically show he finds Primoris suspicious, but doesn't explain why, which I find very interesting.

After some theory and flavor related posts he comes back and says he finds myself and TG pro-town. I find this interesting - if TG was lynched and found to be scum, I would be suspicious of Albert. He also says he finds Sweeny pretty unreadable, something that is hard to argue with. However, with some scummy people around, targetting unreadable people right now isn't exactly the best strategy.

Some players he notably hasn't commented on - he seems to find Lowell suspicious, but hasn't commented at all on Dusk, STD and =Confused=, as well as possibly others. Albert, could you give us a list of suspicions, and reasons for your list?

Overall, I think this extract from a post by =Confused= really shows my views on Albert.

First off Albert's faking of a post restriction, while funny and entertaining for him has left me pulling my hair out. He pretty much has a clean slate as far as in game actions from the start of day two as we can't really pin him down on anything. We can try and figure out what we thought he meant with his votes, but then he can always come out and be all like... “You're just misrepresenting me and my intentions” and we won't really know if that truly is the case... so yeah, blah to your day one play Albert!

That said, I highly doubt he is apart of the scum group after Fraggle so humorously tried to copy his lyric posting ways. But still...BLAH!

I agree with this. It would be very illogical as scum for Albert to go quite so hard against Fraggle. This makes me think he is pro-town, even though his actions are somewhat dubious in places.

[Aimee]

Could Albert, Sweeny and Lowell please explain why I am their top suspect? Of course, I'm pretty sure Sweeny will say it is because of the fact I didn't vote for ten pages. Personally, I don't see that as a major scum tell.

Sweeny, if you look at any of my games, you will see that I am cautious with my votes. I don't see that as a scum-tell at all. And as far as I can see, Albert and Lowell have given absolutely no reason for their suspicion against me.

I find Albert's u-turn on me particularly suspicious at this point.

[Aimee]

Well, that's stupid. What I meant was that Jordan has claimed, and there is absolutely no reason at this point to doubt his claim. You are clearly focusing far too heavily on the semantics of the situation, and not understand my intent, which is far more important.

If this is why I am the most scummy in your eyes, it is very weak.

[Aimee]

I can see your point. i would like to remind you that I will be posting a similar analysis on every player.

[Aimee]

oSome of her early doubter speak their suspicions because she doesn't post enough, but she's been picking up the slack recently. I never thought her lack of posting was suspicious because normally when people try to stay under the radar they don't make lengthy posts when they surface, just comment in depth enough on the current one or two issue or post frequently but briefly. Aimee, however, often has her own opinions and posts long summaries. Also in her favor, she was an early voter on teffc who was replaced by Fraggle (115), and points her suspicions consitently at the player. She varies her targets, but how cetain has she been about players?

This is a good observation. Would you say, however, that this made me scummy?

oAll that said, I only agree with about half of her points most of the time; For instance, in post 168 she criticizes ryan's arguments as week when I saw him as one of the few being agressive and thorough. She also felt his tactic of pushing non-voters was unecessary without a deadline, but I disagree. If you've exhausted the same opinions it's important to question if some players are sitting on information or lurking so that they contribute something new to the conversation.

I unequivocally disagree with this.

oOne option I was exploring is that

Aimee

was lurking and realized she was more suspcious this way, but her explainations on the matter are often that she's busy or that she was gone on holiday. That is one of several things for which I can give her the benefit of the doubt. Now however, I'm tired of long summaries from her sparatically and want to here an actual debate.

This is definitely a point I can accept 100%. The reason I am doing long summaries right now is because I missed time, and I think this game is slowing down slightly. I want everyone to be 100% sure of my stance on every player.

oThings that make me suspicious of her is that she was a huge advocate for suspicion against ryan (who turned out to be pro-town) and calls a lot of his argument's weak when I saw it as exactly the opposite. Also, In post 396 she reconsiders her suspicons on ryan thinking maybe "Jordan is trying to link to Ryan so that if Ryan gets lynched, he looks more like a townie. I think their whole defense is totally bizarre, as is the case against Lowell. However, I see Jordan as scummier than Ryan at the moment.” This starts the first bandwagon on Jordan and then he is forced to claim RB Skorponok. Then, in her favor, she is careful not to add her vote on him for a -1 (405), but against her I think she would have done better to be an early voter for him after she saw her FoS take off a little because she hasn't taken sides for man save teffc/ Fraggle.

I don't really know what you want me to say here. I made my reasons for voting Fraggle and being suspicious of Jordan perfectly clear.

oThere are things against her. At one point she started posting a lot of questions to several players, but not posting what she makes of their answers. This could be a method of diverting attention from herself and appearing thoughtful, as opposed to actually searching out Scum.

I can't actually find when I did this. Could you please point me to where this happened? (Yes, I know I am dumb.)

oShe shrank away rather quickly when I called her on the possible Scum tactic of hounding me on the business of voting Fraggle. I thought that was strang and anxious.

This is mainly because I don't know how to reply to this without it becoming a Battle of WIFOM ("If I was scum, I would have killed/not killed so-and-so...")

[Aimee]

Mod: Can we get prods on =Confused=, Lowell, Save The Dragons and TrustGossip?

[Aimee]

I don't see how saying it is scummy to pressure people into voting (disagreeing with pressuring people to vote) is at all suspicious.

[Aimee]

4. Dusk

Replaced the non-existant deezr at page 19. She comes in, and posts about Jordan's claim, saying she thinks it is genuine, and points to evidence from the show to support this. I think that definitely sums up Dusk's role in the game so far - the professor. She is definitely the person so far who knows most about the theme.

Her third post finally comes in with some analysis, focusing almost entirely on Fragglescum, our now confirmed Mafia Godfather.

Fraggle, from what I read of his posts, doesn't strike me as Scum. He's just not a smart player. The first thing he alludes to is the interesing lyrics Albert posts, "If it is a certain restriction he has...then he probably has some sort of special role. I went back and read his posts/poems and they really hint at a possible vigilante or serial killer role. A lot of them are 'I'm all alone against the system' kind of writings....just a thought."
Then Sweeny rightly points out that no one would breadcrumb special roles especially if they're a SK. Opinions like these simply are far-fetched and don't help the Town, but I'm always more interested with finding Mafia than Lynching someone (forgive me) stupid.

Trust Gossip later mentions that Fraggle hasn't defended himself, establised "town-ness" despite early bandwagons. "I don't think having an urge to establish town-ness will help my image much in the long run anyway" is Fraggles answer. I find this ridiculous since this is a game where you are constantly matching wits and defending yourself, but does this say Scum? It sounds like bad stretegizing to me. But Scum esp. are working overtime to blend in, therefore they wouldn't say that. Then in the same post (post 227) Fraggle mentions that Primoris has been oddly quiet but negates himself by saying this isn't necessarily Scum tactic. Whether you're town or scum you should be arguing for hardcore evidence you believe is tell-tell. You can't hope to win this game by waiting for others to make something of random quotes from other poster.

Is everyone is just trying to get rid of Fraggle because these kind of moves won't help us out in the long run? I also realize he replaced a player that did much of the same kind of posting.

I actually agree that Fragglescum was playing quite stupidly in the game, as Teffc did similarly.

However, I would say it was possible (and now confirmed) that Fraggle could be playing dumb and be scum. She says "scum especially are working overtime to blend in," yet I don't really agree with this. There are more than one scum strategy - otherwise everyone would try to be loud and seek those trying to blend in, and the scum would be outed. So, in short there is more than one scum strategy, which doesn't seem to be grasped here.

Furthermore, she seemingly assumes it is his stupidity that was causing him to get votes, when I would say it was his scumminess that caused it. So, she seems to misinterpret a few things in this post. That said, I don't think this makes Dusk scum.

When I first started reviewing this game, Lowell seemed most like a Scum to me. He's not totally in the clear, but I would need more time to go in depth with him. I saw the wagon. Then I saw where the votes started coming off him and I think it's just that he questioned the validity of the bandwagon, to do it given it was Jordan and Ryan who started it. If we already went there I don't think we have time to hope for an extention or start from square one with him. I don't have something everyone else already didn't mention right now.

So,

Vote: FraggleScum

I would of course unvote if he gave us some proof that we're dealing with a Townie of course. A RC or CC is the way to do this, but that may not be the only way. The lyrics must stop though. He and Mr. Rampage are making me uneasy.

Re-reading this makes me think it is less scummy than before, just because I think she was already unsure of whether Fraggle was dumb or scum, and the deadline pushed her to vote. Dusk, could you confirm whether this was the case or not? I am assuming it was.

I dont particularly hold any issue with her saying she thought Lowell was scum (and then more town), but I would expect her to say something about this on day 2. Which she does do. No problems here.

I asked her to justify why she changed her stance, and she comes back with this reply:

Fraggle for the most part does simply seem like he's just not good at the game, but I can see everyone else's suspicions, too.

As I said before,

1) We don't have time to start from scratch.

2) I can't bring up anything that hasn't already been mentioned in the hunt for other scum yet

3) I can unvote if Fraggle says something that assuages suspicions.

To be more consistent and firm, Fraggle did say something that strikes me as desperate to shift attention from oneself. He mentions that Jordan claimed a villian for RB, but if Fraggle had read the opening post by the mod or really paid attention to Wikipedia, he'd understand the Maximals and Predacons are in a truce. He could have a Maximal Character, but he could also be an Alien Mafia member. Either way he has forgotten this detail.

She seems to now think he is suspicious. Seeing as I could see some indecisiveness with her first post, I now buy her explanations.

One thing I am not particularly happy about is this:

Furthermore, call me callous, but if Fraggle is Townie I don't think he's a Role or a player we'll miss. What Doc, Cop, or RB says such things anyway?

This is just pure speculation. She makes it out like power-roles play perfectly and do not make any mistakes, when that simply isn't the case. To rule Fraggle out of being a power role just because he wasn't playing particularly well seems rather odd, to say the least.

Her only other post on day 1 of any use is to slam Fraggle's claim. She definitely knows the theme very well, which could be very advantageous.

She comes back with her first content related post (although previously having a few about game theory), about Lowell on Day 2.

These were copied and pasted from my notes. I'm so lazy. I'm sorry it took me so long... anyway as I've been saying Lowell is terribly suspicous to me

•Lowell retaliates with a vote for ryan who didn’t like the bandwagon on the newbie potential Townie
•Says screw this and votes someone who randomly voted him a while back
•Calls ryan’s strategy to Lynch quiet people “a dumb point,” “opportunism” Maybe a quiet person is in on it with him because lurkers can be detrimental, thus Ryan's strategy is not unfounded.
•Good Recap by Sweeny on 175, better one on 230 by Jordan
•Jordan Sweeny, and Ryan agree Lowell is scum. Over the Under, Ryan, JordanA24 all vote
•Got rid of bandwagon by questioning the validity of the bandwagon and not defending his scummy posts
o1) "I wanted to get OTU's attention with that vote. Really, this bandwagon is so stupid it makes me crazy. One RANDOM vote (his only post so far this game), followed by ryan and jordan scumteam teaming up to get me to 3 votes. Ridiculous. I want OTU to OWN his vote on me or get lost. People won't realize just how scummy this bandwagon is until the random votes leave."
o2) "I do find it strange that ryan and jordan would buddy up together so much if they were scum. But really, that's the ultimate in WIFOM (ooh, scum would NEVER be so obvious, so we're not scum). More importantly, I really think they thought I would be a quick, easy lynch and that everyone would rally around killing me, thus making their like-mindedness not so obvious in the midst of a mob. As it is, they can't get people to vote for me and they're becoming increasinly exposed." It's not terribly strange now that Ryan is a dead townie.

Her reasons for finding Lowell suspicious are, to me, not strong. Dusk, I would advice you read games that Lowell has completed. This is his playstyle, and I think that attacking people over playstyle is suspicious (although I am pretty sure you don't/didn't know Lowell's playstyle, so it was a newbie error).

In addition, I think it's WIFOM to say Lowell killed ryan. How do you know whoever killed him was thinking "killing ryan is going to cause suspicion to fly towards Lowell"? In short, how do you know Lowell isn't being framed? That is why I dislike speculation over nightkills that reflects blame onto living ones.

The second part of this post:

Now...

Other Thoughts:
I am not going to defend my vote for Fraggle further after this. I'm a little irritated that my catch on him is what got a couple of people to move off the fense. It turned out to be a good move for the Town and I look like Mafia for it. Okhams (sp?) Razor says the simplest explaination is normally the correct one. Can't it just be that I said what I meant and with my knowledge of the theme we got the Godfather Lynched on the first Day? It wasn't really a 180. I knew something was amiss with his posts. I thought it was just really bad playing. It turned out to be very bad Mafia slip-ups. I did realize a bit of desperation in Fraggles posts afterwards that I felt strongly enough about to leave my vote on. When Fraggle said he was Terrorsaur it was official. (I couldn't understand why he didnt just choose a Maximal. Too safe?)

Anyway, I think we could find more evidence on whom to Lynch next by looking to see if ryan and HackerHack were onto anyone. Maybe the Mafia felt most threatened by them. There's another point against Lowell.

Confused, thank you for that in depth analysis! I think Trust Gossip is looking incredibly suspicious, now. His/her posts were inconsistent in regards to teffc wh was replaced by Fraggle. Your thinking seems to be along the lines of mine in that looking at players in retrospect will give us new evidence with which to Lynch Scum. Still, I've been meaning to do this for a while--

VOTE: Lowell

I can understand how it was frustrating to defend yourself against your early switch - it must have been frustrating (since, in my eyes, you didn't really switch), and because I was probably the leader of this suspicion, I want to apologise.

That said, I don't like the paragraph I bolded. It's more WIFOM. How do you know that the Mafia merely wanted us to think that? How do we even know the Mafia killed them (since their real target could have been protected, or Jordan/other could have role-blocked them)? That said, I'm pretty sure this is a newbie tell, since Dusk laster asked what WIFOM was, implying she genuinely didn't know about it. I am willing to give the benefit of doubt for the moment.

She then gives a recap of Sweeny. I don't actually like recaps that are devoid of analysis, but Dusk's contains analysis, so I'm happy enough, and a conclusion (which is at the start). I think one thing she says is that "Sweeny seems incredibly pro-town". There are people like that (Patrick and Ripley for example), so when they are scum, they can be incredibly difficult to catch. Dusk seems to realise this, because she says he cannot be completely trusted.

I like the way she unvotes Lowell (giving reasons), and the way she votes for TrustGossip. She definitely had reasoning. She has recently got behind the suspicions against me, giving reasoning (which I don't 100% agree with), and saying she could get behind an Aimee wagon. I'm not particularly happy about this, since her case seems to mainly revolve around lurking, but some of her reasoning has been not too bad.

So overall, I'm taking a bit of a 180 on Dusk - I think for the moment she is pro-town, although newbish. I like her theme knowledge, and I think that out of everyone she would be the most useful for assessing roleclaims. Is that reason for keeping her around? No, but seeing as she isn't setting off any alarm bells at the moment, I think she's fine.

One thing that is worrying me slightly is the way she hasn't given a list of her suspicions like others have, and her non-committal nature to some players is rather alarming. Whilst I definitely agree she has made her opinions on TrustGossip, Lowell, Sweeny and myself clear, I am a bit worried about the way she has said literally nothing on some players, like =Confused=, Save TheDragons etc. This is definitely something I would like to see her do in the near future.

[Aimee]

5. Sweenytodd

Sweeny is someone who has been, for many people, including myself, seen as highly pro-town. I know several players like this, and the way they act so pro-town ends up making them unreadable. So, I'm going to be delving a bit deeper into his posts to try and spot anything even remotely scummy.

First up is his opening analysis. As expected, it's pretty flawless - lots of good points. I agree with every single point he makes in this post, which definitely gives me confidence that we are on the same wavelength. Despite this, I don't exactly like his conclusion:

I am also suspicious of Teffc but I want to wait on a replacement... Most of Teffc's posts have made little sense to me so maybe another player will have a fresh perspective. I also would like to hear from Jordan about why he is so quick to defend Ryan and what the case is against Lowell, Your post #114 is pretty weak so if there is more of a case please point me to it.

People I feel neutral about are almost everybody... I can't read Albert well with his post restriction which frustrates me, I liked Aimee's summary but would like to see some follow up to it.

Person I feel to be town: Hackerhuck... throughout the game I have read his posts as very strongly town and looking for scum, he is the only one I have a strong feel about...

I get an odd feeling here - most players he basically feels are neutral, which is quite a non-committal stance. I'm going to give him plus points for his HackerHuck comment, and minus points for his "I feel neutral about... almost everybody," which has a level of non-committalness that makes me uneasy. I'm also slightly leary of the way he backed down from ryan's pressure concerning sweeny putting him at -2. However, my initial thoughts are that he is incredibly pro-town - I am really nitpicking here.

That said, he is very consistent, and is very helpful, asking good questions and following them up effectively. He makes a case against Teffc and Jordan, and defends Lowell from ryan and Jordan. I agree with all his posts. One thing that worries me is that he hasn't given his thoughts on every player coherently - there's been a lot about ryan, Lowell, Teffc, with less on some of the quieter players (including myself and TG), even though he tends to ask everyone questions. I'm not concerned he was on the Jordan wagon seeing as he justified his suspicions very clearly and concisely.

He was, as Lowell said an early voter of Fraggle, but even at the time I worried that he was sitting back after he voted, which was why I asked him how he felt about it. His response was good and I was reassured.

After being absent for what seems like genuine real-life reasons, he comes back and (finally) gives clear thoughts on each player. I generally agree with his analysis of every player (with the exception of my own and Dusk). I don't really see how not voting for 10 pages is a particularly bad scum-tell - I am genuinely cautious with my vote. I also do not see how Dusk is the most pro-town - even though I think she is pro-town, I would not call her the most pro-town.

So, overall, I find Sweeny to be very pro-town like I expected. Although I have a few minor issues (the way he labelled most players neutrally in his opening analysis, and a few issues with myself and Dusk in his most recent one), I don't really see this as an inherent scumtell.

However, I would not at all clear Sweeny - I've got my eye on him, because as I have said before, people who always appear pro-town like this can become dangerous later, especially if everyone begins to trust them too much. At the moment, I do have no real issues other than the above with Sweeny. I think he is pro-town.

[Aimee]

Gah! I never knew I was causing such a hold-up!

I'll try and be on it. Expect one analysis today, but em... can't you guys do something in the mean time. Like er... discuss my other analysises, or such like?

[Aimee]

TrustGossip will need a replacement. He hasn't posted on the site since July 7.

[Aimee]

Gah! I'm going to try desperately to get things up before the deadline. I'm not sure I am going to have lots of time, this coming week could be quite busy.

I'll try and get an analysis of Jordan's Day 2 behaviour up by the end of tonight (if anyone wants Day 1 behaviour, then just say it, and I'll try and get something together), and I'll do Lowell on Monday. Hope we have a replacement by then.

Mod: Could we get a vote count?

[Aimee]

Mod: Could we get some more prods, please? No one other than Dusk, Jordan and myself has posted since Wednesday.

[Aimee]

6. JordanA24

Because the deadline is quite near, and since Jordan's pre-claim behaviour has already been discussed in rather great detail, so unless anyone has major objections, I'm only going to focus on his behaviour post-claim.

After his claim, where there were notable doubts from many, his posts show a definite suspicion of Fraggle (a clear point in his favour). His Day 2 early suspicions centre around Primoris, who he votes for early on, due to his unexplained early ryan vote.

I don't have much else to say mainly because he has made his suspicions quite clear - he is suspicious of TG and STD, and not suspicious of Lowell and myself.

So overall, I don't really have much of an impression on Jordan at the moment. I'm slightly concerned about the fact he hasn't said lots about anyone except TG and STD today, so I would definitely appreciate a more in depth analysis of players such as Dusk, Confused and Sweeny, whom he has barely mentioned all game. My gut is saying pro-town, and his actions post-claim do not refute this.

[Aimee]

I'm working on my analysis of TrustGossip. I'm quite urked that no one else is really contributing to the discussion. You could, for example, discuss my posts about other players. There have been a few.

[Aimee]

6. TrustGossip

He starts off with a bout of lurking, finally coming in a content-filled post, which labels Teffc as the scummiest, and FoSes Lowell and Primoris. I've already explained why I consider Primoris to be town, so I disagree with him here. He seems to not really have any concrete suspicions other than about Teffc, who is the only person he really goes against heavily. As for the rest of this early post... meh, but he doesn't actually say much, it's pretty contentless.

He takes incredible issue with Teffc being replaced, the following post being an obvious example.

I'm always worried about a replacement for possible mafia. It involves reanalysing a playstyle, and if the replacement is smart, they'll be able to absolve teffc of anything and adopt a fervently pro-town status when it was obvious teffc couldn't handle her scum role.

As others have said, replacements are an almost inevitable part of the game. I don't see any pro-town reason to be so against the replacements. The replacement will have the same role as their predecessor - even if they play smart, it's unlikely they will be unstoppable. TG vehemently over-estimates the problem of the replacement here.

He seems rather against Sweeny putting ryan at -2, which seems odd, since -2 isn't that dangerous. His justification for this is that Teffc's replacement could do something volatile, but this still makes no sense. How could Teffc's replacement make two votes? His logic is rather bizarre here.

He also wants to make it seem like he is "the flagbearer of the case against Teffc." This is probably a tactic for distancing that he could use later on.

Later he makes another bizarre statement that still rubs me the wrong way.

I tend to lean heavily against the first bandwagon being accurate. ryan, you made a few good points in the beginning against Lowell's incendiary and uncooperative playstyle, but your constant misinterpretation of people's posts is eroding my trust in you.

What the hell? How is the first wagon always accurate? Seems like a way of just shoving suspicion against ryan (the top vote getter at that point), without actually saying anything. Scummy. All his posts are pretty non-committal, for example, his post 13, which gives fairly bare suspicions of everyone at that point, and casts the net of suspicion fairly wide.

One thing I find notable is that he doesn't take a side on the Lowell vs Jordan/ryan debate, finding both sides suspicious. I find that incredibly non-committal here. Also note his post 20, where he suddenly begins to say the case on ryan is "tenuous" and finds ryan "over-whelmingly pro-town", which is completely different to his previous thoughts on both of them.

I need to finish this tomorrow morning. Sorry this is a bit rushed. I am up to post 25.

[Aimee]

I can quickly finish. Post 25 = not very useful, justification of his Jordan vote. Post 26 = narrative and suspicion of ryan, which I don't get very much.

He notably was not on the Fraggle wagon, even though he proclaimed earlier he was the "flagbearer".

Pretty sure he is scum. He is the best lynch for today.

[Aimee]

Just in case people wonder where I am, I may have a bit of limited access coming up.

Will be gone from August 4th to September 1st in the French Riviera.

I'll be studying in a college there so I should have access for several
afternoons each week, yet probably not everyday.

I should probably be gone from Saturday to Tuesday/Wednesday. Chaotic_diablo, I would request that I don't get replaced.

Also, I'll get some content up before I go, guys. Promise. Luckily I will be leaving after the deadline.

[Aimee]

8. Lowell

Right, I've not got much time, but here goes.

Lowell starts off by making what seem to be very random early game comments. Absolutely nothing out of the norm here, and I'm not supremely concerned.

I don't really have much to say about his day 1 behaviour. It's pretty flat out against ryan, Jordan and Albert, to some extent, yet his overall thoughts on lots of players are missing.

I'm more interested in his Day 2 behaviour, mainly this:

Innocent:
Lowell
Albert
STD
Jordan

Potentially Not Innocent:
Aimee
Dusk
=Confused=
Sweenytodd
TrustGossip

No reasons given for anything. I'm particularly confused about why Albert is in the innocent section, since Lowell was pretty against him until then.

Most of Lowell's play thus far has been gut-related. I've seen this in some other games too - I personally find it to be quite sloppy play, but it's his playstyle, and he ain't gonna change. Nonetheless, I don't find his play particularly outright - in other words, I don't think his play so far has had any real indication on his alignment.

I think a good indication of Lowell's alignment would be a TrustGossip lynch, since he seems to have tried to form a counterwagon against TG onto Confused, along with STD. I'd look more towards them if TG turned up as scum.

[Aimee]

Here's an unofficial vote count.

TrustGossip – 3 (=Confused=, JordanA24, Dusk)
=Confused= – 3 (ABR, STD, Lowell)
Aimee – 1 (Sweeny)

Not Voting: Aimee, TG

I will definitely be away until the deadline - this will be my last time on until probably Tuesday (I'll be tanning in France for a while!), so I'm going to place my vote now:

Vote: TrustGossip

Not only is he the scummiest in my eyes, but it would be the most informative lynch - if he is scum we can look at those trying to form a counter-wagon on =Confused=. If town, we would look at everyone particularly who voted for TG, and pushed his wagon. So overall, I see no real disadvantages with lynching him.

[Aimee]

Just to confirm, the Voks are the enemies?

And the Maximals are all good?

[Aimee]

Also, we cannot yet lynch TG. We need to throughly discuss things.

[Aimee]

Should have a response by Monday or Tuesday.

[Aimee]

Fraggle Thoughts:

Confused = Not around.
ABR = Difficult to get actual thoughts since he faked his restriction, but he seems rather obviously against him, because of his voting habits.
Dusk = Non-committal attitude revolving around the "he`s not scum" but then voting for him issue.
Jordan = Negative, but not so much as others.
Lowell = Anti-Fraggle.

Sweeny Thoughts:

Confused = He was relatively low on her suspicion list, but she says nothing else.
ABR = In one post, says he is suspicious because he is unreadable, but later calls him the most overwhelmingly pro-town. Could be judged as distancing.
Dusk = Considered him incredibly pro-town.
Jordan = No clear cut opinion, but it seems that he doubted Sweeny`s suspicion against me, therefore likely didn`t think of him as so pro-town as others.
Lowell = Didn`t find him confirmed but said he was unlikely to be scum.


TG Thoughts:

Confused = Has notably has been against him since her arrival.
ABR = Calls him pro-town early in Day 2, then he moves to the middle of his suspicion list, but later asks why TG scum is still alive, implying he thinks he is scummy.
Dusk = Seems anti-TG, but doesn`t give an OMG clear cut opinion as far as I can see.
Lowell = Anti-TG.

Let`s look at some of the more interesting ones. Dusk seemed probably the most for Fraggle, although she was more non-committal than pro-Fraggle. Dusk was the most pro-Sweeny in the game. Dusk hasn`t given a hugely clear opinion on TG, and therefore could be riding the bandwagon. Sweeny considered Dusk to be the most pro-town of all.

FOS: Dusk

, I`m not liking the relationship I`m seeing here.

Also suspicion to Confused after the way Sweeny and Confused ignored each other all of yesterday, putting each other in low-neutral positions on each others`scum listings.

Also suspicion to ABR for his Sweeny and TG thoughts. I don`t like the way he accuses me of a relationship with Sweeny, when evidently Confused and Dusk are far more guilty.

[Aimee]

Also suspicion to Confused after the way Sweeny and Confused ignored each other all of yesterday, putting each other in low-neutral positions on each others`scum listings.

While this is technically true. it's also a slight misrepresentation of what actually happened yesterday.

It's true that I put Sweeny low down in my suspicions but I would hardly say I ignored him. He posted all of twice since I replaced so he just wasn't around in the game when I was. I called for prods on him and wanted contribution but I could hardly talk about him when he wasn't posting anything could I?

Oh I agree, but the very fact sweeny had nothing to say to you either is more telling. Although i agree it doesn`t have much indication on alignment.

Also, I really want others to post. I am, quite honestly, quite annoyed that only one person has posted since Monday, and again it seems that like yesterday my posts are keeping things going. And I have limited access. So, can everyone pick up the pace a bit, please?

[Aimee]

I notice Dusk was suggesting that the cop (if there was one) should maybe claim.

I was pondering this earlier, and wasn't 100% sure. If there was a cop, they are likely to have 2 investigation results now, either clearing two people, or having a guilty or two. This could be very useful, but at the same time, it could be too early for the cop.

I'd like other people's opinions of this, since I think this could be an important issue.

Similarly, I was thinking about it, and I think that there are more disadvantages with Lowell claiming than advantages.

Also, Skruffs, your post to me implies that you are a Maximal.

[Aimee]

I notice Dusk was suggesting that the cop (if there was one) should maybe claim.

I was pondering this earlier, and wasn't 100% sure. If there was a cop, they are likely to have 2 investigation results now, either clearing two people, or having a guilty or two. This could be very useful, but at the same time, it could be too early for the cop.

I'd like other people's opinions of this, since I think this could be an important issue.

Similarly, I was thinking about it, and I think that there are more disadvantages with Lowell claiming than advantages.

Also, Skruffs, your post to me implies that you are a Maximal.

If the cop had two guilty's I would expect them out already as I think we only have two guilty people left, I don't understand how this could be "too early"

Lowell's claim was pretty obvious and narrows down potential scum hiding places. Looking at it now, I can only see it making things difficult for the scum because of this. What disadvantages do you see with it Aimee?

Skruffs: So Jordan is your number one suspect because of his win condition? What are your thoughts on the rest of the players?

And if the cop had 2 innocents? Remember, the second killing party (most likely to be an SK), could have investigation immunity.

I was referring to Lowell name claiming being a bad idea.

[Aimee]

And your thoughts on the other players, Skruffs?

[Aimee]

I think TG was the most scummy and we should lynch Skruffs. My vote is already on him, and honestly, after re-reading on the fly, I really encourage everyone to vote for Skruffs because I'm pretty sure.

A case would be nice. I'm having trouble knowing why I should vote for him with someone merely shouting "TG IS SCUM!"

[Aimee]

Oh, honestly.

I think this tireless discussion about different win conditions is slowing us down a lot more.

I'd much rather focus on actual scum-hunting - most importantly I'd like to question why Dusk has put her vote on Skruffs without any apparent reasoning today. Care to explain?

Also, not nearly enough attention has been put on Albert. Apparently nobody else cares about the fact he keeps changing his story.

Major FoS: Albert

Looking back on Day 1, is there anything stopping Albert's behaviour as being Mafia related? Surely, Fraggle fell into a bit of a trap, but I don't think that was 100% by Albert, and I'm not sure it rules him out as Mafia. It certainly does not rule him out of being SK (which I'm more worried about, especially after he said vaguely that Lowell could be neutral).

However, is Day 2 behaviour is completely scummy. I've already explained his bizarre relationship with Sweeny. But he also accuses me, straight after saying I was town-like, same with TrustGossip.

More importantly, however,

he has NEVER given any reason for suspecting TrustGossip, and has simply been crying "TG is scum!" over and over.

This is scummy.

[Aimee]

Uh Aimee, Albert did give reason for his suspicions but even he admits just now they were poor.

I unequivocally disagree with this. Please check back on all of Albert's posts before simply jumping to his defence like that. You will see a significant change in opinion - from "I don't think TG is scum/he isn't a priority right now" to "WILL AIMEE PLEASE POST HER ANALYSIS OF TRUSTGOSSIP SCUM?"

How is he so clearly mafia the first day but you just now realize it?

No.

People were ruling Albert out as Mafia because of his Day 1 antics. I don't see why this at all rules him out.

However, I'm more sure that he's an SK - on Day 1, he basically got away with making any proper opinion, and his wobbling around yesterday strikes me as quite opportunistic.

Is this only OMGUS. "However, is Day 2 behaviour is completely scummy. I've already explained his bizarre relationship with Sweeny. But he also accuses me, straight after saying I was town-like, same with TrustGossip."

Er, no.

I'm not quite sure what your definition of OMGUS actually is. But it certainly isn't the above.

Try again?

[Aimee]

Also, after how well suspicion lists worked yesterday, I think we should do them again. Not only are they useful, but they might stimulate some people - Lowell, for example, to actually contribute.

[Aimee]

Sorry guys, but I have no choice here.

I'm the cop.

I have an innocent on Skruffs, who I investigated Night 2), and also Jordan, who I investigated Night 1.

Lots of my posts confirm this, if you need any confirmation. I've breadcrumbed at least once, maybe more times. I'll dredge it all out if you need it.

Also, with Lowell's claim, we can only choose =Confused=, Dusk or Albert to be lynched today.

[Aimee]

Confused to claim?

(Though he hasn't posted in-game, or indeed on-site, for 5 days)

She said she would have some limited access.

[Aimee]

I say we lynch either Albert or Dusk.

[Aimee]

I would say block confused, investigate dusk. Dusk seems less likely scum, to me. If the cop dies, lynch dusk, and if dusk is town, block the mason?

Sounds like a plan.

I'd like =Confused= to check in, however, before anything happens.

Also, I have potentially a 9 day absense coming up, but I'll get my choice in early, just in case.

[Aimee]

vote: Albert

Good enough for me.

[Aimee]

Aimee will be unable to post due to issues

he

doesn't feel necessary to reveal to you players since

he

didn't post in this thread.

He's

alienating you people, you should feel offended.

The good news is that

he'll

only be gone for the weekend. The bad news is that it's possible

he

won't be able to post until October 1. Bummer.

???

;_;

[Aimee]

Limited access starting now.

[Aimee]

Folks, let's ignore Dusk and ABR. They are just trying to spread confusion, here, really. I would like to hear =Confused.

Perhaps some prodding is indeed in order.

[Aimee]

I don't like the way people are focusing on Confused.

I want Albert lynched and Dusk roleblocked tonight, that's my main plan.

[Aimee]

Oh my god yay!

So happy I won that, I put so much work into this game doing analysis and things.

Good job everyone for finishing the job today, this was a great win.

I didn't think it was Confused, I really did think it was Dusk. But oh well.

Thanks for modding chaotic_diablo!