Private Topics Discussion (Now with Mish Mash)

[RichardGHP]

What, or who, is to stop me using PT's for Mish Mash purposes if I wanted to?

[RichardGHP]

I do the randomization way before sign ups even take place. Removes pretty much all temptation to tinker with the assignment. If you get a list which is not strictly desirable (e.g. the entire scum team taking up one single section), you will obviously want to reroll that. On that basis, I am not entirely opposed to zoraster's example a). But I think that altering the distribution any more specifically than that is just not good modding practice. Having said that, it absolutely should not be incumbent on the mod to prove that the distribution is random.

[RichardGHP]

I do the randomization way before sign ups even take place. Removes pretty much all temptation to tinker with the assignment. If you get a list which is not strictly desirable (e.g. the entire scum team taking up one single section), you will obviously want to reroll that. On that basis, I am not entirely opposed to zoraster's example a). But I think that altering the distribution any more specifically than that is just not good modding practice. Having said that, it absolutely should not be incumbent on the mod to prove that the distribution is random.

what do you mean a single section?

I mean, if the scum team is taking up three spots on the list right next to each other, for example. Or any such situations where the distribution isn't considered to "look" particularly random.

[RichardGHP]

I do the randomization way before sign ups even take place. Removes pretty much all temptation to tinker with the assignment. If you get a list which is not strictly desirable (e.g. the entire scum team taking up one single section), you will obviously want to reroll that. On that basis, I am not entirely opposed to zoraster's example a). But I think that altering the distribution any more specifically than that is just not good modding practice. Having said that, it absolutely should not be incumbent on the mod to prove that the distribution is random.

what do you mean a single section?

I mean, if the scum team is taking up three spots on the list right next to each other, for example. Or any such situations where the distribution isn't considered to "look" particularly random.

Of course now that you've posted this, if I were one of your players I'd totally use this to clear somebody if two scum flipped on either side of them.

Do so at your peril. It's not like I can't make exceptions to my own rules.

[RichardGHP]

Why would you not trust the mod?

[RichardGHP]

I think it was you, zoraster, who talked about mods rerolling until they get a setup that they think "looks right". That's more or less what I was meaning; I would do it in some circumstances and I believe a lot of mods do it all the time, and it is not something which personally bothers me. It's altering specific players that I oppose (in non-bastard games, anyway). The idea that someone might now go out of their way to avoid my games is a bit saddening.

P. Edit: Zachrules, that is just my natural inclination. It's not based on mathematical reasoning, it's just the way I think. If I were a player in that game, I would be looking for scum outside of Player 2 by the same reasoning. And as I said, players would nonetheless be unwise to use this discussion to clear someone because a) there's no clearly defined line separating what I would and would not reroll, and b) I can make exceptions in either case.

Also, I think "manipulation" is an overly strong word. It is certainly not appropriate to describe what I do. I often reroll setups a few times anyway to get what I view as the best possible distribution. Again, this is not based on mathematical reasoning, just my thought process. For the same reason you might shake a pair dice for longer than usual or shuffle a deck of cards more thoroughly than usual, if you want to make sure that the result is "more random" (don't yell at me).

[RichardGHP]

Also, I think "manipulation" is an overly strong word. It is certainly not appropriate to describe what I do. I often reroll setups a few times anyway to get what I view as the best possible distribution. Again, this is not based on mathematical reasoning, just my thought process. For the same reason you might shake a pair dice for longer than usual or shuffle a deck of cards more thoroughly than usual, if you want to make sure that the result is "more random" (don't yell at me).

Just jumping in on this:
What you are describing is absolutely manipulating otherwise random results. It doesn't matter how much you shake the dice, the chance of any given outcome never changes. What you're saying is "oh I got three 2's, not random enough try again". Your dice and card examples are to assure randomness before getting a result. The modding practice you're describing is changing things

after

a result.

I already told you I know randomness is assured from the outset. In my mind, however, it is possible to have different levels of randomness. It is how I work. Don't like it, don't join my games. Also, you're misquoting my example, but since I am phoneposting I will let that slide.

[RichardGHP]

Actually, I no longer care enough to keep debating this. I have defended my position as best I can and it's not going to change anytime soon, so the way I see it, we're just going around in circles.

Edit: In case I phrased it poorly earlier, my view is that while all random distributions are mathematically equal, some outcomes are more desirable than others. I get that the "done thing" is to stick with the first roll you get until the end, but I am not afraid to reroll if I get what I view as an undesirable outcome, and I stand by that absolutely.

[RichardGHP]

Just to be clear, any rerolling is done

BEFORE

signups. I would never change the assignments after that, so it's not like I'm playing favourites, if Jake from State Farm gave that impression.

[RichardGHP]

Editing permissions are decided at the forum level. It would be very little work to turn them on for all PTs, but then, I don't see why someone should be allowed to edit posts in PTs more than they should be allowed to in a mafia game.

Because a mafia game is entirely public information. Prohibition of editing in QT's has never, to my knowledge, been standard.