Mini 432 - RajÔÇÖs Freaktown IV (Raj's Ladies): GAME OVER

[BillyTwilight]

RandomVote: Panzerjager

cuz that name is sweet.

[BillyTwilight]

Panzerjager, can you please respond to my accusation of your name being sweet.

[BillyTwilight]

I hate lurker hunting. Since it seems we are getting some meat now, I'll

unvote

for now.

[BillyTwilight]

Lurking is at best a non-tell. Activity is good for the game, it gives more opportunity for people to keep scum from hiding; however, I find that often opportunistic scum will attack lurkers because it makes them look active and lurkers are an easy target. Going after people who lurk during the random voting phase is even worse.

FoS: Lawrencelot, Panzerjager

.

I am completely ok with Scotmany's excuse for lurking. IH, I don't like yours. For the record, did you receive a pm from the mod alerting you to the beginning of the game? If so, why did you wait to post till after being warned about your post count not meeting requirements. It is one thing to avoid the random voting phase from distaste; it's another to not post at all. I just want clarification of this on the record.

[BillyTwilight]

BillyTwilight, I never attacked the lurkers for lurking I attacked them for their bulshit excuses for lurking. Lurking is not inherently scummy but when coupled with a terrible reason or a bad reason, it can be looked to as scummy. If Scot had just said, I'm lurking because it is my strategy, I would have nodded and been like as much as I don't like it, I have to live with it. And as you've contradicted yourself, you said that activity gives the town information meaning inactivity withholds it. Then you said that it isn't scummy because scum attack lurkers because they want to seem active. So if lurking is scummy and attacking lurkers is scummy, what should we do? Ignore it? No, their are very few actions that are scummy in and of itself, it is the motivation and the agenda behind the action that makes an action scummy. May I ask why you agree with Scotmany's excuse?


And again to Billy, if everyone lurked during the random stage, would you find that acceptable? The point is lurking is bad form and can be easily used by scum to withhold information.

FoS:BillyTwilight

Still have my eye on Scot and IH.

You are misinterpreting what I said. I

never

contradicted myself. I said at best lurking is a non-tell. I completely agree with anyone who says that lurking is bad for town. Lurking = less information = bad for town. I said as much in my post. This DOES NOT mean that lurking=scum. I never said it does. My point is still valid. I find it more likely for scum to attack lurkers because they are easy meat. I FoS'ed you and Lawrencelot because of this. I think lurking is very bad for town, especially after the random voting phase. However, I think that its bad not because lurking is scummy, but because lurking lets

active scum

appear more town.

As for why I believe Scot - he said he doesn't like the random voting stage of the game. Seeing that typically at best the random voting stage can be amusing and at worst it can be downright boring, I have no problem with his excuse for not posting. In fact, I find it less likely that he is scum because of it, because I would think that most scum would post more in order to avoid a lurker tag. FYI I FoSed you based on your FoS of Scot. FoS is generally considered stronger than IGMEOY. It seems to me that you reserved the stronger suspicion for Scot when I felt his excuse for lurking was much better than IH's, which could be an outright lie. Why then, if you are pointing fingers because of peoples excuses for lurking, did you push stronger suspicion on the person with the better excuse for lurking?

As for the question about "if everyone lurked during the random voting stage, etc.", I find this ludicrous. It's both a loaded question and a straw man argument. I never said it was good to lurk, in fact I said it was bad. You specifically twisted my argument to get away from the fact that you are attacking the easiest players to attack and to make my argument look different than what it was. I'll go ahead and give you an answer though. In the unlikely case that no one posted at the beginning of a game, the mod would either abandon the game or institute a deadline to force posting, or modkill players to make an example. The point is s/he would handle it the way s/he saw fit. It's the mod's job to make people post when there is an entire set of players not playing, and freak has done that.

Now, I want to know why you FoSed Scot for a legitimate reason for not posting during the random phase but only put your eye on IH. I want to know why "its my strategy" is a better reason for lurking than "I get bored in the random voting phase". I want to know why you tried to turn my post into one that supported lurking. And I want you to answer for why you think lurking is scummy when inevitably in almost every mafia game someone gets voted if not outright lynched for lurking, and any scum player worth his salt would go out of his way to avoid a lurker tag. And finally, why is lurker hunting something that scum would not do?

[BillyTwilight]

Which I believe is the problem with this game so far

vote ih

Now, Panzer, if you want a lurker scumtell then this is it. logicticus has only one post without even a random vote, rejoins the game and insta-votes a lurker based on your logic, ignoring the fact that he has contributed less than even IH up till that post. Another problem with lurker hunting is that it gives opportunistic scum an excuse to join a bandwagon with very little reason to do so.

logicticus, could you please give a

reason

for your vote of IH, considering that you contribution to this game has been nil?

[BillyTwilight]

And again to Billy, if everyone lurked during the random stage, would you find that acceptable?

If everyone lurked during the random stage, we'd never get out of the random stage....

Which I believe is the problem with this game so far

vote ih

Which I believe is the problem with this game so far

vote ih

Now, Panzer, if you want a lurker scumtell then this is it. logicticus has only one post without even a random vote, rejoins the game and

insta-votes a lurker based on your logic

, ignoring the fact that he has contributed less than even IH up till that post. Another problem with lurker hunting is that it gives opportunistic scum an excuse to join a bandwagon with very little reason to do so.

logicticus, could you please give a

reason

for your vote of IH, considering that you contribution to this game has been nil?

i just want to record to state that this is an assumption (and an incorrect one at that).

logicticus, given the chain of events that lead up to your vote, can you please explain how I misinterpreted or "assumed" something about your motives? You plainly stated that the problem with the game so far (as you saw it) was lurking in the random phase, then you voted for someone who was a lurker in the random phase. Not to mention that you stated it in such a fashion that it seemed you agreed with Mariyta, and thus with Panzer. When asked to elaborate on why you voted IH, you declined. If that wasn't the reason you voted IH, why didn't you elaborate on it when asked? Your answer of "to generate discussion" doesn't swing with me, considering you didn't add anything to the discussion other than a vote.

[BillyTwilight]

A lot of discussion since I last posted. Here is my take on the current topics.

@ Lawrencelot: What is the point of voting lurkers if you state as a prerequisite that you wont lynch them for lurking? The vote becomes pointless if it has no teeth. Asking lurkers to post, asking for a prod, asking for a replacement accomplishes more to get a player to post than bandwagoning them and at the same time saying we won't lynch you even though we are voting you.

@Panzerjager: What evidence do you have that Lawrencelot is a SK, or the like? He has pretty much done everything that you have done except he uses votes instead of FoSes to apply pressure. He has done this to almost all the same people that you have, tbh. Also, why do you think logicticus is distancing from IH? Why not LL or yourself? or me? Or anyone else who has suspected IH? And why at this stage in the game would logicticus feel like he needs to distance himself from IH, considering there are no strong links between any players and IH is not currently in trouble of being lynched or even bandwagoned?

@BJ: I agree with scotmany; we are past the bulk of the random voting stage, and we need more explanation for a vote than you have given.

@logicticus: I'm gonna go out on a limb and bet that the discussion that has been generated since your vote of IH has been the discussion that you were intending when you explained your vote. I think that a lot of people have been voting you rather hastily to be honest. I am beginning to wonder about the bandwagon forming on you, and at least about some of the people on it.

@the general topic: I found logicticus vote to be hypocritical and slightly bandwagoning; his defense of the vote has been less than forthcoming, but not deserving of a bandwagon, imo. He had lurked and used lurking as a reason to vote IH. LL did the same thing with his original request to attack IH. But I want to hear more from IH and BJ before I really start looking hard at where my vote will go. I don't like to throw around votes as readily as some of you players. I am also going to be looking really carefully at the players who quickly switched their vote to logicticus.

I want to clarify my point on lurking and lurker hunting. Everything that I have said on the topic was meant to implicitly be about the random voting phase. I find it generally a bad tactic to attack players for lurking in the random voting phase, as I can see many reasons why players wouldn't get really into posting during that portion of the game. As we get into the meat of the game I think I swing more into the position that Panzer and LL have taken. Sometimes scum like to try and fade into the background when the discussion gets heavy, especially if someone town is in trouble, and it is bad play for the town to allow this when posting in the game becomes really important. I want to clear this up because undoubtedly someone will vote a lurker later in the game and you won't see me get really upset about it.

Before we can really start to think about a good lynch for the day (which is closing rapidly) I really want to hear more from BJ, IH, Mariyta, Mert, and Metatron.

[BillyTwilight]

unvote, vote:Billy Twilight

Part of post 49 is crap.

Avoiding the random voting phase is ok, but not being aware of the game is not? It is not ok to avoid the random voting stage, as you're intentionally avoiding the game, if you're going to lurker hunt. I am mainly voting for you, because you said Scot's was completely ok, but threw suspicion on me, right after two players had expressed suspicion on me.

IH, you are going to have to clarify this. First, you are on the record saying that the topic became unwatched during the crash. This happened, the topic was destroyed during the crash. However, after the crash raj sent a PM to me saying that the game was started. Did you not receive such a PM? I am going on the assumption that all players received this PM, and if so, then your excuse for not posting is illegitimate. I NEVER said that not knowing the game was starting was a worse excuse than not liking the random voting phase. I simply don't believe that you didn't know the game was started, unless freak missed sending you the PM. I asked you in post #49 if you received this PM, and you have yet to answer.

Secondly, you forgot to mention that in post #49 I specifically said that lurker hunting in the random phase was BAD, and I FoSed the two players who were doing it. I think most people would read that post and be dissuaded from voting you for lurking; I certainly never intended it to push more suspicion on you for lurking. I just wanted clarification from you on when you found out that the game had started.

As for post #78, I think we are arguing semantics. I agree with you that the best way to handle a lurker is to let the mod handle them. I just wanted everyone to know that I don't get as upset about people placing a vote on a lurker later in game as I do during the random voting phase, as some players (like MeMe) prefer to handle that situation.

[BillyTwilight]

Sorry, I missed that you said you did not get a PM after the crash occurred. If that is the case then you have no problem from me. However, I can't see freak sending some PMs to people

after

the crash and not to others. I'd like to know if any other players in the game did not get a PM after the crash alerting us to the beginning of the game.

[BillyTwilight]

So you think placing a lurker vote is scummy? All I am saying is that if someone places a lurker vote down the line I won't automatically FoS or vote them for it. I am more cautious with someone who goes lurker hunting the first week and a half of the game. I understand your point, and I myself don't place lurker votes because I think letting the mod handle it is better, but I don't think putting a vote on someone for lurking in the middle game is a scum tell; that's all that I am trying to say on the matter.

For everyone else, I don't really know what to make of IH's claim of not getting a PM to start the game. However, if IH were scum then he was undoubtedly in touch with his partners in the night phase, or if he was a SK then he would have had to send in a kill; using the reason he has for not posting in the start of the game would then be incredibly stupid. I think that at this moment a vote for IH is a vote for his stupidity, and for the record I don't think IH is dumb. I am therefore inclined to believe him.

Now, back to the rest of the game. BJ, Mert, Mariyta and Metatron, we need more substantial input from you. The day is closing quickly, and I don't want to see a lynch without everyone in the game having some significant contribution. BJ, why is your vote currently on scotmany? Metatron, why are you still holding your random vote? The same goes for you Maryita. Mert, you were supposed to be back in town yesterday. We need input, guys.

[BillyTwilight]

Here are the major actions of the two players that are working their way to the top of my list:

Lawrencelot:

Post #38: had already voted IH in random phase, but asks that we pressure IH after mid-day prod with more votes

Post #48: Unvotes IH, Votes Scotmany

Post #67: Votes Logicticus

Post #70: FoSes BJ

Post #86: Unvotes Logicticus, asks for pressure on BJ, Mert, Mariyta



Panzer:

Post #42: Unvotes, IGMEOY - IH

Post #44: FoSes Scotmany

Post #50: FoSes BT

Post #63: unFoSes Scot, maintains FOS on IH, votes logicticus

Post #91: FoSes LL and maintains vote on logicticus

Post #95: Unvote, Votes LL


Fist of all, I want to ask Panzer what he has seen in LL's behavior that made him move his vote so quickly. It appears to me that the two of you have tended to follow each other in who you are currently interrogating, with you using FoSes and LL more often using votes. Is there something else in LL's behavior that you have picked up on, because to me it looks like both of you have followed a similar pattern of voting and casting suspicion on people.

I don't like either of these players right now. Both went lurker hunting after the mid-day prod (or hunting lurkers with "bad excuses for lurking," anyway), which at best is not helpful and can be scummy. Both have been quick to throw their hat into a forming bandwagon; each started in on IH, moved on to scotmany and then to logicticus. Now Panzer has seen the tide turning against LL and has thrown his vote into that quickly forming wagon as well.

LL, initially you wanted everyone to vote for IH. As soon as he posted and FoSed you, you backed off. Why? You pretty much have done that for everyone you've voted for: placed the vote, waited to see if any real pressure would build up against that player, then moved it as soon as it looked like things weren't going to get hard for that player.

Panzer, you are guilty of the same thing, but even more so with your most recent vote switch. Like Mert, I want to know what the "hat" was that dropped and made you switch your vote to LL.

Both of you are really getting by skin up. Panzer, you tried to change a point I made against you and twist it into an argument that I wasn't trying to make, LL you are flighty as a bird with your votes. Neither of you seem to be willing to really scum hunt, but just jump on the closest bandwagon and hop off again as soon as said bandwagon starts to evaporate.

[BillyTwilight]

Well, short one tonight, just to catch up.

Don't really like how pressure came off of logicticus so quickly. One thing Panzer had said earlier was that logicticus has earned his vote. I want to know more about why the vote switched to LL.

I don't like Panzer's reasoning for voting LL, seems like he's leaving himself open to jump right back on the logicticus bandwagon if the tide turns again. I still want to know from you what distinguishes your behavior from LL's so much, seeing as you both pretty much went after the same people until LL came under fire.

Don't really like Mariyta's vote at this point, mostly because I like to see more reasons from people for a vote, especially for a L-1 vote on a wagon that formed in about 24h RL.

vote mariyita

pretty sure she is scum at this point. I also like web crawlers, blogs, fish, pizza, and javascript. Ninjas rock.

Well I hate piano recitals, dried asparagus, green cherry nougat, prom night, very small rocks, and soul-suckin ancient Egyptian mummies. Ask-a-ninja Ninja rocks.

I really want more information from BJ on his vote choices; what about Mariyta's actions have triggered your radar? I take it from your personalized title that I am probably asking for answers I won't get. Oh well. Don't like the mention of a vig kill. We don't know if we have a vig, and a SK could use those kinds of posts to their advantage later in the game.

I think maybe it's time we start making lists (sorry for those of you who hate list makers and long posts... your probably going to hate me by the end of this game).

Mod, can we get an updated vote count please?

.

[BillyTwilight]

BillyTwilight's Fun With Lists!

BJ: He's - Surprise! - not very helpful so far in the game. Although I won't call the votes he has placed so far scummy, I would like to see more reasons for voting those players. His play style is going to make it very hard to get a read on him. I think it will take several game days and a longer voting record to get a real read on BJ.

IH: I am ok with his posts so far. I think he slightly misinterpreted some of my arguments in the lurker discussion, but I don't think it was intentional and I think it was more of an argument over game theory that has little to do with the specifics of this game.

Lawrecelot: Not sure of what I think of his defense. Didn't particularly like the bandwagon that formed against him so quickly, but I

really

don't like when players quasi-claim, saying they something to the effect of "If I claim it only helps the mafia" or the like. Other than that he has been vote hopping a lot, claiming that he is lurker hunting, which I find disturbing this early in the game. However, this could be his playstyle; I've seen others who pretty much forgo FoSes and other tactics in favor of just putting their vote on who they want to pressure.

logicticus: Very uneasy feel about him, mostly due to his vote of IH; when lurkers put votes on other players for lurking I get really nervous. The fact that he says he wanted to get discussion started bothers me; it's easy to vote someone with that reason, and I find it worse when players who do that don't bother to ask specific questions or otherwise contribute to the "discussion" that they wanted to foster - until forced to do so.

Mariyta: Don't like how fast she jumped on the LL bandwagon, or how fast she came of it again, especially since she left it open that she could vote him again without hesitation, leaving room open to get back on the wagon if someone else starts leaning his way.

Mert: Like Mert's posts so far. The only thing I tend to disagree with him about is LL's propensity to discuss lurking in his posts. Considering conversation from most active players at the time centered on the merits of lurker hunting and how best to get lurkers to post, I think you would find a large percentage of the players posts to contain something about lurking.

Metatron: Not sure about Metatron. Don't agree with IH that his early posts were rolefishing, seemed to me to be more of a discussion on what the events of N1 mean to this game, which is relevant. Like me, he seems to be a player who likes to hold his vote, but I haven't seen much from him in bold at all yet, which might be him trying to avoid stepping on toes and staying off center stage, so to speak. Metatron, you are still holding your Random Vote. Why?

Panzerjager: Right up there with LL in my book. Don't like his vote flopping at all, or speculation about logicticus distancing himself from IH, considering there was nothing linking the two in the first place. He twist the meaning of my original anti-lurking argument and asked a question that I find to be very scummy. He is bandwagonning a lot as well, though using FoSes and the like which keeps him from jumping his vote around as much as LL has. Also, he left himself room to jump right back onto logicticus if the momentum swings back that way.

scotmany12: Ok with his posts so far. Don't really agree with him that BJ looks scummy, mostly because I think BJ has a reputation for playing the way he has been playing this game, which means that currently we have little info to draw scummy conclusions from BJ yet.

Scummiest players currently: Lawrencelot and Panzerjager, followed closely by logicticus and then Mariyta.

Most town players: scot and Mert, followed by IH.

Wild cards: Everyone else.

I currently have FoSes on LL and Panzer. Would like to add

IGMEOY: logicticus, Mariyta

.

[BillyTwilight]

@logicticus: Please go on the record and just let us know why you voted IH then. I interpreted post #68 to mean that you were voting IH for lurking and for starting discussion about IH. As I have already stated, I don't like when people vote to generate discussion but then never ask the player they voted for any questions or attempt to generate any discussion outside of their vote. I certainly don't find that kind of vote legitimatized. If you can give a better or more coherent reason for voting IH then you will go a long way in easing my suspicion of you.

@Panzer: It's not so much having two sets of suspicion; it's the way you have handled them. I don't know, it might be a playstyle thing that I just disagree with, but I don't like statements like:

Logticus, you are far too scummy and I should have never left my vote of you.

If that is the case, then why did you take your vote off of him in the first place? I think that personally when I vote I want that person to be where my vote stays unless I see a significant reason to change it. I hate so called "pressure votes" because that implies you aren't willing to go through with a lynch of that player when you make the vote, and if so the vote begins to lose its strength. Note: I am not saying that your votes were pressure votes, but I think the logic still applies. You are teaching players that you vote for later to think, "I don't really need to worry too much about Panzer's vote; when the next scummy looking person comes along he will just move his vote to them."

Finally, I think that a lot of players playing as scum will play this way, especially when they place votes in such a way that it allows them to quickly change their vote back without garnering a lot of suspicion from the town. More or less, I think that your posting could be due to just play style, but I don't particularly like that playstyle as I think it's a style that will allow players to hide as scum, and also allows them to get lynches, because their vote can be on any bandwagon that comes along.

I don't think that anyone in the game so far has committed a lynchable offense yet, which is unfortunate since the deadline is crashing down on us. Speaking of,

Mod, can we get a votecount and an exact time for day 1's end?

Right now I think I'd prefer a no lynch, but lynches I would be ok with at this point, considering the deadline, are Lawrencelot and Panzerjager, with logicticus depending on how he answers my above question.

[BillyTwilight]

Panzer, would you care to comment on post #135, and why you didn't follow up on it? First of all, the logic in that post is ridiculous as is the logic you have for voting Mariyta. If there is "Nothing condemning or remotly scummy" about her play, then

why vote her?

The way I see your day 1: You pretty much maintained your suspicions in the same place as LL until LL came under fire. You jumped on and off and then back on the LL vote, which makes me think you really wanted to be voting him if he was lynched, but didn't really want him lynched. Your post #135 seems to me to be filled with bad vibes; I especially don't like that you made a statement that seems to accept your scummyness if LL turned up town, but implies that there is no way you could be scum if LL was as well, and then you immediately deflect onto scotmany. You maintained a vote and/or suspicion on logicticus throughout the last 1/4 of day 1, but you seem to have completely dropped that now. Several times you said something about log having "earned" your vote or being "far too scummy", etc. If that was the case, what has he done since to merit you pushing onto another player? I think you don't feel comfortable maintaining and attack on log; you think it might draw to much suspicion your way.

Your play has been erratic and jumpy, full of weird logic and vote hopping without following through on suspicions in a constructive way. I feel pretty comfortable with a

Vote: Panzerjager

now.

[BillyTwilight]

So first it was logicticus, then it was scotmany, then it was Mariyta, then it was scot again, and now it's Mert? All of them based on pretty crappy logic, 'cept maybe logicticus. How does your role work? You can sacrifice yourself for a targeted player at night, if you are targeting that player as well? So how can you use that for yourself? You sacrifice yourself to save... yourself? That doesn't even make sense.

Still very comfortable with voting Panzer. He used a self vote, putting himself at L-1 to buy enough time to come up with a claim he thought we'd believe. I'd be more inclined to believe the claim if it had come before any self-voting theatrics. Then in his claim he deflects again to another player with an appeal to emotion... "since i figured I'd eventually die I'd move the game forward and lend the information of Mert is dirty scum to the town". Don't like the claim, don't like how he deflected onto Mert with no logic, don't like that he did it in such a way as to make it seem he

knew

Mert was scum (even though he later fessed up to it not being part of his role).

[BillyTwilight]

IH, I am not exactly sure what you are getting at with your point #2. I don't believe the claim as a townie claim at all, especially because of the self vote and the timing of the claim. I don't particularly see it as a useful role, and although I haven't read the other freaktown games, it doesn't really seem to be in keeping with the game theme, IMO. As a scum role it makes even less sense and becomes almost useless. The only thing I can see it being useful for is protecting a mafia godfather from a vig kill or from a second scum group.

In short, I simply don't believe the claim. I think Panzer voted himself hoping to see something like what Mert did (unvoting) happen and to leave enough confusion to give himself time to find a roleclaim that he thought would work but would also be difficult for us to verify. The way that he talks about the mod requiring him to place a protection but allowing him to protect himself (which is, in effect, not placing a protection) doesn't add up for me either.

[BillyTwilight]

Also, I just noticed something. Panzer never unvoted Scot, so technically his self-vote didn't count. That makes me think even more that this was a stalling move. Mert, he basically tricked you into taking your vote off. I see that Raj counted it as a vote against himself, but I think Raj just missed the fact that there was no unvote from Panzer.

Mod: Can we get a new vote count and clarification on if Panzer's self vote still holds?

MODEDIT: the vote holds. i missed the fact that he didn't unvote. but the count has been made and there has been some discussion on the fact that he made the vote. so it will stand.

[BillyTwilight]

Panzer, I assume when you say "voting myself" you mean in reference to choosing yourself as your night action, and not the self-vote. Can you answer any of Mert's questions about your self-vote? Did you intentionally not unvote scot before voting yourself, or did you forget to unvote and honestly think your vote counted (regardless of the fact that raj counted it; basically, I want to hear more about your motivation for the self-vote).

[BillyTwilight]

I'm going to maintain my vote on Panzer and

FoS: Mariyta

for distracting away from the interrogation. Panzer, I am a little annoyed with the question about if I even read the thread, considering you have yet to answer the question I brought up. I want to know

why

you voted yourself, and if you thought that vote wouldn't count when you made it, or if you simply forgot to unvote.

Scot, Mariyta, and logicticus, why do you so readily believe his claim, especially considering the circumstance under which he made it? log, his answer to your question in post 188 is lame at best. Speaking of, Panzer, why are you sucking up to IH, and how do you find him as the only town looking player?

I still see Panzer as jumping from suspicion to suspicion, deflecting away from himself as much as possible; also I don't like his claim, which is unverifiable at best and the mechanics of how he claims it works don't really jive with how I think raj would have set up a role like that. Post #193 is just more distancing.

[BillyTwilight]

I can't wait for the prom this weekend. It's going to be sweet...

And scot, I don't have a problem with Mert; I think he's been pretty straight so far.

[BillyTwilight]

Damn. Have fun guys.