Open 19 - Nightless (Over?) before 430

[TonyMoonshine]

/confirm

Sorry.

unvote:tonymoonshine

[TonyMoonshine]

'kay, here is my reason:

Just to make sure, Nightless does not allow NKs right? its all death by lynch?

This shows concern with scum powers. Town powers don't change in this set-up.

Sounds good to me.

[TonyMoonshine]

unvote, vote:John

Good call on that one Vit. I thought his statement looked Iffy, but I wasn't exactly sure what it meant, but you're probably right.

Tony, why didn't you put your vote on him if you thought it sounded good?

I was late to the game and again I apologize. While catching up I made note of John's post, but this is only my second game and I learned not to be vote happy. Also, if we lynch him now what information do we have to go on for tomorrow?

[TonyMoonshine]

I was late to the game and again I apologize. While catching up I made note of John's post, but this is only my second game and I learned not to be vote happy. Also, if we lynch him now what information do we have to go on for tomorrow?

There are more players than in a newbie game. With Twelve alive it's 7 to lynch.

Also this a mountainous nightless game.

Scum need 4 mislynches to win, right? So we have a guaranteed 4 days. Yet, with every person we lynch, the town gains "an extra life" since scum kills can't exactly balance it out.

Look at it this way.

with 12 alive, 4 are scum.

We lynch correctly, we're at 8 townies 3 scum left.

That's a guaranteed 5 days. We have some room to mislynch. We shouldn't get careless, but we shouldn't mind putting some pressure on people, because if scum speedlynch, then we have enough room to lynch them right back.

Everything makes sense. When I said, "sounds good" that was my way of putting pressure on John, I forgot about using:

fos: John

[TonyMoonshine]

Ok, when someone is impatient what does that usually mean? With a quick scan of the game this is all I have for now.

[TonyMoonshine]

random vote: Tony Moonshine

Because I'm impatient.

Do you mean this post?

No, I understand that's a random vote and it's how games are started. I've read things about quick lynch and who it benefits, so for those who want a quick lynch or just seem impatient what information does that provide?

[TonyMoonshine]

ok, so players register to play or replace, then become bored with the game and just drop out? does anyone else think this is not good?

[TonyMoonshine]

I know we lost some days because of the forum crash, but I had a early vote for John that I can't find now. Did we lose some random posts also?

[TonyMoonshine]

because they don't care about the game. So you can say that NAR is at least caring about the game, regardless of which alignment he is.

So, why is he allowed to play in any game? This is my second game and I don't know anything about other players previous games and how they act.

[TonyMoonshine]

I don't think I'm "laying low" I try to jump in the discussion with questions, but get little or no reply. My questions have been more general so maybe that has something to do with it.

[TonyMoonshine]

Please point out the "friendship" between me and john, i'm very interested to learn about this.

I did a quick review and found posts 133, 145 and 148 interesting. There might be more, I went backwards and did't get all the way to page 1. Anyway, the posts show Occult defending John and his pregame question. This might be why they think a relationship was in place. This was a quick review and post 173 also got my attention with VitaminR defending another player.

FoS VitaminR

he flat out said someone couldn't be Mafia. This is a weak case and it was quick review. I'll see where it goes from here.

[TonyMoonshine]

Also, I don't really get TonyMoonshine's argument against VitaminR. Care to explain, Tony?

Just something I noticed and wanted to bring up, see what kind of reaction we would get.

[TonyMoonshine]

Also, I don't really get TonyMoonshine's argument against VitaminR. Care to explain, Tony?

Just something I noticed and wanted to bring up, see what kind of reaction we would get.

So basically, you just attacked VitaminR for no reason?! Seems a bit fishy, especially since there is plenty going on right now, mainly an Occult bandwagon. Maybe trying to take attention away from Occult?

FoS: TonyMoonshine

So, what you're saying is we should devote 100% of our attention to one person and it's wrong to question others?

Did you even read my post? I didn't attack Vitamin, just brought something up. I also gave a reason for my actions.

[TonyMoonshine]

Also, I don't really get TonyMoonshine's argument against VitaminR. Care to explain, Tony?

Just something I noticed and wanted to bring up, see what kind of reaction we would get.

So basically, you just attacked VitaminR for no reason?! Seems a bit fishy, especially since there is plenty going on right now, mainly an Occult bandwagon. Maybe trying to take attention away from Occult?

vote: Aimee

I gave reason for my suspicion of Vit and she either, didn't see it or ignored it. She also doesn't want the focus taken off Occult. It's been over 48 hours since we last heard from her. She needs to answer this question: Why is it wrong to question others ?

[TonyMoonshine]

you made a weak case against VitaminR,

I pointed out that it was a weak case.

There was NO need to provoke reactions at that time

ok, in the future will you let me know when there is a need. This is my 2nd game and in both games players make it seem like there is a formula to playing this game and if you don't follow it, you are suspicious. I understand how the game works, but I'm a bit of a maverick and would rather lead than follow.

If your post was a definite suspicion against VitaminR,

I'm suspicious of everyone right now.

strong bandwagon against Occult at that time, seemed like a subtle way to draw attention OFF the Occult bandwagon,

I think Occult is town because of the strong bandwagon against him.

Some may think I am defending Occult here. No. I do find Occult suspicious.

ok, has anyone accused you of defending him? you seem to keep your posts very neutral so no one will have anything to go on for tomorrow. it's almost like you are planning your moves ahead of time.

Finally, TonyMoonshine, why the need to vote for me? I think the fact I didn't answer your question for a mere 48 hours is hardly deserving of a vote.

i gave reasons for my vote. if you choose to ignore or not fully read my posts, i can't help you.

[TonyMoonshine]

If Occult is scum, Tony is almost certainly his partner me thinks. This is in no way any evidence pointing to Occult's townieness. If there have been more than 4 people on him, which I doubt will all be scum, then he's clearly been scummy, and probably scum.

FoS:Tony

Ok, another person who either ignores or doesn't read my posts.

I said,

"I think Occult is town"

I never said it was fact or overwhelming evidence, it's just my opinion.

And yes, the fact so many players are on his bandwagon is a small bit of evidence that he may be town.

And usually a townie is lynched the 1st day. At least that's what the IE players said in my 1st game.

Please do not exaggerate what I say.

[TonyMoonshine]

It takes a majority of players to lynch. do you think that every player lynched is likely to be town simply because the majority of people voted for him? I'm confused about why you feel he's town.

No, I understand the game is not that simple and not everyone on the bandwagon is scum.

Do you deny that usually on day 1 a townie is lynched?

Also, we were asked to get our stance on record and I did that. I'm not asking anyone to change their vote. I understand we need a lynch (townie or scum) to get information for day 2. Now we have more information to go on for day 2 if Occult is lynched.

[TonyMoonshine]

Nah, I dont deny it. But I dont think we can exclude the possibility that those on the bandwagon have actually found scum simply because its day one.

I'm not excluding anything.

[TonyMoonshine]

Quick review of Tony:
You FoSsed John because of VitR's reasoning that he was scum asking about his own powers.
You FoSed VitR next, for saying mustafa should be town, based on a weak case (him defending me).
You voted Aimee because she ignored your FoS on vitr, pushing for an occult lynch.
(Interjection, I'm also scrutinizing Aimee because of he convenient lapse of non-biasness in her player post)

Hmm.Intersting.

Unvote

I'm not sure I follow what you are trying to say. Vitr didn't say

mustafa should be town

he said he definitely is town. And Aimee didn't ignore my FoS on Vitr, she either didn't see or choose to ignore my reasons.

[TonyMoonshine]

The post is lost, I can't find it.

[TonyMoonshine]

Prodding Aimee and TonyMoonshine.

Carry on.

hi.

[TonyMoonshine]

And yes, the fact so many players are on his bandwagon is a small bit of evidence that he may be town.

Sorry, but

what?

How does a bandwagon against Occult provide any evidence that he is town? I can understand your point, seeing as you followed this up by saying that a townie usually gets lynched (see, I do read your posts! ), but at the same time, the very fact there is a bandwagon against him suggests that he has done something scummy, not acted in a "townie" manner.

For this bit of crap logic:

FoS: Tony Moonshine

I said

a small bit of evidence.

So, if we just quick lynched him and didn't question anyone else, what would we have to go on for tomorrow?

[TonyMoonshine]

I'm not denying Occult has said things that others have found to be scummy. I believe it was Occult who asked for everyone to take a side and I made a choice so, i'm not trying to scare people from the bandwagon.

And I meant to say:

So, if we

had

just quick lynched

Had

in a past tense. Obviously on page 13 we are beyond a quick lynch.

Some players like to spin what's said to make a point and the truth is exaggerated, lost or misleading.

With Rom anus it was my fault I wasn't clear about a quick lynch and he saw it as an easy opportunity to attack me.

[TonyMoonshine]

I'm sorry to ask also but.... what is Tony's reasons for Occult being town again?

The bandwagon
Usually a townie is lynched day 1

That's all I have.

[TonyMoonshine]

I'm just saying this a crap reason to try and clear occult.

Please review posts 207, 223, 234 and 248. I'm not trying to clear Occult, but he asked for everyone to make a stance on his lynch.

[TonyMoonshine]

Friday was busy and I didn't have a lot of time to post. Just wanted to drop a line that I'm around. Will post more this weekend.

[TonyMoonshine]

I will not denounce anyone for stating their opinions on people's play compared to other games, but it will be of no consequence to me and will be ignored.

I disagree. John is a new player and new players will make mistakes. His role this game might be opposite of last game and he's trying a different style of play. To suggest players not consider this is a joke. Would I vote for him just because of this? No, but with the pregame question it's not looking good for him.

I would not consider this as evidence if John were a more established player.

[TonyMoonshine]

I'm not saying I won't vote for him, but I wouldn't just vote anyone because of something that happened in another game. There is a case being built against him including his pregame question and what VitR said.

[TonyMoonshine]

It sounds like he is dangerous town or scum.

unvote

vote John

This and his pregame question are my reasons.

[TonyMoonshine]

Mmk, this guy is opportunistic scum.

Occult today, Tony tomorrow.

No, the truth is I didn't pay attention to this game earlier and instead of admitting this, I tried to jump in mid-game without even a review of the game. This is why I did not want to vote Occult, because I had no idea why he was being voted and didn't think it was fair. A vote for me now or day 2 is probably the best thing for the town. However, from now on and until I'm lynched, I am 100% devoted to the game.

You're right, I am opportunistic jumping on John, but it's what I wanted to do from the beginning right after his pregame question.

[TonyMoonshine]

Vote: Occult

Compelling reasons posted by others, but his defeatist attitude toward being killed pushed me over the edge for the vote. This early in the game, that's pretty scummy behavior.

With how many players we've lost and the lack of participation by everyone, I don't think it's scummy for him to have a defeatist attitude. He might just want out of the game and this is the easist way without quiting.

[TonyMoonshine]

Mmk, this guy is opportunistic scum.

Occult today, Tony tomorrow.

So, what else is on your agenda? Why not set up day 3 now? It seems you already know Occult's role before the lynch.

[TonyMoonshine]

It's been a week since John posted. Can we get a

prod

?

[TonyMoonshine]

bleh.

Vote:tony

Moving fwd with your agenda. This is starting to look like scripted play. The last several pages you have contributed very little. Regardless of the lynch result, I'm sure you were coming after me, because you see me as an easy target. Whatever I try to do, you spin it, so I look guilty.

[TonyMoonshine]

Skruffs was obviously Joking.

Tony I already described that you were a good lynch for today. There is no sense in stressing the we lynched a townie.

Would it have made you feel better "OH OH AH AH AH, WE'RE WRONG, WE HAVE THREE MISLYNCHES LEFT, AAAHHH", no I go onto voting who I'm suspicious of next, which is you.

You could do more to find scum or information, but won't. This is the same thing you did day 1 with Occult.

vote IH

[TonyMoonshine]

And Tony, you are doing even less investigating with your OMGUS.

Please do better than that.

When will people realize that retaliating with a vote only makes you look more scummy.

Ok, but I did post reasons. My case is weak at best, but it's a start.

Reasons I voted IH:

1. His scripted play.
2. He's not seeking out scum.
3. His unwillingness to consider evidence against anyone besides Occult.

#1 This is obvious and on record.

#2 This might be due to lack of interest in a dying game. I think everyone is going throug this. This is also why I say my case is weak.

#3 This was pretty stubborn on his part and I was attacked for bringing up other names.

[TonyMoonshine]

1.Describe "Scripted play" and compare it to my other games..

I don't know anything about your other games.

Scripted play: Today Occult, tomorrow Tony. Seems like you're playing from a script.

Anyway, being it's Memorial Day weekend I'm sure things will get even slower. Hopefully, come Tuesday things start to pick up.

[TonyMoonshine]

I will catch up Mon night.

[TonyMoonshine]

Now, I will do exactly for tony, what I did for Occult. I will do a pbp of WHY I find him scummy.

Occult was an easy target. He was almost asking to be lynched. Now you see me as an easy target and are moving foward with your agenda.

[TonyMoonshine]

Occult was an easy target. He was almost asking to be lynched. Now you see me as an easy target and are moving foward with your agenda.

So.... you're saying he was a scummy player.

I did not say that and there is no reason for you to think that. Read posts 350 and 366. Occult knew he made mistakes and didn't fight the lynch very hard. Instead he tried to point the town in the right path to finding scum. He accepted the lynch and barely fought it. Easy target.

I am still curious as to WHY you defended him the whole day, when virtually nothing pointed to him being town.

I did not defend him. Read post 207. He asked for everyone to make a stance on his lynch and I did. It was well after post 207 until I made a stance. How is that the whole day? I didn't try and get people to change their vote and and the only reason I continued to discuss it was in defense.


Everyone should review what Occult said and we should work with that information to target scum.

- Who was Occult suspicous of?
- Who had valid reasons for voting Occult?
- Which players jumped on the wagon and didn't contribute much?

[TonyMoonshine]

Mod: Would you please extend deadline even longer?

.

Activity has picked up and June 1st doesn't leave much time for the new players to catch up.

[TonyMoonshine]

Getting an Easy NK,

???

[TonyMoonshine]

I will be AFK Fri - Sun. With the short deadline I am not convinced about anyone.

unvote

For the record if I had to vote it would be for IH, but the deadline is too short. I will be able to post all day and night Thur before I leave.

[TonyMoonshine]

I will aslo be gone until Mon.

[TonyMoonshine]

I'm back and have a lot of catching up to do.

[TonyMoonshine]

Also, she kept asking for the deadline to be revoked. That felt like a scumbuddy trying to buy time.

I think several players including myself asked for the deadline to be extended. Is this a good reason to suspicious of her?

[TonyMoonshine]

I will be on holiday from Monday through to Sunday. No access at all. Mod, you know I will be back. Replacement not needed. Sorry for the inconvenience.

I really dislike this post. At this point there is momentum building against her and she doens't take time before she leaves to address the issues.

[TonyMoonshine]

Three things:

2) Switched to Occult at a moment when Tony's vote had made John the leading lynch candidate

When I was suspicious of VitR day 1 he didn't respond to my post, but Aimee and IH did and put a lot of pressure on me for my stance. There may have been others, I need to do a reread of the conversation. I bring this up because I wasn't sure what to make of this and I couldn't get it off my mind.

Her day one vote switch looks bad and the fact she voted for Occult (town) and said she would hammer John (scum) but didn't.

fos: Aimee

[TonyMoonshine]

I'm not voting yet because others are not saying a lot and I don't want them to get an free pass while Aimee is AFK.

[TonyMoonshine]

My scumlist:

Aimee
IH

Has IH or Aimee ever pressured each other?

[TonyMoonshine]

Romanus, Elias - Both seem to be suspicious of at least several players and seem to be seeking scum. I get a protown vibe from both of them.

Guardian - Says the case against IH is coming, but we have nothing. Not sure what to make of this. For those who have more games under their belt what could this mean? With Aimee gone, it's a great time to pressure other players. I'm sure the focus will return to Aimee when she returns.

Haut Boy - Hasn't said much or anything at all. It's not going to be easy for me to reread what he has said considering his role has been replaced several times.

mustafa15 - has finals until today I believe. He has some catching up to do.

I have to leave for work now. Tonight I will add more and discuss Scruffs, Vitr, IH and Aimee.

[TonyMoonshine]

I will make the case against

IH

in a

few days,

and I don't have the effort/time to put into the IH case at the moment.

One thing I can do right now is an impromptu top to bottom scumlist, top being scum.

John
<gap>
IH
<big gap>
Skruffs
<gap>
Vitr
mustafa
HautBoy
Tony

Aimee

<gap>
Romanus
Elias
<huge gap>
Occult


Maybe this will help people understand my defense of Aimee... I just think that she is one of the

worst

possible lynches with IH being the (obvious?) best.

Shoot, I might just start defending Aimee if I have time to get the IH case out and do that at the same time...

Post 595 by Guardian is very scummy. I've quoted his remarks to show everyone what I see as his attempt to move the suspicion from Aimee to Occult.

MFOS: Guardian

My scum list:

Guardian - Post 595 is the main reason. I need to review all his posts now.

Aimee - Voting record and what I have said in my previous posts.

I think either would make a good lynch today, but I'm not voting until Aimee returns.

[TonyMoonshine]

Oh and my Guardian quote is from post 558 if anyone cares.

[TonyMoonshine]

I forgot to add this part:

Guardian didn't have time to post his case against IH, but had time to come up with post 595.

[TonyMoonshine]

Geez, I'm tired...

EBWOP

Aimee - Voting record and what I have said in my previous posts and the fact Guardian is defending her.

[TonyMoonshine]

Also, Tony has expressed suspicion against me for my "voting record". By that, do you mean simply that I voted against Occult and didn't vote against John?

Well, there was the day 2 stuff. How you were going to hammer but didn't. It's not just your voting record. There is a case against you, but it was somewhat put on hold while you were on vacation.

[TonyMoonshine]

It seems to me that this case is being exaggerated a good deal. Im not really getting why Aimee is a good lynch, and the whole thing seems to be a distraction in my opinion.

I think Guardian is the distraction, however I believe he is the best choice for today. There was a case building against Aimee and that is taking a back seat to Guardian. Aimee claims the case against her is exaggerated and now you echo her words. I don't like this at all. Why do Guardian and Elias defend Aimee?

I still need to do a review of Guardian's post, but now I am going to do the same for Elias.

[TonyMoonshine]

Also, IH was the most vocal against a John modkill, pointing perhaps to a linkage in their mafia alignment.

And Mustafa, I gave the chance for anyone to object to me placing the hammer. Guardian was the person who objected. If anyone else had objected, I would have done the same thing.

My main problem wasn't that you were listening to what Guardian said, it was that you were listening to what anyone said. If one person out of 11 objects to something, and you know that 4 people are scum, then you shouldn't just listen to that one person, you should do what you think is the right thing to do, because they might be scum trying to mislead you.

Mustafa, what are you thoughts on everyone? I see you are not suspicious of Aimee and seem to agree with Guardian or at least think what he is saying is worth considering. How about everyone else?

[TonyMoonshine]

Mustafa, what are you thoughts on everyone? I see you are not suspicious of Aimee and seem to agree with Guardian or at least think what he is saying is worth considering. How about everyone else?

I am suspicious of Aimee, which is why my vote is on her, and I think that some of what he is saying is worth considering, but definetly not all of it. Right now, I'm pretty suspicious of everyone, I could easily see any one of you being scum, but I like Aimee the least, which is why my vote is on her.

Mod: Hautboy said in his sig that he won't be active until August, can we have a replacement?

Sorry, I confused you with Elias. Thanks anyway for the input.

[TonyMoonshine]

Um, hey retard: Check about three pages back where I outlined my opinion on 3 fucking players. Dont even pretend that I'm not taking a stand. If it didnt get through your thick skull, that question was meant to refute your opinion, AKA

take a stand.

I'm defending her because the case is weak. I'd much rather be considered linked to Aimee then see her lynched for weak reasons. There are much better lynch candidates out there.

It seems to me that this case is being exaggerated a good deal. Im not really getting why Aimee is a good lynch, and the whole thing seems to be a distraction in my opinion.
^ taking a stand on the Aimee case.

If that post was too pissed off for you guys, then blame my RL, im not in a good mood. But seriously, that last post was retarded.

I really dislike how at least 2 people find it neccassary to defend Aimee when she is capable of doing this herself. By doing this she's able to avoid pressure from players without having to post.

That said...

vote: Aimee

The most notable players defending Aimee: Guardian and Elias.

[TonyMoonshine]

First of all, that some wierd snipping. Next time you should point it out, because defending Aimee was not at all the point of that post.

Also, Aimee has defended herself, and it was sufficient in my mind. The thing I find notable is how you havent even adressed the defense she herself made, and went striaght to attacking the other people defending her. Then in the same post, you vote her?

And to address the actual defense: Do you really call what I did a defense? I stated my opinion on the case. I disagree with it. If I was silent on the issue, I wouldve been attacked for "not taking a stand" as Romanus says. Since I disagree with it, the only option I had was to state that, and explain why.

Also, since you quoted that messed up version of my post, you obviously read my exchange with Romanus. Kind of wierd that you didnt comment on it and went straight to attacking Aimee. Er, attacking Aimees defenders and then voting Aimee, actually.

I'm sorry. I was tired and forgot to finish the post. I meant to add your meltdown was an even bigger distraction for the town than the case against Aimee. That's why it was quoted like it was.

[TonyMoonshine]

Elias makes a good point about Tony.

Just making a note.

One day you put Elias on your scum list and the next you say he makes a good point.

Nice deflection.

You seemed protown with some of the things you said and you seem to be actively seeking scum, but now you are just contradicting yourself.

[TonyMoonshine]

Finally, I want to know what others think of me. I notice that Skruffs and Elias have remained relatively silent on the matter, and I am curious to know what they think. As well as STD.

Regarding Aimee's defense. She said she would hammer John but didn't. Everyone knew the deadline was not going to be revoked or extended and I don't understand why an objection from Guardian kept her from voting. She had enough time to get her vote in if that's what she wanted to do.

Also, how does getting Skruffs or Eias's opinion on her help her catch scum? I understand wanting to bring them in the game if you think they are coasting, but why not pressure them instead? Is she asking them for their opinion so she can pokes holes in it? If so, why waste the time? Doesn't sit right with me.

[TonyMoonshine]

My central air is fixed, so I'm happy.

[TonyMoonshine]

Um, tony, theres plenty of conversation. Mind actually commenting on the game?

No

[TonyMoonshine]

Tony, you havent contributed anything to the game. If it werent for the fact that I'm sure Romanus is scum, I'd vote for you.

Well, I'm not sure if you are in the Mafia, but you are definitely scum.

[TonyMoonshine]

Um, tony, theres plenty of conversation. Mind actually commenting on the game?

I'm not sure what it is you want me to comment on. My vote for Aimee stands. No one has said anything to make me want to change my vote.

I think both you and Romanus are jerks. Does being a jerk equal sum? Maybe someone with more experience will comment. This is only my third game.

[TonyMoonshine]

Um, tony, theres plenty of conversation. Mind actually commenting on the game?

I'm not sure what it is you want me to comment on. My vote for Aimee stands. No one has said anything to make me want to change my vote.

I think both you and Romanus are jerks. Does being a jerk equal sum? Maybe someone with more experience will comment. This is only my third game.

We know what you think of me. What about other players.

At this rate, you are getting as bad as Mustafa (who is, by the way, getting my vote).

Ok, I will try and post something more in depth over the couple of days as long as you agree to do the same. Deal?

The longer the day goes the more I see it benefiting scum. Early in the day there was momentum building against Aimee, which is almost gone now. For a few days there was momentum for Guardian and that has slowed. Same for Romanus, but Guardian and Romanus are still exchanging blows. A lot of people have contributed very little lately. I'm not saying we needed quick lynches on these players, but this day is beginning to drag on.

[TonyMoonshine]

Re-read. In progress.

Same. I'll get something posted late tonight.

[TonyMoonshine]

Sorry for my lack of posting. I have some notes and will be posting something tonight.

[TonyMoonshine]

Also, what about Guardian's case against IH. Do you agree?

I've know taken a closer look at it and I do not agree.

[TonyMoonshine]

IH is scummy case

unvote, vote:John

Good call on that one Vit. I thought his statement looked Iffy, but I wasn't exactly sure what it meant, but you're probably right.

Tony, why didn't you put your vote on him if you thought it sounded good?

1. Distances here, then sets up Occult wagon later when pressure builds on John. Possibly the scummiest post of the game, imo.

This is the 1st or 2nd page of the game. Distancing this early? Unlikely.

2, 3, I think he had bad reasons for lynching Occult, Occult's mischaracterizing the wagon as a lynching wagon seemed innocuous to me, he votes Occult for closeness with John (why vote Occult for closeness with John, unless you

know

John is scum or suspect John

more

than Occult?), and for ignoring Skruff's earlier posts.

Bad reasons? I think Occult admitted he made mistakes. There were reasons to lynch Occult.

3, Later tries to get Tony lynched for defending Occult... a townie... Then says "Anyone who is voting for Tony for defending Occult is a moron btw." even though he is in part voting for Occult for Occult's closeness with John...

My reasons for not voting Occult were pretty lame to say the least. That's why he went after me. This is not a reason to find him scummy.

2, 3, Then says Tony is the play, for voting John, who IH finds Occult suspicious for closeness with, and wants Tony lynched on day two even when Occult shows up as town.

Ummm... I don't think IH was going after me for voting John.

3, OMGUS's Tony when Tony points out that Occult is being singleminded about lynchign Tony.

I have no idea what this means.

3, Throws suspicion at me for having experienced players on my scumlist... because I find the experienced players to be scummy...

Well, I think everyone is scummy, not just the experienced players. I don't blame him for going after you.

[TonyMoonshine]

ebwop

Also, what about Guardian's case against IH. Do you agree?

I've now taken a closer look at it and I do not agree.

[TonyMoonshine]

I now find Guardian to be more scummy than Aimee.

unvote: Aimee

Post 595 is a joke and obvious attempt to split everyone. Now he wants to lynch 2 of the 4 he wanted to team with earlier. Not very consistent. His earlier defense of Aimee along with post 595 seems like scum trying to be overly protown.

Now that I have spent some time reviewing Aimee's and Guardian's posts I'm willing to admit I might be wrong.

- Her voting record. Voted Occult and he was town, but from his own words he made mistakes. Since it was day 1, I'm willing to write this one off. Said she would hammer John day 2 and didn't. I still find this scummy.

- I really didn't like her lack of posting earlier in the game, but now she seems to have stepped it up.

- Elias and Guardian defending her. I already said Guardia seems to be working too hard to appear town by defending Aimee. Espiacally when he dropped the line: You are back now, defend yourself. I'm not sure about Elias and his motives for defending Aimee. Maybe he just wants to be on record with his stance?

I think Guardian makes a better lynch for today.

[TonyMoonshine]

Also, when asked to comment about the game he initially refuses (scummy),

There is a story behind this. To keep it short, Elias had a meltdown on the previous page and then dropped the RL problems excuse which I'm sick of hearing. Everyone has problems, it's not a free pass to do or say what you want. Also, I found him scummy at the time (for defending Aimee) and didn't feel the need to respond to his request.

and says long days are good for scum. WRONG. Long days are good for the town,

Right, but this has been a very very long day. I understand more discussion is good, but at least for me it's more time to start second guessing yourself (like I'm doing now) I guess we'll see since we have a deadline.

[TonyMoonshine]

oops, forgot...

vote: guardian

He won't be AFK until July 1st so he has time to respond.

[TonyMoonshine]

I didn't know it was July 1st when I made the posts. Oh well, it sounds like Guardian will have time to post anyyway.

[TonyMoonshine]

Tony - wtf "he will still be able to respond" You ptosed on July 1. I am at the beach enjoying my vacation, and had left before you posted that. I'm at a cybercafe with limited time so no detailed analysis of anything, but yeah I really don't like "oh, but he can defend himself, it's OK."

Well, I'm sorry my schedule doesn't fit yours. The fact you are at the beach with limited access doesn't make you any less scum.

[TonyMoonshine]

I guess I can see what you guys are saying about Guardian, but I really kind of think that he had a genuine idea with the alliance, and just didn't realize the flaws. It gives him a bit of a scummy tint in my eyes, but I still think that there is a strong possibility that he just had a bad idea.

So, who do you actually think is scum and not scum? And your reasons?

I think Mustafa should respond.

[TonyMoonshine]

I guess I can see what you guys are saying about Guardian, but I really kind of think that he had a genuine idea with the alliance, and just didn't realize the flaws. It gives him a bit of a scummy tint in my eyes, but I still think that there is a strong possibility that he just had a bad idea.

So, who do you actually think is scum and not scum? And your reasons?

I think Mustafa should respond.

Still waiting.

[TonyMoonshine]

:goodvoting:

vote: Guardian

Because it's obvious.

How are those replacements coming ?

[TonyMoonshine]

On second hand, though, tony was also on all three townie wagons and not on johns.

I don't follow.

3 are dead, 2 town and 1 scum, right?

Who is the 3rd town?

Did I miss something?

[TonyMoonshine]

Replace me, I'm going to be away for three weeks with no access

Have fun in jail.

[TonyMoonshine]

The blahgo wagon (though he's not confirmed one way or another, so it's not fair of me to say that, but i think scum definitely pushed on blahgo to deflect from john, jsut like they pushed onto occult to deflect from john later on) si the 'third town'.

I'm still not sure where you are going with this. This is my voting record:

Day 1 = John
Day 2 = No vote (I think)
Day 3 = Pushed for Aimee, switched to Guardian.
Day 4 = Vote on Guardian.

Does this clear things up?

[TonyMoonshine]

This is just great. I feel that my wagon is scum driven, and as time goes by and we don't get replacements, I am getting increasingly worried that I too am going to be lynched by a wagon of three.

Tony is the player on my wagon I am least suspicious of, and I would love to hear from Tony re: what he thinks about Skruffs and Romanus

Yet, three players are voting me, not addressing my points at all

I agree with you on some things. The constant need for replacements has been really lame. If you are town and lynched, it's not fair.

I was waiting to hear from Mustafa before making my next move, but he left town like a little bitch! This is very unfair for everyone.

I think you have gone overboard with your moves and seem like scum trying to lead the town. The way you organize people into groups and try to get them to work together is just goofy to me. I'm not sure about anyone and I don't know why you are so confident with your decisions.

Romanus seems to be the next best help for the town, but I think is less obvious about than you. He also could be very skilled scum making crafty moves.

[TonyMoonshine]

Yup.. A lot of people are getting suspicious of mustafa. He is not anywhere near the top of my scumlist right now, but I am going to re-read with him in mind, any lynch is better than me .

I'm only suspicious of Mustafa because Aimee was.

Hm? Where? I am always agressive and point out my thoughts, why is this scummy? Is this why you are voting for me? Why is it obvious that I am scum -- because I'm not .

The obvious line was a way to get the ball rolling and a joke.

I already agreed that the group idea was a bad idea. If this is why you are finding me suspicious... that's lame, to be honest.

Just because it was a bad idea doesn't mean you are off the hook. Also, I've noticed you take a lot of time to defend yourself and not a lot of time to find scum. Why do you worry so much about defending yourself?

You seem more worried about saving your own neck and not really helping the town.

What decisions do you mean? I am not sure about anyone -- I feel quite good about IH being scum, and quite good about Elias being town -- but that's it. Why is feeling good about one's reasoning scummy?

Again, this goes back to putting players into groups. We know, you think it was a bad idea. We get it, but you still tried to do it.

Next best help? What do you mean here? Do you think Romanus and I are both townlike? I am confused.

You and Rom attempt to lead the town more than anyone esle.

[TonyMoonshine]

Mod, is it possible to extend the deadline until replacements are found?

[TonyMoonshine]

I have some catching up to do. I will try and post something Wed night.

[TonyMoonshine]

Sorry I haven't posted. I will try and catch up this weekend.

[TonyMoonshine]

I still feel good about my vote on Guardian. I'm suspicious of Mustafa only because Aimee was. But, I dislike voting someone who's not here to defend themselves and it leaves us with less for tomorrow.

I'm sorry this is short. Like everyone else I have been busy lately. I'm glad the game didn't stall and I will continue to do my part.

[TonyMoonshine]

I still feel good about my vote on Guardian.

Why?

When he was facing a deadline and lynch he seemed more worried about saving his own neck and not finding scum. Also, I think he is overly protown. He's tried to divide the town, that's scummy.

Do you disagree ?

[TonyMoonshine]

and I'm not all that enthusiastic about another replacement anyway.

I think most players are behind. How can we expect another replacement to catch up? So, I agree and don't have a better idea. Thok is an exception. I don't now how he did it.

[TonyMoonshine]

Did you claim Guardian is "overly protown" in 910?

Not sure. I'll have to check. I'm at work with limited time.

Freudian slip or something that needs further explantion?

I don't know what this means.

Also, how do you feel Guardian is trying to "divide" the town?

I will provide evidence later tonight. He won't like it.

[TonyMoonshine]

Wow. Guardian's post is a page long. I haven't read it, but I did a quick scan and noticed I moved up on his scum list. Guardian, did I move up because Thok is waiting to pounce on my report about you?

Thok, I've posted serveral times now why I'm suspicous of Guardian. You can do a reread and see for yourself.

Vote: Guardian

[TonyMoonshine]

Hm. Tony, respond to 914, would you? Also, you are already voting me, I believe. Also, nice OMGUS. And finally, also, read my post and see why you moved up the list instead of just OMGUSing for me moving up the list.

The OMGUS is for you page long post. The real reason I moved up is because you know Thok is waiting to pounce on me. And, when he does, you will join.

[TonyMoonshine]

Wow. Guardian's post is a page long. I haven't read it, but I did a quick scan and noticed I moved up on his scum list. Guardian, did I move up because Thok is waiting to pounce on my report about you?

Thok, I've posted serveral times now why I'm suspicous of Guardian. You can do a reread and see for yourself.

You've completely missed the point of why I wanted to see your response to 914. Go reread 910 and 914 again. If you don't respnd to my comments, I will vote you.

Repost your question. Or, go back and reread my posts. I have already said several times why I am suspicious of Guardian. IF you need me to, I will cut and paste my response.

[TonyMoonshine]

I specifically want you to explain why you called Guardian "overly town" in post 910.

Ok, I will post something late Wed night. And, it's not the first time I've said this.

[TonyMoonshine]

I specifically want you to explain why you called Guardian "overly town" in post 910.

Ok, I will post something late Wed night. And, it's not the first time I've said this.

EBWOB

Maybe I should be more clear. Post 910 is not the first time I've said he is acting overly town.

[TonyMoonshine]

Thok, have you read post 595 by Guardian?

[TonyMoonshine]

I will try and get something posted Fri or Sat.

[TonyMoonshine]

Reporting in. Will post something someday.

[TonyMoonshine]

I need to post. Hopefully by late Wed night.

[TonyMoonshine]

Thok - I like his aggressiveness. He's putting pressure on players and seems to be seeking scum.

Guardian - I still think he's the scummiest so far. He seems rather confortable with his role and his moves appear very calculated. I know most people don't see his alliance idea as scummy, but I do. He also seems rather stubborn with his IH vote. No one else is voting IH yet he keeps pushing his case. Again, I think his moves are calculated and he has an overall game plan.

Romanus/Oman - Rom was a borderline jerk with his play. I tried not to let that cloud my judgement on him, but he was weird. However, he did seem to be seeking scum and pressure players.

vitr - He has it in for me, but I'm one of several players he's supicious of which seems healthy. Since he's openly willing to switch his vote I would say he's town.

This is all I have time for now. I no longer have internet access at work, but I will do my best to stay active.

[TonyMoonshine]

I would like to know why calculation and planning is scummy? I would have thought scum would be more likely to throw votes around and not worry about repurcusions than town, who have the scum to worry about.

I completly disagree with the above quoted. More experienced players than I should chime in on the subject.

I think Guardian has a divide and conquer strategy in play.

[TonyMoonshine]

Well, at least SOMEONE got it.

Ok. This is my 3rd game. I'm still a newb.

[TonyMoonshine]

I want a Guardian case laid out by Tony.

I want Tony to also give us a list of his suspicions.

Need a few days.

[TonyMoonshine]

Scum-

Guardian

Neutral-

Elias
MoS
Oman
Skruffs
VitR

Town-

Thok

[TonyMoonshine]

mod:Could we have a tonymoonshine prod?

No.

[TonyMoonshine]

Again I am behind in this game. I'm trying hard to stay objective, but it pisses me off when Guardian has a page long post with several quotes with 2 or less words.

[TonyMoonshine]

Know what pisses me off? When people get annoyed by back and forth discussion and clarification, and when they say they are going contribute and never, ever get around to it....

Seriously, there were comments like 5 pages ago that I have been waiting for you to address, and you post every other day saying you will come and address them, and all we get is this.

I don't see the need to defend myself like you do. I think you're scum and you can keep waiting. If I ever do get around to posting, it will only be a recap of everything I have already stated.

[TonyMoonshine]

And if you get around to posting, you won't take in any new information?

I never said this, please don't twist my words around.

[TonyMoonshine]

Tony, how should we interpret your post 1144? I don't see how Guardian twisted your words at all.

Why don't you explain to me how he didn't twist my words around.

Also, please note Guardian is attempting to align himself with anyone that will listen.

[TonyMoonshine]

, and I've seen several instances where two consecutive posts by you contradict each other.

Point them out.

[TonyMoonshine]

Why should I comment on Oman/Romanus when neither of them are active?

We've now lost MoS. That's just great.

It's my understanding players are waiting on me to post why I think Guardian is scum. I have no new reasons and anything I would post would be a recap of things I've already said. There are plently of other story lines to comment on, but I don't have the time and can't keep up with the game. I never said I wouldn't take in new information. Guardian twisted my words around to make me look scummy.

Thok, I know you're sick of my reasons. I don't know why you are, you're not voting Guardian. Please recap your questions for me and I will try my best to comment on them.

Guardian, I still believe you are scum and don't care if you are waiting on me to comment on something

[TonyMoonshine]

Know what pisses me off? When people get annoyed by back and forth discussion and clarification, and when they say they are going contribute and never, ever get around to it....

Back and forth discussion, clarification, massive, sometimes pointless posts. You could easily get your point across while using less words. Way to scare off the replacements and drown out any useful information.

[TonyMoonshine]

I've completly lost any objectivity when it comes to Guardian. My judgment is clouded. I am no help to the town.

[TonyMoonshine]

Why should I comment on Oman/Romanus when neither of them are active?

Because there's a decent chance that Oman/Romanus will be lynched?
Because there's a decent chance that Oman/Romanus is scum?
Because there's at least one major confrontation between Oman/Romanus and Guardian, and you seem to think Guardian is likely scum?
Because if you ignore lurkers, you allow scum to hide among their midsts?
Because I want to see what you are thinking about with respect to various players in this game in order to assess your alignment?
Because I'd specifically like to hear your opinion on a player you haven't talked much about?

It's my understanding players are waiting on me to post why I think Guardian is scum. I have no new reasons and anything I would post would be a recap of things I've already said. There are plently of other story lines to comment on, but I don't have the time and can't keep up with the game. I never said I wouldn't take in new information. Guardian twisted my words around to make me look scummy.

Don't have time, or choose not to make time? What are the storylines you feel you would want to comment on?

Why are you worried about what you think others are waiting for you to post?

Thok, I know you're sick of my reasons. I don't know why you are, you're not voting Guardian. Please recap your questions for me and I will try my best to comment on them.

Your reasons for going after Guardian, as far as I can tell have been
1. His post 595, with some unexplained comment about a divide and conquer plan.
2. Guardian took more than a day to put up his case on IH.
3. Guardian was trying too much to look like a townie by defending Aimee
4. General complaints about Guardian trying to lead the town
5. *Currently left blank*

So, here's some relevant questions

a. I'd like to see you make a more precise explanation of what you think the above five statements mean and why you believe them to be scummy. I don't want to hear rhetoric from you, I want an actual visible thought process. I've left one blank as a bit of a test to you. (There may be multiple answers to the thing I've left blank, but there's one in particular that I have in mind.)

b. At the time you made accusation 3, Aimee was still alive and you were voting Aimee prior to your accusation. Why did you decide that Guardian was scum trying defend a townie (and not some other pair of alignments involving Aimee and Guardian)?

c. How is the Aimee-Guardian relationship any different from the relationship between you and Occult? [leading question]Were you trying to appear too townie by protecting him?[/leading question]

d. I'd like to see a clear explanation of what you feel Guardian was trying to accomplish with his plan and why we should see it as scummy. I don't want to hear some useless pop phrase like "divide and conquer".

e. I'd like to hear your thoughts about the other people on the Guardian wagon, and their arguments against Guardian.

Whew!

I'll try and get something posted tonight.

[TonyMoonshine]

Tony, if you do everything Thok asked, you had better answer my questions about IH.

nope

[TonyMoonshine]

Don't have time, or choose not to make time?

Wow. What a lame question. The game started April 5th and until recently, I've been one of the few keeping it alive. A few things have changed since then.

I am more busy.
I no longer have internet access at work.
It's difficult keeping up with the high number of replacements.
Guardian's constant spam is annoying. A great tatic if he is scum.

[TonyMoonshine]

ebwop

I am more busy.

I have more things going on.

[TonyMoonshine]

Don't have time, or choose not to make time?

Wow. What a lame question. The game started April 5th and until recently, I've been one of the few keeping it alive.

Come on man, lets not get delusional. Thats like me claiming to be the driving force in this game.

Oh, I'm sorry. I guess I was one of the MANY keeping it alive.

Get real.

[TonyMoonshine]

It's my understanding players are waiting on me to post why I think Guardian is scum. I have no new reasons and anything I would post would be a recap of things I've already said. There are plently of other story lines to comment on, but I don't have the time and can't keep up with the game. I never said I wouldn't take in new information. Guardian twisted my words around to make me look scummy.

Why are you worried about what you think others are waiting for you to post?

The above statement was in response to Guardian twisting my words around and my answer to your question in post 1150.

Tony, how should we interpret your post 1144? I don't see how Guardian twisted your words at all.

The truth is Guardian completly twisted my words around.

[TonyMoonshine]

Your reasons for going after Guardian, as far as I can tell have been
1. His post 595, with some unexplained comment about a divide and conquer plan.

What is there to explain? He tried to split the town into 2 camps with his camps goal of taking out the other. Why don't you find this scummy?

2. Guardian took more than a day to put up his case on IH.

He doesn't seem to have a problem posting a lengthy defense of himself, but when it came to his case against IH, it took a long time.

3. Guardian was trying too much to look like a townie by defending Aimee

This wouldn't be as scummy if we had roles like a cop.

4. General complaints about Guardian trying to lead the town

Mostly related to post 595.

[TonyMoonshine]

Don't have time, or choose not to make time?

Wow. What a lame question. The game started April 5th and until recently, I've been one of the few keeping it alive.

Come on man, lets not get delusional. Thats like me claiming to be the driving force in this game.

Wouldn't you be slighted offended if asked the same question?

[TonyMoonshine]

One instance does not a scum tell make.

Thanks, Yoda.

[TonyMoonshine]

unvote

vote: adel

[TonyMoonshine]

Tony, you have some explaining to do.

No.

How about you explain why Adel was voting you.

[TonyMoonshine]

My reasons for lynching Adel were mostly selfish. I wish to get this game over ASAP so I have more time for other things. I wasn't following the vote count until Mod posted last update. I realized I could hammer, but I didn't know how shitty of a spot it would put the town in. Before you ask, I would do it all over again.

Anyway, I've had a town vibe for IH ever since he did his reread. He put a lot of work into it and well, I just think he's town. Same with Thok. I'm not sure about everyone else, but I still think Guardian is Scum. And, I think others are starting to see that now. I wasn't able to my articulate my case against him and became frustrated.

I think this could be very simple. We just need to look at who voted who and work with that. I think someone posted a recap of who voted who. That should clear at least a couple people and we can let them lead.

[TonyMoonshine]

Tony, have anything interesting to say?

Look at everyones voting records.

[TonyMoonshine]

In other words, why should we look at voting records?

Because it's important. And, this doesn't need to be complicated. We should examine everyone's voting record and listen to those who have been lynched.

[TonyMoonshine]

@Tony, I had a very strong urge to reply to your "Look at the vote counts" post with a "NO U".

You should have. You would have got the same response.

If you think it's important, why aren't you trying to analyze the vote counts?

I don't think it's important, I know it's important. But, for whatever reason you don't. IH and Guardian continue to make this a lot more complicated than it needs to be. Why not keep it simple and look at the voting records?

Someone esle do it. I don't have time right now.

[TonyMoonshine]

Tony thats ridiculous. How come you never have time to do anything in this game?

It's not important to the game.

[TonyMoonshine]

Voting analysis didn't bring us anywhere in the last Nightless game.

I wasn't in the last or any Nightless game.

I'm a bit tired of waiting for something to happen.

Me too. And, I'm tired of people droping out but still playing in other games.

[TonyMoonshine]

but it's pretty obvious Tony is just cruising along trying to get the town off his back.

Cruising along? Sorry, I don't want to get in a back and fourth with you, and Guardian that will only drag the game on.

Off my back? I have how many votes right now?

You and Guardian are making this more complicated than it needs to be.

[TonyMoonshine]

Tony is very obviously unhelpful.

Ok, I will try and post something regarding voting records. It will be very simple and everyone can take it from there.

[TonyMoonshine]

My feelings right now are IH-Tony-VitaminR with Oman being a good fourth candidate.

What's it like knowing people drop out because of you?

[TonyMoonshine]

This statement makes me feel like you know that both IH and Guardian are protown, which you couldn't if you were town.

I'm annoyed with their never-ending back and forth. I feel like it's a waste of time and a distraction.

[TonyMoonshine]

I think at one point the majority thought Occult and MoS acted scummy. Both were lynched and both were town. I think Occult even admitted to acting scummy. Anyway, I think we need to see who took advantage of this.

Prelynch:

Who started the wagons?
Who jumped on and off??
Who hammered???

Postlynch:

Who said something like, "He acted scummy"?
Is there anything in common between the 2 lynches??

I feel this is important. I hope someone remembers without having to do a reread.

[TonyMoonshine]

Voting summary. Facts only.

Day 1 Occult

(Townie)

Page 16 Post 384.

IH
Adel
Guardian
Oman
Aimee
Thok
Vitamin R (Hammer)

Day 2 Deadline Lynch Yogurt Bandit

(Scum)

Page 22 Post 526.

Vitamin R
Skruffs
Adel
IH
Oman

Day 3 Deadline Lynch Aimee

(Townie)

Page 32 Post 788.

Adel
Vitamin R
Oman

Day 4 Adel

(Townie)

Page 50 Post 1238.

Vitamin R
Oman
Guardian
IH
Tony Moonshine (Hammer)

I've only covered who was lynched and who voted for them. I've provided page #'s and post #'s so people can easily review and see who others voted for. Also, make sure this is correct. It's late, I'm tired and could have easily made a mistake.

[TonyMoonshine]

But look at how recently Tony has refused to comment in any way about IH

This is not true. I really dislike how you don't care who people vote for as long as it's not you.

Post 1266

Anyway, I've had a town vibe for IH ever since he did his reread. He put a lot of work into it and well, I just think he's town.

[TonyMoonshine]

Also, did you not realize that Skruffs did the exact same thing you just did in posting the lynch vote counts?

Yes, I know, but I don't think enough time was spent examining his post. With my recap I included page and post #'s so it will be easy for people to review. I think it's wrong for people to discredit this information because of how another game turned out. Also, I posted only facts and plan to post my thoughts when I have more time.

Occult- IH, mustafa15, Battle Mage, Romanus, Aimee, MissMoo, VitaminR


Occult- IH, mustafa15, (Guardian), (Oman), Aimee, (Thok), VitaminR
YogurtBandit- VitaminR, Skruffs, mustafa15, IH, (Oman)
Aimee- mustafa15, VitaminR, (Oman)
Adel (5) - VitaminR, Oman, Guardian, IH, TonyMoonshine

VitaminR and Oman have been on all four lynches.
IH has been on all three non-deadline lynches.
Guardian : 2/3 townie lynches, not scum's

Note Oman's biased linking to vitamin yesterday.
Adel unfortunately acted pretty scummy, it's hard to blame townies for voting her.

Time to look at second place vote-runners.

[TonyMoonshine]

Tony, you think IH is town? I missed it.

WHAT? How did you miss something you quoted and responded to?

Anyway, I've had a town vibe for IH ever since he did his reread. He put a lot of work into it and well, I just think he's town. Same with Thok. I'm not sure about everyone else, but I still think Guardian is Scum.

What? So my pbpa of day one didn't take effort!?!? You are blatantly being inconsistent here.

[TonyMoonshine]

Checking in. Will post more soon.

[TonyMoonshine]

Wow. Posts like that (Tony's 1397) make my mind explode.

What?

A lot of people are calling for me to drop the IH persistence.

The never-ending back and forth didn't seem to be going anywhere. It was doing more harm to the game and town more than it was helping.

why not try and push a case on someone you believe to be scum?

Exactly, so why did you switch your vote if you believe this?

Elias will probably complain about me moving my vote or whatnot, even though I have not been at all vote hoppy all game as Elias claims....

Wow. You're on the defensive before being attacked. This to me is very scummy.

[TonyMoonshine]

vote: Guardian

Let's get this going.

[TonyMoonshine]

Why you should vote Guardian.

- He's more worried about defending himself than finding scum.
- His attempt to split the town into 2 groups. I think it was post 595.
- His latest slip.

I dislike how it's become scummy to bring up post 595. The same will happen with his latest slip. Time will go by and players will forget. If we lynch him and he's town, it's still his fault. His lengthy back and forth and spam have harmed the game and town a great deal. I'm not the only one frustrated with his play style.

He needs to die.

[TonyMoonshine]

Hey Tony, I asked you a bunch of questions in post 1231, which you've seemed to have ignored (partially by hammering Adel). Could you go and try to answer them. In particular, I was you to answer the ones about what you think Guardian's 595 means.

I think he was trying to:

A. appear protown, and
B. split the town (divide and conquer)

I think it's just as scummy as John asking about night kills.

[TonyMoonshine]

About 1231, I don't know.

Pretend for a mintue you believe he is scum. I would compare voting records with who's on his list and which group.

I think I will do this when I have time.

[TonyMoonshine]

I have many better things to be doing.

I never commented on the IH/Guardian back and forth because, unless you checked the thread 3 times a day, there was no way you could stay up to date. The same is now happening with Elias and Guardian.

People need to stop stalling. We have 50+ pages of information.

Mod: Please set a deadline.

When this game started in April I didn't think we would still be playing in September.

Confirm vote: Guardian

[TonyMoonshine]

Tony promises reasons for his suspicions on Guardian in Post 914; never provides them.

Lies.

Says he’ll answer Thok’s questions in 1163; never does.

More lies.

He hammers Adel. Scumtastic. Still hasn’t explained it.

All lies. Go back and read my posts. My answers were brief, but I did address everything.

[TonyMoonshine]

Can you please direct me to the posts? I must have just missed them, and would appreciate you giving me post #'s.

And... can you explain your hammer? kthnx.

Nope.

I still want to post something about voting records and that's going to take priority. Next time make sure your statments are facts and not BS.

Very scummy.

fos: Satael

[TonyMoonshine]

ebwop

statements

[TonyMoonshine]

Thok and Sat, repost your questions and I will either answer them or provide post #'s with my answers. Thok, do not ask me to write a novel this time.

I'm going to look more in depth at voting records and post something. Also, I would like the chance to leave my list of scum/town before I am lynched. I have time to work on this tonight (late Wed)

[TonyMoonshine]

Set, I was frustraded in posts 108 and 136 over the # number of drop outs. You weren't in the game at that point and I don't think you have a right to comment on them.

[TonyMoonshine]

Guardian has made many threats and I ignore them.

I hammered to speed things up. The game started in April, we have over 60 pages and 1400 posts. We need players to make decisions not more information. Also, players I had a protown vibe for were on the wagon.

I think Scruffs, Vitr and myself have commented on the length of the game and their commitment. Long back and forths are dragging the game on and we're not getting any useful information. This is why I won't respond to Guardian's posts. What's the point?

[TonyMoonshine]

Set, posts 81 and 83 are general game questions. I don't know what you want me to say about post 114. As for post 115, everyone at some point in this game has "laid low" I tried several times prior to post 115 to spark discussion, but it didn't work. You see these posts as scummy and I see them as a new player trying to inject himself into the game.

[TonyMoonshine]

I agree with these last two votes. I think I'm going to be adding my vote to this wagon too soon.

I dislike this. Does this help the town or just cover your own butt? I think you are town, so what's the point in showing scum your hand?

[TonyMoonshine]

Wait. I just reviewed post 1302. Vitr has lynched 3 townies and 1 scum. For some reason I thought he had a better voting record. And, the scum he lynched was John who was extremly scummy. I take back what I said in the previous post.

mfos: vitr

[TonyMoonshine]

Ok, it's not looking good for me. I can see how my frustration can be seen as scummy play. If I'm lynched, hopefully it will shed some light on the game. Before the deadline, (or 5 votes) I will answer any questions and leave my list of who I think is town and scum.

[TonyMoonshine]

I agree with these last two votes. I think I'm going to be adding my vote to this wagon too soon.

I dislike this. Does this help the town or just cover your own butt? Why tell everyone your plan?

I think for everyones sake you should answer this.

[TonyMoonshine]

b. At the time you made accusation 3, Aimee was still alive and you were voting Aimee prior to your accusation. Why did you decide that Guardian was scum trying defend a townie (and not some other pair of alignments involving Aimee and Guardian)?

c. How is the Aimee-Guardian relationship any different from the relationship between you and Occult? [leading question]Were you trying to appear too townie by protecting him?[/leading question]

d. I'd like to see a clear explanation of what you feel Guardian was trying to accomplish with his plan and why we should see it as scummy. I don't want to hear some useless pop phrase like "divide and conquer".

e. I'd like to hear your thoughts about the other people on the Guardian wagon, and their arguments against Guardian.

b. I didn't see any benefit for Guardian to defend Aimee assuming Guardian is town. It's one of many examples where I feel Guardian has gone over the top to appear town. He's more worried about what others think of him than finding scum.

c. I don't remember "protecting" Occult. I remember saying we're more likely to lynch a townie than scum on day 1 so let's make sure we explore more options. Lynching a townie day 1 is only helpful when it provides useful information.

d. Again, this is yet another example of Guardian working overtime to appear town. Assuming he's scum, if he was able to pull of his plan he could manipulate those on his side.

e. Prior to post 595 Guardian has a lot of information on where Elias, Romanus (Set) and Vitr stand. Let's assume all 3 or at least 2 are town, he can pretend to share the same suspicions and together they could vote people off. Rom's (Set) response seems to stand out the most becuase he was very adamant about having nothing to do with it. He could have said "no thanks" , but instead took a strong stance against it. Elias at the time seemed to have a healthy suspicion of everyone. And, I'm not sure if Vitr commented on it. I was also adamant against his plan because I did not want to be run over by the coalition of the manipulated.

[TonyMoonshine]

Tony is just lurking again, which I think is the last thing a pro-Town player would do this close to a deadline when he has the most votes.

I'm not lurking.

I am honestly ready for my part in the game to be over. I think a lot of good information has come out in the past week and plan to recap everything and also provide a list of who I think is town and scum.

[TonyMoonshine]

So how many scum do you think Guardian included in his suggested final group of 4?

I don't know. I dislike how you try and pressure me for answers to difficult questions. What are your thoughts on Guardian's plans? Have you ever been asked or commented on them? Why don't you find it scummy? I don't care what they are, but do you have any other reasons to find me scummy other than my stance on Guardian?

Depending on your answer to the preveious question, how do you think Guardian is going to handle the final 4 if he is scum?

Considering he puts a lot of time into this game I would say he had at least 1 other scum on board. Scum would win via tie.

What suggests that this is a scum "divide and conquer plan" as opposed to a townie attempt to lynch to a group of people that he feels is trustworthy?

Because he might be wrong about those he feels are trustworthy. How many games have you played and felt someone was trustworthy only to find out you were wrong? Have you been in a game where someone has had a similar plan? 3 people seems like a lot to be able to trust. I could see trusting maybe 1 person.

People seem too certain that Guardian's plan is evil, and don't seem to want to explain why it's evil as opposed to merely mislead. My personal feeling is that it's just a plan, and my read on Guardian is that it's a plan he'd be willing to suggest independent of his alignment.?

Ok, this answers one of my above questions. I'm not too certain about anything, but I still

think

Guardian is scum.

[TonyMoonshine]

I'd like to hear more from Elias, VitR and Skruffs before the deadline.

[TonyMoonshine]

I'm trying to get you to answer difficult questions because I feel that they'll give me a better read on you. God forbid that you could actually be asked to participate in this game.

I've been participating, but don't have the time to get in depth enough to satisfy you. Players have taken advantage of my unwilliness to defend myself when I really think it's a waste of time. I'd rather focus on who I think is scum than answer difficult questions about someone elses motives. But, you are right, I did focus too much on Guardian and was stubborn in considering others. A problem I had in both of my previous games.

That's why one of the reason I was pushing for Romanus/Oman (I felt that his jump onto Guardian was much too blatant).

Did you already post this or just now after I commented on it? If you already did post this suspicion, please provide a post #.

[TonyMoonshine]

Setael, besides myself who do you think are scum? Maybe you have already posted this, but there has been a lot of vote jumping and I want you to be clear on this. I ask because you are about to be lynched and the information will be helpful for tomorrow.

My vote stands.

[TonyMoonshine]

Also, in a Nightless game, it is important to bus your buddies as scum.

If this is true, you still have a strike against you with voting records. I think you have been on every lynch.

[TonyMoonshine]

I mean you can try to blindly ignore a fact, but whatever.

IH, you have posted several times that I'm the best lynch for today with little or no reason. You seem to do this when someone else brings up my name. I really dislike this. Has anyone brought up a IH/Guardian pairing?

fos: IH

[TonyMoonshine]

I'll post something tonight.

[TonyMoonshine]

Thok, I think there has been 2 - 3 attempts to wagon Guardian but they always seem to fail. Why is this? When I have more time I am going to look into this. I know without looking at least once you voted and unvoted.

IH and Guardian are brought up a lot. Guardian has been after IH for several game days now but neither get lynched.

[TonyMoonshine]

Tony: Have you taken a look at the vote counts yet? Or you planning on avoiding that responsibility?

I like your use of the word

avoiding

to make it look negative. I'll get to it. If there is anything regarding votes you would like to add feel free.

You voted for Guardian, right? Is there any point in continuing your back and forth with him? He's going to have a response for everything you bring up and I think it, a. it drags the game on, and b. gets in the way of useful information.

We need to see more from Skruffs, Vitr, IH and Elias.

[TonyMoonshine]

Sorry Skruffs. I missed your lengthy post.

[TonyMoonshine]

Pretty sure Guardian is only at lynch -2 (me and IH), but I want to

unvote

anyways for the moment.

This is becoming a trend. Start a wagon on Guardian and before it gets to lynch -1 unvote.

Why do you do this?

[TonyMoonshine]

Thok, what do you think of IH's case against Guardian? Do you feel he has good arguments?

Post 1668 you tell us not to worry about Guardian and move on. In the very next post you want us to comment on IH's case against Guardian.

Which is it?

Quick answer: I think IH's case against Guardian is either a long OMGUS or 2 scum working together to confuse the town.

[TonyMoonshine]

I got more of a "Tony is trying to push the Guardian wagon without getting his hands dirty by voting" vibe.

Right, I was waiting for Guardian to get to lynch -1 so I could hammer. I was afraid if I voted someone else would remove their vote. I was most worried about Thok. This is definitly a trend. Thok is part of the Guardian wagon early but unvotes and the wagon falls apart. Either he's a townie playin it way too safe or he's scum with Guardian.

[TonyMoonshine]

Or you are scum and would love to hammer me like you hammered Adel....

It's well known your ONLY goal in this game it to stay alive no matter what.

[TonyMoonshine]

that's complete BS, if I have an "ONLY goal in the game" other than lynching scum, it is to get IH lynched...

fos: Tony

again...

It's not BS. At least twice now you have been close to lynch and both times you cried and pleaded with everyone not to vote you. You could have spent the time helping the town but were too selfish to do so. I vaguely remeber Occult admitting he played bad but instead of begging those not to vote him, he focused his time on getting everyone to post useful information for the next day.

[TonyMoonshine]

Also, to say Guardian has been begging people not to lynch him is a gross overstatement.

Ummm... No. I remember Guardian saying he would cry if he was lynched.

[TonyMoonshine]

I dislike post 1725. If you think both people are town but Guardian is a problem than why not vote Guardian? Voting either doesn't make sense. It's like giving scum a free pass.

I think everyone has done something scummy today. I'm not sure what to think right now.

[TonyMoonshine]

I was wrong about Romanus. Why does the foursome thing look badly on me? He attacked the living crap out of me for it.

Right, and Thok pointed out that Romanus was scummy because of his overreaction. Why would he act like this? Maybe it's was because you are his partner and it was a stupid plan.

[TonyMoonshine]

Ummm... What is this the Guardian lovefest? Why are people defending Guardian to such great lenghts when he only has 1 vote? Guardian has not held up calm under pressure. When he's close to lynch he cries and begs to live. This is fact.

[TonyMoonshine]

And, it's great that some don't have time to post often enough but have time to review Guardian's previous games. I have a hard time believing that enought time could have been spent to get a good read on his play style and therefore will not consider it as a town tell.

[TonyMoonshine]

Tony, how were you acting when you were close to lynch? Don't be hypocritical

vote Skruffs

Prove that I am a hypocrite and don't just say it. Please provide post #'s. Otherwise take it back.

[TonyMoonshine]

And why so grumpy that town is starting to rule out suspects?

Because I haven't ruled out Guardian.

[TonyMoonshine]

Ok, it's not looking good for me. I can see how my frustration can be seen as scummy play. If I'm lynched, hopefully it will shed some light on the game. Before the deadline, (or 5 votes) I will answer any questions and leave my list of who I think is town and scum.

You never left your list- you reumed an attack on vitr. Wasn't as desperate as guardian but there's definitely a plaintive cry for help in it. And you know what? That's okay.

Who was on that wagon, btw?

Before I could leave my list my wagon had crumbled. And, not because of anything I said but the actions of others. I'm not going to show everyone my hand because I believe it benefits scum more than town. I've already called out vitr for doing this. Also, my furstration regarded Guardian's lengthy posts and the high # of drop outs. Regarding my attack on vitr, I'd rather be attacking than defending. It seems like Guardian has spent a lot of time on the defensive or providing a reason for his actions.

unvote

My previous vote was more out of anger and not clear thinking. I'm not sure where I want it right now.

I don't understand your last question.

[TonyMoonshine]

I will try and get something posted more in depth tonight.

[TonyMoonshine]

So I started off day 1 and day 2 by bussing a player. I laid low and didn't help town mislynch aimee or mustafa. I then started up a new wagon on my other partner oman/setael, and got a lynch on them when I *could* have joined them in voting you, for apparently a mislynch, which would have put us at lylo.

Is this accurate? If so, I find it hard to believe Skruffs could be scum.

[TonyMoonshine]

Tony - You were assumign you would be hammered, when you gave out the "If I die here's my list" type of thing, which you didn't give out because you thought it would help the scum(?). Based on who was on your wagon at that point, and who wasn't, who did you feel was going to hammer you?

I was up against a deadline not a hammer. So, to answer your question, I wasn't thinking about who was going to hammer.

[TonyMoonshine]

Do people think Guardian has been town-helpful ? Meaning has he been helpful to the town without helping himself.

I'd like player's thoughts on this.

[TonyMoonshine]

3 days until deadline?

[TonyMoonshine]

I'm sorry. I meant to post last night, but fell asleep early. My vote would have been on Guardian or Thok, but I was still undecided. At least twice now Thok has voted Guardian early and unvoted before Guardian could be lynched. I think this has been brought up before, but I don't recall his explanation. And, don't really care at this point.

Fos: Guardian and Thok

[TonyMoonshine]

I will try and get something posted late Wed night or Thur afternoon.

[TonyMoonshine]

Skruffs:

Purporting to "know" that I am not sorry for my actions is ridiculous, as I am, in fact, sorry....

I don't think you spent enough time considering others. I think if you were town you would maybe reconsider me but almost immediatly you voted me. Your actions seem more consistent with being scum. I think if you were sorry about lynching IH you would reconsider me. But, I don't believe you are sorry and I think it's exactly what you wanted.

[TonyMoonshine]

I haven't voted yet.

Maybe Setael voted me because it was her best chance to stay alive. Correct me if I'm worng, but I think Vitr, Guardian, Thok and IH were suspicious of me.

I think we need to keep things simple. Guardian got IH (town) lynched.

I'd also like to know more about this Romanus/Vitr link. Is there a post # I can check out?

[TonyMoonshine]

I'm also curious where you think Tony has expressed suspicions of VitR.

Hey, don't dodge a question by deflecting pressure my way.

[TonyMoonshine]

I'm also curious where you think Tony has expressed suspicions of VitR.

Hey, don't dodge a question by deflecting pressure my way.

What question do you think I am dodging?

I should have wrote...Don't dodge pressure by deflecting it my way.

[TonyMoonshine]

If you have expressed suspicions of Vitr, show post #'s.

[TonyMoonshine]

Thok, why again did you vote and unvote Guardian twice? Both times derailing his wagon?

[TonyMoonshine]

Posts that suggest me being suspicious of VitR include 1807, 1821, and 1834. I also said in post 1851 that I might have voted VitR at 2-2 at the deadline.

You pulled me into the conversation when all you had to do was provide post #'s and it would have settled it. If anyone is not reading the game it's Guardian for making the false statment in the first place.

Yes, I think it's very scummy regarding your voting record with Guardian. Both times it was early in the day and both times Guardian got
off the hook because of you. Had you not changed your mind (twice) Guardian would probably be lynched and IH would most likely be alive. I don't know for sure Guardian is scum, but we know for sure what IH was.

Why do you think Guardian is town? At least twice he has slipped and seemed to be caught red handed only to somehow get out of it. How is Guardian's voting record? Since you bring mine up. I bet his is not good.

Really... What have you done?

The bottom lin is you talk a big game but haven't helped the town.

[TonyMoonshine]

Guardian reminds me of a sleazy used car salesman. He's selling you a lemon. Don't buy it. He's the first one patting himself on the back after someone says he's protown. Remember the last lemon he sold you? It was IH and he was town. I'm sure Guardian told us IH acted scummy. Well, talented scum can manipulate anyone and make them appear scummy.

Who asked Guardian if he would vote for himself if IH was town and what was Guardian's response?